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#2894177 - 12/05/17 06:22 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Hmm....If that's the case, then I could only have a separate, rotary-based organ in the upper - RH - voice of a split. Unfortunately, the splits I set up with organ need to have organ on the left (lower) part. That way, Iím holding basic, comped chords on organ with my LH, and using my RH to cover the more involved piano and synth parts.


Turn the keyboard around and learn to play it backwards. poke grin


Edited by J. Dan (12/05/17 06:24 PM)
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894198 - 12/05/17 09:01 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
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Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Hmm....If that's the case, then I could only have a separate, rotary-based organ in the upper - RH - voice of a split. Unfortunately, the splits I set up with organ need to have organ on the left (lower) part. That way, Iím holding basic, comped chords on organ with my LH, and using my RH to cover the more involved piano and synth parts.


Turn the keyboard around and learn to play it backwards. poke grin


laugh Or develop insane crosshand technique..
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#2894210 - 12/05/17 11:56 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: stoken6]
stoken6 Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 1543
Originally Posted By: WesG
I don't know if you're trying to be smart or what


I was (well, trying to be humourous), and of course I failed. I wrote
Originally Posted By: stoken6
routing C/V through the leslie sim
when I should have written "route percussion through the C/V"

Which of course is also fixed.

I guess Roland have been addressing more on this board than I realised.

Can you choose whether the pedal controls piano-sustain, sim-speed, both, or none - on a patch-by-patch basis?

Cheers, Mike.
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#2894218 - 12/06/17 03:07 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
TomKittel Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 475
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed,


That's not true... at least not with my VR09 OS 1.12. There is NO leslie on the piano when a piano/organ split is created.

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#2894220 - 12/06/17 03:54 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: TomKittel]
Legatoboy Online   content
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I gigged my VR09 with my Yamaha CP50 and MIDIED to the
Roland piano that I played from the 50 an played organ on the VR on the top tier w/ Leslie only on the Roland Organ....did take me some time to figure that out..I did it with the Channel assignments in the SETUP I believe....can't remember for sure, the VR has been gone for awhile!
I sold my VR for a NE5 BTW!


Edited by Legatoboy (12/06/17 03:56 AM)
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#2894239 - 12/06/17 07:16 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: TomKittel]
allan_evett Offline
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Originally Posted By: TomKittel
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed,


That's not true... at least not with my VR09 OS 1.12. There is NO leslie on the piano when a piano/organ split is created.


From the VR-730 / VR-09b Reference Guide:

"If youíre playing two sounds (split or dual) (p. 28), the settings will determine which sound is affected.
When using Dual: The same effects will apply to both sounds.
When using Split: The effects will be applied only to the upper part (except for reverb). However if youíve assigned organ sound to the lower part, the same effects will apply to all parts."

This is the crux of the issue, as I have several instances of Registrations with organ - lower, piano/ep/synth - upper to be programmed. And I've confirmed that there is no fix in the works, as Roland copied the internal design of the VR-09 forward into the VR-730. Though there were some additional sounds added in the new model, I was told the core VR engine simply doesn't have the 'horsepower' to include completely separate effects assignments for upper/lower tones.

So, other options in a 73/76 key, compact instrument: The new Vox Continental has the sounds, and some very cool features, but doesn't split - at least not in the way needed for my application. Kurzweil Artis will do the job, though with more limited synth options. Its Program engine is not programmable from the front panel, only from 3rd-party apps - which appear to be dated, and not well supported (The Soundtower iPad-based editor appears stuck a couple of iOS operating systems back..). And I get the feeling the Artis 7 is the ignored, bastard little brother of the Forte, support-wise; not a good feeling when considering a new instrument. So I'm now on Sweetwater's Stage 3 Compact waiting list (late January, 2018, at the earliest..). Would be awesome though if a practical, mid-priced stage tool popped at NAMM next month.
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#2894242 - 12/06/17 07:59 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
Electro Fan Offline
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Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 382
Loc: Maine
Allan,
This really is too bad regarding the Leslie not being able to be completely independent on the Roland VR-730. It had recently caught my attention as well, but also a deal breaker for me.

Is the lack of a dedicated synth engine and missing mod/pitch controllers the reason why the Nord Electro 5d is not on your list?
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#2894249 - 12/06/17 08:28 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Electro Fan]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Electro Fan
Allan,
This really is too bad regarding the Leslie not being able to be completely independent on the Roland VR-730. It had recently caught my attention as well, but also a deal breaker for me.

Is the lack of a dedicated synth engine and missing mod/pitch controllers the reason why the Nord Electro 5d is not on your list?


It is a shame, as I like the VR-730 a lot; it's just that one, glaring omission..

Definitely need pitch/mod control, and thought I'd found a workaround for the Electro 5d. The instrument does have has a special mode that allows for external MIDI control of the upper part synth engine. I'd thought that a Roland A-01 - which does pitch/mod - could be MIDI'd into the Electro and allow for synth control while playing the keyboard. But when the special mode is selected it also separates the upper part synth from the keyboard; so that mode is only for an actual external controlling keyboard.
Otherwise, I would be fine with the synth portion of the Electro 5.
_________________________
"Someday, we will look back on these days and laugh. It may be a maniacal laugh from within the confines of our padded cells, but it will be a laugh nonetheless" - Mr. Boffo.








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#2894257 - 12/06/17 09:03 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Kurzweil Artis will do the job, though with more limited synth options. Its Program engine is not programmable from the front panel, only from 3rd-party apps - which appear to be dated, and not well supported (The Soundtower iPad-based editor appears stuck a couple of iOS operating systems back..). And I get the feeling the Artis 7 is the ignored, bastard little brother of the Forte, support-wise; not a good feeling when considering a new instrument.

Good points. But something that might help is that the Kurz is strong as a MIDI controller. So just talking about synth for a moment, like the Artis7, you can't edit synth parameters from the VR front panel. You need to incorporate an iPad. Well, once you say you have to use an iPad, why limit the iPad to being only an editor? There are great synth apps on the iPad. I understand the Roland advantage, that you don't need to have the iPad connected all the time to use the sounds (and the Roland can also drive an iPad for additional sounds, for that matter). But the Kurz alternative approach also has advantages... you have sliders and buttons you can define to do whatever you want, and you can more fully integrate external sounds. The Roland does let you save Registrations that include sending a MIDI Program Change, but the Kurzweil registration-equivalent (Multi) supports four zones with four MIDI Program changes and controller assignments, and you have quick access to many more (for direct access without scrolling, Roland has 4 banks of 4 user Registration buttons, Kurz has 16 banks of 16). But I agree, I wouldn't count on any more updates for the Artis7, and it could certainly use some. But I wouldn't count on any more updates for the VR either, and it could use even more. ;-) All that said, an NS3-73 looks to be a great board, and in many ways, a lot better than either one of them. The Kurz does retain some advantages in MIDI control functionality, patch selection, and a better set of "rompler" sounds, and I think it's probably more flexible overall, but Nord is stronger for piano, organ, VA synth and has other niceties like aftertouch, pitch stick, lighter weight, custom sample loading, and the dedicated-knob ergonomics.
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#2894262 - 12/06/17 09:19 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
TomKittel Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 475
Originally Posted By: allan_evett

Kurzweil Artis....the Soundtower iPad-based editor appears stuck a couple of iOS operating systems back...


Which is a real shame. I did not expect such poor customer service from Kurzweil.... anyone listening there?

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#2894263 - 12/06/17 09:25 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
TomKittel Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 475
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Originally Posted By: TomKittel
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
So, no organ / piano splits without rotary on the piano tone. Just confirmed with Roland CS that there was nothing I missed,


That's not true... at least not with my VR09 OS 1.12. There is NO leslie on the piano when a piano/organ split is created.


From the VR-730 / VR-09b Reference Guide:

"If youíre playing two sounds (split or dual) (p. 28), the settings will determine which sound is affected.
When using Dual: The same effects will apply to both sounds.
When using Split: The effects will be applied only to the upper part (except for reverb). However if youíve assigned organ sound to the lower part, the same effects will apply to all parts."



Oh, I wasn't aware that it matters which sound is upper or lower. The VR09 is not my main board. Obviously I always only assigned split sounds to the lower part which worked fine.

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#2894318 - 12/06/17 01:20 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
mojkarma Offline
Member

Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
[quote=allan_evett] But something that might help is that the Kurz is strong as a MIDI controller. So just talking about synth for a moment, like the Artis7, you can't edit synth parameters from the VR front panel. You need to incorporate an iPad. Well, once you say you have to use an iPad, why limit the iPad to being only an editor? There are great synth apps on the iPad. I understand the Roland advantage, that you don't need to have the iPad connected all the time to use the sounds (and the Roland can also drive an iPad for additional sounds, for that matter). But the Kurz alternative approach also has advantages... you have sliders and buttons you can define to do whatever you want, and you can more fully integrate external sounds. The Roland does let you save Registrations that include sending a MIDI Program Change, but the Kurzweil registration-equivalent (Multi) supports four zones with four MIDI Program changes and controller assignments, and you have quick access to many more (for direct access without scrolling, Roland has 4 banks of 4 user Registration buttons, Kurz has 16 banks of 16).


An important thing regarding the Artis, and that actually proves what allan_evett said about it: a keyboard completely ignored by Kurzweil.
The problem with the Artis as a Midi Controller is that it has a bug which prevents you to control properly external gear. Kurzweil owners know that Kurzweil sends a single number instead of separate MSB and LSB values. For whatever strange reason, Kurzweil still insist on their way which means that there is a formula where you multiply the msb and lsb values and add an extra number to that (don't remember it exactly, the formula is on their support site). These number is always greater than 128, but the Artis has the bug where you can't put a number bigger then that for the combined msb/lsb value. That means, selecting banks on contemporary gear which often has dozens of banks is impossible.
Also, for whatever reason the CC values are not the same as they are on the PC3 series.

One should consider the Artis only if you plan to play it as it is, without any program editing and not as a midi controller. Kurzweil has stellar midi control abilities which are lightyears ahead of the competition, but the Artis doesn't belong into that group.

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#2894328 - 12/06/17 02:06 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
[quote=allan_evett] But something that might help is that the Kurz is strong as a MIDI controller. So just talking about synth for a moment, like the Artis7, you can't edit synth parameters from the VR front panel. You need to incorporate an iPad. Well, once you say you have to use an iPad, why limit the iPad to being only an editor? There are great synth apps on the iPad. I understand the Roland advantage, that you don't need to have the iPad connected all the time to use the sounds (and the Roland can also drive an iPad for additional sounds, for that matter). But the Kurz alternative approach also has advantages... you have sliders and buttons you can define to do whatever you want, and you can more fully integrate external sounds. The Roland does let you save Registrations that include sending a MIDI Program Change, but the Kurzweil registration-equivalent (Multi) supports four zones with four MIDI Program changes and controller assignments, and you have quick access to many more (for direct access without scrolling, Roland has 4 banks of 4 user Registration buttons, Kurz has 16 banks of 16).


An important thing regarding the Artis, and that actually proves what allan_evett said about it: a keyboard completely ignored by Kurzweil.
The problem with the Artis as a Midi Controller is that it has a bug which prevents you to control properly external gear. Kurzweil owners know that Kurzweil sends a single number instead of separate MSB and LSB values. For whatever strange reason, Kurzweil still insist on their way which means that there is a formula where you multiply the msb and lsb values and add an extra number to that (don't remember it exactly, the formula is on their support site). These number is always greater than 128, but the Artis has the bug where you can't put a number bigger then that for the combined msb/lsb value. That means, selecting banks on contemporary gear which often has dozens of banks is impossible.
Also, for whatever reason the CC values are not the same as they are on the PC3 series.

One should consider the Artis only if you plan to play it as it is, without any program editing and not as a midi controller. Kurzweil has stellar midi control abilities which are lightyears ahead of the competition, but the Artis doesn't belong into that group.


Definitely a caution; but the Artis 7 could still work for me. And after Scott's post, I've started to more strongly consider it - since I have a pretty extensive iPad instrument collection. As I wouldn't be doing anything elaborate with multi-channel/bank program changes, the Artis 7 with my iPad as a basic, single-channel synth expansion module is attractive. After all, it is an extremely well built and versatile instrument; and it costs less than half of a Stage 3 Compact, or 76.
Though the Soundtower iPad editor is out of commission on iOS 11, does anyone have experience with a working version of the Artis editor for mac or PC (I use both) ? Any other Artis 7 user want to chime in ?
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#2894334 - 12/06/17 02:22 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: mojkarma
selecting banks on contemporary gear which often has dozens of banks is impossible.
Also, for whatever reason the CC values are not the same as they are on the PC3 series.
One should consider the Artis only if you plan to play it as it is, without any program editing and not as a midi controller. Kurzweil has stellar midi control abilities which are lightyears ahead of the competition, but the Artis doesn't belong into that group.

That's interesting, thanks for the heads-up about incompatibility with bank select. For iPad synths, I think you can generally work within 128 program changes and not need to do additional bank switching, but it's definitely worth knowing about that limitation. I actually don't really understand even what Kurz is trying to do here, even if it did work correctly. Looking in the manual, I do see the info about the formula, but I *also* see where it looks like you can enter the Bank as its own value apart from the Program Change, so I'm not sure why you even need to bother with the formula approach, I must be missing something.

As for CC values being different from PC3 models, I'm not sure why that would be a concern to anyone, unless they were looking to use the Artis to replace a PC3 series model and didn't want to re-do their programming. Again, good to know, but I don't think this would affect Allan or the typical buyer (i.e. anyone who didn't already own a PC3 of some sort).
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#2894374 - 12/06/17 06:47 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5465
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
Kurzweil Artis will do the job, though with more limited synth options. Its Program engine is not programmable from the front panel, only from 3rd-party apps - which appear to be dated, and not well supported (The Soundtower iPad-based editor appears stuck a couple of iOS operating systems back..). And I get the feeling the Artis 7 is the ignored, bastard little brother of the Forte, support-wise; not a good feeling when considering a new instrument.

Good points. But something that might help is that the Kurz is strong as a MIDI controller. So just talking about synth for a moment, like the Artis7, you can't edit synth parameters from the VR front panel. You need to incorporate an iPad. Well, once you say you have to use an iPad, why limit the iPad to being only an editor? There are great synth apps on the iPad. I understand the Roland advantage, that you don't need to have the iPad connected all the time to use the sounds (and the Roland can also drive an iPad for additional sounds, for that matter). But the Kurz alternative approach also has advantages... you have sliders and buttons you can define to do whatever you want, and you can more fully integrate external sounds. The Roland does let you save Registrations that include sending a MIDI Program Change, but the Kurzweil registration-equivalent (Multi) supports four zones with four MIDI Program changes and controller assignments, and you have quick access to many more (for direct access without scrolling, Roland has 4 banks of 4 user Registration buttons, Kurz has 16 banks of 16). But I agree, I wouldn't count on any more updates for the Artis7, and it could certainly use some. But I wouldn't count on any more updates for the VR either, and it could use even more. ;-) All that said, an NS3-73 looks to be a great board, and in many ways, a lot better than either one of them. The Kurz does retain some advantages in MIDI control functionality, patch selection, and a better set of "rompler" sounds, and I think it's probably more flexible overall, but Nord is stronger for piano, organ, VA synth and has other niceties like aftertouch, pitch stick, lighter weight, custom sample loading, and the dedicated-knob ergonomics.


Except that an NS3 Compact is literally close to $2k more than the VR-730 or Artis7. Always a short coming in these Swiss army knife boards - especially the ones built around a clonewheel. Electro, Mojo61and SK1 want for a synth section. Which is bizarre to me. Every effort to offer some selection of pianos and EPs which are the last thing I want to play on an organ action. I'd like to see a pairing of a synth with a clonewheel. If they think it wise to include pianos and EPs that's fine. But organ, synth, brass/strings/woodwinds is mostly what I need over a stage piano.

Not sure how successful the Vox and Grandstage are going to be for Korg. In the effort to make them easy to use and not compete with Kronos - maybe they watered down too far? Didn't Crumar suggest something imminent for end of 2017? A Gemini based Nord killer would be very welcome. But would it have better MIDI implementation, an assignable out, and more flexible fx routing than the Roland VR-730? Not sure at all.
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#2894415 - 12/07/17 01:36 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
mojkarma Offline
Member

Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

As for CC values being different from PC3 models, I'm not sure why that would be a concern to anyone, unless they were looking to use the Artis to replace a PC3 series model and didn't want to re-do their programming. Again, good to know, but I don't think this would affect Allan or the typical buyer (i.e. anyone who didn't already own a PC3 of some sort).


Kurzweil has some very cool CC parameters which are not part of the standard Midi protocol. These cool CC parameters are above the number 128.

For example:

There are CC parameters which will mute or unmute a zone or there is a goto CC where you can use a controller to send a bank/program change to external gear!

The unmute zone is a very cool parameter. You can program a button on the PC3 or Forte so that that single button mutes one or more zones at once! Depressing the button will restore the previous state. Another button can mute/unmute different zones than the first button.
So, within one multi, you can use the buttons above the sliders to activate a certain number of zones for the intro of your song, by pressing another button you can deactivate those zones at once and activate another zone or more of them. You can use a third button to send a bank/program change on one of your zones if you need another patch for the solo and so on.

Kurzweil has terrific midi options. Unfortunately those parameters which I described above are missing on the Artis but all other Kurzweil models have them. You wont miss them for simple things but it's pitty they aren't there.

Of course, for simple tasks without heavy use of midi the Artis is capable.

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#2894459 - 12/07/17 07:10 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
J. Dan Offline
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there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128. That's why as an example pitch bend uses 2 bytes and banks have to use at least 2 CC's (MSB/LSB) to go over 128.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894658 - 12/07/17 11:34 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: J. Dan]
mojkarma Offline
Member

Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128. That's why as an example pitch bend uses 2 bytes and banks have to use at least 2 CC's (MSB/LSB) to go over 128.


It doesn't really matter how they managed to do it. Kurzweil adds additional functions and shows them as a CC parameter list. This gives the user the freedom to control some parameters or functions as "normal" midi events with the controllers. You may take a look into the Artis Musicians Guide, page 8-21.
The CC destinations go from 0 up to 146. The first 128 CCs are the standard ones (1 being Modulation, 07 Volume and so on), and the rest are Kurzweil specific ones.
On the Forte, the CC list goes up to 178. A lot of those CCs lying above 128 in the Forte are dedicated to arpeggio control, but still, on the Artis a few very practical ones which are in the PC3 and Forte, are omitted like the mute zone cc which I mentioned above.

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#2894674 - 12/08/17 04:05 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Quote:
there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128.


MIDI uses 8-bit bytes. I don't know why CCs stop at 127, but there are enough bits to go to 255.
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
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#2894681 - 12/08/17 05:40 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: WesG]
The Real MC Offline
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Registered: 05/17/05
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Originally Posted By: WesG
Quote:
there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128.


MIDI uses 8-bit bytes. I don't know why CCs stop at 127, but there are enough bits to go to 255.


Message bytes have the MSB set to 1 with the remaining bits for message type (note on/off, program change, CC, sysex, etc) and MIDI channel #. Data bytes have the MSB set to 0, leaving only 7 bits for data thus the upper limit is 128. It was implemented that way so that the MIDI stream could be thinned out by sending continuous changes in data without re-sending the message byte (known as running status). That's been the MIDI standard since day one.

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#2894689 - 12/08/17 07:36 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Thanks - that makes sense. I haven't done any non-trivial MIDI work since 1995. I completely forgot about the MSb/running status stuff. Amazing what leaks out of our brains!!
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894692 - 12/08/17 07:52 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: mojkarma]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: mojkarma
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
there is no such thing as a CC over the number 128. There aren't enough bits to go over 128. That's why as an example pitch bend uses 2 bytes and banks have to use at least 2 CC's (MSB/LSB) to go over 128.


It doesn't really matter how they managed to do it. Kurzweil adds additional functions and shows them as a CC parameter list. This gives the user the freedom to control some parameters or functions as "normal" midi events with the controllers. You may take a look into the Artis Musicians Guide, page 8-21.
The CC destinations go from 0 up to 146. The first 128 CCs are the standard ones (1 being Modulation, 07 Volume and so on), and the rest are Kurzweil specific ones.
On the Forte, the CC list goes up to 178. A lot of those CCs lying above 128 in the Forte are dedicated to arpeggio control, but still, on the Artis a few very practical ones which are in the PC3 and Forte, are omitted like the mute zone cc which I mentioned above.


Well, it does matter depending on what other instrument you're talking to, because, for example, if they are implementing it by using RPN's/NRPN's, a lot of other keyboards and controllers support that, you just have to map it. If it's SYSEX then it would be unique to Kurz.
_________________________
Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894715 - 12/08/17 10:14 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
jmemcse517 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/13/14
Posts: 196
I must be the target market for the VR-730. I go out on the weekends and play classic rock in clubs. I am not a pro musician, just a guy that has fun and picks up some extra cash.

I've had a VR-09 for about 3 years now and it works for me. It has some limitations that I have to remind the band about from time to time, but I always say it's a $1000 keyboard and they cut some corners so guys like me can afford one. It's unrealistic to expect a $1000 keyboard to have all the functionality of one that costs 3 times as much.

There is nothing about the VR-730 that's a deal breaker for me.
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#2894718 - 12/08/17 10:32 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: jmemcse517]
WesG Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 3126
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
I'm actually really pissed about the VR-09. I didn't want another board in my rig, but I'm totally hooked on some of the sounds.

I spent 2 hours last night trying to program a transistor organ on my CP4 that's even half as good.........no dice. Still trying to decide if I will be running two boards or one in addition to the organ tonight. I don't like putting too much hardware between me and the audience, and my two-tier stand has a pole right in front of my face.
_________________________
Hammond: L111, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, B3
Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 31H
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2894735 - 12/08/17 11:45 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: The Real MC]
OB Dave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 969
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: The Real MC
It was implemented that way so that the MIDI stream could be thinned out by sending continuous changes in data without re-sending the message byte (known as running status). That's been the MIDI standard since day one.


And even more importantly, it makes the protocol self-synchronizing. This is of crucial importance since its a one-way protocol (no way for the receiver to acknowledge receipt of a message). If the receiving device comes online mid-message, or crashes, or if a byte gets lost, the cable gets yanked, etc, its MIDI parser will automatically get back in sync upon receipt of a new status byte, and status byes are easy to spot because they're they only things that have the high bit set. It's brilliant and simple, but it does prohibit data bytes from being greater than 7 bits without spanning multiple bytes, as is done with pitch bend, RPN, NRPN, etc.

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#2894749 - 12/08/17 01:47 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: OB Dave]
Adan Offline
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Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 2284
Loc: San Francisco
Now that I understand the issue better, I don't think it's a deal breaker for the majority of keyboardists who might be interested in the VR730. How many folks need organ with leslie in the left hand and piano (or whatever) in the right? It has come up for me often enough that it would disqualify a keyboard as a do-it-all, and for me the do-it-all aspect was the whole appeal of it. But I'm in a small percentage of players who would say they must have that (so is Allan, apparently).
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#2894783 - 12/08/17 09:49 PM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: Adan]
allan_evett Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: Adan
Now that I understand the issue better, I don't think it's a deal breaker for the majority of keyboardists who might be interested in the VR730. How many folks need organ with leslie in the left hand and piano (or whatever) in the right? It has come up for me often enough that it would disqualify a keyboard as a do-it-all, and for me the do-it-all aspect was the whole appeal of it. But I'm in a small percentage of players who would say they must have that (so is Allan, apparently).


I agree, Adan. I have had that particular split, plus a few other similar ones, on stage 88s for at least a decade. The S90ES and XS allowed for it, and so does my current stage piano, the RD-2000. I still have an S90XS on a church gig, with the same Voices and Performance setups that were in use in my own unit from 2009 until mid 2017.

It's been my longtime rig ideal to have similar patches and performance setups on a compact keyboard that I could use either as 2nd tier over the stage piano, or by itself for rehearsals and single-keyboard gigs; and since I do quite bit of piano, it needs to be 73/76 keys. I thought the VR-730 would be an ideal compliment to the RD, but discovered that the split and effects implementations were too limited for my application. OTOH, the sounds and capabilities of the VR-730 were excellent, and I would certainly recommend the VR-09b / VR-730 to the majority of players that Adan referred to. It was very addictive to play and program; definitely invites experimenting.

I returned the VR-730 today, and took the plunge into a Stage 3, 76. In addition to having the functions I wanted (plus being fairly compact, and light - at 27 lbs.), it will also offer, shortly, the capability to import WAV-based multi-sample files. That made me start taking stock of some existing instruments in my studio: ones that don't go out any longer, yet I keep them around for a couple dozen particular patches. So I can think of at least one instrument that will be up for sale in 2018. The Nord Sample Editor and functions of Stage 3 allow for some very creative programming. And sampling older, favorite sounds, then selling off that gear, will help defray some of the extra cost of the Stage 3.
_________________________
"Someday, we will look back on these days and laugh. It may be a maniacal laugh from within the confines of our padded cells, but it will be a laugh nonetheless" - Mr. Boffo.








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#2894794 - 12/09/17 05:07 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: allan_evett]
AnotherScott Offline
10k Club

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I returned the VR-730 today, and took the plunge into a Stage 3, 76. In addition to having the functions I wanted (plus being fairly compact, and light - at 27 lbs.), it will also offer, shortly, the capability to import WAV-based multi-sample files. That made me start taking stock of some existing instruments in my studio: ones that don't go out any longer, yet I keep them around for a couple dozen particular patches. So I can think of at least one instrument that will be up for sale in 2018. The Nord Sample Editor and functions of Stage 3 allow for some very creative programming. And sampling older, favorite sounds, then selling off that gear, will help defray some of the extra cost of the Stage 3.

As long as the sounds you want to sample can be reasonably captured at a single velocity level, the NS3 should be able to handle that okay... and getting back to the idea of integrating an iPad if need be, you can add more sample playback versatility that way as well (though the samples you bring directly into the Nord have the extra perk of being able to process those samples through its synth section).

I noticed you also shifted from going with the Compact to the 76 instead. Was that more because, when you do single-board stuff, you'd prefer the weighted action, or because when you pair it with something, the board you'd want to pair it with is, itself, a non-hammer board? Or the extra keys up top? To me, it's a shame the 76 doesn't have the drawbars, but I know some people even prefer the drawbuttons, too.
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#2894796 - 12/09/17 06:28 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5465
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Anyone been inside their NS compact yet?
Would the replacement springs for the Artis7 work here too?
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Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k

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#2894808 - 12/09/17 07:52 AM Re: Back To The Drawing Board, AKA: VR-730 Deal Breaker [Re: AnotherScott]
allan_evett Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: allan_evett
I returned the VR-730 today, and took the plunge into a Stage 3, 76. In addition to having the functions I wanted (plus being fairly compact, and light - at 27 lbs.), it will also offer, shortly, the capability to import WAV-based multi-sample files. That made me start taking stock of some existing instruments in my studio: ones that don't go out any longer, yet I keep them around for a couple dozen particular patches. So I can think of at least one instrument that will be up for sale in 2018. The Nord Sample Editor and functions of Stage 3 allow for some very creative programming. And sampling older, favorite sounds, then selling off that gear, will help defray some of the extra cost of the Stage 3.

As long as the sounds you want to sample can be reasonably captured at a single velocity level, the NS3 should be able to handle that okay... and getting back to the idea of integrating an iPad if need be, you can add more sample playback versatility that way as well (though the samples you bring directly into the Nord have the extra perk of being able to process those samples through its synth section).

I noticed you also shifted from going with the Compact to the 76 instead. Was that more because, when you do single-board stuff, you'd prefer the weighted action, or because when you pair it with something, the board you'd want to pair it with is, itself, a non-hammer board? Or the extra keys up top? To me, it's a shame the 76 doesn't have the drawbars, but I know some people even prefer the drawbuttons, too.


The sampling process should be pretty straightforward, though I know that some of the patches will need to be tweaked. Pablo Mastadon from Nord CS provided expert guidance yesterday; I have copious notes from that. Basically I need to create a multi-sample track in Logic Pro X, even out the velocities (between 88 and 110), save as a WAV file, then import that into the Nord Sample Editor / Stage 3 (likely to be available by NAMM). It will auto loop and place the samples in the ranges set in Logic.

Using the iPad for added flavors of live sound is intriguing. I use my iPad Air 2 as a teaching tool, mostly using GarageBand, SampleTank, and Syntronik - which is ridiculous, an almost 50 year trip down synthesis memory lane. IK MultiMedia nailed that one.

While I would have preferred drawbars on the 76-key Stage, having the weighted action for one-keyboard situations won out. Plus, being able to grab a G octave at the top (without using octave transpose) is helpful for rock playing. 76-keys seems to be my Goldilocks size.
_________________________
"Someday, we will look back on these days and laugh. It may be a maniacal laugh from within the confines of our padded cells, but it will be a laugh nonetheless" - Mr. Boffo.








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