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#2900319 - 01/07/18 02:32 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: Karl Schmeer]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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I had some doo-dads I needed, so I tried to place an order with Musician's Friend. Their computer stuck out its tongue at me and said, "I'm gonna sulk today." So I called and talked to a human. Got the order placed, everything's groovy there.

While I had this person on the line (who shall remain nameless in case this is, somehow, top secret information--don't want to get 'em in trouble), I asked about my Behringer Model D. This is what I was told:

MF expects a shipment of Behringer Model Ds in on 1/12/18. The quantity (I was given a figure, but will retain that info, as it might also be secret) is sufficient to meet all back orders, plus leave some available for sale. Given that it takes the warehouse ~24 hours to process incoming stuff and that the 12th is a Friday and that the warehouse is closed on weekends, it will probably be Monday or Tuesday before units actually ship. People should start looking for their Model Ds sometime during the week of 1/16-1/19, depending on shipping distances from the warehouse.

Grey
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#2900892 - 01/09/18 12:42 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
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‘Please allow me to clarify that the first batch of Model D’s had arrived at our German retailer Music Store right before yearend, which you can easily verify with them.

The next batch will hopefully leave the factory by end of coming week with some units being air-shipped to the US. The production is still relatively slow due to the fact that each unit takes over 30 minutes to warm up followed by a meticulous one-hour calibration and quality assurance procedure. The electronic-savvy people among you understand that unlike digital synths, producing true analog instruments is a much bigger challenge.

I truly understand your frustration, but we are literally swamped with ten thousands of backorders and we simply need some time to ramp up. We will never rush as quality always comes first.

As you may know, we have recently moved into our new and highly-automated 3 million square-feet plant which has been more challenging than we initially thought, a circumstance that has added to the delay. Moving with over 3,000 people and 800 truck loads of equipment has likely been one of the biggest challenges in my life.
However we are very happy that manufacturing is now fully back up again and our new factory will dramatically increase our efficiency plus lower manufacturing cost – benefits we can then pass on to you the customers.

Thank you for your understanding and amazing support.

Uli’

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#2900897 - 01/09/18 01:01 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: burningbusch]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
The next batch will hopefully leave the factory by end of coming week...


Thanks.

When was that posted?

Grey
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#2900918 - 01/09/18 02:07 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
burningbusch Offline
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#2900927 - 01/09/18 02:41 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: burningbusch]
GRollins Offline
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If you follow the link at the bottom of that post, it takes you to Uli's original post on gearslutz, which indicates that it was posted "six days ago," though I'm not seeing an absolute date. Just as well, as the date would probably be in one of those pesky Chinese date formats.

In any event, six days ago would be on or about 1/3, so "coming week" presumably means this week. That's consistent with what I was told by Musician's Friend.

I also find it interesting to note that the Behringer site has finally admitted that the Model D exists. Go to their main page, then wait for it to scroll across. If you tag the link, you'll find not only information on their Model D, but some history of analog synthesis. Cool.

Grey
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#2901577 - 01/12/18 07:46 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
GRollins Offline
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I'm in the process of (trying to) get a MIDI encoder from midiboutique. It's been a battle. The device I'm getting needs an interface to hook to a PC so it can be programmed; I can also use it to update the OS in my Little Phatty, etc., so it's off to Musician's Friend again. (Might as well put 'em on speed dial.)

While I was on the phone, I asked about the status of the Model D and...you will be thunderstruck to hear that the shipping date (at least for MF) is now next Friday, 1/19/18, instead of today. No info as to why--maybe hung in Customs or something, who knows.

Try to contain your astonishment.

Grey
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#2901617 - 01/12/18 09:49 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
mate stubb Offline
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A few years back I had a Mojo shipping from Italy only to get lost for 2 weeks in a massive snowstorm that shut down their whole country.

Nearly 50 years ago, I ordered a fancy Farfisa and had to wait 6 months - for a keyboard already in production.

I think I have been cured of panting about gear I don't yet have.
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#2901635 - 01/12/18 10:40 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: mate stubb]
GRollins Offline
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I won a guitar on eBay a year ago. The most expensive single instrument I've ever bought. Hell, after houses and cars, it's probably the most expensive item I've ever bought, period. It got dropped off at UPS and they logged it in. It left the next morning.

And vanished.

After no update to the tracking page for a week, I called UPS. As soon as I gave the woman at UPS Central the tracking number, she instantly said, "It's lost."

Good feeling, that.

I could drag out the story, because it went on for quite a while, but the thing suddenly turned up after an internal tracking investigation was initiated. Just mysteriously bubbled to the surface and started moving again. Got here in perfect condition. Yay! But, man, there were some anxious moments.

What happened? Who knows. Maybe it got stuck in a corner and forgotten. Maybe the truck got stuck in the snow (big snow storm out west during that time period--though the UPS lady said there were codes to indicate weather problems--none of those were flagged). Maybe someone got fancy ideas and tried to take it home. Beyond my ken.

This D thing is comparatively low stakes. It's a current mass production item (well...supposedly) and will eventually get here. It's just fun to watch the game.

I'm intending two experiments once it gets here:
1) Slave it off the Little Phatty, either in parallel with all five oscillators running simultaneously, or poly chain.
2) Attach it semi-permanently to the (ex-Kurzweil) Fatar keybed as a more dedicated kind of thing.

The LP is easy. The Fatar saga is dragging on and on and on (over two weeks so far and presumably at least another week or two to go, bare minimum). There's no telling how that will play out, but I'm glad to have the LP (the MM8, I guess, would be another option, but it's hooked to the Motif rack dingus) on hand so as to be able to get some good out of the D when it gets here.

Somebody pass the popcorn.

Grey
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#2904054 - 01/22/18 03:51 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
GRollins Offline
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I've been ignoring a lot of the back and forth regarding the Behringer Model D shipping dates because...well...I'm kinda 50% bored, 50% exasperated with the whole thing.

But...

I thought I'd share this one. I just got an email from Musician's Friend saying that the new anticipated date is 3/6/18. Just for giggles, I'd like to note that the date given on MF's Model D page is 2/27. So which is it, guys?

I saw a note from Uli on another site claiming that they're producing 200 units a day. So where are those units going? Who the hell knows? I'm not seeing reports that anyone has received theirs yet. I did see a post from someone who claimed that they had placed their order last June (maybe July...one of those "J" months, anyway) and that they have yet to see theirs.

Grey
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#2904061 - 01/22/18 04:31 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
Bill H. Offline
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200 a day translates into what... maybe 5000-6000 a month if all goes well? And if it's backordered 20,000-30,000 units as reported - well, you can see where this is going.

The bottleneck has been reported by Mr. B himself to be the burn-in and calibration routine before packaging. Pure speculation on my part, but could it be more time consuming and labor intensive than originally projected?

It would not surprise me if there's a price jump to reflect that after the initial orders are filled.

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#2904071 - 01/22/18 06:00 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: Bill H.]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill H.
It would not surprise me if there's a price jump to reflect that after the initial orders are filled.


This is why I went ahead and ordered one, rather than waiting. No one has said anything of the sort--at least that I've seen--but the relatively low price point, added to the fact that I was able to get a sale percentage that Musician's Friend was offering at the time, made it seem like it would be a fun toy to add to my kit. I knew that I'd hate myself if the price went up $100 later.

I drew the line at ordering multiple units because I wasn't able to verify at the time that the Model D would actually poly chain. I've since seen a (very)rudimentary poop sheet that indicates that it will, but I'm not willing to commit more money at this time to a vaporware product that seems to always be two weeks away (at best...MF now says six...).

The thing is an ongoing shaggy dog story.

Really.

Where the hell are those 200 units a day going? Are they stuck in Customs? Are they stockpiling them, with the intention of shipping 20,000 units on the same day, so as not to play favorites with Sweetwater or Musician's Friend or whoever? Are they shipping them to Antarctica for the penguins to play with? Where are they?

Note that Uli claims that some units have already been shipped to a retailer in Europe. No one seems to be posting that they've got one and either love or hate it (pick one). Where did the next batch go? And the one after that? He seems to indicate that units are actively being shipped...and yet...and yet...

I dunno. The whole thing seems to be pretty screwy from my perspective. Uli keeps saying "thanks for your patience" and "we're doing the best we can" and so forth, but there are still questions that I regard as unanswered. Musician's Friend is a well known business. Ditto for Behringer (yes, some people hate them, but they're well known and have been around for a while). But...something's kinda "off" here. I'm at two months and counting for my order. I've seen numerous posts where people have been waiting substantially longer than I have. No one seems to have gotten their product yet--even some of the very first people in line. There don't seem to be any hard facts, anywhere. You'd like to think that something Uli says is factual, yet the delivery dates keep slipping and the units that are being manufactured are apparently falling into a black hole and there are lots of things that just don't make sense.

And I'm getting very, very tired of popcorn.

Grey
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#2904073 - 01/22/18 06:27 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
the delivery dates keep slipping and the units that are being manufactured are apparently falling into a black hole and there are lots of things that just don't make sense.

And I'm getting very, very tired of popcorn.

Grey


good thing you didn't order a Tesla Model 3. laugh snax
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#2904076 - 01/22/18 06:46 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: davedoerfler]
GRollins Offline
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Yep...stuck with internal combustion for the time being.

Grey
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#2904093 - 01/22/18 08:16 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
Josh Paxton Offline
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All I know is, my SE-02 sounds great.
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#2904094 - 01/22/18 08:18 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: Bill H.]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill H.

It would not surprise me if there's a price jump to reflect that after the initial orders are filled.


were it a publicly held company I would agree. The fact that it is not and all this is a labor of love I would not expect a price increase. Of course, this is only speculation. YMMV.
_________________________
In all seriousness, whatever works for you is absolutely the way to go.
dB

Quite simply - If you can't play Jump on it, you don't want it.
MojoGuyPan

The Voyager is a Minimoog.
Bob Moog

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#2904098 - 01/22/18 08:26 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: Josh Paxton]
GRollins Offline
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Up until tonight's email, I had kinda had the SE-02 in mind as a Plan B...but only as a distant, theoretical possibility. I have to admit that it looks a little less theoretical now. I'll stay the course for a bit longer, but...I'm finding it difficult to reconcile the things that Uli is saying with the observed facts, ya know?

Grey
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#2904100 - 01/22/18 10:15 PM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: Josh Paxton]
Josh Paxton Offline
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Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
All I know is, my SE-02 sounds great.


I misspoke; that's actually not all I know. I also know that the gigs I'll have done with the SE-02 between when I got it and March 6 will pay for the price difference between it and the D. laugh
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#2904108 - 01/23/18 02:21 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: Josh Paxton]
GRollins Offline
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Given that I have absolutely zero chance of finding like-minded musicians in my area with which to form a band and play gigs (plus the fact that my keyboard skills are still rudimentary; I'd end up on bass anyway), anything I pay out for musical gear--particularly keyboards--is simply coming out of my wallet. The less I pay, the less I pay, so to speak.

That said, if something simply isn't available, then hypothetical lower prices are just that--hypothetical. Might as well make up an even lower retail price, say $100, and tout an even greater imaginary savings...

Grey


Edited by GRollins (01/23/18 02:22 AM)
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#2904115 - 01/23/18 03:38 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
TomKittel Offline
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#2904141 - 01/23/18 06:44 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: TomKittel]
GRollins Offline
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So what does "Ordered, Delivery date: Feb 10, 2018" mean? Does that mean that if you order one, you can expect to see it on, or by, Feb. 10th, or does it mean that they've got some on order and expect to receive them then? If the latter, then that's little better than the vague promises we've seen here in the US.

E293.30 + VAT + shipping would be at least as much as an SE-02 by the time it got here to the US. VAT's horrible--like 20%--much higher than the sales tax rates I'm accustomed to.

Given that Musician's Friend regularly has sales, then the SE-02 can probably be gotten for less. The last I looked, MF was offering 12% on some things. Granted, I've (supposedly) got the Behringer going for even better than that--I think they were offering 15% ca. Thanksgiving--so there's still going to be over $100 difference, no matter what.

Crap, I've forgotten where I was going with that (short term memory shorted out)...

Okay, try this: As I've noted, this is all part of a (possibly foolish) Grand Master Plan, wherein I get a durawowsler (that's kinda like a whatchamacallit, but moreso--I'll explain later) from the midiboutique people (another long, drawn-out FUBAR) to extract a MIDI signal from the Fatar keybed from the Kurzweil, thereby creating a MIDI controller of my own design. That, in turn, will drive either:
a) The Yamaha Motif XS rack (okay, maybe not, I kinda like using the MM8 to control this, but it's still an option).
b) The Behringer Model D (okay, maybe not, given that it's always mañana...).
c) The Behringer Model D in poly chain mode (see b, above).
d) A Moog Voyager RME (lots more money, but super cool).
e) All of the above, with some sort of MIDI switching doo-dad to select between the sundry sound engines.

The common thread between a-e being that they all lack keyboards--being intended to mate with my personal vaporware Fatar project. If I get an SE-02, then I'm buying a keyboard, which I don't really have room for at the moment. (I've already got a rack, so anything I can rack mount is "free" in terms of floor space.)

The A-100 is quite narrow on top (~7.75" if I recall correctly), so it's not a stable platform for anything much deeper than that. And, no, I don't want to mar that lovely mahogany by driving screws into it to build a shelf. Add to that the fact that by the time you stick a keyboard that far back & up, it's going to get hard to reach. I play sitting down so I can turn and write what I've come up with into my computer. If I'm willing to reach, though, I think I can get my project MIDI controller up there.

The other option will be to tighten up on the spacing in my Ultimate Support rack. It's already holding the Korg and Yamaha, but I think I can get a third in there. I'll have to reach higher, but not so far back as the top of the A-100.

Or I could just put the blinkin' thing upstairs. Or skyhook it. Or something.

Note that I haven't mentioned the Little Phatty. It just floats around these days, with no permanent home. An SE-02 would fall into that same category, unfortunately.

Unless there's a rack mount version of the SE-02...? I haven't done my homework on that, since I've been thinking that the D would show up.

Mañana, man...

Grey
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#2904157 - 01/23/18 07:38 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
Markyboard Offline
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I think you have to expect this when you pre-pay for a product that hasn't been released. Tbh I find it hard to believe that this is coming as a surprise to you. Marzzz mentioned that he waited close to 4 years before getting his Solaris iirc. I waited 1.5 years for my Elements after being told 6 weeks from the time I paid in full. There are plenty of other examples. It's not unusual and schedule slips come with the territory. I won't give you the "no one held a gun to your head" speech (oops) or any other brilliant words of wisdom. There's no conspiracy here, everyone's giving their best estimate based on what they know at the time - or not. Doesn't matter - it won't change when your unit arrives.

No one likes it, it's just the way it is.


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#2904162 - 01/23/18 07:58 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: Markyboard]
Marzzz Offline
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I certainly would cut some slack to a small operation- John Bowen was a one-man show who overcame a great deal to get his Solaris out there. But Behringer is a large verging on huge corporation, and I do sometimes wonder* if they announce what pretty much amounts to vaporware in order to get buyers to hesitate pulling the trigger on other products.

FWIW, I have learned my lesson, and will not purchase anything until it is 1) actually shipping 2) I have actually tried it out. I have sworn off kickstarter...


*am totally convinced

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#2904169 - 01/23/18 08:20 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: Marzzz]
GRollins Offline
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The "slip up" where Behringer had that rack of future product hints certainly made me think that they were warning Roland, et. al. that they were going to mount a massive invasion of the reissue market. "Oh, gosh, we're so sorry"...uh, not buying it.

I am in agreement with Marzzz. Small company = big slack. Large company = small slack.

I don't recall ever seeing anything like this in the string world (if Gibson, Fender, Ampeg, Marshall, etc. say they've got a guitar or bass or amp, they're generally ready to meet demand...and certainly none of this multi-month bullshit). If this is regarded as common and/or acceptable in the keyboard realm, then I will take it as part of my learning curve and be more wary in the future.

Grey
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#2904174 - 01/23/18 08:32 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
If this is regarded as common and/or acceptable in the keyboard realm, then I will take it as part of my learning curve and be more wary in the future.


Common but it should not be acceptable. mad

Waldorf is famous for showing synths at NAMM and then taking forever to deliver (or not at all). Yeah, they are a small company but I think that if you announce new gear at the NAMM show, don't announce vaporware. Have a product ready to deliver within 90 to 120 days or stay home.

This was one of their vaporsynths... the Stromberg:









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#2904176 - 01/23/18 08:34 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
GRollins Offline
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***LATE BREAKING NEWS***LATE BREAKING NEWS***LATE BREAKING NEWS***

I mentioned above that I had received an email from Musician's Friend saying that the Model D had been pushed back to 3/6. I did not note that the email was from a human--not a form letter. I wrote back, asking:

"I've seen all sorts of stuff online...some from Uli Behringer, himself...but nothing seems to match what's going on in the real world. Have you got any information as to what the actual status of the Model D is?"

I just got a reply from the person in question, saying:

"Thank you for your patience! Your item will ship 2/27/18. If you receive an email mentioning to avoid cancellation, simply reply to this email and I will make sure your item ships on said date and doesn't cancel. Thanks for choosing Musician's Friend!"

What the f***? How am I to interpret 'If you receive an email mentioning to avoid cancellation...?' Are they cancelling orders?

Is this also regarded as normal in the keyboard world?

Jeez, I think I'll go back to strings...this is getting a little too weird for me.

Grey
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#2904187 - 01/23/18 09:11 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
Rod S Offline
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Registered: 12/12/00
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I have a policy of always buying keyboards a year after release at least. I'm not a professional musician so I don't have any pressure in that regard (other than GAS). For example, I'm glad I held up on the Kronos since the first 73s had the key issue.

This way I can know bugs ahead of time and get user reviews, and avoid surprises.

I think companies should be bold and innovative; but I think Behringer may have bit more than they can chew.

I certainly wouldn't call it normal in the keyboard world, any more than electronics in general are sometimes plagued by delays or a faulty first release.

I think in general it is getting worse with electronics companies rushing projects to market. It seems acceptable to fix it later rather than guaranteeing the product is solid before going out the door.

I follow the same rule with cars.
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#2904188 - 01/23/18 09:11 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
J. Dan Online   content
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You guys crack me up.

Try living in the world of industrial electronics for a day. Products don't get delayed months, they get delayed years. All kinds of reasons, most commonly 3rd party approvals like FM, UL, CSA, etc. which is completely outside of your control. You submit your product and a big wad of cash and they approve it whenever they damn well feel like it.

And that doesn't even scratch the surface of bringing something from prototype to production, quality control, etc. You people think that they can just snap their fingers and start producing and be able to accurately predict every possible hiccup.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2904196 - 01/23/18 09:22 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: J. Dan]
GRollins Offline
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It's not that I expect a perfectly smooth process, it's that I expect the information I'm given to match the observed facts. If Uli Behringer himself cannot be trusted to have accurate information at hand and to tell the truth (whatever that might be) about whatever's going on, then perhaps it would be better if he said nothing at all. Saying things that aren't true chips away at his credibility in my eyes.

Regarding order cancellation (this is from MF):

"Backordered items by law are on an FTC clock in our system and if the clock isn’t reset the system cancels the order. It will send an email IF this happens. It’s just a precaution."

Grey
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#2904206 - 01/23/18 09:57 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: GRollins]
J. Dan Online   content
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I read Uli's statement and I don't see anything that isn't truthful. Nobody can predict the future. You give the best information you can give. He clearly stated the reason for the delay and explained that they are trying to catch up. If a weather man predicts snow next week and it doesn't snow, did he "Lie"?
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2904217 - 01/23/18 10:38 AM Re: Behringer Model D ship dates keep slipping [Re: J. Dan]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 1015
If they're producing 200/day (and theoretically increasing), where are they going? I have yet to see a single post from anyone saying they got theirs. As I believe I noted somewhere above, I saw a post on another board from someone who ordered last June and they have yet to receive theirs. If orders are being filled FIFO, then I completely, totally, absolutely understand...but where is there a statement to that effect? Nowhere, that I've seen. Certainly Musician's Friend hasn't said so, despite numerous opportunities to do so.

Musician's Friend (not Behringer) has told me on several occasions that they expected 500 units and that that would be sufficient to meet all pre-orders and leave stock left over. The date these units were expected changed as often as the sales critter. Multiple deliveries? Delays in shipping? Something else? Unclear. I'm not the only one who's been told this by MF...and yet no units have materialized. Did they arrive and get sold/shipped? Did they simply not arrive? Uli says units are shipping, but to what retailers and from thence to whom?

Behringer isn't responsible if Musician's Friend is shading the truth (read: lying) about expected due dates and whether they will actually be able to meet pre-orders. Nor vice versa. Still, there's a lot of fuzzy info out there.

For example: I'm having trouble reconciling the math behind Uli's statement late summer last year that he had pre-orders for 20k units, with Musician's Friend's repeated assertions that they are due 500 units and that that will fill pre-orders, then leave unsold stock. Musician's Friend (regardless of their profitability, etc.--that's another discussion) is still a major retailer. I know Sweetwater and Amazon and some others are listed as outlets for the Model D (per the Behringer website), but the list is not an infinite one and it's not likely that Sweetwater has 10k units backordered, vs. MF only having 300 backorders (figure per MF employees). The math just doesn't work, here.

If there are units in the field, I'd expect to see some reaction from those who have received them, whether good, bad, or indifferent. I haven't made a scorched earth search for posts, but the only things I've seen so far are all based on evaluation units that were sent out long ago. (...of which there seem to have been a plenitude...)

It's comparatively easy for a company to commit to money for vaporware. For an individual who's pulling it out of his hip pocket, it's a different matter.

Grey
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I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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