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#2889312 - 11/09/17 06:19 AM It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello...
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK


Why?

* I tried the Tyros briefly in a couple of live situations last week, and everything iMissRichardTee has said about his own experiences instantly came back to me. Quite clearly, the Tyros is a board which is optimised for home playing.

* For next year's Joni Mitchell tribute gigs, I'm going to need a board which will allow me to add convincing strings, sax and flutes and double guitars where needed. This has all those in spades. I might even conceivably get away with using this as my only board on that project.

* After many years of procrastinating, I finally sold a very fine handmade acoustic guitar which was a university gift from my mum. It was difficult parting with it but I'm really no guitarist and it has been basically sitting in a case for years.

* The PA4X is compact and versatile enough to also use as top in a two-keyboard rig when I need more than Piano/Hammond/Rhodes and Wurli. So I will also be able to sell on my Kurz PC361.

The flexibility of the thing is impressive – you can get really deep on editing. And the KAOSS stuff in the v2 software is also a hell of a lot of fun. From the characteristics of the sound so far, I'm pretty confident that the arranger stuff will sound excellent through a PA.
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KC Island
#2889313 - 11/09/17 06:24 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthoid Online   content
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Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
She's a beauty Aidan. Reminiscent of the Oasys design.

Wish I could audition one but most stores here have thinned out their high-end keyboard stock. frown
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#2889315 - 11/09/17 06:51 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthoid]
cgiles Offline
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Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 220
Interesting. As a musician who can actually play, I'm surprised to see you choose an arranger keyboard as your (potential) 'main ax'. Practicality aside, that's a pretty brave thing to do in the face of potential ridicule and ostracism (from fellow 'pro' musicians smile ). I applaud your objectivity and courage. Although I've never taken one to a gig (always played in classic organ trio(+) ), I have owned a number of them dating back to the Roland G800. For me, they were always a 'fun thing', but over the years they have evolved (improved) to the point of being a perfectly legitimate choice as a professional gig instrument. Congrats.

chas
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#2889317 - 11/09/17 07:11 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: cgiles]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Well, even putting aside the arranger functionality for a moment, it's a seriously good sounding keyboard. Not as deep as a Kronos, for sure, but then it boots a bit quicker too! And if you can make something sound good, I don't really think other musicians will give a stuff, to be honest. I'll probably end up using the CP4 as well, if only to build some redundancy into the rig but for stuff like local radio promo slots and rehearsals, this will cover all the necessary ground. And we can even end the rehearsal with a singalong of Girl From Ipanema.
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#2889320 - 11/09/17 07:22 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Six-string-man Offline
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Registered: 08/06/13
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I never quite understood people looking down their noses at arrangers. Granted, they can make an inexperienced player sound better, but if you dig into them a bit, they are very deep, and in the right hands are capable of amazing things.
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#2889330 - 11/09/17 07:45 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Six-string-man]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
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The problem I have with the arranger is that I would not use 95% of the short cuts, canned parts, rhythms, patterns, etc, etc.

All that stuff and buttons that comprises that hefty price tag of an arranger.

I do like and greatly appreciate realistic articulation of wind, reed and brass instruments.
I know that the arrangers do a much better job delivering on that.

But that alone, is not enough to convince me to drop $3000, $4000 etc.

I can say this with fair accuracy, almost all ( non arrange) keyboards over $1200 sound good, dam good, or simply excellent.

As a more creative type and with a practical side , the arranger is simply not for me.

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#2889331 - 11/09/17 07:54 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Six-string-man]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
Not as deep as a Kronos, for sure, but then it boots a bit quicker too!

A lot lighter for 7x keys, too. What's the action like? Is it the same action that's in the Kronos 61?

I know very little about arrangers. The Pa3XLe caught my attention just for being a 7x-key board with aftertouch that weighs under 30 lbs (a configuration I wish existed for the Kronos). I *very* briefly played the MicroArranger and found it pretty confusing! But it's probably foolish for someone who has never played an arranger to think he can get very far without spending some time with a manual.

Originally Posted By: Six-string-man
I never quite understood people looking down their noses at arrangers.

I'm thinking that might be more of an American thing? And probably undeserved.
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#2889334 - 11/09/17 08:03 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: AnotherScott]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Scott, the action is pretty good – a little more sprung and resistant than the Kronos 61 (they had one in the same shop, so was able to compare) but not majorly so.

Yes, if you're not going to use the arranger functions, this probably is overkill for the other stuff but as a dual purpose keyboard, it does pretty well.
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#2889338 - 11/09/17 08:32 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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I think the attitude is the price of the flagship arrangers for accompaniment features that players don't want or need when playing in a band. There's also the stigma of older and lower end arrangers really sounding corny, as well as the style patterns being the antithesis of originality. These are the perceptions, whether founded/agreed upon or not.

That said, lbs for lbs feature for feature some of the best sounds and fx the developers have available are included in these arranger lines.
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#2889365 - 11/09/17 11:57 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Barryjam Offline
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Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 261
Loc: Auburn, Northern CA
Aidan,

I've never played an arranger. So, a lot of Joni songs have beautiful AP and strings/horns playing lines that cannot physically be played simultaneously in real time. Will you have pre-recorded segments that you originally played or will you switch parts live? e.g. piano no longer played during the string lines?
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#2889390 - 11/09/17 02:50 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Barryjam]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Barry, I've not really decided yet – rehearsals begin early next year so perhaps ideas will be better formed by then – I certainly hope so!

At the moment, I'm thinking about signature bits like the flutes on the intro to Free Man In Paris or the woodwind ensemble 'hook' in Edith and the Kingpin, for example. I don't initially envisage running anything pre-recorded but I could see that working for, say, an orchestral version of Both Sides Now.

As far as cost is concerned, if I'd have bought a Montage 7, I'm not sure whether anybody would have batted an eyelid. I actually paid around £500 less than the current asking price of the Yamaha. Sure, it's not a direct comparison, but the quality of voices is very close and the quality of construction is actually better.
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#2889408 - 11/09/17 05:09 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan

As far as cost is concerned, if I'd have bought a Montage 7, I'm not sure whether anybody would have batted an eyelid.


I agree with this, Aidan. Everyone would have cheered you on. Unless, of course, you sold your CP4 again. wink
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#2889418 - 11/09/17 06:37 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: davedoerfler]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Don't misinterpret my post above, guys. I cheered Aidan on with his Tyros acquisition and having studied up a bit on the new Yamaha Genos, I definitely see the effort they and Korg are putting into these top of the line instruments. There are definitely people who know a lot more about arrangers than most on this board that feel the PA4X is still ahead in the game. So for sure, totally supportive of this pick.

I was just suggesting why most of the naysayers around here and in the US are not down with (or up on) the arrangers. And I think it's for the reasons mentioned - price, focus on the accompaniment features band players and traditional pianists don't want, experience with the patterns and sounds being corny on dated instruments. But at the same time, they are really capable instruments loaded with some of the developers best sounds and fx with plenty of horsepower for polyphony, layering, etc. Congrats on the PA4X! I think given time on one, most would like to add it to their collection. And obviously, particularly useful to one man and duo type acts.
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#2889466 - 11/10/17 12:36 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
No worries, Elmer, I wasn't getting bent out of shape at all, just trying to add some context on the price aspect.
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#2889695 - 11/11/17 12:47 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Worth Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
Hi Aidan . Congrats on your purchase . I too have just bought the 4x after owning the 1x for 10 years . It’s awesome and the sounds are excellent especially the dnc sounds . I hope it fits your needs for your up coming project . Best wishes

Worth

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#2889723 - 11/11/17 08:08 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Worth]
Synthaholic Offline
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Congrats, Aiden! I'm days away from also buying a PA4X. I still haven't pulled the trigger due to not being able to find some basic info. I did see that the latest OS upgrade now includes the ability to save SPLIT points with each Keyboard Set (Setup/Multi/Mix/Combi) instead of Globally. This is a bit worrying to me, that this is done as an afterthought in an upgrade, when things like this have been done for decades, including Korg keyboards. So it makes me wonder what other elementary, basic functions are not implemented. On a $4,000 keyboard.

If you or any other PA4X owners wouldn't mind a few questions, it would help me tremendously. Because my guy at Sweetwater is also having trouble finding the answers.
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#2889784 - 11/11/17 01:59 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
I'm happy to help if I can...however, bear in mind that I'm about three days into ownership and still learning about the keyboard myself! Also, with my Germany trip looming, I probably won't get the chance to go much deeper with it for about a week or so. What are your principal concerns?
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#2889797 - 11/11/17 03:47 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Congrats, Aiden! I'm days away from also buying a PA4X. I still haven't pulled the trigger due to not being able to find some basic info. I did see that the latest OS upgrade now includes the ability to save SPLIT points with each Keyboard Set (Setup/Multi/Mix/Combi) instead of Globally. This is a bit worrying to me, that this is done as an afterthought in an upgrade, when things like this have been done for decades, including Korg keyboards. So it makes me wonder what other elementary, basic functions are not implemented. On a $4,000 keyboard.

If you or any other PA4X owners wouldn't mind a few questions, it would help me tremendously. Because my guy at Sweetwater is also having trouble finding the answers.


Are you sure about this? I have been saving custom split points for a few years now with my Pa900. There's a check box for "Use Global" or a custom range that can be defined. I'm not certain as I type away from the keyboard whether it is saved in the STS or in the Style itself. But it has been there for a while.

Regards,

Jerry

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#2889817 - 11/11/17 07:35 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: jerrythek]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Great choice, Aidan !

I've been impressed with the Korg PAs since first hearing demos of the Pa2x's various advanced articulations. And who cares if you're not utilizing the arranger functions? It's a dynamic and expressive instrument for live performance; that's what matters. I almost never used the recording functions in the Motif, and have never used the Kronos' sequencer.

So, enjoy !
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#2889820 - 11/11/17 08:11 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: allan_evett]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Loc: USA, greater NY area
Korg: All About Arrangers

http://www.korg.com/us/features/arrangers/

Includes their lineup
Global Sound and Style Shop
10 feature tutorials
links to some bonusware
A few schematics



Sound walk through:
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#2889830 - 11/11/17 11:20 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Worth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
Regarding split points . You can save as many different keyboard split points as you like in your keyboard sets and save them in your song book . Just call them back up under the song book and tvecunstrument will automatically be configured how you saved it . That applies for sounds and styles and even effects . Literally any settings you have saved through song book can be instantly recalled .

This is from the latest manual


“The local split point can be memorized into a Keyboard Set. Each Keyboard Set associated to a Style or SongBook Entry can have a different split point.
▪ Write the changes to a Keyboard Set.

Memorize the local split point
The local split point can be memorized into a Keyboard Set. Each Keyboard Set associated to a Style or SongBook Entry can have a different split point.
▪ Write the changes to a Keyboard Set. Changing the global split point
The global split point is both the general setting you use when there is no ‘local’ split, and a ‘template’ from which to start setting the various local split points saved into the Keyboard Sets. You can change it and use it as the main split point of the instrument. Some Keyboard Sets might override the global split point with their memorized local split points.
Change the global split point
1 Go to the Global > Mode Preferences > Style page.
As an alternative, keep the SHIFT button pressed and press the STYLE PLAY
button to open the Style page.
2 Touch the keyboard diagram in the display, then play the lowest note of the Upper (right hand) part on the keyboard.
As an alternative, touch the Split Point parameter to select it, and use the VALUE controls to select the new split point.
3 Press the EXIT button to return to the previous page.
Customizing the Keyboard Sets “

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#2889939 - 11/12/17 02:34 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: AnotherScott]
heavy_keys Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/10/16
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
What's the action like? Is it the same action that's in the Kronos 61?

...It has nothing to do with the Kronos. The arranger lines, be it Korg or ex-Roland golden age (E86/96, G600/800/1000, etc.), are/were engineered and manufactured in Italy. The actions are, o course, Fatar. For example, in G800/1000 and PA2/3/4X PRO you find something like the TP8S (possible different variations, as the black ones in PA are matte like the TP8piano's). PA3XLE probably has TP8SK, similar to TP8HO (shorter, rounded black keys). G600 had a TP9 version, nothing like the japanese XP50/60/80 of those times. An exception would be the japanese Korg arrangers i3/30 which had some Yamaha SF or SFX like Trinity/Triton/Tyros/EX/Motif (the best IMO).


Edited by heavy_keys (11/13/17 03:57 AM)
Edit Reason: Accuracy

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#2889946 - 11/12/17 03:02 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: heavy_keys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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...and yet some actions are used by both Korg Japan and Korg Italy, like the RH3.
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#2889964 - 11/12/17 04:42 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: AnotherScott]
heavy_keys Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/10/16
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
...and yet some actions are used by both Korg Japan and Korg Italy, like the RH3.

I don't know what italian Korg has RH3 but I know for sure that japanese X3 and N364 had TP9. Of course there are exceptions...

I can also imagine that Fatar versions made for Korg and Roland were not exactly the standard ones...

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#2889971 - 11/12/17 05:27 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: AnotherScott]
heavy_keys Offline
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Registered: 02/10/16
Posts: 30
I think we all love SFX for their balance, instead of spring resistance like the cheaper ones and that's obviously because of the small mechanism beneath, recreating a miniaturized hammer effect, without heaving a spring in the back and a small weight in front. I kind of felt that on Roland XP series, with their metal plates glued beneath the keys but I wonder: can this be achieved by changing the springs with lighter/softer ones on TP9?

Scott, I know you did that on your Artis 7. How does it feel?

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#2889977 - 11/12/17 06:16 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: heavy_keys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: heavy_keys
I don't know what italian Korg has RH3

SV1

Originally Posted By: heavy_keys
I know you did that on your Artis 7. How does it feel?

I have Syntaur's lighter Kurz replacement springs on my Artis7, and I think it's great.
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#2889990 - 11/12/17 08:07 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: jerrythek]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: jerrythek
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Congrats, Aiden! I'm days away from also buying a PA4X. I still haven't pulled the trigger due to not being able to find some basic info. I did see that the latest OS upgrade now includes the ability to save SPLIT points with each Keyboard Set (Setup/Multi/Mix/Combi) instead of Globally. This is a bit worrying to me, that this is done as an afterthought in an upgrade, when things like this have been done for decades, including Korg keyboards. So it makes me wonder what other elementary, basic functions are not implemented. On a $4,000 keyboard.

If you or any other PA4X owners wouldn't mind a few questions, it would help me tremendously. Because my guy at Sweetwater is also having trouble finding the answers.


Are you sure about this? I have been saving custom split points for a few years now with my Pa900. There's a check box for "Use Global" or a custom range that can be defined. I'm not certain as I type away from the keyboard whether it is saved in the STS or in the Style itself. But it has been there for a while.

Regards,

Jerry


I found this in the new section, HERE, about the latest OS upgrade:

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#2889991 - 11/12/17 08:20 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Aidan
I'm happy to help if I can...however, bear in mind that I'm about three days into ownership and still learning about the keyboard myself! Also, with my Germany trip looming, I probably won't get the chance to go much deeper with it for about a week or so. What are your principal concerns?


It's simple stuff that the manual doesn't cover well.

Can you assign your LOWER (or any other MIDI channel, for that matter) to the alternate L&R outputs, on a Keyboard Set level, or is it only Globally? I'm thinking of left hand bass, routed to it's own channel in a mixer, for example.

The main screen displays the programs for the 1 LOWER and 3 UPPER channels. Can you go to other screens and see all the other MIDI channels in the same way? If I'm converting a bunch of my MIDI sequences it would be so much faster assigning Korg sounds with the touchscreen.

Thanks!
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The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2890034 - 11/13/17 07:24 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Can you assign your LOWER (or any other MIDI channel, for that matter) to the alternate L&R outputs, on a Keyboard Set level, or is it only Globally? I'm thinking of left hand bass, routed to it's own channel in a mixer, for example.


I found this in the manual:

Quote:
Sounds from each part or track of the keyboard, the Style or MIDI Songs, as
well as each Drum family, can be sent to a separate audio output. This routing
is global, and will not change when choosing a different Keyboard Set,
Style or Song.


So it looks like the answer to that one is no, global only. I think Korg views the main uses for this feature as either for someone playing LH bass throughout a show, and wants it going to separate amplification, or sending the metronome out in song playback to act as a click for the band.

Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
The main screen displays the programs for the 1 LOWER and 3 UPPER channels. Can you go to other screens and see all the other MIDI channels in the same way? If I'm converting a bunch of my MIDI sequences it would be so much faster assigning Korg sounds with the touchscreen.


I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. You can go into the 'multitrack' mode in Sequencer play and channels and their programs are displayed there, if that answers your question?
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#2890110 - 11/13/17 02:17 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Aidan
I found this in the manual:

Quote:
Sounds from each part or track of the keyboard, the Style or MIDI Songs, as
well as each Drum family, can be sent to a separate audio output. This routing
is global, and will not change when choosing a different Keyboard Set,
Style or Song.


So it looks like the answer to that one is no, global only. I think Korg views the main uses for this feature as either for someone playing LH bass throughout a show, and wants it going to separate amplification, or sending the metronome out in song playback to act as a click for the band.


Well that stinks. It should be selectable per Setup. I guess the logical way, for me, would be to run all the drums through the alternate L&R. I think it would sound less "in the box" if you could get the drums out of the keyboard mix. And I guess another way would be to run MIDI channel 1 as only acoustic piano, and route that to it's own mixer channels.


Originally Posted By: Aidan
I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. You can go into the 'multitrack' mode in Sequencer play and channels and their programs are displayed there, if that answers your question?


Probably. On the main screen you get this:




Touching Concert Grand gets you this:




Can you do this with all 16 MIDI channels? The only screen I've seen in any of these videos is this main screen with the 3 UPPERS and 1 LOWER. I'm assuming they are assigned MIDI Channels 1-4? I don't know. But I want to assign 5-16 with the same ease if I'm moving all of my SMF over to all-Korg sounds.

Thanks for this.
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#2890118 - 11/13/17 02:43 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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I'm also thinking this will sound great through my Spacestation!
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#2890195 - 11/14/17 07:04 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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Aidan - are you connecting with that keybed and the acoustic piano? Would you consider the keybed more piano-like or more synth-like? I'm hoping the latter.

I've been thinking of songs I know just from listening to them hundreds of times over the years that I could probably add to my repertoire right off the bat using just a Style. A handful of Sinatra songs come to mind that don't have distinctive Nelson Riddle arrangements, like 'Learnin' The Blues'.




I think the PA4X will also come in handy in a month when I play a lot of Christmas parties. I absolutely hate playing Christmas carols but depending on the variety of Styles it might be a lot less painful this year. wink
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The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

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#2892384 - 11/25/17 01:02 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan


Why?

* I tried the Tyros briefly in a couple of live situations last week, and everything iMissRichardTee has said about his own experiences instantly came back to me. Quite clearly, the Tyros is a board which is optimised for home playing.

* For next year's Joni Mitchell tribute gigs, I'm going to need a board which will allow me to add convincing strings, sax and flutes and double guitars where needed. This has all those in spades. I might even conceivably get away with using this as my only board on that project.





And Mr Tee asks:

(Now don't be throwing things at me, but believe it or not my love and hate for tyros continues!)

But I wanted to ask your thoughts on, for starters, the ac piano.. I guess the concert grand.
What is your take on playing it? Because carrying an 88 is becoming an issue .. I have two choices, either my Roland G6
or the Tyros 4. I have been opting for T4.
I have such mixed up feelings about the piano. Although the two octave piano is actually quite useful for Latin style playing! To be honest, that 2 oct piano, actually shines whenever I take a quasi Latin type solo. I am soloing with one note only, but being in doubled octaves is very cool.

But back to meat and potatoes concert piano - what can you say about your experience with it? I can put it this way ( as inarticulate as this is ) When I play the tyros piano, I have a restricted feeling.. as long as I get in a certain zone with the tone settings, either on it, or the amps or both ( I know not!) I can kind of make it work ( Thanksgiving I did a 7.5 hour gig on it! )
My feeling as I play with it, is like riding a young unbroken horse, where my positive playing zone with t4 can easily slip away. I cannot explain this weirdness any better.
It relates to my touch, and the various settings, including changing the volume ( I am prone to remixing volume of bass and piano and strings often- but I feel I have to restrict this with piano- weird Man, weird )
I wonder about reverb also... anyone with suggestions about reverb, that would be appreciated as well.
What is it about this keyboard that is so "creepy" to play?
But that is through one side of my mouth... cause I still play the darned thing.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (11/25/17 01:08 PM)
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#2892551 - 11/26/17 02:52 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Aidan Offline
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Sorry, I've been on the road for a couple of days, but it seems a couple of people want an update on the PA4X. So here goes...

As far as the keybed is concerned, it's more synth than piano. It's quite a good action, though – the nearest I can compare it, through experience, is the Motif XS7 I once owned. It's slightly stiffer, perhaps, and certainly has more 'push back' than the Kronos 61 actions (there was one of the latter in the shop I compared it with).

The pianos and EPs are certainly more complex and flexible than those on the Tyros but they're some way behind Yamaha and Roland's top of the line digitals pianos. Suitably tweaked, I could get through a gig on them, provided it wasn't a jazz trio or something which needs very nuanced, considered playing.

The German and Italian pianos (the latter available only after OS 2.0 upgrade is installed) in the PA4X are OK but the consensus of opinion among owners appears to be one of general dissatisfaction and some people have purchased the Wavesart sample of a Yamaha C7, ironically enough, priced at around €150.

However...

Just a few weeks into ownership, I'm seriously wondering whether I took a wrong turn, here. For a highly-tweakable synth/arranger using 'meat and potatoes' sounds, the Korg has a lot going for it.

But when it comes to orchestral and other 'acoustic' sounds (with a couple of odd exceptions), the voices just do not have the realism of Tyros/Genos. Articulations are limited by comparison and lots of voices have an artificial 'synthy' sheen about them. Have a listen to this Genos woodwind demo uploaded by KC user pjd...

Woodwind demo

I can tell you authoritatively that there is nothing on board the Korg that comes close to this level of sophistication. And for me, that was one of the joys of playing the Tyros 4 – I'm a lazy bugger who can't be bothered to work up pass-by-pass orchestral pieces on a DAW using Vienna or East-West libraries. The Tyros was a quick way of realising these sort of ideas.

I'd like to give the Korg another week or so but frankly, right now, my mind is wandering towards getting it sold before Christmas and then picking up either a Tyros 5 or Genos early in the new year. Yep, the Korg is more compact, better built, has more flexibility and programmability – but at the end of the day, if the sounds you want just aren't there, the rest doesn't count for a lot.

Tee, I hear what you say about the Tyros keyboard and pianos. The only thing I would mention is that some people claim the Genos keyboard is slightly stiffer – my one brief encounter with it, however, would suggest that the difference is very slight. I think it's not so much the weight (or lack of it) but the fact that it has quite a deep 'throw' on the keys.

On reverb, yeah, Yamaha smothers pretty much everything in it, so for live use, I'd say you'd have to come up with customised user voices with the DSP dialled right back. An external mixer with decent EQ capabilities would probably help too, I'm guessing.
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#2892582 - 11/26/17 08:36 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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My god, the woodwind demo sounds freaking fantastic.

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#2892586 - 11/26/17 08:57 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: zxcvbnm098]
Jazzmammal Offline
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As an occasional arranger user for some 20 years and also a full band member using the standard collection of regular keyboards we all talk about here, all I can say is while the quality of the sounds is certainly very important, I'll again ask for the zillionth time this one simple question:

Aidan, what are you using for stage amplification?

So much of the subtleties you talk about are totally lost in a noisy venue with bad acoustics then add in powered PA speakers most of us use that are hardly studio monitor quality...

Bob

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#2892600 - 11/27/17 02:53 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Jazzmammal]
Aidan Offline
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Bob, I get your point and there is certainly some truth in it. If it were just a subjective judgement about 'tone', I might even concede it entirely. But the presence of complex articulations will make a difference even with less than ideal amplification. OK, you may not pick up the key noise on some of those wind sounds in the example I posted, but you would still definitely hear the slurs, rises and falls, and overall legato. And these are areas where the PA4X decidedly trails the Yamaha keyboards.
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#2892632 - 11/27/17 06:14 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
pjd Offline
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If would like to hear more Genos demos, please cruise over to:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-snap-review/

Aidan, thanks for your feedback about the Pa4x, T4/5, and Genos. It's quite helpful.

All the best -- pj

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#2892677 - 11/27/17 08:54 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: pjd]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Bob the mammalian with jazz highlights smile

Well what kind of pa speakers are you suggesting?
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#2892949 - 11/28/17 03:32 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Worth Offline
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What do you think of this piano Aidan compared to the tyros or Genos ?

https://youtu.be/tTZHhao9a78

When you play orchestral stuff does it sound like this ?

https://youtu.be/M2wFW3dpRNU

Just trying to get a better understanding of what you are hearing through your speaker .

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#2892989 - 11/28/17 09:43 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Bob the mammalian with jazz highlights smile

Well what kind of pa speakers are you suggesting?


The expensive ones like Dave Ferris uses. They're 4K each or something. Fulcrum's maybe, I can't remember.

Bob

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#2892993 - 11/28/17 10:25 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Jazzmammal]
Dave Ferris Offline
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I wish I could afford the Fulcrums , or L' Acoustics. I'm a step down with the RCF TT08As. Still quite excellent though. Under 3K for a pair.

Al Quinn, Moe, Chuck and a few others here have them. Best bang for the buck in the higher end Pro Audio category.

Recommended.
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#2892996 - 11/29/17 12:37 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Dave Ferris]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
RCF TT08As. Still quite excellent though. Under 3K for a pair.


Everything I've seen online has been $1999 EACH.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2892998 - 11/29/17 02:59 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: J. Dan]
Aidan Offline
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Worth, difficult to compare with the piano video, as it's quite obviously captured under sub-optimal conditions but yes, close by the sound of it. The Bonners video of the strings and choirs, yeah pretty much identical to what I hear.

On the T4 I had, piano and strings were actually pretty weak points, although the latter could be improved considerably by combining them with other sounds. The newer Seattle Strings on the T5 helped, but the real game-changer in that was the advent of the Ensemble option.

If I had to sum up, I'd say that the PA4X is stronger on APs, EPs, clavs and organs. Guitars is about a dead heat. But T5/Genos beats the Korg hands down on woodwind, (most) brass and – mostly thanks to the Ensemble function – strings.

Still living with the PA4X here, trying my best to give it a fair chance.
_________________________
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#2893076 - 11/29/17 09:03 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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I may as well answer a few of these.

Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
The main screen displays the programs for the 1 LOWER and 3 UPPER channels. Can you go to other screens and see all the other MIDI channels in the same way? If I'm converting a bunch of my MIDI sequences it would be so much faster assigning Korg sounds with the touchscreen.


Yes, you can. Once you load a SMF into the Sequencer each MIDI channel is displayed with an icon of the type of sound - strings, brass, etc. Touch a channel and it opens up the same screens you use for selecting the UPPER/LOWER sounds.
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#2893080 - 11/29/17 09:17 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Aidan - are you connecting with that keybed and the acoustic piano? Would you consider the keybed more piano-like or more synth-like? I'm hoping the latter.


More synth-like. I was told it is the TP8/s, which I believe is Fatar's premium synth action.


Quote:
I think the PA4X will also come in handy in a month when I play a lot of Christmas parties. I absolutely hate playing Christmas carols but depending on the variety of Styles it might be a lot less painful this year. wink


It will be painful. The few Christmas styles I found kinda suck.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

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#2893083 - 11/29/17 09:39 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: heavy_keys]
Legatoboy Online   content
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good luck with it!
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#2893087 - 11/29/17 09:51 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan


Tee, I hear what you say about the Tyros keyboard and pianos. The only thing I would mention is that some people claim the Genos keyboard is slightly stiffer – my one brief encounter with it, however, would suggest that the difference is very slight. I think it's not so much the weight (or lack of it) but the fact that it has quite a deep 'throw' on the keys.

On reverb, yeah, Yamaha smothers pretty much everything in it, so for live use, I'd say you'd have to come up with customised user voices with the DSP dialled right back. An external mixer with decent EQ capabilities would probably help too, I'm guessing.


Thank you for in depth comments on these arranger workstations.
The t4 has a global detailed 5 band eq... I am wondering why you suggest additional mixer/EQ?

I hope you are patiently evaluating the Korg successfully. But part of me hopes you end up with Genos!
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#2893709 - 12/02/17 06:04 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Aidan Offline
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Update: I've had a better week with the Korg. I'm beginning to appreciate its flexibility more and by combining my own sounds and customising them, I'm starting to like what I hear. This is an instrument which needs some dialling in and making your own – for a start, most of the styles are too busy but once stripped back and everything is rebalanced, it's starting to make a lot more sense.
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#2893937 - 12/04/17 02:01 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
Update: I've had a better week with the Korg. I'm beginning to appreciate its flexibility more and by combining my own sounds and customising them, I'm starting to like what I hear. This is an instrument which needs some dialling in and making your own – for a start, most of the styles are too busy but once stripped back and everything is rebalanced, it's starting to make a lot more sense.


I decided over the weekend to send mine back. I'm extremely bummed. It fit the bill for me completely, except for one thing: it was a huge disappointment live. Through headphones it sounds gorgeous. Live, not so much. To me, the pianos have no life to them, with not a lot of variation between them, and the basses have no bottom, other than the Moog types. Everything is also drenched in reverb, with no front panel control over it - you have to go menu diving.

I took it last week to two regular gigs. One is a monthly member mixer at a country club, all carpeting, dead room. The second was all reflectives, very auditorium sounding if the volume creeps up. It sounded bad at both, through my Spacestation. I asked opinions of people who have heard me for years. They were also unimpressed, saying my old piano sounded much better. What a pisser.
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#2893939 - 12/04/17 02:23 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Aidan Offline
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Hmm. I've yet to hear mine live but I must admit to having reservations – the pianos through my nearfields remind me very much of the two Rolands I've owned, and they were always problematic live.

Having said that, some work on the EQing and DSP might improve things greatly but it depends if you're prepared to put in a lot of work customising every style you use. The common thread running through arrangers of all description is that they are tilted more towards home use. Yes, you can probably get something useable out of them, but it will require work.

I must say, my gut instinct (and one of the reasons for buying the Korg) was that it would be much closer to the finished article out of the box than Tyros/Genos. So I'm a bit disappointed with your gig report.

For me, the PA4X continues to be an enigma. One minute I'm inspired by the potential for customisation, the next I'm baldly disappointed by the overall result.

One thing which really gets me is that the voicings in the styles sound very 'lumpy', whereas Yamaha's transitioning between chords sounds far more natural. There's a bit of an art in playing arrangers cleanly and the Korg seems to make that far more difficult – I'm not really sure why.

Above all, when I had the Tyros, musical ideas were flowing from my fingers like running water. The Korg hasn't inspired me to write a single thing. I think I'm done here – the next move will be a Genos, once I've got the money together.
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#2893960 - 12/04/17 04:29 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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I converted about 10 of my MIDI files to all-Korg, with mixed results. On 'Something' (Beatles) the drums and the Carlos Guitar sounded great live. In fact, I have no issues with the drums on the PA4X at all. It's mainly the AP, EP, and basses that decided it for me. On my instrumental version of Anita Baker's 'Rapture', the electric pianos were muddy, with no clarity. On both those gigs last week I was cycling through the EPs, looking for one that popped, to no avail. Again, through headphones nearly every one of the EPs sounded fantastic. Anecdotal, I realize.
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The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

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#2893965 - 12/04/17 05:00 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Aidan Offline
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Yup. Very difficult to judge these things until you get them 'out in the wild'. I just watched this Peter Baartmans demo of the Tyros 5 and it might just be the way for me to go. No great extra expense to pick up a good used 76-note example and it's got 80% of what's on the Genos anyway.

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#2893974 - 12/04/17 05:36 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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One of the main reasons I bought the PA4X was for the arranger functions, to be able to work up classic old songs quickly without having to be spending hours learning and then sequencing drums and bass parts, saving my wrists from hours of computer mousing. Now that I'm returning it I will probably buy the Casio MZ-X500, which gets a stellar review from Keyboard Magazine, the gracious host of this forum. They say it punches well above it's price tag.

I'm waiting to hear back from Casio as to whether you can save complete performances, with the style, as a MIDI file, which I can then translate to my live rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it live as my sole keyboard - it's only got 61 keys, they're cheap-feeling, and it has built-in speakers. Looks like a toy, sounds like a monster, is the verdict. It would be great if they end up coming out with a 76 key 'professional' version, with decent keys and Aftertouch.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

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#2894008 - 12/05/17 01:17 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Ok gents, ( and ladies here, let us know) 3 hour trip north on unrelated business, then a stop at Hollywood Guitar Center... only one guess why I went there. I played the Genos.
My review is not going to be as good as many I have seen before. So you know that upfront. I was a bit sleepy from driving in low sleep and heavy heavy winds, which were tossing the car about on freeways.

Genos... the keyboard feels very different than Tyros 4 and likely T5. I like the Genos keyboard better for sure than T4 and likely 5.

The volume sliders ( assignable for other functions as well ) are light years ahead of Tyros. Volume sliders were one of my biggest gripes on my T4.. for all I know mine are defective. But Genos sliders are likely twice the real estate of T4, which is always better for subtle incremental changes... just like on a mixer. Not only are the sliders using double the real estate but they feel more substantial.

The brain trusts at GC chose to place this $5400 plus tax keyboard wedded in mono to a 150 dollar amp. Yaa.
So my sense of tone was hampered. I used phones borrowed from store, no clue of there quality.. so my comments about tone, are iffy.

The touch screen seemed very responsive to me... what do I know, right,, but Screen changes seemed instantaneous.

One weird unexpected negative, that may have an explanation- there seemed to be much less styles. Very odd.
I guess others have to be added?!

The general vibe of the physicality of Genos was quite different that T4 or 5. It seems better built, but again what do I know.. but I will stand by that until someone more authoritarian says differently.
I suspect the basses were a bit improved.
More fender Rhodes pianos was nice... how good they are I am hesitant to say, but certainly no less than T4 or 5.
My hunch is basses and EP's are better
I have never liked strings on Yamaha in general, so Genos strings did not over impress, however the more classical or small ensemble strings were good for sure.

The Touch screen info, seemed well laid out... more like a Korg!!!

If I had the money, I would guess it is a strong contender.
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#2894009 - 12/05/17 01:19 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
I'm also thinking this will sound great through my Spacestation!


You have returned the Korg? I heard that Spacestation takes intelligent ( knowledge borrowed from others here) and patient experimenting to get AP's right!



Edited by I-missRichardTee (12/05/17 01:20 AM)
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#2894013 - 12/05/17 04:12 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Aidan Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
One weird unexpected negative, that may have an explanation- there seemed to be much less styles. Very odd.
I guess others have to be added?!


I think a lot of the styles have been shuffled into a 'legacy' folder. You can also download some missing T5 styles from Yamaha's website, I believe. But on paper, Genos has more styles than T5.
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#2894056 - 12/05/17 08:00 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Synthoid Online   content
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
I have never liked strings on Yamaha in general


Me either. They always seem a bit thin to me. I prefer big and warm synthy strings. Korg and Roland do a much better job in that area.
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#2894066 - 12/05/17 08:47 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthoid]
Rofox Offline
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I've followed this thread with interest as I have a PA3X with the PA-AS amp/speakers and also a space station.
The pianos are passable through good quality headphones, the Korg speakers, and a decent PA (in a band situation) but don't really have sufficient "body" and are weak and ill defined through the Space Station 3. I bought the SS3 as a one box solution on the reviews of this site. The addition of a bass amp did little to improve the sound.
What did improve the sound was to ditch the Korg samples and load replacements.
Have a rummage around Korg Forums and check out Reuben and Anthony Sharman.
I'm currently very pleased with the fullness of the pianos, even through the SS3.
With so much sample memory in the PA4X you'll be delighted with what can be achieved.
Stick with it Aiden, it's a long and steep journey but joy awaits!

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#2894195 - 12/05/17 08:19 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
I'm also thinking this will sound great through my Spacestation!


You have returned the Korg? I heard that Spacestation takes intelligent ( knowledge borrowed from others here) and patient experimenting to get AP's right!



If I was just using it for the sound under my fingers this would be good advice (...and if I had any intelligence). But EQing for the piano means the rest of the accompaniment, plus the bass, plus the drums will have that EQ. In fact, that was a problem I was foreseeing with my plan to send the drums & bass through the second pair of outputs: the basses are thin, and correcting that on my mixer affected the kick drum and low toms negatively.

I only use the Spacestation by itself for low volume gigs, but that's the majority of the gigs I play.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894199 - 12/05/17 09:12 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Rofox]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Rofox
What did improve the sound was to ditch the Korg samples and load replacements.


I have mixed feelings about this. If you know that you are definitely keeping it you can take your time, and experiment until you find 3rd party sounds that work for you. But when you only have a 30 day return window and you've used a lot of it just learning the basic functions of the unit (in the few hours you have each day for such things), you've got to make a decision based on the unit at hand, not the unit it maybe could become if you put in enough additional work.

And, I have to say, if you have to start replacing the factory samples of a $4,000 keyboard to make it sound good, that's a problem. I do admit to a research error on my part: I was under the false assumption that some of these sounds - especially the pianos - came from the Kronos. Nope. None of them do.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894216 - 12/06/17 02:04 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Worth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
I am pretty sure this is incorrect . You can EQ the individual piano sound and or any of the accompaniment sounds onboard the keyboard without this generally affecting the global EQ of the keyboard generally . I am not at my keyboard at the moment but I know this is true . Have a search in the manual and this should clarify any misunderstandings .

It’s unfortunate that folks are not able to have sufficient time to dig into this instrument . I have owned the pa1x for 10 years so I knew pretty much that when I bought the pa4x it was a keeper even before I started to dig in to its functions .

I also own the first batch of space station keyboard amp and am very happy with the sounds I am hearing but I did spend a little time balancing and EQ ing my board as I guess anyone would ,because of the challenges an arranger instrument (by its very nature )presents to good amplification .

When all is said and done , if it does not meet your needs you are quite right to find something that suits you better . But I suspect you will not find a better all round arranger / true workstation / synth keyboard all in one package . Best of luck gents .

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#2894301 - 12/06/17 12:30 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic


I decided over the weekend to send mine back. I'm extremely bummed. It fit the bill for me completely, except for one thing: it was a huge disappointment live. Through headphones it sounds gorgeous. Live, not so much. To me, the pianos have no life to them, with not a lot of variation between them, and the basses have no bottom, other than the Moog types. Everything is also drenched in reverb, with no front panel control over it - you have to go menu diving.


LOL, I find ALL arrangers way too drenched in Reverb. On the Korg there's a helpful Global Mode parameter to offset the reverb on everything by a percentage. So you can clean up the whole sheebang with a single parameter.

Regards,

Jerry

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#2894302 - 12/06/17 12:34 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Worth]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Worth
I am pretty sure this is incorrect . You can EQ the individual piano sound and or any of the accompaniment sounds onboard the keyboard without this generally affecting the global EQ of the keyboard generally . I am not at my keyboard at the moment but I know this is true . Have a search in the manual and this should clarify any misunderstandings .

It’s unfortunate that folks are not able to have sufficient time to dig into this instrument . I have owned the pa1x for 10 years so I knew pretty much that when I bought the pa4x it was a keeper even before I started to dig in to its functions .

I also own the first batch of space station keyboard amp and am very happy with the sounds I am hearing but I did spend a little time balancing and EQ ing my board as I guess anyone would ,because of the challenges an arranger instrument (by its very nature )presents to good amplification .

When all is said and done , if it does not meet your needs you are quite right to find something that suits you better . But I suspect you will not find a better all round arranger / true workstation / synth keyboard all in one package . Best of luck gents .


Yes, each Timbre/Track has a basic 2-band EQ that is not part of the DSP "count" for Insert and Master Effects.

Jerry

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#2894316 - 12/06/17 01:09 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
One of the main reasons I bought the PA4X was for the arranger functions, to be able to work up classic old songs quickly without having to be spending hours learning and then sequencing drums and bass parts, saving my wrists from hours of computer mousing. Now that I'm returning it I will probably buy the Casio MZ-X500, which gets a stellar review from Keyboard Magazine, the gracious host of this forum. They say it punches well above it's price tag.

I'm waiting to hear back from Casio as to whether you can save complete performances, with the style, as a MIDI file, which I can then translate to my live rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it live as my sole keyboard - it's only got 61 keys, they're cheap-feeling, and it has built-in speakers. Looks like a toy, sounds like a monster, is the verdict. It would be great if they end up coming out with a 76 key 'professional' version, with decent keys and Aftertouch.


I am a big fan of Casio, and previous employee/current friend and sometimes hire of the company. But I have to say that as nice as the MZ is, it doesn't "fight" in the Tyros 5/Genos/Pa4x category (and how could we expect it to - it's multiple thousands of dollars less in cost). Based on the sonic issues you are describing I don't think it's going to be your answer.

Good luck in your search.

Jerry

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#2894410 - 12/06/17 11:13 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Randelph Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 391
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
One of the main reasons I bought the PA4X was for the arranger functions, to be able to work up classic old songs quickly without having to be spending hours learning and then sequencing drums and bass parts, saving my wrists from hours of computer mousing. Now that I'm returning it I will probably buy the Casio MZ-X500, which gets a stellar review from Keyboard Magazine, the gracious host of this forum. They say it punches well above it's price tag.

I'm waiting to hear back from Casio as to whether you can save complete performances, with the style, as a MIDI file, which I can then translate to my live rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it live as my sole keyboard - it's only got 61 keys, they're cheap-feeling, and it has built-in speakers. Looks like a toy, sounds like a monster, is the verdict. It would be great if they end up coming out with a 76 key 'professional' version, with decent keys and Aftertouch.


S,
I’ve had a Casio MZ-X500 for about 6 months now and really enjoy it, but it sounds like my needs are very different than yours. I like the auto accompaniment for the rhythms, but that’s about it. You could hit up the x500 Casio Music Forum, most of the people there don’t know much, but Brad the moderator knows the answer to most questions.

The pluses in my book:
- Speakers are good (but not great), sufficient for parties and smaller gigs, practice

- I mostly like the sounds! Am relieved by this, having had a Casio Wk 7600 and hated. the sounds. The hex layers give you a lot to work with for sound sculpting, realtime mixing of 6 sounds!

- The keybed is decent, not horrible like the WK 7600, i can get good dynamics out of it. Of course its not on a par with the XS7 and M3 that I’ve had.

- The pads are a hoot! They feel good, have good velocity response, and do a lot of different things. Definitely a big plus on this board that other arrangers don’t have

- The UI is pretty darn intuitive. YMMV depending on what you’re trying to do, but having suffered thru the Yamaha XS, its a breath of fresh air for the most part.

- I enjoy the rhythms for the most part, am kind of surprised how much i enjoy them, but then again i haven’’t had an arranger in over 10 years

- it has mono mode and quite a few synth parameters

- expression pedal input, though which one will work with it is not completely obvious

- 250MB of room for your own samples!

- 9 faders for organ and hex layer levels!

- good effects, don’t detest them like i did on the 7600


The minuses:
- It feels unfinished. The number of sounds in many categories is seriously underwhelming, and most dissapointing, its biggest claim to fame for me, the hex layers, has mostly been developed by Casio for EDM. Keep in mind that the hex layers can use any of the boards ROM, and ideally they’d have developed mind blowing hex layers for all categories of sound, but they didn’t

- hex layers, again. Their fantastic achievement, and they didn’t make it particularly user friendly. You play one, and you have no idea what sound is associated with a particular fader, or what its key range or velocity range is. Infuriating! I had a brainstorm one night and realized they could fit all the important mapping information for any given hex layer on a single page (a lot of info, but still you could reasonably do it), so you wouldn’t have to be stumbling around in the dark. I’m not holding my breath on this one. An ipad app for the hex tones would be heavenly, all that glorious power made useable!!!

- I lucked out with the keybed i got, its relatively quiet and is ‘decent’, not bad, expressively playable. Others at the Casio Music Forums have complained of noisy keybeds from the start. In general, that’s been my experience of unweighted Casio keybeds, the quality is inconsistent from board to board

- The 9 faders cannot be used beyond the organ and hex layers. Would be SO sweet, for example, to have the ability to control the various volumes (4 sounds, accomp., mic, etc., a total of 9 different volumes!) with these faders instead of having to jump to various mixing pages. Unlike some arrangers, there’s no external knob to control the balance between the keyboard sounds and the accompaniment.

- No easy way to tweak the fx without getting into a menu

- Only 2 insert fx, and 1 is auto assigned to accompaniment, so another step to get a second one for the sounds. When i did it froze the keyboard. A bug

- There’s apparently a number of bugs that are not being addressed. There was a 1.5 OS update awhile ago (6 months? A year?), and nothing since. Starting to feel abandoned by Casio

- Besides the pitch and mod wheels, there’s only two assignable knobs for tweaking. They’re natively assigned to bass and mids, and come in handy so often i’m reluctant to assign them to anything else!

- relative lack of online video tutorials, again, a sign of neglect on casios part

- Is only 61 keys


Overall, as someone who mostly likes this keyboard cause its lightweight, has decent sounds for its price range, has good onboard speakers, crazy pads and decent action, i’m pretty happy with it, and considering i bought it used for around $800 it’s been a great keyboard for what i needed, a monumental upgrade from the WK 7600. Been realizing though that i’d consider spending up to $1,500 if i could get an upgrade in the built-in speakers and keybed. Would love to audition the new Korg PA 700 to compare the action, sounds and speakers.
_________________________
Nord Stage 88 Classic / Casio MZ-X500 / Yamaha melodica, soprano and alto recorders / Various congas and djembes
Roland Street Cube EX / QSC K10, K8.2 / SS V.3
Blue Encore 300, EV ND76



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#2894411 - 12/06/17 11:33 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Randelph]
J. Dan Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 11316
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I refuse to read a post that doesn't fit on my screen.
_________________________
Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894519 - 12/07/17 09:58 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Worth]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Worth
I am pretty sure this is incorrect . You can EQ the individual piano sound and or any of the accompaniment sounds onboard the keyboard without this generally affecting the global EQ of the keyboard generally


Sure, you can do this with nearly every modern keyboard. But it involves menu diving. And then wouldn't you have to save it to that patch so as not to lose it on the next song when you're playing another patch? And then, on the next gig, I'm re-EQing that patch for the acoustics of this room? Seems onerous. Especially since the basses also have no bottom end. I've never had this issue with my Alesis or Kurzweil pianos, which sound good in every room, through the Spacestation.

Originally Posted By: Worth
It’s unfortunate that folks are not able to have sufficient time to dig into this instrument.


Which became an issue, nearing my return window. Rather safe than sorry. Although, I started second-guessing myself the moment I dropped it off at Fed-Ex. frown
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894537 - 12/07/17 10:30 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: jerrythek]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: jerrythek
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
One of the main reasons I bought the PA4X was for the arranger functions, to be able to work up classic old songs quickly without having to be spending hours learning and then sequencing drums and bass parts, saving my wrists from hours of computer mousing. Now that I'm returning it I will probably buy the Casio MZ-X500, which gets a stellar review from Keyboard Magazine, the gracious host of this forum. They say it punches well above it's price tag.

I'm waiting to hear back from Casio as to whether you can save complete performances, with the style, as a MIDI file, which I can then translate to my live rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it live as my sole keyboard - it's only got 61 keys, they're cheap-feeling, and it has built-in speakers. Looks like a toy, sounds like a monster, is the verdict. It would be great if they end up coming out with a 76 key 'professional' version, with decent keys and Aftertouch.


I am a big fan of Casio, and previous employee/current friend and sometimes hire of the company. But I have to say that as nice as the MZ is, it doesn't "fight" in the Tyros 5/Genos/Pa4x category (and how could we expect it to - it's multiple thousands of dollars less in cost). Based on the sonic issues you are describing I don't think it's going to be your answer.

Good luck in your search.

Jerry


As I said, I wouldn't use the Casio live, just at home to work up new songs rather than continue to spend hours on my computer sequencer using a mouse. I am having the beginnings of either carpal tunnel issues or they stem from a car accident a few years ago. In any event, sequencing bass and especially drum parts always take me so much longer than keyboard parts, obviously. Being a nit-picker also doesn't help with that. So I walk away from hours of mousing shaking my wrists. I have to cut back. If that means "cheating" by using an arranger to quickly work up those parts, then translating them to my live rig, so be it. $1,000 is chump change compared to losing my hands.

How do you think the Casio would do in this situation? Would every 'Slow Country Song' that I worked up end up having basically the same drums and bass patterns? This is something I'm still fuzzy about with arrangers. Of course, I'm assuming that all songs created with the different styles can be saved as a MIDI file, to import to my sequencer for Program Change assignments to my live rig. The manual I downloaded is unclear on that.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894593 - 12/07/17 02:42 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Worth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
Sorry synthaholic that’s not correct either . I am not trying to be argumentative but there are many features that unfortunately folkes don’t know are incorporated into the korg pa4x . Literally any edit you make to to sounds , styles ,effects splits , keyboard parts drums , EQ edits ,balance of sounds , literally everything is customisable and can be saved as either a keyboard set or in the song book and instantly able to be recalled .

Furthermore if you know that you’re playing at different venues regularly and you know that the acoustics of the room are different from venue to venue, you can save your keyboard set ups in your set list for each venue that you play, so that you do not have to reconfigure your EQ settings every time you play at a different venue. You simply press one button and everything is set up just as you had designed it the last time you were at that venue . The song book and set list features are the most underrated and understated features of the korg pa4x .

This is stuff that probably is not publicised well enough but its important for people that have an interest in these machines to get accurate information .


Edited by Worth (12/07/17 02:53 PM)

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#2894615 - 12/07/17 04:04 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Worth]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Worth
Sorry synthaholic that’s not correct either . I am not trying to be argumentative but there are many features that unfortunately folkes don’t know are incorporated into the korg pa4x . Literally any edit you make to to sounds , styles ,effects splits , keyboard parts drums , EQ edits ,balance of sounds , literally everything is customisable and can be saved as either a keyboard set or in the song book and instantly able to be recalled .

Furthermore if you know that you’re playing at different venues regularly and you know that the acoustics of the room are different from venue to venue, you can save your keyboard set ups in your set list for each venue that you play, so that you do not have to reconfigure your EQ settings every time you play at a different venue. You simply press one button and everything is set up just as you had designed it the last time you were at that venue . The song book and set list features are the most underrated and understated features of the korg pa4x .

This is stuff that probably is not publicised well enough but its important for people that have an interest in these machines to get accurate information .


Thank you, Worth. You're not argumentative at all, you're informative. I really wish the manual had been better written. I downloaded and read everything that I thought would be pertinent to my situation before ordering it, and it's really skimpy on things like this. They totally gloss over so much of the capabilities of this keyboard.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894669 - 12/08/17 03:23 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Worth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
It’s always difficult from a marketing perspective to know what, of the multiple features in an arranger ,other than the main features , will become really strong selling points . I had my korg pa1x for 10 years and even co produced a dvd called “ korg arranger secrets “ some years ago because there was so much under the hood that people generally did not know about ,that were great features . In the end I think I only really got to grips with 60% of the keyboards features . Now I have the pa4x I reckon I will have this for another 10 years and it’s features are much deeper .

I wish I had more time to really dig in in terms of sound design but these days I spend more time playing and accompanying than learning . If I have any questions I pop over to the korg forum . The people there are super friendly and helpful .

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#2894741 - 12/08/17 12:47 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic


As I said, I wouldn't use the Casio live, just at home to work up new songs rather than continue to spend hours on my computer sequencer using a mouse. I am having the beginnings of either carpal tunnel issues or they stem from a car accident a few years ago. In any event, sequencing bass and especially drum parts always take me so much longer than keyboard parts, obviously. Being a nit-picker also doesn't help with that. So I walk away from hours of mousing shaking my wrists. I have to cut back. If that means "cheating" by using an arranger to quickly work up those parts, then translating them to my live rig, so be it. $1,000 is chump change compared to losing my hands.

How do you think the Casio would do in this situation? Would every 'Slow Country Song' that I worked up end up having basically the same drums and bass patterns? This is something I'm still fuzzy about with arrangers. Of course, I'm assuming that all songs created with the different styles can be saved as a MIDI file, to import to my sequencer for Program Change assignments to my live rig. The manual I downloaded is unclear on that.


I don't feel the Casio offers the variety and quality of arrangements/Styles that those top-tier product do. What it has is OK/good, but just not in the league of the others. So your realism (in the parts played) and variety of styles per genre would likely suffer. Again, I'm not dissing it, but you get what you pay for (most of the time).

Jerry

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