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#2893905 - 12/04/17 11:11 AM Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
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Loc: Westville, IN
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations with regard to splits/layers and core effects assignments, but somehow missed the memo about the rotary speaker model being universal, per Registration. So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed, and that there weren't any software updates planned - not even for the VR-730, for which I would've thought there might be something, but...Nada. Too bad, as it's a great sounding instrument.

Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars), it appears the choices are limited; and especially as I want the instrument to be under 30 lbs. So, once again the Stage 3 Compact idea rises to the top. Didn't want to spend that much, as I already have an SK-1 73 to cover the top tier on dual-keyboard gigs. But the Stage 3 does do a lot, and extremely well at that.

Additional ideas, thoughts, or a miraculous work-around for the VR are more than welcome. But I have a feeling I'll be getting a RA from Sweetwater soon, and ordering an NS3 Compact.
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#2893910 - 12/04/17 11:37 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
J. Dan Offline
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Pan piano left, organ right, and use a vent? Yeah, probably not. That seems like a major oversight.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2893912 - 12/04/17 12:13 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
mate stubb Offline
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#2893913 - 12/04/17 12:14 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
Adan Offline
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Thanks for sharing. That's a dealbreaker for me too. And for many, I would imagine.
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#2893922 - 12/04/17 12:45 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Adan]
WesG Offline
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Yeah. That's pretty damn annoying.

FWIW you can't use the pan solution, either. The best I can think of would be to use an external piano module and feed it back into the VR09's aux in port.

That would suck less. Especially if the piano module were small and sounded great.

I have a VR09 right now which is indispensible in my rig, but I keep having to drag along a CP4 to make up for some of its limitations. If it wasn't for this split issue, I MIGHT be able to get by with only a VR-730.

Which reminds me - the other issue with splits is that things like filter cutoff and resonance are also global.

My current workaround is to use vibrato instead of Leslie. That's good enough for the odd song in a rehearsal. Not a gig.

Wes
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
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#2893927 - 12/04/17 01:05 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Hey Hey Hey.....

Just wait three years. That's how long it took Roland to update the FA06/08 with new Firmware to give us some control back as a master keyboard wink
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#2893931 - 12/04/17 01:17 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
The Real MC Offline
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Registered: 05/17/05
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations


RECENT? The VR-760 - released over ten years ago - had a similar limitation. Piano, organ, synth, & polysynth all go out the same stereo outputs. If I wanted to forego the onboard leslie simulator and route only the organ through a leslie or the simulator of my choice, can't be done without the piano and synth sounds.

Shame, because it was a decent clonewheel.

Deal killer then. Over TEN years ago, and Roland STILL don't get it. Given the track record of the 760, don't expect a fix for the 730. facepalm

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#2893940 - 12/04/17 02:24 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars), it appears the choices are limited; and especially as I want the instrument to be under 30 lbs. So, once again the Stage 3 Compact idea rises to the top.

Yup. The only other good choice I can think of is Kurzweil Artis7, which psychologically becomes more clonewheel-like if you use OBDave's replacement faders caps that make the sliders look like drawbars. A step down from that, the NE5D and FA-07 would be possibilities, with some additional limitations. NE5D only splits a max of two sounds, one of which must be a piano or an organ. FA-07 doesn't have real-time drawbar control (you use a menu to adjust the drawbar levels), unless you have OBDave's discontinued drawbar module, though there's also a 3rd-party app that lets you adjust them via iPad touchscreen. For piano playing, the FA-07 has the weakest action of the bunch, due to the increased resistance in the rear section of the keys. The VR has so much potential, but with a handful of major irritations that they don't seem likely to fix at this point.

Originally Posted By: The Real MC
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations


RECENT? The VR-760 - released over ten years ago - had a similar limitation. Piano, organ, synth, & polysynth all go out the same stereo outputs. If I wanted to forego the onboard leslie simulator and route only the organ through a leslie or the simulator of my choice, can't be done without the piano and synth sounds.

That's a different limitation than what Allan is talking about, but yes, the VR09/VR730 have that one too. There's only the single set of outs, and you can't pan different sounds to different sides. While each introduced some useful new additions, overall, I'd say the VR760 was more flexible than the VR700, and the VR700 was more flexible than the VR09/VR730. The newer ones are lighter and cheaper, though.
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#2893942 - 12/04/17 02:28 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Well, seeing the back panel and immediately noticing just R/L Mono and no sub/assignable out(s) it was definitely a clue that this is really just the VR-09. These days I suppose we have to be thankful there's still 5 pin midi io, unfortunately.

With the push to put out the 09b firmware and the 730 this seems to be just enough to keep Roland present in this little organ-centric do it all segment but not enough effort to duke it out with the pricing tier up. If Roland hadn't sold so many VR-09's they may have started to look for ways to improve but apparently this issue doesn't matter to enough of us. idk
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#2893951 - 12/04/17 03:06 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: ElmerJFudd]
WesG Offline
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At least they fixed the percussion ping routing. It goes around the V/C now.
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
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#2893957 - 12/04/17 04:06 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
If Roland hadn't sold so many VR-09's they may have started to look for ways to improve but apparently this issue doesn't matter to enough of us. idk

Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed, and that there weren't any software updates planned - not even for the VR-730

It's interesting that apparently the VR09 was a sufficiently successful product that they were prompted to do a VR730, yet seemingly not enough to address so many of the limitations. Maybe the hardware design precludes implementation of some of what we'd like to see, but it's hard to imagine that some of these things were really impossible, like being able to use the same foot switch for rotary or sustain on a registration-by-registration or sound-by-sound basis (instead of only a single global setting), or being able to select a Registration via MIDI, etc.
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#2893958 - 12/04/17 04:07 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
AnotherScott Offline
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Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: WesG
At least they fixed the percussion ping routing. It goes around the V/C now.

Cool, I didn't know about that fix. Is that only for the VR-730, or is it fixed by installing the newest update into the VR-09 as well?
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#2893985 - 12/04/17 06:32 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
The_Star_Guy Offline
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Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 194
Loc: Ann Arbor, Michigan
The percussion fix was mentioned in the release notes for the v1.12 V-Combo System Program update. I had already asked in a different thread if someone else had had a chance to confirm this yet. Glad WesG confirmed that this was indeed fixed.


Edited by The_Star_Guy (12/05/17 03:57 AM)
Edit Reason: nomemclature correction
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#2894017 - 12/05/17 04:42 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
stevie b Offline
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Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 550
Loc: Virginia
Quote:
RECENT? The VR-760 - released over ten years ago - had a similar limitation. Piano, organ, synth, & polysynth all go out the same stereo outputs. If I wanted to forego the onboard leslie simulator and route only the organ through a leslie or the simulator of my choice, can't be done without the piano and synth sounds.


Seems they have actually gone backward on UI features.

I still have a VR760 and although it does not have separate output routing, It can be split or layered among the three sound engines.
And leslie effects are only applied to the organ section.
It also has an awesome keybed.

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#2894019 - 12/05/17 04:45 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
The_Star_Guy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 194
Loc: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Originally Posted By: allan_evett

Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars.

Additional ideas, thoughts, or a miraculous work-around for the VR are more than welcome. But I have a feeling I'll be getting a RA from Sweetwater soon, and ordering an NS3 Compact.


Allan, I am curious about just how well the USB-MIDI control functions of the VR-Combo series function? Do you have or use an iPad capable of running something like Korg Module? Something like that might possibly allow you to still keep the travel package simple and lightweight, and yet maintain the flexibility that you need? And which version of the V-Combo firmware are you running?
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#2894025 - 12/05/17 05:21 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4001
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations with regard to splits/layers and core effects assignments, but somehow missed the memo about the rotary speaker model being universal, per Registration. So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed, and that there weren't any software updates planned - not even for the VR-730, for which I would've thought there might be something, but...Nada. Too bad, as it's a great sounding instrument.

Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars), it appears the choices are limited; and especially as I want the instrument to be under 30 lbs. So, once again the Stage 3 Compact idea rises to the top. Didn't want to spend that much, as I already have an SK-1 73 to cover the top tier on dual-keyboard gigs. But the Stage 3 does do a lot, and extremely well at that.

Additional ideas, thoughts, or a miraculous work-around for the VR are more than welcome. But I have a feeling I'll be getting a RA from Sweetwater soon, and ordering an NS3 Compact.


Do you need the synth part of the stage? If not, consider the Electro 5. Cheaper and has the same organ and pianos. The sample player, while limited, is fine for pad type stuff as you can adjust the attack and release and also get some filter control thru velocity.
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#2894028 - 12/05/17 05:40 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: stevie b]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: stevie b
Seems they have actually gone backward on UI features.

I still have a VR760 and although it does not have separate output routing, It can be split or layered among the three sound engines.

One thing they have improved since then, though, is that you can do a split/layer between any two sounds. On the VR760, any time you split or layer, one of the sounds would have to be a piano or organ.
_________________________
Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2894034 - 12/05/17 06:13 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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This has been a common complaint since the VR09 was first released, and a major reason I don't have one.
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#2894036 - 12/05/17 06:31 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
kenheeter Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 114
Alan, I have a Stage 2 Compact that I might sell. Please PM me if you're interested. Thanks, Ken

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#2894041 - 12/05/17 07:05 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
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Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: stevie b
Seems they have actually gone backward on UI features.

I still have a VR760 and although it does not have separate output routing, It can be split or layered among the three sound engines.

One thing they have improved since then, though, is that you can do a split/layer between any two sounds. On the VR760, any time you split or layer, one of the sounds would have to be a piano or organ.

You can split between two non-organ sounds on the VR-700. I donít remember about layers, Iíd need to check that.
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#2894044 - 12/05/17 07:11 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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Originally Posted By: Mighty Ferguson
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

One thing they have improved since then, though, is that you can do a split/layer between any two sounds. On the VR760, any time you split or layer, one of the sounds would have to be a piano or organ.

You can split between two non-organ sounds on the VR-700.

Correct, that was one of the improvements from the VR760 to the VR700. Though a number of features were lost in that transition as well.
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Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2894092 - 12/05/17 11:49 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
mountainjammer Offline
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Registered: 12/21/13
Posts: 16
Loc: CT
Any idea if the drawbars and other controls transmit CC? I have an HX3 which would solve the organ sound and Leslie output problems, but if I had to hook up drawbars too, it is starting to defeat its purpose as a convenient all-in-one.

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#2894099 - 12/05/17 11:59 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mountainjammer]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
On the VR-730? I'm 99.99% sure they transmit sysex but not CC.
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894101 - 12/05/17 12:04 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
To B3 Offline
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Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 802
If you split a piano with organ, the piano does not get "leslied". It's when you layer them that it happens... With splits, the lower part does not get any of the tone/compressor/mfx assignements... which is bad too... Hope you be able to assign them via menu, per patch in a future update...

Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I knew that the recent VR Series had some limitations with regard to splits/layers and core effects assignments, but somehow missed the memo about the rotary speaker model being universal, per Registration. So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed, and that there weren't any software updates planned - not even for the VR-730, for which I would've thought there might be something, but...Nada. Too bad, as it's a great sounding instrument.

Since I was planning to use the VR-730 quite a bit for single-keyboard stuff (where I make use of splits and layers, and also need a clonewheel with drawbars), it appears the choices are limited; and especially as I want the instrument to be under 30 lbs. So, once again the Stage 3 Compact idea rises to the top. Didn't want to spend that much, as I already have an SK-1 73 to cover the top tier on dual-keyboard gigs. But the Stage 3 does do a lot, and extremely well at that.

Additional ideas, thoughts, or a miraculous work-around for the VR are more than welcome. But I have a feeling I'll be getting a RA from Sweetwater soon, and ordering an NS3 Compact.
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#2894109 - 12/05/17 12:48 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: To B3]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: To B3
If you split a piano with organ, the piano does not get "leslied". It's when you layer them that it happens... With splits, the lower part does not get any of the tone/compressor/mfx assignements... which is bad too... Hope you be able to assign them via menu, per patch in a future update...


I'm curious as to how you did that on the VR-730 (or VR-09). I followed the instructions for creating a split, with organ on the lower tone, and piano on the upper tone; then reversed that; I also set up a piano-organ layer. In all instances both tones were processed by the rotary speaker effect when it was toggled on, then not processed when toggled off. Two different Roland reps confirmed that the rotary effect is universal to all sounds when toggled on. If they and I both missed something, and the problem is only with layers, I'd like to see the workaround. Other than the split / universal rotary problem, the VR-730 was a great fit.
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#2894131 - 12/05/17 02:30 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Maybe he used the MFX knob rotary sim?
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894137 - 12/05/17 02:46 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
J. Dan Offline
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From the manual, it appears that the rotary effect is only applied to the organ in split mode unless the organ is assigned to the lower split.

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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894139 - 12/05/17 02:48 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
stoken6 Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 1543
I remember Craig McDonald commenting that his VR09/controller (KX88 I think) combo, set to organ-over-piano would "play the blues all night" (those are the words in my memory, I might have misremembered the exact wording, but the sense is there).

If you can't bypass Leslie on the piano part, that's just plain stupid. It's like... I dunno, not being able to set sustain pedal functionality per patch, or routing C/V through the leslie sim, or not being able to pan outputs, or not being able to load/save individual patches, or providing a +1 button but no -1, or ... well I'm sure you can think of something.

Cheers, Mike.


Edited by stoken6 (12/05/17 02:49 PM)
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#2894146 - 12/05/17 03:09 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: stoken6]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
I don't know if you're trying to be smart or what, but

- not being able to set sustain pedal functionality per patch was addressed in firmware 1.12 (note - have not tested this personally yet)
- routing C/V through the leslie sim is something every real organ and every clonewheel I'm aware of does. How do you think a B3 works? There is typically only one output device, a Leslie, and there is no output path from the AO-28 which does not include C/V when it is in used
- not being able to load/save individual patches was addressed in firmware 1.03

Wes
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894174 - 12/05/17 06:07 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
From the manual, it appears that the rotary effect is only applied to the organ in split mode unless the organ is assigned to the lower split.



Hmm....If that's the case, then I could only have a separate, rotary-based organ in the upper - RH - voice of a split. Unfortunately, the splits I set up with organ need to have organ on the left (lower) part. That way, Iím holding basic, comped chords on organ with my LH, and using my RH to cover the more involved piano and synth parts.
_________________________
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