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#2889532 - 11/10/17 08:05 AM POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both?
AnotherScott Online   content
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Picking up from the thread "Anyone here gigging with a MIDI controller+laptop?" (and it being such a frequent topic here, in one way or another), I thought it would be interesting to get a current cross-section, albeit not entirely scientific...

Q: Most often, what do you use as your sound source for live gigs?

Note that I am talking about sound sources only. If you're using an iOS device for patch management, MIDI routing, charts, etc. that doesn't qualify it as a sound source. ;-)

ETA: I know you might not always use the same rig. Please choose what you are currently using most often.

...and one more edit. If you use hardware that has sounds but you don't use those sounds at all (i.e. they would be used for emergency backup only), don't count that as a sound source.



What sound sources do you gig with?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted starting: 11/10/17 07:55 AM
View the results of this poll.


Edited by AnotherScott (11/10/17 03:18 PM)
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#2889560 - 11/10/17 09:52 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
hardware Offline
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Hardware synths and FX plus a 1U PC.



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#2889565 - 11/10/17 10:06 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: hardware]
FJR Offline
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Registered: 07/07/09
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Loc: SF Bay

It could use one more entry: "Depends on the Gig"

I use hardware only with one band, and only pc with another (the midi keyboard is provided)

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#2889569 - 11/10/17 10:13 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: FJR]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: FJR

It could use one more entry: "Depends on the Gig"

I use hardware only with one band, and only pc with another (the midi keyboard is provided)



That's my answer as well. There are two gig on which I do not bring the Mainstage rig. Both are summer, outdoor, no shade 95 degrees. direct sun..... smile
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#2889573 - 11/10/17 10:35 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: EscapeRocks]
Adam Burgess Offline
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 250
Well, thru some state of affairs... I have a last minute dep gig this Monday where I'm on a Numa Stage 88 plus my Integra-7 and MainStage. It's a good venue, so worth doing even though I have to program PitBull type things....

I'm used to a Nord Stage and a Kronos or two, which can just do anything I ask of it in minutes.

It's a three fold learner - I get Mainstage mostly, the editors for the Roland are terrible; the Numa, as a controller, is playable thru headphones. The keyed is really noisy and slooooooow and the MIDI implementation is crappy.

Mainstage doing a great job do far keeping everything together. I'm having a few issues regarding concert/set/patch assign hierarchy issue things.... (more questions to follow, probably…).

But - MIDI/USB I/O seems stable on my 2011 MacBook Air. I don't dare run Komplete live. Hence the Integra.

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#2889574 - 11/10/17 10:36 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: EscapeRocks]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Originally Posted By: FJR

It could use one more entry: "Depends on the Gig"

That's my answer as well.

That's why my question was "Most often, what do you use as your sound source for live gigs?"
But I should have put that in the header line of the poll as well!
I tried to edit that, but I don't think I can.
Of course, someone will then say it's exactly a 50/50 split... ;-)
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#2889590 - 11/10/17 12:01 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
Jazz+ Offline
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No racks, just 1 light board if I am the roadie!
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#2889607 - 11/10/17 12:49 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Jazz+]
CEB Offline
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Live .... Hardware only.

Studio, mostly soft sounds. Practically everything is soft pianos plus Massive, FM7 and a few other soft synths.
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#2889622 - 11/10/17 01:33 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: CEB]
Stokely Offline
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Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 1601
Loc: Florida
Same here. Live, hardware only.

Home, software only grin I'll never go back to cabling midi and audio, and patch changes--you can't make me! Once I had a moog on a dropdown menu--nah, change my mind, b3 organ--game over.

I have dabbled with laptops at practice, both pc and mac...and every time got spooked due to issues.

I'm a believer in have a backup for everything; ironically, one of my hardware keyboards fritzed out one night but I use two so I limped by. So if I ever did go IOS or laptop, I'd still have to have a backup. Either an entirely complete backup rig ($ouch, if laptop$) that sits there and does nothing until a problem, or a hardware keyboard as a controller. Well, then I have to wire up the hardware....and if I'm going that far, why not just wire up two and be done! grin

I am aiming for small footprint and quick setup/teardown, that has been another factor for me. I work a day job and sometimes have very little time to setup (on a Friday). I don't want a rack or lots of little fiddly connections. Even though I love Logic Pro (mainstage) and my virtual instruments on mac, I'd lean Ipad simply for the logistics. I could velcro the darn thing somewhere, or attach it to my mic stand.
Three times drunks have gotten up on stage with us, once in a rolling brawl that destroyed some equipment, so I worry about a laptop a bit (and theft as well).

Every so often I start thinking about mixing in an ipad or laptop. So far I just don't think the extra hassle is worth the flexibility and sound advantage. It could still happen though, especially with gear like the Key Largo that would let me have my submixer and interface in one.

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#2889630 - 11/10/17 02:20 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Originally Posted By: FJR

It could use one more entry: "Depends on the Gig"

That's my answer as well.

That's why my question was "Most often, what do you use as your sound source for live gigs?"
But I should have put that in the header line of the poll as well!
I tried to edit that, but I don't think I can.
Of course, someone will then say it's exactly a 50/50 split... ;-)


LOL okay. smile

96/4% Split VST only to Hardware only. grin
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Gig Rig: Casio PX-5S | Arturia Keylab 61 | Roland Fantom X6 | Mainstage |


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#2889632 - 11/10/17 02:37 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: EscapeRocks]
Markay Offline
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Read my Sig.
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#2889646 - 11/10/17 03:46 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Markay
Read my Sig.

So where does the XK3C fit in? Just as B5 controller?

A bit unexpected to see Pianoteq in a rig with no keyboard of more than 61 keys! But hey, if it does the job...
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#2889647 - 11/10/17 03:50 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Markay]
David Emm Offline
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Loc: Oz. Its too damned green.
I was one of those brave souls who did shows with only a Korg 01W, so I watch all of the current proceedings with interest. (Aidan's recent gig is an impressive gem, attaboy!) I've been into Logic for a decade plus now, so I can easily understand the love for Mainstage and Cantible. You take your chances with *all* of it, but as with many cars, its amazing how long most music gear performs. Its still largely about your drive to hit the stage in the first place. Its like a line from Mark Millar's book "Wanted:" "The difference between a dream and a nightmare is how big your balls are b*tch."
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#2889656 - 11/10/17 05:51 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: David Emm]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
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Loc: Massachussets, Florida
I guess I'm anti-modern. I play with hardware only, albeit it's bar band stuff only. The idea of hauling a server and all the associated frippery just gives me the willies. Maybe it sounds better, who cares? Ain't getting paid much.

BTW, if you google me, you'll find out I've made my career in IT tech. Strange, huh?
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#2889660 - 11/10/17 06:17 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: cphollis]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
BTW, if you google me, you'll find out I've made my career in IT tech. Strange, huh?

If you go back approaching 30 years, I wrote a monthly column for MacWeek magazine. But I still gig almost always just with hardware.

I have occasionally integrated the iPad, I did that when I needed a better organ sound than I could get from the Jupiter 50. But for the most part, I'm not tremendously fussy about sound. My priority is lightweight boards with decent action and operational ergonomics, and having brought those to the gig, the sounds are usually good enough that I don't need to bother with the additional complication of integrating a computer "just" for the sounds. Still, I am periodically tempted.
_________________________
Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2889661 - 11/10/17 06:18 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Markay
Read my Sig.

So where does the XK3C fit in? Just as B5 controller?

A bit unexpected to see Pianoteq in a rig with no keyboard of more than 61 keys! But hey, if it does the job...


The XK3c doesn't leave the house.

For the cover band rock pop stuff I play 61 keys works because I can set up the patches for each song with the required octaves available and take advantage of the floating split when things get tight. If there were an affordable 73/76 note USB powered lightweight controller available I would be all over it like a rash.

The heaviest item in my rig is my X stand with laptop holder attached.
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MainStage | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P
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#2889665 - 11/10/17 06:48 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Markay]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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The young guys, in pop, rock, edm - what have you, original music... are gigging with laptop in many cases. But it's not what you'd think. It's not MainStage hosting their favorite AU/VST synth, organ, Rhodes patches whatever. Its tracks and loops, recreations of the studio tracks because that's what the audience wants to hear. And the music is so dependant upon that sound. The hook is the sound in many cases. Doesn't sound the same if it's not that sample with that delay effect through a bit crusher, etc. There's also dance music acts that are deep into the Roland Aira stuff that are running the sequences live through that MX-1 performance mixer. That type of act can be purely hardware or have Ableton patched in.
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#2889666 - 11/10/17 06:55 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Markay
If there were an affordable 73/76 note USB powered lightweight controller available I would be all over it like a rash.

Numa Compact 2 is 88 keys, but only 15.6 lbs, USB-powered (as long as you don't use its built-in speakers), nice action, and even has aftertouch. Yamaha Piaggero is 76 keys and lighter... won't power from USB but will power from rechargeable AA so there's still no wall wart to deal with. But yeah, batteries, one more thing to worry about.
_________________________
Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2889672 - 11/10/17 08:16 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
Markay Offline
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That's the dilemma I am wrestling with ATM. I would like a weighted 88 so I can hone my AP chops at home, but for most live gigs it is not essential and would not work for me as my only controller for organ, synth and other VI's. Plus it would need to equal or better the Axiom's number of faders, rotary encoders, buttons, pads and transport controls, which I map for patch up and down and patch +10 up and down.
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#2889674 - 11/10/17 08:30 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: cphollis]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
I guess I'm anti-modern. I play with hardware only, albeit it's bar band stuff only. The idea of hauling a server and all the associated frippery just gives me the willies.

Server?, Kraftwerk is the only band I have seen that hauls a server around and that is mainly to sync and run their hi res 3D graphic show.

My day job would not exist were it not for what Intel, MS and others have brought to the table since 1989. Fair to say I owe a debt of gratitude to technology for allowing me to exist at the upper end of Maslow's hierarchy of needs ever since.

I see no reason to turn my back on technology for music. Software like MainStage and the plethora of VI's are tools that liberate me from 99% of the sonic and design compromises built into hardware boards.
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#2889692 - 11/10/17 11:50 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
hag01 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/15/16
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: cphollis
BTW, if you google me, you'll find out I've made my career in IT tech. Strange, huh?

If you go back approaching 30 years, I wrote a monthly column for MacWeek magazine. But I still gig almost always just with hardware.

I have occasionally integrated the iPad, I did that when I needed a better organ sound than I could get from the Jupiter 50. But for the most part, I'm not tremendously fussy about sound. My priority is lightweight boards with decent action and operational ergonomics, and having brought those to the gig, the sounds are usually good enough that I don't need to bother with the additional complication of integrating a computer "just" for the sounds. Still, I am periodically tempted.


What is your lightweight gigging board of choice?

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#2889741 - 11/11/17 10:11 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: cphollis]
Reezekeys Offline
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Posts: 2177
Loc: NYC area
Originally Posted By: cphollis
I guess I'm anti-modern. I play with hardware only, albeit it's bar band stuff only. The idea of hauling a server and all the associated frippery just gives me the willies. Maybe it sounds better, who cares?

When it comes to choosing what to bring to a gig, the type of venue and the renumeration matters less to me than who I'm playing with - a lot less. My answer to your question is: I care. I'm also lucky to play with great musicians so I don't want to show up with anything less than my A game when it comes to sounds.

[edit - on re-read I'm not liking the tone of my post above - I don't mean to be "aspersion-casting", whatever works for you is fine. I just don't enjoy myself on any gig if I know I'm purposely using a lower grade of sounds due to any reason. I have a nice road gig now, but when I'm home I do all kinds of gigs – this is how I make my living (if you can call it that!). Even when my heart's not in the music, or the band is a little sketchy, if I don't have my laptop rig with me it only serves to make the situation worse.]


Edited by Reezekeys (11/12/17 03:38 AM)

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#2889787 - 11/11/17 02:28 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Reezekeys]
RudyS Offline
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Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 1975
Loc: Groningen, The netherlands
Hardware only. I use an IOS device for changing pathes,but that doesn’t count. I could manage without it (i found out the hard way...)
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Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2889793 - 11/11/17 03:02 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: RudyS]
Moonglow Offline
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Hardware only, don't own a single soft synth. Not that they don't intrigue me...I look at Paich and Porcaro's rig with Toto and really dig what they are doing. Similarly, I am incredibly impressed with the rig our own EscapeRocks has put together. I simply have no time to take the plunge.
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#2889812 - 11/11/17 05:52 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: cphollis]
Stokely Offline
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Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 1601
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: cphollis
I guess I'm anti-modern. I play with hardware only, albeit it's bar band stuff only. The idea of hauling a server and all the associated frippery just gives me the willies. Maybe it sounds better, who cares? Ain't getting paid much.

BTW, if you google me, you'll find out I've made my career in IT tech. Strange, huh?


Nope, not strange smile I'm not a tech, but a database developer, so I'm pretty comfortable around computers. Which means I don't trust them at all LOL!

But again, one of my hardware keyboards failed on me recently at a gig. I had one fail on me back in the late 80s too. Just have a backup for everything is my motto, I don't want to leave the band in the lurch without keys for a paying gig (even if it's not a lot of pay).

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#2889821 - 11/11/17 08:12 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Stokely]
keyman27 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 427
Loc: United States
Latency is holding me back from playing live with the laptop. At 256 samples, I can hear the latency and it's too much. 128 is fine, but that's when Mainstage starts giving me the system overload message.

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#2889823 - 11/11/17 08:26 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: keyman27]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Is that with onboard audio chipset, or a USB or Thunderbolt audio interface?
Also, how old is the Mac and which AUs are you running?
Omnisphere and Keyscape are pretty resource hungry.
But there are lots of instruments that are much lighter.
Also, lay off Spacedesigner - very high cpu use at low buffer settings.
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#2889832 - 11/12/17 12:00 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Moonglow]
RudyS Offline
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Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 1975
Loc: Groningen, The netherlands
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
Hardware only, don't own a single soft synth. Not that they don't intrigue me...I look at Paich and Porcaro's rig with Toto and really dig what they are doing. Similarly, I am incredibly impressed with the rig our own EscapeRocks has put together. I simply have no time to take the plunge.


Do you have a resource on that toto rig? I’m curious now.
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Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2889843 - 11/12/17 04:41 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: RudyS]
CowboyNQ Offline
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Registered: 06/14/15
Posts: 608
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
Hardware with a tiny bit of help from Sunrizer and a fair degree of assistance from SampleLab (both IOS).

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#2889844 - 11/12/17 04:55 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: CowboyNQ]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 3985
Loc: DE
Hardware only.I tried with a Receptor and it wasn't a good experience. The hardware I have now does everything I need for the projects I'm in. That could change some day and maybe I'd do a Mainstage type setup but for now 2 or 3 keyboards is more than adequate.
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#2889849 - 11/12/17 05:28 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: DanL]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2177
Loc: NYC area
Originally Posted By: DanL
Hardware only.I tried with a Receptor and it wasn't a good experience. The hardware I have now does everything I need for the projects I'm in. That could change some day and maybe I'd do a Mainstage type setup but for now 2 or 3 keyboards is more than adequate.

It's exactly the "2 or 3 keyboards" part that pushed me to a laptop rig. I wanted one keyboard, small & portable, connected to one small (and very portable) laptop, with my choice of top-shelf sounds. Not to say the journey hasn't been without bumps but I wouldn't do it differently. I'm old, and remember those "multi-keyboards" days – except in my day it was an OBXa, Yamaha CP70 and Rhodes. I know today's hardware boards are lighter, but they're not 9 lbs like my Roland A800! Shlep factor is not as high on my list as sound quality & playability – but it's a very close second, and the older I get, the closer it gets to #1! smile

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#2889865 - 11/12/17 07:19 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Posts: 11211
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
It's exactly the "2 or 3 keyboards" part that pushed me to a laptop rig. I wanted one keyboard, small & portable, connected to one small (and very portable) laptop
...
9 lbs like my Roland A800

I think 61 keys for piano would be too irritating to me. I'd probably at least go up to a 76-key Yamaha Piaggero or an 88-key Numa Compact (the 2 has aftertouch), and add something like a Korg Nanokontrol if I needed more of a control surface.

What's the action like on the A800? I really could not play piano well from the VR-09/FA-06 or even the improved FA-07 because of how much more resistance there was in the rear section of the keys compared to the front. OTOH, the Jupiter 50 action does not have that issue, and so is more amenable to piano playing. How does the A800 fare on that front?
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Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2889869 - 11/12/17 08:12 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: RudyS]
Moonglow Offline
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Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 4436
Loc: Northwest Indiana
Originally Posted By: RudyS
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
Hardware only, don't own a single soft synth. Not that they don't intrigue me...I look at Paich and Porcaro's rig with Toto and really dig what they are doing. Similarly, I am incredibly impressed with the rig our own EscapeRocks has put together. I simply have no time to take the plunge.


Do you have a resource on that toto rig? I’m curious now.

Here ya go:

Klonk Here
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw

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#2889876 - 11/12/17 09:06 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: DanL]
Daniel71 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 93
Loc: Rimouski Canada
Hardware only for nearly 30 years....:-)
Regards

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#2889878 - 11/12/17 09:18 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
Al Quinn Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
What's the action like on the A800? I really could not play piano well from the VR-09/FA-06 or even the improved FA-07 because of how much more resistance there was in the rear section of the keys compared to the front. OTOH, the Jupiter 50 action does not have that issue, and so is more amenable to piano playing. How does the A800 fare on that front?

I bought an A800 because I heard Rob (Reezekeys) play his so beautifully. He also has his sounds optimized and key velocity adjusted to his liking. Unfortunately, I had the exact problem you described and returned it. I have a 61-key Piaggero which I suspect has the same action as the 76-key Piaggero and am very comfortable with it's action. My theory is that most of us can get used to most actions if that's the action we mostly play on. For me, I mostly practice on acoustic piano so I have the need for an action that is similar. The Piaggero is and the A800 is not.

I continue to flirt with a laptop based rig but am struggling to find a controller I like. I did a blues gig a couple of months ago with my MacBook Pro and Electro 4D as a controller and was disappointed with the sound. For example, Ravenscroft didn't sound as good to me as the CP4. Never expected that. At this point, I've decided the laptop based rig is still worth pursuing if, for nothing else, portability. I've ordered a set of lighter springs from my E4D because I dislike it's stiff action. If I'm happy with this modification I'll use the E4D until something better comes along. I like that the E4D has drawbars and most of the controls pre-labled. If it works out it would be an expensive controller but it also has backup sounds plus I already own it. This could work! Just need to put aside some time to swap the springs. I selected springs that, as best I can tell, match the action on the Mojo (which I like).
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#2889882 - 11/12/17 09:27 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Al Quinn]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
Electro 4D as a controller and was disappointed with the sound. For example, Ravenscroft didn't sound as good to me as the CP4. Never expected that.

I'm not totally surprised... a lot of what makes a piano sound good is its playability (velocity responsiveness) from the action, and while I never played the E4D, I thought the earlier Nord Stage 2 (SW) and Electro 3 actions were particularly bad for piano. E5D seems better, and someone reported that he NS3 feels better still.

Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I've ordered a set of lighter springs from my E4D because I dislike it's stiff action...I selected springs that, as best I can tell, match the action on the Mojo (which I like).

Where did you find the springs? I've been looking into sources for springs myself.
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#2889887 - 11/12/17 09:50 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
heavy_keys Offline
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Registered: 02/10/16
Posts: 27
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I've ordered a set of lighter springs from my E4D because I dislike it's stiff action...I selected springs that, as best I can tell, match the action on the Mojo (which I like).

Where did you find the springs? I've been looking into sources for springs myself.

+1 smile

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#2889888 - 11/12/17 09:54 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
hardware Offline
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Not insinuating folks don’t already know this, but you greatly enhance the presence of your Native Synths & Samples just running them through a TC Fireworx especially if you use ADAT Out Of your Audio interface.

There’s a guy who uses an Akai Advanced 61 Controller and a laptop into a TC Fireworx that sounds great.
I first saw him 10 years ago with a KS-88 and the same rig.
Made me buy one, and I decided to add 3 more to Vocal automations and other chores like Drums, etc.

Omnisphere sounds fantastic, saw him last night on break.
Mostly Rock orientated music.
Stood by FOH. She commented how she never touched his Mix. Everyone else needed attention.
He’s knocking down doubles still for big bucks for years now.

Fun to see such mercinairies getting Fat...
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#2889890 - 11/12/17 10:02 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
keyman27 Offline
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Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 427
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Is that with onboard audio chipset, or a USB or Thunderbolt audio interface?
Also, how old is the Mac and which AUs are you running?
Omnisphere and Keyscape are pretty resource hungry.
But there are lots of instruments that are much lighter.
Also, lay off Spacedesigner - very high cpu use at low buffer settings.


I have a maxed-out 13" touchbar MBP (3.5Ghz i7, 16GB RAM). I know most of the tricks for lowering the resources -- I'm not using space designer, Omnisphere, Keyscape, etc. I'm using an organ AU (VB3 or Blue3), Pianoteq, and sometimes a couple 'real' audio sources (vocal mic, guitar).

It's mostly the latency on the real instruments that I'm unhappy with. I want to monitor the processed sound (i.e., I don't want 'zero latency'). At 256, everything works but the delay is audible and throws off the groove between the drummer & me, and it's distracting while singing. At 128 the delay is gone for me, but the laptop can't hack it.

For the interface, I'm using either a little Focusrite 2nd gen, or a Behringer XR18. I can't detect a difference between the two. Are there other interfaces that may give me just a little less latency?

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#2889893 - 11/12/17 10:21 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: keyman27]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Those AUs should really not be a tax on system resources at all and that Mac is plenty fast. If you're using VB3 with a 32bit bridge - remove it and see if that makes a difference. Check with the developer of Blue3 as well regarding how low they are able to push buffer on their test machines. Pianoteq is used by a lot of latency sensitive players and they like it, so I would need surprised that's the one. Do you find the instruments included with MainStage perform at lower buffer settings than the ones you've added?

Also, yes, the drivers for the interfaces you mentioned could be the culprit for not being able to push buffer down to 128 or lower. I'd be inclined to give the onboard audio a comparison test first - it might actually do better than the interfaces you have. And if you really want to go low latency one of the new thunderbolt interfaces like Focusrite's Clarett 2Pre which they say is delivering "ultra low round trip latency so you can use your DAW plug-ins for monitoring."
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#2889894 - 11/12/17 10:26 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
yannis D Offline
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Registered: 09/01/03
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Depends on the gig
My band is NE5+Yamaha reface organ

Other gigs is NE5 with Apple Mainstage.

In one band with mostly fly-in gigs, i don't use my hardware. There it's XV2020+Mainstage and a 88 piano as a piano/controller

As other member said, there should be another option to the poll for us using both worlds depending on the gig
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#2889897 - 11/12/17 10:51 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: yannis D]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: yannis D
As other member said, there should be another option to the poll for us using both worlds depending on the gig

I know, lots of people will do different things for different gigs, which is why I asked what people use most often. Asking what people may *ever* use would be a different poll. ;-)
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#2889905 - 11/12/17 11:12 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: keyman27]
Reezekeys Offline
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Originally Posted By: keyman27
I have a maxed-out 13" touchbar MBP (3.5Ghz i7, 16GB RAM). I know most of the tricks for lowering the resources -- I'm not using space designer, Omnisphere, Keyscape, etc. I'm using an organ AU (VB3 or Blue3), Pianoteq, and sometimes a couple 'real' audio sources (vocal mic, guitar).

It's mostly the latency on the real instruments that I'm unhappy with. I want to monitor the processed sound (i.e., I don't want 'zero latency'). At 256, everything works but the delay is audible and throws off the groove between the drummer & me, and it's distracting while singing. At 128 the delay is gone for me, but the laptop can't hack it.

Something seems wrong. I used a 128 buffer with no issues on a 2007 MacBook Pro – that's with a Core 2 Duo processor - and my host software (Plogue Bidule) only used one of those two cores! I had several VIs going sample playback & synth stuff. No live audio going through though. Have you looked at your log files for any clues? Or maybe tried removing VIs one by one to see if any one of them is especially CPU-hungry?

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#2889907 - 11/12/17 11:27 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
It's exactly the "2 or 3 keyboards" part that pushed me to a laptop rig. I wanted one keyboard, small & portable, connected to one small (and very portable) laptop
...
9 lbs like my Roland A800

I think 61 keys for piano would be too irritating to me. I'd probably at least go up to a 76-key Yamaha Piaggero or an 88-key Numa Compact (the 2 has aftertouch), and add something like a Korg Nanokontrol if I needed more of a control surface.

What's the action like on the A800? I really could not play piano well from the VR-09/FA-06 or even the improved FA-07 because of how much more resistance there was in the rear section of the keys compared to the front. OTOH, the Jupiter 50 action does not have that issue, and so is more amenable to piano playing. How does the A800 fare on that front?

Action is pretty personal. I had the "advantage" of hardly ever playing an acoustic piano, so getting used to a synth action was easy. I like the A800 action. Al talks about different response near the end of the keys – I have not noticed that but don't take that to mean that I don't believe him! I just genuinely haven't felt that since I've been playing it so long and have acclimated to it (I just started with my second A800. Also, as Al said I've spent a lot of time tweaking velocity curves and sample layer switch points). I can see how playing acoustic piano on an unweighted controller would be a drag for those used to the real thing. Then again I wanted to get it together with a 61-key unweighted action; I liked being portable, and felt that if I worked at it (and got comfortable with the octave-switch buttons, lol) I could make it work.

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#2889909 - 11/12/17 11:34 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Reezekeys]
Theo Verelst Offline
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I don't gig with, but certainly used computers a long time for music making, and I'd say apart from the reliability matters, including being able to prevent loud sound excesses because of frozen computers and software glitches, often it bothers me that the sound of software isn't according to certain studio standards about acoustics and so on, as well as that there's not just the latency matter, but also the *constant* latency matter.

T.

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#2889913 - 11/12/17 12:04 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
Originally Posted By: keyman27
At 128 the delay is gone for me, but the laptop can't hack it.

Something seems wrong. I used a 128 buffer with no issues on a 2007 MacBook Pro...No live audio going through though.

Live audio (and the processing of it) could be making the difference. But one thing I would try would be to create a new User (very easy to do), and try running your software from there, just to rule out the possibility that you've got some other background processing going on from other stuff you've installed.
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#2889914 - 11/12/17 12:14 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: DanL]
David Loving Offline
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I went through a NativeInstruments phase, have Main Stage3(?), but reverted back to sola hardware. I thought gigging with software was an unreliable hassle.
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#2889916 - 11/12/17 12:20 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Moonglow]
RudyS Offline
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Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 1975
Loc: Groningen, The netherlands
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
Originally Posted By: RudyS
Originally Posted By: Moonglow
Hardware only, don't own a single soft synth. Not that they don't intrigue me...I look at Paich and Porcaro's rig with Toto and really dig what they are doing. Similarly, I am incredibly impressed with the rig our own EscapeRocks has put together. I simply have no time to take the plunge.


Do you have a resource on that toto rig? I’m curious now.

Here ya go:

Klonk Here


Thanks!
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Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2889920 - 11/12/17 12:38 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: heavy_keys]
Al Quinn Offline
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Registered: 08/13/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Center Moriches, NY
Originally Posted By: heavy_keys
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I've ordered a set of lighter springs from my E4D because I dislike it's stiff action...I selected springs that, as best I can tell, match the action on the Mojo (which I like).

Where did you find the springs? I've been looking into sources for springs myself.

+1 smile

The company is Syntaur. My contact is Sam Mims. I bought 61 springs for $42.55. Initially, Sam sent me samples. I then used coins as weights to figure out the force needed to depress a key on my Mojo and then swapped springs in the E4D until the force was matched (i.e., using the same set of coins as weights). It's my understanding that the Mojo and E4D use the same Fatar keyboard. So, I made the assumption that only the springs are different. I hope my assumption is correct. Next I need to install the springs which isn't difficult or very time consuming.
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#2889922 - 11/12/17 12:48 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Al Quinn]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
The company is Syntaur. My contact is Sam Mims. I bought 61 springs for $42.55. Initially, Sam sent me samples. I then used coins as weights to figure out the force needed to depress a key on my Mojo and then swapped springs in the E4D until the force was matched (i.e., using the same set of coins as weights). It's my understanding that the Mojo and E4D use the same Fatar keyboard. So, I made the assumption that only the springs are different. I hope my assumption is correct. Next I need to install the springs which isn't difficult or very time consuming.

Ah. Last I checked with Syntaur, they offered springs only for the TP8-based Kurzweils, which they specifically told me would not work in Nords (TP8O)... and besides that, they didn't even have those anymore. I guess they've gotten more/other springs since then (and maybe they were wrong about the spring interchangeability?).

Yes, springs among all TP8O models should be interchangeable. Though the springs aren't the only difference. I know that on the Numa Organ 2, not only do they use a lower tension spring than on the original, they also add a felt strip that raises the landing point (shortens the throw). But the spring makes the bigger difference.
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#2889948 - 11/12/17 03:11 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
Al Quinn Offline
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Registered: 08/13/14
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Loc: Center Moriches, NY
I just swapped the springs and am now happy with the action on my Electro 4D! I don't think Syntaur has experience with the E4D. Sam sent me several samples: some fit and some did not. I think we were learning together on this.

FYI, the springs I installed are Syntaur part number KYSP27. They're much lighter than the stock Nord springs.
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Yamaha C3, '62 A100, Leslie 145, CP4, Mojo, HX3 Module, Vent 2, Electro 4D, AX Synth, SSv3, Markbass CMD 121P, Chopped Leslie 145, RCF TT08As

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#2889952 - 11/12/17 03:46 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Al Quinn]
CaptainUnderpant Offline
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VST only for about 3 years now.
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#2889954 - 11/12/17 03:51 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Al Quinn]
Stokely Offline
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Registered: 12/15/12
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Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I just swapped the springs and am now happy with the action on my Electro 4D! I don't think Syntaur has experience with the E4D. Sam sent me several samples: some fit and some did not. I think we were learning together on this.

FYI, the springs I installed are Syntaur part number KYSP27. They're much lighter than the stock Nord springs.



Whoa...very interesting. A nord electro would be almost perfect for me as an upgrade (in most ways) to my Roland vr700 (if I could sell it...), the action being one of the way it isn't an upgrade...and one of the main reasons I was hesitant on it. That's really cool to know you can change it.

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#2889960 - 11/12/17 04:27 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Stokely]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 1999
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
This thread is awesome.

Using a laptop gives you infinite sounds -- at the price of occasional hardware hassles. Using hardware means predictable results, every time. Unless your board breaks, which rarely happens.

Even without going with aftermarket springs (!)
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#2889961 - 11/12/17 04:28 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Stokely]
Aussie_Chicago Offline
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Registered: 06/24/13
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Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Keeping it as simple as I can now , Viscount KeyB legend Live > HS 1122 adaptor > 45 leslie converted to a 2 speed / 122 amp. If needed, an SV-1 on top to a DXR 10.



Edited by Aussie_Chicago (11/12/17 04:30 PM)
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#2889962 - 11/12/17 04:29 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Al Quinn]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I just swapped the springs and am now happy with the action on my Electro 4D! I don't think Syntaur has experience with the E4D. Sam sent me several samples: some fit and some did not. I think we were learning together on this.

FYI, the springs I installed are Syntaur part number KYSP27. They're much lighter than the stock Nord springs.


very useful info.
what you're experiencing is less "tight and springy" than the stock spring?
also one of the reasons (aside from price) that I've passed on Nord Electro in general.
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#2889973 - 11/12/17 05:47 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Al Quinn Offline
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Registered: 08/13/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Center Moriches, NY
Yes, less tight and springy. I used the action on my Mojo as a reference when selecting the springs for the E4D.
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Yamaha C3, '62 A100, Leslie 145, CP4, Mojo, HX3 Module, Vent 2, Electro 4D, AX Synth, SSv3, Markbass CMD 121P, Chopped Leslie 145, RCF TT08As

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#2889975 - 11/12/17 06:02 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Al Quinn]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 1999
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
Yes, less tight and springy. I used the action on my Mojo as a reference when selecting the springs for the E4D.


Way cool. Although I'm happy with my stock E4D. For now, at least smile
_________________________
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Keys: Nord Piano 2, Electro 4D, DeepMind-12
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Spider Pro, Key Largo, Vent II, X-Air 16

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#2890164 - 11/14/17 02:46 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
yannis D Offline
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Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2431
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: yannis D
As other member said, there should be another option to the poll for us using both worlds depending on the gig

I know, lots of people will do different things for different gigs, which is why I asked what people use most often. Asking what people may *ever* use would be a different poll. ;-)



You're right
But for some people -like me- it's probably 50-50, so the notion of "most often" does not apply wink
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#2890169 - 11/14/17 04:03 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: AnotherScott]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2177
Loc: NYC area
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: yannis D
As other member said, there should be another option to the poll for us using both worlds depending on the gig

I know, lots of people will do different things for different gigs, which is why I asked what people use most often. Asking what people may *ever* use would be a different poll. ;-)

I've always thought it a plus for a laptop rig that you can load it up with whatever VI & efx plugins you'd need to be covered for any gig. No need to think about what keyboards to bring or leave behind depending on the job. Minimal shlep, maximum sound – that's what the laptop does for me. I just had to work at two things: being comfortable playing piano, synth & organ parts on my little unweighted 61-key guy, and getting creative with split points & transpositions for those times I need to cover more than one part simultaneously with my single keyboard. More work on the front end, big reward (imo) at the back end – especially when I hear about my musician friends' back surgeries!

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#2890179 - 11/14/17 05:55 AM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: yannis D]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: yannis D
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: yannis D
As other member said, there should be another option to the poll for us using both worlds depending on the gig

I know, lots of people will do different things for different gigs, which is why I asked what people use most often. Asking what people may *ever* use would be a different poll. ;-)



You're right
But for some people -like me- it's probably 50-50, so the notion of "most often" does not apply wink

I knew there would be one! ;-)
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Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2890265 - 11/14/17 12:51 PM Re: POLL: Gig with hardware, computer, or both? [Re: Reezekeys]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: hag01
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
My priority is lightweight boards with decent action and operational ergonomics, and having brought those to the gig, the sounds are usually good enough that I don't need to bother with the additional complication of integrating a computer "just" for the sounds. Still, I am periodically tempted.

What is your lightweight gigging board of choice?

Everything is a compromise, so you may get a different answer if you ask on a different day. But for example, to put this in the context of what Reezekeys posted...

Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
I've always thought it a plus for a laptop rig that you can load it up with whatever VI & efx plugins you'd need to be covered for any gig. No need to think about what keyboards to bring or leave behind depending on the job. Minimal shlep, maximum sound – that's what the laptop does for me. I just had to work at two things: being comfortable playing piano, synth & organ parts on my little unweighted 61-key guy, and getting creative with split points & transpositions for those times I need to cover more than one part simultaneously with my single keyboard. More work on the front end, big reward (imo) at the back end – especially when I hear about my musician friends' back surgeries!

Even if I was up for doing a gig on a single board, personally, I wouldn't really enjoy doing it on a 61, either from the perspective of having enough keys for piano or for having enough keys to effectively split without frustration. (I understand, 61 can also be fine for many, it's just not right for me.) So let's say I use a Kurzweil Artis7, which has a 76 key action that I'm okay using for piano as well as organ/synth, decent set of real-time controls, good patch selection, and good MIDI controller functionality. Good choice, right? Well, the sounds in it are mostly good enough for my purposes, so my motivation to add a laptop is reduced, as it only adds to rather than reduces my schlep and setup time.

It is slightly chunky at almost 28 lbs, though. I wish there were more lighter weight 7x options. I'm not happy enough with the actions of the FA-07 or Krome-73, nor do they have all the MIDI functionality of the Artis7 (like the 9 sliders), so the trade-off is pretty noticeable even if I were to use it primarily as a controller. So if I were going to go the one-board-and-a-laptop route, I might go for the Numa Compact 2... super lightweight, 88 keys, decent action, aftertouch. But then I still have to add things if I want, for example, drawbar controls or other knobs for real-time tweaking. And I'd probably need a tablet (unless my laptop were also my tablet) for effective patch selection. Regardless, it's not a "toss it up and start playing" kind of thing, as a self-contained board is. So to some extent, my hesitation toward looking at a single board plus a laptop as a super-efficient setup comes from the dearth of good lightweight controllers that have more than 61 keys.

I'm also lazy about setting things up ahead of time. ;-) But no back surgeries for me. Even the 28 lb Artis7 is getting to the edge of what I'm willing to cart around. We're lucky that we can get such good sound and functionality out of some pretty back-friendly boards.

Which brings me to the Nords. If you don't mind the price tag, there's a lot I like in the ergonomics, but there are also areas that could use some sonic shoring up, and then, depending on what you need, you may kind of have to weigh laptop (maybe iPad) vs a 2nd board.

As for 61-key all-rounders, I like the MOXF6... better action than the low-cost Rolands/Korgs, very flexible, good sounds, and while it can be tricky to figure out how to do what you want, more often than not, once you figure it out, it's actually pretty easy to do. Or at least it has been for the things I needed to do. A MOXF7 would be killer, esp. if it had aftertouch.

My favorite 88, after all this time, is still my old Casio PX-500L, I just really like that action. Sometimes I'll use its internal sounds, sometimes I'll MIDI it up to trigger sounds from another board. (I use an Anatek Pocket Curve to compensate for its almost DX7-like resistance to putting out velocities over 100.) I've gone to other 88s, but always seem to end up coming back to this one.

I've also made my peace with playing piano from non hammer action boards, no longer believing that the best semi-weighted are always going to be inferior to the worst weighted boards for piano. I've used Kurzweil Artis7 (with lighter springs) and the Nord Electro 5D for piano and been okay with it.
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