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#2893905 - 12/04/17 11:11 AM Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
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I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations with regard to splits/layers and core effects assignments, but somehow missed the memo about the rotary speaker model being universal, per Registration. So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed, and that there weren't any software updates planned - not even for the VR-730, for which I would've thought there might be something, but...Nada. Too bad, as it's a great sounding instrument.

Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars), it appears the choices are limited; and especially as I want the instrument to be under 30 lbs. So, once again the Stage 3 Compact idea rises to the top. Didn't want to spend that much, as I already have an SK-1 73 to cover the top tier on dual-keyboard gigs. But the Stage 3 does do a lot, and extremely well at that.

Additional ideas, thoughts, or a miraculous work-around for the VR are more than welcome. But I have a feeling I'll be getting a RA from Sweetwater soon, and ordering an NS3 Compact.
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#2893910 - 12/04/17 11:37 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
J. Dan Offline
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Pan piano left, organ right, and use a vent? Yeah, probably not. That seems like a major oversight.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2893912 - 12/04/17 12:13 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
mate stubb Offline
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#2893913 - 12/04/17 12:14 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
Adan Offline
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Thanks for sharing. That's a dealbreaker for me too. And for many, I would imagine.
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#2893922 - 12/04/17 12:45 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Adan]
WesG Offline
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Yeah. That's pretty damn annoying.

FWIW you can't use the pan solution, either. The best I can think of would be to use an external piano module and feed it back into the VR09's aux in port.

That would suck less. Especially if the piano module were small and sounded great.

I have a VR09 right now which is indispensible in my rig, but I keep having to drag along a CP4 to make up for some of its limitations. If it wasn't for this split issue, I MIGHT be able to get by with only a VR-730.

Which reminds me - the other issue with splits is that things like filter cutoff and resonance are also global.

My current workaround is to use vibrato instead of Leslie. That's good enough for the odd song in a rehearsal. Not a gig.

Wes
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
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#2893927 - 12/04/17 01:05 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Hey Hey Hey.....

Just wait three years. That's how long it took Roland to update the FA06/08 with new Firmware to give us some control back as a master keyboard wink
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#2893931 - 12/04/17 01:17 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
The Real MC Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations


RECENT? The VR-760 - released over ten years ago - had a similar limitation. Piano, organ, synth, & polysynth all go out the same stereo outputs. If I wanted to forego the onboard leslie simulator and route only the organ through a leslie or the simulator of my choice, can't be done without the piano and synth sounds.

Shame, because it was a decent clonewheel.

Deal killer then. Over TEN years ago, and Roland STILL don't get it. Given the track record of the 760, don't expect a fix for the 730. facepalm

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#2893940 - 12/04/17 02:24 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars), it appears the choices are limited; and especially as I want the instrument to be under 30 lbs. So, once again the Stage 3 Compact idea rises to the top.

Yup. The only other good choice I can think of is Kurzweil Artis7, which psychologically becomes more clonewheel-like if you use OBDave's replacement faders caps that make the sliders look like drawbars. A step down from that, the NE5D and FA-07 would be possibilities, with some additional limitations. NE5D only splits a max of two sounds, one of which must be a piano or an organ. FA-07 doesn't have real-time drawbar control (you use a menu to adjust the drawbar levels), unless you have OBDave's discontinued drawbar module, though there's also a 3rd-party app that lets you adjust them via iPad touchscreen. For piano playing, the FA-07 has the weakest action of the bunch, due to the increased resistance in the rear section of the keys. The VR has so much potential, but with a handful of major irritations that they don't seem likely to fix at this point.

Originally Posted By: The Real MC
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations


RECENT? The VR-760 - released over ten years ago - had a similar limitation. Piano, organ, synth, & polysynth all go out the same stereo outputs. If I wanted to forego the onboard leslie simulator and route only the organ through a leslie or the simulator of my choice, can't be done without the piano and synth sounds.

That's a different limitation than what Allan is talking about, but yes, the VR09/VR730 have that one too. There's only the single set of outs, and you can't pan different sounds to different sides. While each introduced some useful new additions, overall, I'd say the VR760 was more flexible than the VR700, and the VR700 was more flexible than the VR09/VR730. The newer ones are lighter and cheaper, though.
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#2893942 - 12/04/17 02:28 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Well, seeing the back panel and immediately noticing just R/L Mono and no sub/assignable out(s) it was definitely a clue that this is really just the VR-09. These days I suppose we have to be thankful there's still 5 pin midi io, unfortunately.

With the push to put out the 09b firmware and the 730 this seems to be just enough to keep Roland present in this little organ-centric do it all segment but not enough effort to duke it out with the pricing tier up. If Roland hadn't sold so many VR-09's they may have started to look for ways to improve but apparently this issue doesn't matter to enough of us. idk
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#2893951 - 12/04/17 03:06 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: ElmerJFudd]
WesG Offline
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At least they fixed the percussion ping routing. It goes around the V/C now.
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
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#2893957 - 12/04/17 04:06 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
AnotherScott Offline
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Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
If Roland hadn't sold so many VR-09's they may have started to look for ways to improve but apparently this issue doesn't matter to enough of us. idk

Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed, and that there weren't any software updates planned - not even for the VR-730

It's interesting that apparently the VR09 was a sufficiently successful product that they were prompted to do a VR730, yet seemingly not enough to address so many of the limitations. Maybe the hardware design precludes implementation of some of what we'd like to see, but it's hard to imagine that some of these things were really impossible, like being able to use the same foot switch for rotary or sustain on a registration-by-registration or sound-by-sound basis (instead of only a single global setting), or being able to select a Registration via MIDI, etc.
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#2893958 - 12/04/17 04:07 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
AnotherScott Offline
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Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: WesG
At least they fixed the percussion ping routing. It goes around the V/C now.

Cool, I didn't know about that fix. Is that only for the VR-730, or is it fixed by installing the newest update into the VR-09 as well?
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#2893985 - 12/04/17 06:32 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
The_Star_Guy Offline
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Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 194
Loc: Ann Arbor, Michigan
The percussion fix was mentioned in the release notes for the v1.12 V-Combo System Program update. I had already asked in a different thread if someone else had had a chance to confirm this yet. Glad WesG confirmed that this was indeed fixed.


Edited by The_Star_Guy (12/05/17 03:57 AM)
Edit Reason: nomemclature correction
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#2894017 - 12/05/17 04:42 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
stevie b Offline
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Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 550
Loc: Virginia
Quote:
RECENT? The VR-760 - released over ten years ago - had a similar limitation. Piano, organ, synth, & polysynth all go out the same stereo outputs. If I wanted to forego the onboard leslie simulator and route only the organ through a leslie or the simulator of my choice, can't be done without the piano and synth sounds.


Seems they have actually gone backward on UI features.

I still have a VR760 and although it does not have separate output routing, It can be split or layered among the three sound engines.
And leslie effects are only applied to the organ section.
It also has an awesome keybed.

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#2894019 - 12/05/17 04:45 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
The_Star_Guy Offline
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Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 194
Loc: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Originally Posted By: allan_evett

Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars.

Additional ideas, thoughts, or a miraculous work-around for the VR are more than welcome. But I have a feeling I'll be getting a RA from Sweetwater soon, and ordering an NS3 Compact.


Allan, I am curious about just how well the USB-MIDI control functions of the VR-Combo series function? Do you have or use an iPad capable of running something like Korg Module? Something like that might possibly allow you to still keep the travel package simple and lightweight, and yet maintain the flexibility that you need? And which version of the V-Combo firmware are you running?
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#2894025 - 12/05/17 05:21 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4001
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations with regard to splits/layers and core effects assignments, but somehow missed the memo about the rotary speaker model being universal, per Registration. So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed, and that there weren't any software updates planned - not even for the VR-730, for which I would've thought there might be something, but...Nada. Too bad, as it's a great sounding instrument.

Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars), it appears the choices are limited; and especially as I want the instrument to be under 30 lbs. So, once again the Stage 3 Compact idea rises to the top. Didn't want to spend that much, as I already have an SK-1 73 to cover the top tier on dual-keyboard gigs. But the Stage 3 does do a lot, and extremely well at that.

Additional ideas, thoughts, or a miraculous work-around for the VR are more than welcome. But I have a feeling I'll be getting a RA from Sweetwater soon, and ordering an NS3 Compact.


Do you need the synth part of the stage? If not, consider the Electro 5. Cheaper and has the same organ and pianos. The sample player, while limited, is fine for pad type stuff as you can adjust the attack and release and also get some filter control thru velocity.
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#2894028 - 12/05/17 05:40 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: stevie b]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: stevie b
Seems they have actually gone backward on UI features.

I still have a VR760 and although it does not have separate output routing, It can be split or layered among the three sound engines.

One thing they have improved since then, though, is that you can do a split/layer between any two sounds. On the VR760, any time you split or layer, one of the sounds would have to be a piano or organ.
_________________________
Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2894034 - 12/05/17 06:13 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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This has been a common complaint since the VR09 was first released, and a major reason I don't have one.
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#2894036 - 12/05/17 06:31 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
kenheeter Offline
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Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 114
Alan, I have a Stage 2 Compact that I might sell. Please PM me if you're interested. Thanks, Ken

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#2894041 - 12/05/17 07:05 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
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Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: stevie b
Seems they have actually gone backward on UI features.

I still have a VR760 and although it does not have separate output routing, It can be split or layered among the three sound engines.

One thing they have improved since then, though, is that you can do a split/layer between any two sounds. On the VR760, any time you split or layer, one of the sounds would have to be a piano or organ.

You can split between two non-organ sounds on the VR-700. I donít remember about layers, Iíd need to check that.
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#2894044 - 12/05/17 07:11 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mighty Ferguson
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

One thing they have improved since then, though, is that you can do a split/layer between any two sounds. On the VR760, any time you split or layer, one of the sounds would have to be a piano or organ.

You can split between two non-organ sounds on the VR-700.

Correct, that was one of the improvements from the VR760 to the VR700. Though a number of features were lost in that transition as well.
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Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2894092 - 12/05/17 11:49 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
mountainjammer Offline
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Registered: 12/21/13
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Any idea if the drawbars and other controls transmit CC? I have an HX3 which would solve the organ sound and Leslie output problems, but if I had to hook up drawbars too, it is starting to defeat its purpose as a convenient all-in-one.

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#2894099 - 12/05/17 11:59 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mountainjammer]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
On the VR-730? I'm 99.99% sure they transmit sysex but not CC.
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894101 - 12/05/17 12:04 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
To B3 Online   content
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Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 802
If you split a piano with organ, the piano does not get "leslied". It's when you layer them that it happens... With splits, the lower part does not get any of the tone/compressor/mfx assignements... which is bad too... Hope you be able to assign them via menu, per patch in a future update...

Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations with regard to splits/layers and core effects assignments, but somehow missed the memo about the rotary speaker model being universal, per Registration. So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed, and that there weren't any software updates planned - not even for the VR-730, for which I would've thought there might be something, but...Nada. Too bad, as it's a great sounding instrument.

Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars), it appears the choices are limited; and especially as I want the instrument to be under 30 lbs. So, once again the Stage 3 Compact idea rises to the top. Didn't want to spend that much, as I already have an SK-1 73 to cover the top tier on dual-keyboard gigs. But the Stage 3 does do a lot, and extremely well at that.

Additional ideas, thoughts, or a miraculous work-around for the VR are more than welcome. But I have a feeling I'll be getting a RA from Sweetwater soon, and ordering an NS3 Compact.
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#2894109 - 12/05/17 12:48 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: To B3]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
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Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: To B3
If you split a piano with organ, the piano does not get "leslied". It's when you layer them that it happens... With splits, the lower part does not get any of the tone/compressor/mfx assignements... which is bad too... Hope you be able to assign them via menu, per patch in a future update...


I'm curious as to how you did that on the VR-730 (or VR-09). I followed the instructions for creating a split, with organ on the lower tone, and piano on the upper tone; then reversed that; I also set up a piano-organ layer. In all instances both tones were processed by the rotary speaker effect when it was toggled on, then not processed when toggled off. Two different Roland reps confirmed that the rotary effect is universal to all sounds when toggled on. If they and I both missed something, and the problem is only with layers, I'd like to see the workaround. Other than the split / universal rotary problem, the VR-730 was a great fit.
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#2894131 - 12/05/17 02:30 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Maybe he used the MFX knob rotary sim?
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894137 - 12/05/17 02:46 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
J. Dan Offline
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From the manual, it appears that the rotary effect is only applied to the organ in split mode unless the organ is assigned to the lower split.

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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894139 - 12/05/17 02:48 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
stoken6 Offline
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I remember Craig McDonald commenting that his VR09/controller (KX88 I think) combo, set to organ-over-piano would "play the blues all night" (those are the words in my memory, I might have misremembered the exact wording, but the sense is there).

If you can't bypass Leslie on the piano part, that's just plain stupid. It's like... I dunno, not being able to set sustain pedal functionality per patch, or routing C/V through the leslie sim, or not being able to pan outputs, or not being able to load/save individual patches, or providing a +1 button but no -1, or ... well I'm sure you can think of something.

Cheers, Mike.


Edited by stoken6 (12/05/17 02:49 PM)
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#2894146 - 12/05/17 03:09 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: stoken6]
WesG Offline
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I don't know if you're trying to be smart or what, but

- not being able to set sustain pedal functionality per patch was addressed in firmware 1.12 (note - have not tested this personally yet)
- routing C/V through the leslie sim is something every real organ and every clonewheel I'm aware of does. How do you think a B3 works? There is typically only one output device, a Leslie, and there is no output path from the AO-28 which does not include C/V when it is in used
- not being able to load/save individual patches was addressed in firmware 1.03

Wes
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894174 - 12/05/17 06:07 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
From the manual, it appears that the rotary effect is only applied to the organ in split mode unless the organ is assigned to the lower split.



Hmm....If that's the case, then I could only have a separate, rotary-based organ in the upper - RH - voice of a split. Unfortunately, the splits I set up with organ need to have organ on the left (lower) part. That way, Iím holding basic, comped chords on organ with my LH, and using my RH to cover the more involved piano and synth parts.
_________________________
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#2894177 - 12/05/17 06:22 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Hmm....If that's the case, then I could only have a separate, rotary-based organ in the upper - RH - voice of a split. Unfortunately, the splits I set up with organ need to have organ on the left (lower) part. That way, Iím holding basic, comped chords on organ with my LH, and using my RH to cover the more involved piano and synth parts.


Turn the keyboard around and learn to play it backwards. poke grin


Edited by J. Dan (12/05/17 06:24 PM)
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894198 - 12/05/17 09:01 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
allan_evett Offline
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Originally Posted By: J. Dan
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Hmm....If that's the case, then I could only have a separate, rotary-based organ in the upper - RH - voice of a split. Unfortunately, the splits I set up with organ need to have organ on the left (lower) part. That way, Iím holding basic, comped chords on organ with my LH, and using my RH to cover the more involved piano and synth parts.


Turn the keyboard around and learn to play it backwards. poke grin


laugh Or develop insane crosshand technique..
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#2894210 - 12/05/17 11:56 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: stoken6]
stoken6 Offline
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Originally Posted By: WesG
I don't know if you're trying to be smart or what


I was (well, trying to be humourous), and of course I failed. I wrote
Originally Posted By: stoken6
routing C/V through the leslie sim
when I should have written "route percussion through the C/V"

Which of course is also fixed.

I guess Roland have been addressing more on this board than I realised.

Can you choose whether the pedal controls piano-sustain, sim-speed, both, or none - on a patch-by-patch basis?

Cheers, Mike.
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#2894218 - 12/06/17 03:07 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
TomKittel Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed,


That's not true... at least not with my VR09 OS 1.12. There is NO leslie on the piano when a piano/organ split is created.

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#2894220 - 12/06/17 03:54 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: TomKittel]
Legatoboy Online   content
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I gigged my VR09 with my Yamaha CP50 and MIDIED to the
Roland piano that I played from the 50 an played organ on the VR on the top tier w/ Leslie only on the Roland Organ....did take me some time to figure that out..I did it with the Channel assignments in the SETUP I believe....can't remember for sure, the VR has been gone for awhile!
I sold my VR for a NE5 BTW!


Edited by Legatoboy (12/06/17 03:56 AM)
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#2894239 - 12/06/17 07:16 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: TomKittel]
allan_evett Offline
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Originally Posted By: TomKittel
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed,


That's not true... at least not with my VR09 OS 1.12. There is NO leslie on the piano when a piano/organ split is created.


From the VR-730 / VR-09b Reference Guide:

"If youíre playing two sounds (split or dual) (p. 28), the settings will determine which sound is affected.
When using Dual: The same effects will apply to both sounds.
When using Split: The effects will be applied only to the upper part (except for reverb). However if youíve assigned organ sound to the lower part, the same effects will apply to all parts."

This is the crux of the issue, as I have several instances of Registrations with organ - lower, piano/ep/synth - upper to be programmed. And I've confirmed that there is no fix in the works, as Roland copied the internal design of the VR-09 forward into the VR-730. Though there were some additional sounds added in the new model, I was told the core VR engine simply doesn't have the 'horsepower' to include completely separate effects assignments for upper/lower tones.

So, other options in a 73/76 key, compact instrument: The new Vox Continental has the sounds, and some very cool features, but doesn't split - at least not in the way needed for my application. Kurzweil Artis will do the job, though with more limited synth options. Its Program engine is not programmable from the front panel, only from 3rd-party apps - which appear to be dated, and not well supported (The Soundtower iPad-based editor appears stuck a couple of iOS operating systems back..). And I get the feeling the Artis 7 is the ignored, bastard little brother of the Forte, support-wise; not a good feeling when considering a new instrument. So I'm now on Sweetwater's Stage 3 Compact waiting list (late January, 2018, at the earliest..). Would be awesome though if a practical, mid-priced stage tool popped at NAMM next month.
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#2894242 - 12/06/17 07:59 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
Electro Fan Offline
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Posts: 382
Loc: Maine
Allan,
This really is too bad regarding the Leslie not being able to be completely independent on the Roland VR-730. It had recently caught my attention as well, but also a deal breaker for me.

Is the lack of a dedicated synth engine and missing mod/pitch controllers the reason why the Nord Electro 5d is not on your list?
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#2894249 - 12/06/17 08:28 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Electro Fan]
allan_evett Offline
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Originally Posted By: Electro Fan
Allan,
This really is too bad regarding the Leslie not being able to be completely independent on the Roland VR-730. It had recently caught my attention as well, but also a deal breaker for me.

Is the lack of a dedicated synth engine and missing mod/pitch controllers the reason why the Nord Electro 5d is not on your list?


It is a shame, as I like the VR-730 a lot; it's just that one, glaring omission..

Definitely need pitch/mod control, and thought I'd found a workaround for the Electro 5d. The instrument does have has a special mode that allows for external MIDI control of the upper part synth engine. I'd thought that a Roland A-01 - which does pitch/mod - could be MIDI'd into the Electro and allow for synth control while playing the keyboard. But when the special mode is selected it also separates the upper part synth from the keyboard; so that mode is only for an actual external controlling keyboard.
Otherwise, I would be fine with the synth portion of the Electro 5.
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#2894257 - 12/06/17 09:03 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Kurzweil Artis will do the job, though with more limited synth options. Its Program engine is not programmable from the front panel, only from 3rd-party apps - which appear to be dated, and not well supported (The Soundtower iPad-based editor appears stuck a couple of iOS operating systems back..). And I get the feeling the Artis 7 is the ignored, bastard little brother of the Forte, support-wise; not a good feeling when considering a new instrument.

Good points. But something that might help is that the Kurz is strong as a MIDI controller. So just talking about synth for a moment, like the Artis7, you can't edit synth parameters from the VR front panel. You need to incorporate an iPad. Well, once you say you have to use an iPad, why limit the iPad to being only an editor? There are great synth apps on the iPad. I understand the Roland advantage, that you don't need to have the iPad connected all the time to use the sounds (and the Roland can also drive an iPad for additional sounds, for that matter). But the Kurz alternative approach also has advantages... you have sliders and buttons you can define to do whatever you want, and you can more fully integrate external sounds. The Roland does let you save Registrations that include sending a MIDI Program Change, but the Kurzweil registration-equivalent (Multi) supports four zones with four MIDI Program changes and controller assignments, and you have quick access to many more (for direct access without scrolling, Roland has 4 banks of 4 user Registration buttons, Kurz has 16 banks of 16). But I agree, I wouldn't count on any more updates for the Artis7, and it could certainly use some. But I wouldn't count on any more updates for the VR either, and it could use even more. ;-) All that said, an NS3-73 looks to be a great board, and in many ways, a lot better than either one of them. The Kurz does retain some advantages in MIDI control functionality, patch selection, and a better set of "rompler" sounds, and I think it's probably more flexible overall, but Nord is stronger for piano, organ, VA synth and has other niceties like aftertouch, pitch stick, lighter weight, custom sample loading, and the dedicated-knob ergonomics.
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#2894262 - 12/06/17 09:19 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
TomKittel Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 475
Originally Posted By: allan_evett

Kurzweil Artis....the Soundtower iPad-based editor appears stuck a couple of iOS operating systems back...


Which is a real shame. I did not expect such poor customer service from Kurzweil.... anyone listening there?

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#2894263 - 12/06/17 09:25 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
TomKittel Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 475
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Originally Posted By: TomKittel
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed,


That's not true... at least not with my VR09 OS 1.12. There is NO leslie on the piano when a piano/organ split is created.


From the VR-730 / VR-09b Reference Guide:

"If youíre playing two sounds (split or dual) (p. 28), the settings will determine which sound is affected.
When using Dual: The same effects will apply to both sounds.
When using Split: The effects will be applied only to the upper part (except for reverb). However if youíve assigned organ sound to the lower part, the same effects will apply to all parts."



Oh, I wasn't aware that it matters which sound is upper or lower. The VR09 is not my main board. Obviously I always only assigned split sounds to the lower part which worked fine.

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#2894318 - 12/06/17 01:20 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
mojkarma Offline
Member

Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
[quote=allan_evett] But something that might help is that the Kurz is strong as a MIDI controller. So just talking about synth for a moment, like the Artis7, you can't edit synth parameters from the VR front panel. You need to incorporate an iPad. Well, once you say you have to use an iPad, why limit the iPad to being only an editor? There are great synth apps on the iPad. I understand the Roland advantage, that you don't need to have the iPad connected all the time to use the sounds (and the Roland can also drive an iPad for additional sounds, for that matter). But the Kurz alternative approach also has advantages... you have sliders and buttons you can define to do whatever you want, and you can more fully integrate external sounds. The Roland does let you save Registrations that include sending a MIDI Program Change, but the Kurzweil registration-equivalent (Multi) supports four zones with four MIDI Program changes and controller assignments, and you have quick access to many more (for direct access without scrolling, Roland has 4 banks of 4 user Registration buttons, Kurz has 16 banks of 16).


An important thing regarding the Artis, and that actually proves what allan_evett said about it: a keyboard completely ignored by Kurzweil.
The problem with the Artis as a Midi Controller is that it has a bug which prevents you to control properly external gear. Kurzweil owners know that Kurzweil sends a single number instead of separate MSB and LSB values. For whatever strange reason, Kurzweil still insist on their way which means that there is a formula where you multiply the msb and lsb values and add an extra number to that (don't remember it exactly, the formula is on their support site). These number is always greater than 128, but the Artis has the bug where you can't put a number bigger then that for the combined msb/lsb value. That means, selecting banks on contemporary gear which often has dozens of banks is impossible.
Also, for whatever reason the CC values are not the same as they are on the PC3 series.

One should consider the Artis only if you plan to play it as it is, without any program editing and not as a midi controller. Kurzweil has stellar midi control abilities which are lightyears ahead of the competition, but the Artis doesn't belong into that group.

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#2894328 - 12/06/17 02:06 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
[quote=allan_evett] But something that might help is that the Kurz is strong as a MIDI controller. So just talking about synth for a moment, like the Artis7, you can't edit synth parameters from the VR front panel. You need to incorporate an iPad. Well, once you say you have to use an iPad, why limit the iPad to being only an editor? There are great synth apps on the iPad. I understand the Roland advantage, that you don't need to have the iPad connected all the time to use the sounds (and the Roland can also drive an iPad for additional sounds, for that matter). But the Kurz alternative approach also has advantages... you have sliders and buttons you can define to do whatever you want, and you can more fully integrate external sounds. The Roland does let you save Registrations that include sending a MIDI Program Change, but the Kurzweil registration-equivalent (Multi) supports four zones with four MIDI Program changes and controller assignments, and you have quick access to many more (for direct access without scrolling, Roland has 4 banks of 4 user Registration buttons, Kurz has 16 banks of 16).


An important thing regarding the Artis, and that actually proves what allan_evett said about it: a keyboard completely ignored by Kurzweil.
The problem with the Artis as a Midi Controller is that it has a bug which prevents you to control properly external gear. Kurzweil owners know that Kurzweil sends a single number instead of separate MSB and LSB values. For whatever strange reason, Kurzweil still insist on their way which means that there is a formula where you multiply the msb and lsb values and add an extra number to that (don't remember it exactly, the formula is on their support site). These number is always greater than 128, but the Artis has the bug where you can't put a number bigger then that for the combined msb/lsb value. That means, selecting banks on contemporary gear which often has dozens of banks is impossible.
Also, for whatever reason the CC values are not the same as they are on the PC3 series.

One should consider the Artis only if you plan to play it as it is, without any program editing and not as a midi controller. Kurzweil has stellar midi control abilities which are lightyears ahead of the competition, but the Artis doesn't belong into that group.


Definitely a caution; but the Artis 7 could still work for me. And after Scott's post, I've started to more strongly consider it - since I have a pretty extensive iPad instrument collection. As I wouldn't be doing anything elaborate with multi-channel/bank program changes, the Artis 7 with my iPad as a basic, single-channel synth expansion module is attractive. After all, it is an extremely well built and versatile instrument; and it costs less than half of a Stage 3 Compact, or 76.
Though the Soundtower iPad editor is out of commission on iOS 11, does anyone have experience with a working version of the Artis editor for mac or PC (I use both) ? Any other Artis 7 user want to chime in ?
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#2894334 - 12/06/17 02:22 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
selecting banks on contemporary gear which often has dozens of banks is impossible.
Also, for whatever reason the CC values are not the same as they are on the PC3 series.
One should consider the Artis only if you plan to play it as it is, without any program editing and not as a midi controller. Kurzweil has stellar midi control abilities which are lightyears ahead of the competition, but the Artis doesn't belong into that group.

That's interesting, thanks for the heads-up about incompatibility with bank select. For iPad synths, I think you can generally work within 128 program changes and not need to do additional bank switching, but it's definitely worth knowing about that limitation. I actually don't really understand even what Kurz is trying to do here, even if it did work correctly. Looking in the manual, I do see the info about the formula, but I *also* see where it looks like you can enter the Bank as its own value apart from the Program Change, so I'm not sure why you even need to bother with the formula approach, I must be missing something.

As for CC values being different from PC3 models, I'm not sure why that would be a concern to anyone, unless they were looking to use the Artis to replace a PC3 series model and didn't want to re-do their programming. Again, good to know, but I don't think this would affect Allan or the typical buyer (i.e. anyone who didn't already own a PC3 of some sort).
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#2894374 - 12/06/17 06:47 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5465
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Kurzweil Artis will do the job, though with more limited synth options. Its Program engine is not programmable from the front panel, only from 3rd-party apps - which appear to be dated, and not well supported (The Soundtower iPad-based editor appears stuck a couple of iOS operating systems back..). And I get the feeling the Artis 7 is the ignored, bastard little brother of the Forte, support-wise; not a good feeling when considering a new instrument.

Good points. But something that might help is that the Kurz is strong as a MIDI controller. So just talking about synth for a moment, like the Artis7, you can't edit synth parameters from the VR front panel. You need to incorporate an iPad. Well, once you say you have to use an iPad, why limit the iPad to being only an editor? There are great synth apps on the iPad. I understand the Roland advantage, that you don't need to have the iPad connected all the time to use the sounds (and the Roland can also drive an iPad for additional sounds, for that matter). But the Kurz alternative approach also has advantages... you have sliders and buttons you can define to do whatever you want, and you can more fully integrate external sounds. The Roland does let you save Registrations that include sending a MIDI Program Change, but the Kurzweil registration-equivalent (Multi) supports four zones with four MIDI Program changes and controller assignments, and you have quick access to many more (for direct access without scrolling, Roland has 4 banks of 4 user Registration buttons, Kurz has 16 banks of 16). But I agree, I wouldn't count on any more updates for the Artis7, and it could certainly use some. But I wouldn't count on any more updates for the VR either, and it could use even more. ;-) All that said, an NS3-73 looks to be a great board, and in many ways, a lot better than either one of them. The Kurz does retain some advantages in MIDI control functionality, patch selection, and a better set of "rompler" sounds, and I think it's probably more flexible overall, but Nord is stronger for piano, organ, VA synth and has other niceties like aftertouch, pitch stick, lighter weight, custom sample loading, and the dedicated-knob ergonomics.


Except that an NS3 Compact is literally close to $2k more than the VR-730 or Artis7. Always a short coming in these Swiss army knife boards - especially the ones built around a clonewheel. Electro, Mojo61and SK1 want for a synth section. Which is bizarre to me. Every effort to offer some selection of pianos and EPs which are the last thing I want to play on an organ action. I'd like to see a pairing of a synth with a clonewheel. If they think it wise to include pianos and EPs that's fine. But organ, synth, brass/strings/woodwinds is mostly what I need over a stage piano.

Not sure how successful the Vox and Grandstage are going to be for Korg. In the effort to make them easy to use and not compete with Kronos - maybe they watered down too far? Didn't Crumar suggest something imminent for end of 2017? A Gemini based Nord killer would be very welcome. But would it have better MIDI implementation, an assignable out, and more flexible fx routing than the Roland VR-730? Not sure at all.
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#2894415 - 12/07/17 01:36 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
mojkarma Offline
Member

Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

As for CC values being different from PC3 models, I'm not sure why that would be a concern to anyone, unless they were looking to use the Artis to replace a PC3 series model and didn't want to re-do their programming. Again, good to know, but I don't think this would affect Allan or the typical buyer (i.e. anyone who didn't already own a PC3 of some sort).


Kurzweil has some very cool CC parameters which are not part of the standard Midi protocol. These cool CC parameters are above the number 128.

For example:

There are CC parameters which will mute or unmute a zone or there is a goto CC where you can use a controller to send a bank/program change to external gear!

The unmute zone is a very cool parameter. You can program a button on the PC3 or Forte so that that single button mutes one or more zones at once! Depressing the button will restore the previous state. Another button can mute/unmute different zones than the first button.
So, within one multi, you can use the buttons above the sliders to activate a certain number of zones for the intro of your song, by pressing another button you can deactivate those zones at once and activate another zone or more of them. You can use a third button to send a bank/program change on one of your zones if you need another patch for the solo and so on.

Kurzweil has terrific midi options. Unfortunately those parameters which I described above are missing on the Artis but all other Kurzweil models have them. You wont miss them for simple things but it's pitty they aren't there.

Of course, for simple tasks without heavy use of midi the Artis is capable.

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#2894459 - 12/07/17 07:10 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
J. Dan Offline
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there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128. That's why as an example pitch bend uses 2 bytes and banks have to use at least 2 CC's (MSB/LSB) to go over 128.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894658 - 12/07/17 11:34 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
mojkarma Offline
Member

Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128. That's why as an example pitch bend uses 2 bytes and banks have to use at least 2 CC's (MSB/LSB) to go over 128.


It doesn't really matter how they managed to do it. Kurzweil adds additional functions and shows them as a CC parameter list. This gives the user the freedom to control some parameters or functions as "normal" midi events with the controllers. You may take a look into the Artis Musicians Guide, page 8-21.
The CC destinations go from 0 up to 146. The first 128 CCs are the standard ones (1 being Modulation, 07 Volume and so on), and the rest are Kurzweil specific ones.
On the Forte, the CC list goes up to 178. A lot of those CCs lying above 128 in the Forte are dedicated to arpeggio control, but still, on the Artis a few very practical ones which are in the PC3 and Forte, are omitted like the mute zone cc which I mentioned above.

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#2894674 - 12/08/17 04:05 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Quote:
there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128.


MIDI uses 8-bit bytes. I don't know why CCs stop at 127, but there are enough bits to go to 255.
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
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#2894681 - 12/08/17 05:40 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
The Real MC Offline
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Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 4720
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Originally Posted By: WesG
Quote:
there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128.


MIDI uses 8-bit bytes. I don't know why CCs stop at 127, but there are enough bits to go to 255.


Message bytes have the MSB set to 1 with the remaining bits for message type (note on/off, program change, CC, sysex, etc) and MIDI channel #. Data bytes have the MSB set to 0, leaving only 7 bits for data thus the upper limit is 128. It was implemented that way so that the MIDI stream could be thinned out by sending continuous changes in data without re-sending the message byte (known as running status). That's been the MIDI standard since day one.

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#2894689 - 12/08/17 07:36 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Thanks - that makes sense. I haven't done any non-trivial MIDI work since 1995. I completely forgot about the MSb/running status stuff. Amazing what leaks out of our brains!!
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
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#2894692 - 12/08/17 07:52 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
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Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128. That's why as an example pitch bend uses 2 bytes and banks have to use at least 2 CC's (MSB/LSB) to go over 128.


It doesn't really matter how they managed to do it. Kurzweil adds additional functions and shows them as a CC parameter list. This gives the user the freedom to control some parameters or functions as "normal" midi events with the controllers. You may take a look into the Artis Musicians Guide, page 8-21.
The CC destinations go from 0 up to 146. The first 128 CCs are the standard ones (1 being Modulation, 07 Volume and so on), and the rest are Kurzweil specific ones.
On the Forte, the CC list goes up to 178. A lot of those CCs lying above 128 in the Forte are dedicated to arpeggio control, but still, on the Artis a few very practical ones which are in the PC3 and Forte, are omitted like the mute zone cc which I mentioned above.


Well, it does matter depending on what other instrument you're talking to, because, for example, if they are implementing it by using RPN's/NRPN's, a lot of other keyboards and controllers support that, you just have to map it. If it's SYSEX then it would be unique to Kurz.
_________________________
Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894715 - 12/08/17 10:14 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
jmemcse517 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/13/14
Posts: 196
I must be the target market for the VR-730. I go out on the weekends and play classic rock in clubs. I am not a pro musician, just a guy that has fun and picks up some extra cash.

I've had a VR-09 for about 3 years now and it works for me. It has some limitations that I have to remind the band about from time to time, but I always say it's a $1000 keyboard and they cut some corners so guys like me can afford one. It's unrealistic to expect a $1000 keyboard to have all the functionality of one that costs 3 times as much.

There is nothing about the VR-730 that's a deal breaker for me.
_________________________
I got a bunch of stuff, none of it the really cool stuff though. I am working on it; I want really cool stuff.

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#2894718 - 12/08/17 10:32 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: jmemcse517]
WesG Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
I'm actually really pissed about the VR-09. I didn't want another board in my rig, but I'm totally hooked on some of the sounds.

I spent 2 hours last night trying to program a transistor organ on my CP4 that's even half as good.........no dice. Still trying to decide if I will be running two boards or one in addition to the organ tonight. I don't like putting too much hardware between me and the audience, and my two-tier stand has a pole right in front of my face.
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894735 - 12/08/17 11:45 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
OB Dave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 969
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: The Real MC
It was implemented that way so that the MIDI stream could be thinned out by sending continuous changes in data without re-sending the message byte (known as running status). That's been the MIDI standard since day one.


And even more importantly, it makes the protocol self-synchronizing. This is of crucial importance since its a one-way protocol (no way for the receiver to acknowledge receipt of a message). If the receiving device comes online mid-message, or crashes, or if a byte gets lost, the cable gets yanked, etc, its MIDI parser will automatically get back in sync upon receipt of a new status byte, and status byes are easy to spot because they're they only things that have the high bit set. It's brilliant and simple, but it does prohibit data bytes from being greater than 7 bits without spanning multiple bytes, as is done with pitch bend, RPN, NRPN, etc.

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#2894749 - 12/08/17 01:47 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: OB Dave]
Adan Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 2284
Loc: San Francisco
Now that I understand the issue better, I don't think it's a deal breaker for the majority of keyboardists who might be interested in the VR730. How many folks need organ with leslie in the left hand and piano (or whatever) in the right? It has come up for me often enough that it would disqualify a keyboard as a do-it-all, and for me the do-it-all aspect was the whole appeal of it. But I'm in a small percentage of players who would say they must have that (so is Allan, apparently).
_________________________
Petrof upright, Hammond B3 & Leslie 122, Hammond Melodion, Korg Vox Continental.

roccoromanucci.com

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#2894783 - 12/08/17 09:49 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Adan]
allan_evett Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Adan
Now that I understand the issue better, I don't think it's a deal breaker for the majority of keyboardists who might be interested in the VR730. How many folks need organ with leslie in the left hand and piano (or whatever) in the right? It has come up for me often enough that it would disqualify a keyboard as a do-it-all, and for me the do-it-all aspect was the whole appeal of it. But I'm in a small percentage of players who would say they must have that (so is Allan, apparently).


I agree, Adan. I have had that particular split, plus a few other similar ones, on stage 88s for at least a decade. The S90ES and XS allowed for it, and so does my current stage piano, the RD-2000. I still have an S90XS on a church gig, with the same Voices and Performance setups that were in use in my own unit from 2009 until mid 2017.

It's been my longtime rig ideal to have similar patches and performance setups on a compact keyboard that I could use either as 2nd tier over the stage piano, or by itself for rehearsals and single-keyboard gigs; and since I do quite bit of piano, it needs to be 73/76 keys. I thought the VR-730 would be an ideal compliment to the RD, but discovered that the split and effects implementations were too limited for my application. OTOH, the sounds and capabilities of the VR-730 were excellent, and I would certainly recommend the VR-09b / VR-730 to the majority of players that Adan referred to. It was very addictive to play and program; definitely invites experimenting.

I returned the VR-730 today, and took the plunge into a Stage 3, 76. In addition to having the functions I wanted (plus being fairly compact, and light - at 27 lbs.), it will also offer, shortly, the capability to import WAV-based multi-sample files. That made me start taking stock of some existing instruments in my studio: ones that don't go out any longer, yet I keep them around for a couple dozen particular patches. So I can think of at least one instrument that will be up for sale in 2018. The Nord Sample Editor and functions of Stage 3 allow for some very creative programming. And sampling older, favorite sounds, then selling off that gear, will help defray some of the extra cost of the Stage 3.
_________________________
"Someday, we will look back on these days and laugh. It may be a maniacal laugh from within the confines of our padded cells, but it will be a laugh nonetheless" - Mr. Boffo.








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#2894794 - 12/09/17 05:07 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
AnotherScott Offline
10k Club

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I returned the VR-730 today, and took the plunge into a Stage 3, 76. In addition to having the functions I wanted (plus being fairly compact, and light - at 27 lbs.), it will also offer, shortly, the capability to import WAV-based multi-sample files. That made me start taking stock of some existing instruments in my studio: ones that don't go out any longer, yet I keep them around for a couple dozen particular patches. So I can think of at least one instrument that will be up for sale in 2018. The Nord Sample Editor and functions of Stage 3 allow for some very creative programming. And sampling older, favorite sounds, then selling off that gear, will help defray some of the extra cost of the Stage 3.

As long as the sounds you want to sample can be reasonably captured at a single velocity level, the NS3 should be able to handle that okay... and getting back to the idea of integrating an iPad if need be, you can add more sample playback versatility that way as well (though the samples you bring directly into the Nord have the extra perk of being able to process those samples through its synth section).

I noticed you also shifted from going with the Compact to the 76 instead. Was that more because, when you do single-board stuff, you'd prefer the weighted action, or because when you pair it with something, the board you'd want to pair it with is, itself, a non-hammer board? Or the extra keys up top? To me, it's a shame the 76 doesn't have the drawbars, but I know some people even prefer the drawbuttons, too.
_________________________
Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2894796 - 12/09/17 06:28 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5465
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Anyone been inside their NS compact yet?
Would the replacement springs for the Artis7 work here too?
_________________________
Live: Yamaha S90ES, Roland VR-700
Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k

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#2894808 - 12/09/17 07:52 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
allan_evett Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I returned the VR-730 today, and took the plunge into a Stage 3, 76. In addition to having the functions I wanted (plus being fairly compact, and light - at 27 lbs.), it will also offer, shortly, the capability to import WAV-based multi-sample files. That made me start taking stock of some existing instruments in my studio: ones that don't go out any longer, yet I keep them around for a couple dozen particular patches. So I can think of at least one instrument that will be up for sale in 2018. The Nord Sample Editor and functions of Stage 3 allow for some very creative programming. And sampling older, favorite sounds, then selling off that gear, will help defray some of the extra cost of the Stage 3.

As long as the sounds you want to sample can be reasonably captured at a single velocity level, the NS3 should be able to handle that okay... and getting back to the idea of integrating an iPad if need be, you can add more sample playback versatility that way as well (though the samples you bring directly into the Nord have the extra perk of being able to process those samples through its synth section).

I noticed you also shifted from going with the Compact to the 76 instead. Was that more because, when you do single-board stuff, you'd prefer the weighted action, or because when you pair it with something, the board you'd want to pair it with is, itself, a non-hammer board? Or the extra keys up top? To me, it's a shame the 76 doesn't have the drawbars, but I know some people even prefer the drawbuttons, too.


The sampling process should be pretty straightforward, though I know that some of the patches will need to be tweaked. Pablo Mastadon from Nord CS provided expert guidance yesterday; I have copious notes from that. Basically I need to create a multi-sample track in Logic Pro X, even out the velocities (between 88 and 110), save as a WAV file, then import that into the Nord Sample Editor / Stage 3 (likely to be available by NAMM). It will auto loop and place the samples in the ranges set in Logic.

Using the iPad for added flavors of live sound is intriguing. I use my iPad Air 2 as a teaching tool, mostly using GarageBand, SampleTank, and Syntronik - which is ridiculous, an almost 50 year trip down synthesis memory lane. IK MultiMedia nailed that one.

While I would have preferred drawbars on the 76-key Stage, having the weighted action for one-keyboard situations won out. Plus, being able to grab a G octave at the top (without using octave transpose) is helpful for rock playing. 76-keys seems to be my Goldilocks size.
_________________________
"Someday, we will look back on these days and laugh. It may be a maniacal laugh from within the confines of our padded cells, but it will be a laugh nonetheless" - Mr. Boffo.








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#2894812 - 12/09/17 08:35 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
Electro Fan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 382
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I returned the VR-730 today, and took the plunge into a Stage 3, 76. In addition to having the functions I wanted (plus being fairly compact, and light - at 27 lbs.), it will also offer, shortly, the capability to import WAV-based multi-sample files. That made me start taking stock of some existing instruments in my studio: ones that don't go out any longer, yet I keep them around for a couple dozen particular patches. So I can think of at least one instrument that will be up for sale in 2018. The Nord Sample Editor and functions of Stage 3 allow for some very creative programming. And sampling older, favorite sounds, then selling off that gear, will help defray some of the extra cost of the Stage 3.

As long as the sounds you want to sample can be reasonably captured at a single velocity level, the NS3 should be able to handle that okay... and getting back to the idea of integrating an iPad if need be, you can add more sample playback versatility that way as well (though the samples you bring directly into the Nord have the extra perk of being able to process those samples through its synth section).

I noticed you also shifted from going with the Compact to the 76 instead. Was that more because, when you do single-board stuff, you'd prefer the weighted action, or because when you pair it with something, the board you'd want to pair it with is, itself, a non-hammer board? Or the extra keys up top? To me, it's a shame the 76 doesn't have the drawbars, but I know some people even prefer the drawbuttons, too.


The sampling process should be pretty straightforward, though I know that some of the patches will need to be tweaked. Pablo Mastadon from Nord CS provided expert guidance yesterday; I have copious notes from that. Basically I need to create a multi-sample track in Logic Pro X, even out the velocities (between 88 and 110), save as a WAV file, then import that into the Nord Sample Editor / Stage 3 (likely to be available by NAMM). It will auto loop and place the samples in the ranges set in Logic.

Using the iPad for added flavors of live sound is intriguing. I use my iPad Air 2 as a teaching tool, mostly using GarageBand, SampleTank, and Syntronik - which is ridiculous, an almost 50 year trip down synthesis memory lane. IK MultiMedia nailed that one.

While I would have preferred drawbars on the 76-key Stage, having the weighted action for one-keyboard situations won out. Plus, being able to grab a G octave at the top (without using octave transpose) is helpful for rock playing. 76-keys seems to be my Goldilocks size.


Allan,

I have never played on the Nord HP action used on the NS3 and NS2EX but it seems that many users prefer the HA used on the NS2 76. I am curious to your impressions of the HP keybed. Do you think the reduction in weight of the NS3 76 makes up for the change in keybed? I thinking of making a change in my rig and weight is a large factor.
_________________________
Korg Kronos 61, Casio PX-5S, Yamaha DXR 10 (2)), Neo Vent, Yamaha MG82cx mixer and too many stands to name.

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#2894847 - 12/09/17 11:56 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Electro Fan]
J. Dan Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 11316
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Congrats on the red purchase. Your pocket book may not appreciate it but I'm sure you'll enjoy it!
_________________________
Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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