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#2889391 - 11/09/17 03:05 PM Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122?
Jefsong Offline
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Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
The DCM-122 came out a few years ago but I haven't heard much about it since then. Currently my beloved SK2 needs a new motherboard and it will cost nearly as much to buy the DMC-122 to fix it. When I purchased the SK2 it was perfect for my live rig since I use the second manual exclusively for triggering soft synths and other midi related duties. The DMC-122 looks perfect for that but before I pull the trigger I am concerned that I don't hear anyone talking about it much here. I am sure this has been talked about in this forum but if anyone has any experience with it I'd really like to hear from you. Thanks for any information you all can provide.
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#2889395 - 11/09/17 03:58 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Jefsong]
Sven Golly Offline
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#2889399 - 11/09/17 04:13 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Sven Golly]
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Tried to make that link 5 mins ago and forgot the syntax with the ubb link making tool.
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#2889439 - 11/09/17 08:34 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
JohnSC Offline
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Registered: 04/04/15
Posts: 36
Loc: South Carolina
I've owned both. Played through a Leslie 3300, both organ voices are quite good. Through a SpaceStation, the other voices range from quite adequate to surprisingly good. I found the form factor of the DMC superior because of the mod wheels, and a big plus for the synth voicing. And the DMC was conceived as a MIDI device and the setup is straight forward, although both are quite capable. And the DMC is a little shorter for transporting.

Someone wrote here elsewhere that the SK2 sounded better for jazz, and the DMC (VB3II) was stronger for rock. There's some truth to that, although it's a fine distinction. Both are fine instruments.


Edited by JohnSC (11/09/17 08:42 PM)
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#2889452 - 11/09/17 09:16 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: JohnSC]
GordoTheGreek Offline
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Registered: 04/26/16
Posts: 199
Seems like a good idea...


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#2889478 - 11/10/17 04:01 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Jefsong]
Synthoid Offline
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Lightweight, built-in speakers.... But only two drawbars. frown


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#2889507 - 11/10/17 06:23 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Synthoid]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 231
Loc: Massachusetts
One of the threads in the search that Sven linked above will be one discussing live use of the DMC-122/Gemini where I had asked some questions about controlling the DMC/Gemini with Setlist Maker/BendHelper on IOS to make up for what I perceived as a sub-par UI for live use. I havenít been back to update that thread due to some unplanned travel and a surgery/hospital stay, but I will quickly say here that I got the answers I needed from Guido and it can be done, and works well. And at this point I canít imagine using it live any other way. So Iíll get my act together and bump that thread with how to do it.

But to chime in here and respond to Jefsongís questions, Iíve had the DMC/Gemini for several weeks now and Iím pretty impressed with it overall. Iím assuming youíre talking about DMC/Gemini combo as thatís a more direct comparison with the SK2. I havenít played a Mojo or Legend, and itís been a long time since I touched an SK1 to compare the keybeds, but I do have a digital CX-3 and a VR-700 to compare to. The DMC keybed is heavier than the VR-700, and about the same as the CX-3 (which I think makes sense, as I believe theyíre both TP-4O). I think itís a good balance for both organ and the other sounds in the Gemini, and I got used to it very quickly. The DMC is a very flexible controller, and Iím pretty sure you could set it up in just about any way you can imagine to either control the Gemini or external sounds. But flexibility brings complexity, so expect to spend some time on dialing in an initial group of setups that work the way you want. Itís essentially a bifurcated interface where you control the DMC with a PC/Mac app and the Gemini with a web browser and your settings tie the two together for actual playing. But once youíve done that, I donít think youíd need do it often. Plus GSI includes some example setups to work from.

As for sounds, I think theyíre pretty fantastic. The organ is top notch. Just look all the threads discussing the Mojo, itís the same organ. I have a Vent, and havenít even felt the need to bring it. The modeled clavs and EPs are killer. The virtual analog is no slouch at all either. As mentioned in some of the Mojo threads, the sampled acoustic piano is noticeably weaker than the modeled sounds, but thatís not to say itís bad. I have no hesitations about playing it live. So thatís basically my $.02. Iíve started using only the DMC/Gemini live instead of multiple boards plus Vent, T&F, etc. Itís simplified my rig considerably. Oh, and BTW - the Mojo Dual trolley bag (the current one, not the older model bag) fits the DMC like a glove.

Hope that helps.
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#2890007 - 11/13/17 04:06 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
Franky B Offline
Member

Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 2
Hi all,
I am also very interested in the DMC/Gemini combo, although it is probably way above my playing skills. But I still hope to find some time besides the job to work on that during the next years or decades ... Unfortunately, there is no dealer in my area (Europe) where I could try the DMC before buying it. So I consider to order it online from Italy, and worst case to send it back after some days if it is totally unpleasant.

I am wondering if there are any more details on the WiFi connection available. Does anyone know how strong or hopefully not strong the signal is? First, it should not influence the audio section; second, it is normally not recommended to sit too close to a WiFi router (and believe it or not, I deactivated the faster n-standard on my router and kept it at b+g, as I can feel the n-traffic - it causes pain in my head). Is there any data on the signal strength? How does it compare to a WiFi router/AP? You can reduce the signal power of modern WiFI routers in the settings, but this does not seem to be the case for the Gemini.

Finally, am I right assuming that when you have the Gemini as the DMC expansion module, you can play it from another Midi source by using the Midi in of the DMC (USB or DIN) and select the Midi Forward option from "In" to "Int"?

Many thanks, Frank

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#2890031 - 11/13/17 07:16 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Franky B]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 231
Loc: Massachusetts
Frank,

I have no info on the strength of the WiFi access point in the Gemini in terms of power, but the manual states that it has a range of 5-10 meters/30 feet. So I would guess itís not as strong as a normal stand alone WiFi access point. Thereís also no external antenna.

Youíre correct about the MIDI usage of the Gemini DMC expansion module. Thatís precisely how Iím sending patch change messages to the Gemini from my iPad through the DMC.
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#2890047 - 11/13/17 09:19 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
teashea Offline
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Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
There is a good review of it on Sweetwater in the comments section. It seems quite appealing on the surface but there are a lot of drawbacks. The price is quite attractive but ....

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#2890142 - 11/13/17 05:33 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: teashea]
Jefsong Offline
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Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Thank you for all the responses. I have another related question: I went ahead and downloaded the VB3 demo to see if I liked it. I tried to use the SK2 as the controller and it seems I can't map the controls properly. The SK2 seems to send the same CC# on almost every knob. I was just wondering if there was a solution for this.
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#2890149 - 11/13/17 06:56 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Jefsong]
mate stubb Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Jefsong
Thank you for all the responses. I have another related question: I went ahead and downloaded the VB3 demo to see if I liked it. I tried to use the SK2 as the controller and it seems I can't map the controls properly. The SK2 seems to send the same CC# on almost every knob. I was just wondering if there was a solution for this.


Not an easy solution. The Hammond packs multiple drawbars into a single CC in a stupid scheme that causes problems interfacing with anybody else. There may be some remapping software around to unpack the Hammond messages, but I haven't seen it in a good while.
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#2890160 - 11/14/17 12:59 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: mate stubb]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb

Not an easy solution. The Hammond packs multiple drawbars into a single CC in a stupid scheme that causes problems interfacing with anybody else. There may be some remapping software around to unpack the Hammond messages, but I haven't seen it in a good while.

Well the HX3 module does it, Apple do it in their Logic Vintage Organ AU and the B-5 VI also has mapping for XK's and SK's.

Things have moved on since GSI last updated VB3 in 2011.
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#2890168 - 11/14/17 03:44 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Markay]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 354
Loc: Charlotte, NC
I looked long and hard at this before I bought my Legend Live.

I think you will find the organ is a step up from the SK2 absolutely. Better organ tones, C/V and Leslie sim.

The extra tones on the Gemini modules are also excellent - the rhodes and clav are excellent. Wurly is good. Virtual analog is good. Piano may or may not be usable in its current form, but a great module.

Getting an extra set of drawbars over the SK2 is nice.

I didn't like the design of the DMC-122 or how it is not very well integrated with the Gemini. You mentally have to approach this as a controller and a module as two separate pieces and there are some limits to it from a setup standpoint.

I didn't like the look of it.

If Crumar ever updated their Mojo to a DSP based dual manual instrument with all of the Gemini capabilities internal, more along their lines of their approach to the Mojo61, I would have bought that over the Viscount Legend, but they haven't done that.
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#2890181 - 11/14/17 06:15 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: jeffinpghpa]
teashea Offline
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Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
The problem that the 122 faces is that there are so many excellent toneclones around. Why fuss with the need for the complexity of setting up a 122 when one can buy an integrated system? There is also the issue of looks - which admittedly is subjective.

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#2890183 - 11/14/17 06:24 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: teashea]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 231
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: teasha
The problem that the 122 faces is that there are so many excellent toneclones around. Why fuss with the need for the complexity of setting up a 122 when one can buy an integrated system? There is also the issue of looks - which admittedly is subjective.

I'll tell you a big reason I went with it over the SK2: The DMC/Gemini can put a non-organ sound on each manual. The SK2 can't. I went through my band's setlists and identified all the songs where I needed something like clav on the bottom and synth lead on the top, or EP on the bottom, strings on the top, etc. There were enough of them where I decided that capability was a requirement for me and ruled out the SK2.

Regarding the looks, I admit I don't like how it looks very much. For some reason every else in my band thinks it looks great. I don't get it. Who knows, maybe if Crumar eventually comes out with the two DSP Mojo upgrade jeffinpghpa mentioned, I'll trade up. But for now, I don't think there's another dual manual clonewheel that can do what the DMC/Gemini combo does.
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#2890215 - 11/14/17 09:28 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
Franky B Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 2
Has anyone been using the DMC without the Gemini on a more long term basis?

I found Dave Osoff's post in this thread, where he has used the DMC with the HX3 module (before the Gemini was released?) and a Korg Kronos on top: http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2550384/7

For a home based set-up, I am also considering using it with an external Workstation on top. Just wondering how "playable" the third manual and how easy the settings can be changed on the workstation on top/behind, considering the height and distance.

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#2890219 - 11/14/17 09:45 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Franky B]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Posts: 354
Loc: Charlotte, NC
I play seated (not standing up) and I'm not particularly tall. I just can't find a setup that works for me with a keyboard on top of my dual manual Legend Live, so I go with the L configuration when I play organ and gig. Can't get a good reach over the top unless I'm standing up. oh well....
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#2890225 - 11/14/17 10:01 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: teashea]
DaveMcM Offline
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Loc: Cincy, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: teasha
There is a good review of it on Sweetwater in the comments section. It seems quite appealing on the surface but there are a lot of drawbacks. The price is quite attractive but ....


I went and read that review after you mentioned it. I really don't agree the statement "there are a lot of drawbacks". I think you are basing that on the review at Sweetwater and if so, a lot of what this fellow stated are purely personal opinions. And that's cool, not everybody likes the same things. But other than the shipping damage that he experienced, which is a shame, what he wrote were just personal opinions. Several of his comments, i.e. the button assignment for rotary speed change and velocity on/off are easily remapped. Maybe if the unit hadn't arrived damaged, and if he had spent a bit more time reading the manual and learning the instrument, he may have ended up with a different view. The panel layout might not work for him, but I am nothing but elated with the DMC-122/Gemini, from function and feel to sound. I have no complaints with the editors for the DMC or Gemini. The comment regarding the space-hogging sliders is another example of not reading the manual. The entire list can be collapsed with a single tap and then you can open each page individually making the UI much cleaner looking and easier to navigate. Sure there are things I would like to see added of changed, but for me and others, it is quite usable the way it is.

Of course these are just my personal opinions so there you go. smile


Edited by DaveMcM (11/14/17 10:03 AM)
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#2890322 - 11/14/17 04:47 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: DaveMcM]
LX88 Offline
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I ordered a Crumar Mojo 61 last spring.

I was really hoping that the EP's would be useful to me. Unfortunately, this was not the case. The sounds were just not to my taste.

There is sort of a "purist" approach going on with the EP sounds. Plus, the tones of the "reed" EP ( Wurli) only extend to the notes on the original Wurlie. Which for me was frustrating, actually. I am not that much of a purist.

So, I would suggest that you try to hear a Mojo or the module before you buy one, if you are looking for sounds beyond the Hammond organ sample.

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#2890325 - 11/14/17 05:02 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: LX88]
Jazz+ Offline
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Love the Mojo 61 Rhodes; agree the Wurly range cut off is very troublesome and doesnít have to be that way. Crazy
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#2890353 - 11/14/17 09:09 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Jazz+]
JohnSC Offline
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Registered: 04/04/15
Posts: 36
Loc: South Carolina
I would agree that the Sweetwater review certainly has not been my experience with the DMC-122. Like I said, I've owned the SK2 and the DMC. Both good instruments with excellent organs.

I also disagree that the DMC is a step up from the SK2 as an organ. I played both through a 3300 Leslie, and they're different but neither is the equal of my B3 through my 122. They are both excellent, but not a tonewheel organ. So, don't expect that and you will be pleased with your purchase.

And the Gemini is as important to the DMC as a Leslie is to a B3. Don't leave home without it.

One distinction between the organs that I would add to what I wrote earlier. I really preferred the stereo out to my Spacestation with the non-organ sounds. The SK2 can do this and feed the 3300 with a the eight-pin cable. To feed the Leslie, the DMC uses one of the two DSP outputs, which means the other voices are monaural, which defeats the purpose of the Spacestation's surround effect.

The SK2 is not without virtue and certainly not a step down, in my experience of having owned both for more than a year. Just one voice from someone who has owned and played both extensively, even side by side for several months.


Edited by JohnSC (11/14/17 09:20 PM)
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#2890358 - 11/14/17 09:31 PM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: JohnSC]
JohnSC Offline
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Registered: 04/04/15
Posts: 36
Loc: South Carolina
One more thing. The editor on the DMC is terrific. I remember the wows that it received when Al Beck did his post on YouTube. Every sound can be edited with a smartphone, tablet or desktop. Quite easy to overwrite the sounds in the sample setup and then store those to be recalled for a setlist, for example. It does have a learning curve, but it's worth mastering.
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#2890406 - 11/15/17 06:45 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: Jefsong]
bourniplus Offline
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Loc: Quťbec
Originally Posted By: Jefsong
Currently my beloved SK2 needs a new motherboard


Not to derail the thread but could you expand a bit on this? I kind of have an SK1 on my radar and this has me wondering.
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#2890409 - 11/15/17 06:51 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: JohnSC]
teashea Offline
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Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
Originally Posted By: JohnSC
I would agree that the Sweetwater review certainly has not been my experience with the DMC-122. Like I said, I've owned the SK2 and the DMC. Both good instruments with excellent organs.

I also disagree that the DMC is a step up from the SK2 as an organ. I played both through a 3300 Leslie, and they're different but neither is the equal of my B3 through my 122. They are both excellent, but not a tonewheel organ. So, don't expect that and you will be pleased with your purchase.

And the Gemini is as important to the DMC as a Leslie is to a B3. Don't leave home without it.

One distinction between the organs that I would add to what I wrote earlier. I really preferred the stereo out to my Spacestation with the non-organ sounds. The SK2 can do this and feed the 3300 with a the eight-pin cable. To feed the Leslie, the DMC uses one of the two DSP outputs, which means the other voices are monaural, which defeats the purpose of the Spacestation's surround effect.

The SK2 is not without virtue and certainly not a step down, in my experience of having owned both for more than a year. Just one voice from someone who has owned and played both extensively, even side by side for several months.



It certainly does show that players can have different reactions to a piece of equipment. I think that this is intensified by the fact that there are so many good pieces of gear. The quality level is so high that slight differences can result in very different opinions. It is good to hear a variety of opinions like yours, in comparison to the Sweetwater review.

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#2890416 - 11/15/17 07:08 AM Re: Thinking of replacing my SK2 with a DCM-122? [Re: teashea]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 354
Loc: Charlotte, NC
I thought it would be painful to give up all of the Gemini "extra sounds", which are mostly VERY good EPs, clav and VA synth when I went with the "one trick pony" Legend Live.

In reality, I'm pretty darn happy with what my iPad is capable of doing these days... Neo Soul Keys Studio, Ravenscroft 275 iOs, Poison synth, etc. I'm having some glorious fun with using that lower manual as a controller when I want to. I bring an iPad on the gig anyway, so plugging in a Korg Plug Key and another output is really not a big deal at all.
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