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#2889312 - 11/09/17 06:19 AM It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello...
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK


Why?

* I tried the Tyros briefly in a couple of live situations last week, and everything iMissRichardTee has said about his own experiences instantly came back to me. Quite clearly, the Tyros is a board which is optimised for home playing.

* For next year's Joni Mitchell tribute gigs, I'm going to need a board which will allow me to add convincing strings, sax and flutes and double guitars where needed. This has all those in spades. I might even conceivably get away with using this as my only board on that project.

* After many years of procrastinating, I finally sold a very fine handmade acoustic guitar which was a university gift from my mum. It was difficult parting with it but I'm really no guitarist and it has been basically sitting in a case for years.

* The PA4X is compact and versatile enough to also use as top in a two-keyboard rig when I need more than Piano/Hammond/Rhodes and Wurli. So I will also be able to sell on my Kurz PC361.

The flexibility of the thing is impressive – you can get really deep on editing. And the KAOSS stuff in the v2 software is also a hell of a lot of fun. From the characteristics of the sound so far, I'm pretty confident that the arranger stuff will sound excellent through a PA.
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KC Island
#2889313 - 11/09/17 06:24 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthoid Online   content
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Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
She's a beauty Aidan. Reminiscent of the Oasys design.

Wish I could audition one but most stores here have thinned out their high-end keyboard stock. frown
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#2889315 - 11/09/17 06:51 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthoid]
cgiles Offline
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Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 220
Interesting. As a musician who can actually play, I'm surprised to see you choose an arranger keyboard as your (potential) 'main ax'. Practicality aside, that's a pretty brave thing to do in the face of potential ridicule and ostracism (from fellow 'pro' musicians smile ). I applaud your objectivity and courage. Although I've never taken one to a gig (always played in classic organ trio(+) ), I have owned a number of them dating back to the Roland G800. For me, they were always a 'fun thing', but over the years they have evolved (improved) to the point of being a perfectly legitimate choice as a professional gig instrument. Congrats.

chas
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#2889317 - 11/09/17 07:11 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: cgiles]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Well, even putting aside the arranger functionality for a moment, it's a seriously good sounding keyboard. Not as deep as a Kronos, for sure, but then it boots a bit quicker too! And if you can make something sound good, I don't really think other musicians will give a stuff, to be honest. I'll probably end up using the CP4 as well, if only to build some redundancy into the rig but for stuff like local radio promo slots and rehearsals, this will cover all the necessary ground. And we can even end the rehearsal with a singalong of Girl From Ipanema.
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#2889320 - 11/09/17 07:22 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Six-string-man Offline
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Registered: 08/06/13
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I never quite understood people looking down their noses at arrangers. Granted, they can make an inexperienced player sound better, but if you dig into them a bit, they are very deep, and in the right hands are capable of amazing things.
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#2889330 - 11/09/17 07:45 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Six-string-man]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
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The problem I have with the arranger is that I would not use 95% of the short cuts, canned parts, rhythms, patterns, etc, etc.

All that stuff and buttons that comprises that hefty price tag of an arranger.

I do like and greatly appreciate realistic articulation of wind, reed and brass instruments.
I know that the arrangers do a much better job delivering on that.

But that alone, is not enough to convince me to drop $3000, $4000 etc.

I can say this with fair accuracy, almost all ( non arrange) keyboards over $1200 sound good, dam good, or simply excellent.

As a more creative type and with a practical side , the arranger is simply not for me.

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#2889331 - 11/09/17 07:54 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Six-string-man]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
Not as deep as a Kronos, for sure, but then it boots a bit quicker too!

A lot lighter for 7x keys, too. What's the action like? Is it the same action that's in the Kronos 61?

I know very little about arrangers. The Pa3XLe caught my attention just for being a 7x-key board with aftertouch that weighs under 30 lbs (a configuration I wish existed for the Kronos). I *very* briefly played the MicroArranger and found it pretty confusing! But it's probably foolish for someone who has never played an arranger to think he can get very far without spending some time with a manual.

Originally Posted By: Six-string-man
I never quite understood people looking down their noses at arrangers.

I'm thinking that might be more of an American thing? And probably undeserved.
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#2889334 - 11/09/17 08:03 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: AnotherScott]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Scott, the action is pretty good – a little more sprung and resistant than the Kronos 61 (they had one in the same shop, so was able to compare) but not majorly so.

Yes, if you're not going to use the arranger functions, this probably is overkill for the other stuff but as a dual purpose keyboard, it does pretty well.
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#2889338 - 11/09/17 08:32 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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I think the attitude is the price of the flagship arrangers for accompaniment features that players don't want or need when playing in a band. There's also the stigma of older and lower end arrangers really sounding corny, as well as the style patterns being the antithesis of originality. These are the perceptions, whether founded/agreed upon or not.

That said, lbs for lbs feature for feature some of the best sounds and fx the developers have available are included in these arranger lines.
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#2889365 - 11/09/17 11:57 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Barryjam Offline
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Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 261
Loc: Auburn, Northern CA
Aidan,

I've never played an arranger. So, a lot of Joni songs have beautiful AP and strings/horns playing lines that cannot physically be played simultaneously in real time. Will you have pre-recorded segments that you originally played or will you switch parts live? e.g. piano no longer played during the string lines?
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#2889390 - 11/09/17 02:50 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Barryjam]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Barry, I've not really decided yet – rehearsals begin early next year so perhaps ideas will be better formed by then – I certainly hope so!

At the moment, I'm thinking about signature bits like the flutes on the intro to Free Man In Paris or the woodwind ensemble 'hook' in Edith and the Kingpin, for example. I don't initially envisage running anything pre-recorded but I could see that working for, say, an orchestral version of Both Sides Now.

As far as cost is concerned, if I'd have bought a Montage 7, I'm not sure whether anybody would have batted an eyelid. I actually paid around £500 less than the current asking price of the Yamaha. Sure, it's not a direct comparison, but the quality of voices is very close and the quality of construction is actually better.
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#2889408 - 11/09/17 05:09 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan

As far as cost is concerned, if I'd have bought a Montage 7, I'm not sure whether anybody would have batted an eyelid.


I agree with this, Aidan. Everyone would have cheered you on. Unless, of course, you sold your CP4 again. wink
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#2889418 - 11/09/17 06:37 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: davedoerfler]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Don't misinterpret my post above, guys. I cheered Aidan on with his Tyros acquisition and having studied up a bit on the new Yamaha Genos, I definitely see the effort they and Korg are putting into these top of the line instruments. There are definitely people who know a lot more about arrangers than most on this board that feel the PA4X is still ahead in the game. So for sure, totally supportive of this pick.

I was just suggesting why most of the naysayers around here and in the US are not down with (or up on) the arrangers. And I think it's for the reasons mentioned - price, focus on the accompaniment features band players and traditional pianists don't want, experience with the patterns and sounds being corny on dated instruments. But at the same time, they are really capable instruments loaded with some of the developers best sounds and fx with plenty of horsepower for polyphony, layering, etc. Congrats on the PA4X! I think given time on one, most would like to add it to their collection. And obviously, particularly useful to one man and duo type acts.
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#2889466 - 11/10/17 12:36 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
No worries, Elmer, I wasn't getting bent out of shape at all, just trying to add some context on the price aspect.
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#2889695 - 11/11/17 12:47 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Worth Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
Hi Aidan . Congrats on your purchase . I too have just bought the 4x after owning the 1x for 10 years . It’s awesome and the sounds are excellent especially the dnc sounds . I hope it fits your needs for your up coming project . Best wishes

Worth

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#2889723 - 11/11/17 08:08 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Worth]
Synthaholic Offline
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Congrats, Aiden! I'm days away from also buying a PA4X. I still haven't pulled the trigger due to not being able to find some basic info. I did see that the latest OS upgrade now includes the ability to save SPLIT points with each Keyboard Set (Setup/Multi/Mix/Combi) instead of Globally. This is a bit worrying to me, that this is done as an afterthought in an upgrade, when things like this have been done for decades, including Korg keyboards. So it makes me wonder what other elementary, basic functions are not implemented. On a $4,000 keyboard.

If you or any other PA4X owners wouldn't mind a few questions, it would help me tremendously. Because my guy at Sweetwater is also having trouble finding the answers.
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#2889784 - 11/11/17 01:59 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
I'm happy to help if I can...however, bear in mind that I'm about three days into ownership and still learning about the keyboard myself! Also, with my Germany trip looming, I probably won't get the chance to go much deeper with it for about a week or so. What are your principal concerns?
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#2889797 - 11/11/17 03:47 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Congrats, Aiden! I'm days away from also buying a PA4X. I still haven't pulled the trigger due to not being able to find some basic info. I did see that the latest OS upgrade now includes the ability to save SPLIT points with each Keyboard Set (Setup/Multi/Mix/Combi) instead of Globally. This is a bit worrying to me, that this is done as an afterthought in an upgrade, when things like this have been done for decades, including Korg keyboards. So it makes me wonder what other elementary, basic functions are not implemented. On a $4,000 keyboard.

If you or any other PA4X owners wouldn't mind a few questions, it would help me tremendously. Because my guy at Sweetwater is also having trouble finding the answers.


Are you sure about this? I have been saving custom split points for a few years now with my Pa900. There's a check box for "Use Global" or a custom range that can be defined. I'm not certain as I type away from the keyboard whether it is saved in the STS or in the Style itself. But it has been there for a while.

Regards,

Jerry

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#2889817 - 11/11/17 07:35 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: jerrythek]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3718
Loc: Westville, IN
Great choice, Aidan !

I've been impressed with the Korg PAs since first hearing demos of the Pa2x's various advanced articulations. And who cares if you're not utilizing the arranger functions? It's a dynamic and expressive instrument for live performance; that's what matters. I almost never used the recording functions in the Motif, and have never used the Kronos' sequencer.

So, enjoy !
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#2889820 - 11/11/17 08:11 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: allan_evett]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Loc: USA, greater NY area
Korg: All About Arrangers

http://www.korg.com/us/features/arrangers/

Includes their lineup
Global Sound and Style Shop
10 feature tutorials
links to some bonusware
A few schematics



Sound walk through:
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#2889830 - 11/11/17 11:20 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Worth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
Regarding split points . You can save as many different keyboard split points as you like in your keyboard sets and save them in your song book . Just call them back up under the song book and tvecunstrument will automatically be configured how you saved it . That applies for sounds and styles and even effects . Literally any settings you have saved through song book can be instantly recalled .

This is from the latest manual


“The local split point can be memorized into a Keyboard Set. Each Keyboard Set associated to a Style or SongBook Entry can have a different split point.
▪ Write the changes to a Keyboard Set.

Memorize the local split point
The local split point can be memorized into a Keyboard Set. Each Keyboard Set associated to a Style or SongBook Entry can have a different split point.
▪ Write the changes to a Keyboard Set. Changing the global split point
The global split point is both the general setting you use when there is no ‘local’ split, and a ‘template’ from which to start setting the various local split points saved into the Keyboard Sets. You can change it and use it as the main split point of the instrument. Some Keyboard Sets might override the global split point with their memorized local split points.
Change the global split point
1 Go to the Global > Mode Preferences > Style page.
As an alternative, keep the SHIFT button pressed and press the STYLE PLAY
button to open the Style page.
2 Touch the keyboard diagram in the display, then play the lowest note of the Upper (right hand) part on the keyboard.
As an alternative, touch the Split Point parameter to select it, and use the VALUE controls to select the new split point.
3 Press the EXIT button to return to the previous page.
Customizing the Keyboard Sets “

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#2889939 - 11/12/17 02:34 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: AnotherScott]
heavy_keys Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/10/16
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
What's the action like? Is it the same action that's in the Kronos 61?

...It has nothing to do with the Kronos. The arranger lines, be it Korg or ex-Roland golden age (E86/96, G600/800/1000, etc.), are/were engineered and manufactured in Italy. The actions are, o course, Fatar. For example, in G800/1000 and PA2/3/4X PRO you find something like the TP8S (possible different variations, as the black ones in PA are matte like the TP8piano's). PA3XLE probably has TP8SK, similar to TP8HO (shorter, rounded black keys). G600 had a TP9 version, nothing like the japanese XP50/60/80 of those times. An exception would be the japanese Korg arrangers i3/30 which had some Yamaha SF or SFX like Trinity/Triton/Tyros/EX/Motif (the best IMO).


Edited by heavy_keys (11/13/17 03:57 AM)
Edit Reason: Accuracy

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#2889946 - 11/12/17 03:02 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: heavy_keys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
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...and yet some actions are used by both Korg Japan and Korg Italy, like the RH3.
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#2889964 - 11/12/17 04:42 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: AnotherScott]
heavy_keys Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/10/16
Posts: 30
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
...and yet some actions are used by both Korg Japan and Korg Italy, like the RH3.

I don't know what italian Korg has RH3 but I know for sure that japanese X3 and N364 had TP9. Of course there are exceptions...

I can also imagine that Fatar versions made for Korg and Roland were not exactly the standard ones...

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#2889971 - 11/12/17 05:27 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: AnotherScott]
heavy_keys Offline
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Registered: 02/10/16
Posts: 30
I think we all love SFX for their balance, instead of spring resistance like the cheaper ones and that's obviously because of the small mechanism beneath, recreating a miniaturized hammer effect, without heaving a spring in the back and a small weight in front. I kind of felt that on Roland XP series, with their metal plates glued beneath the keys but I wonder: can this be achieved by changing the springs with lighter/softer ones on TP9?

Scott, I know you did that on your Artis 7. How does it feel?

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#2889977 - 11/12/17 06:16 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: heavy_keys]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11273
Originally Posted By: heavy_keys
I don't know what italian Korg has RH3

SV1

Originally Posted By: heavy_keys
I know you did that on your Artis 7. How does it feel?

I have Syntaur's lighter Kurz replacement springs on my Artis7, and I think it's great.
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#2889990 - 11/12/17 08:07 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: jerrythek]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: jerrythek
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Congrats, Aiden! I'm days away from also buying a PA4X. I still haven't pulled the trigger due to not being able to find some basic info. I did see that the latest OS upgrade now includes the ability to save SPLIT points with each Keyboard Set (Setup/Multi/Mix/Combi) instead of Globally. This is a bit worrying to me, that this is done as an afterthought in an upgrade, when things like this have been done for decades, including Korg keyboards. So it makes me wonder what other elementary, basic functions are not implemented. On a $4,000 keyboard.

If you or any other PA4X owners wouldn't mind a few questions, it would help me tremendously. Because my guy at Sweetwater is also having trouble finding the answers.


Are you sure about this? I have been saving custom split points for a few years now with my Pa900. There's a check box for "Use Global" or a custom range that can be defined. I'm not certain as I type away from the keyboard whether it is saved in the STS or in the Style itself. But it has been there for a while.

Regards,

Jerry


I found this in the new section, HERE, about the latest OS upgrade:

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#2889991 - 11/12/17 08:20 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Aidan
I'm happy to help if I can...however, bear in mind that I'm about three days into ownership and still learning about the keyboard myself! Also, with my Germany trip looming, I probably won't get the chance to go much deeper with it for about a week or so. What are your principal concerns?


It's simple stuff that the manual doesn't cover well.

Can you assign your LOWER (or any other MIDI channel, for that matter) to the alternate L&R outputs, on a Keyboard Set level, or is it only Globally? I'm thinking of left hand bass, routed to it's own channel in a mixer, for example.

The main screen displays the programs for the 1 LOWER and 3 UPPER channels. Can you go to other screens and see all the other MIDI channels in the same way? If I'm converting a bunch of my MIDI sequences it would be so much faster assigning Korg sounds with the touchscreen.

Thanks!
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The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2890034 - 11/13/17 07:24 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Can you assign your LOWER (or any other MIDI channel, for that matter) to the alternate L&R outputs, on a Keyboard Set level, or is it only Globally? I'm thinking of left hand bass, routed to it's own channel in a mixer, for example.


I found this in the manual:

Quote:
Sounds from each part or track of the keyboard, the Style or MIDI Songs, as
well as each Drum family, can be sent to a separate audio output. This routing
is global, and will not change when choosing a different Keyboard Set,
Style or Song.


So it looks like the answer to that one is no, global only. I think Korg views the main uses for this feature as either for someone playing LH bass throughout a show, and wants it going to separate amplification, or sending the metronome out in song playback to act as a click for the band.

Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
The main screen displays the programs for the 1 LOWER and 3 UPPER channels. Can you go to other screens and see all the other MIDI channels in the same way? If I'm converting a bunch of my MIDI sequences it would be so much faster assigning Korg sounds with the touchscreen.


I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. You can go into the 'multitrack' mode in Sequencer play and channels and their programs are displayed there, if that answers your question?
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#2890110 - 11/13/17 02:17 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Aidan
I found this in the manual:

Quote:
Sounds from each part or track of the keyboard, the Style or MIDI Songs, as
well as each Drum family, can be sent to a separate audio output. This routing
is global, and will not change when choosing a different Keyboard Set,
Style or Song.


So it looks like the answer to that one is no, global only. I think Korg views the main uses for this feature as either for someone playing LH bass throughout a show, and wants it going to separate amplification, or sending the metronome out in song playback to act as a click for the band.


Well that stinks. It should be selectable per Setup. I guess the logical way, for me, would be to run all the drums through the alternate L&R. I think it would sound less "in the box" if you could get the drums out of the keyboard mix. And I guess another way would be to run MIDI channel 1 as only acoustic piano, and route that to it's own mixer channels.


Originally Posted By: Aidan
I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. You can go into the 'multitrack' mode in Sequencer play and channels and their programs are displayed there, if that answers your question?


Probably. On the main screen you get this:




Touching Concert Grand gets you this:




Can you do this with all 16 MIDI channels? The only screen I've seen in any of these videos is this main screen with the 3 UPPERS and 1 LOWER. I'm assuming they are assigned MIDI Channels 1-4? I don't know. But I want to assign 5-16 with the same ease if I'm moving all of my SMF over to all-Korg sounds.

Thanks for this.
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The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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