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#2894199 - 12/05/17 09:12 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Rofox]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Rofox
What did improve the sound was to ditch the Korg samples and load replacements.


I have mixed feelings about this. If you know that you are definitely keeping it you can take your time, and experiment until you find 3rd party sounds that work for you. But when you only have a 30 day return window and you've used a lot of it just learning the basic functions of the unit (in the few hours you have each day for such things), you've got to make a decision based on the unit at hand, not the unit it maybe could become if you put in enough additional work.

And, I have to say, if you have to start replacing the factory samples of a $4,000 keyboard to make it sound good, that's a problem. I do admit to a research error on my part: I was under the false assumption that some of these sounds - especially the pianos - came from the Kronos. Nope. None of them do.
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The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

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#2894216 - 12/06/17 02:04 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Worth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
I am pretty sure this is incorrect . You can EQ the individual piano sound and or any of the accompaniment sounds onboard the keyboard without this generally affecting the global EQ of the keyboard generally . I am not at my keyboard at the moment but I know this is true . Have a search in the manual and this should clarify any misunderstandings .

Itís unfortunate that folks are not able to have sufficient time to dig into this instrument . I have owned the pa1x for 10 years so I knew pretty much that when I bought the pa4x it was a keeper even before I started to dig in to its functions .

I also own the first batch of space station keyboard amp and am very happy with the sounds I am hearing but I did spend a little time balancing and EQ ing my board as I guess anyone would ,because of the challenges an arranger instrument (by its very nature )presents to good amplification .

When all is said and done , if it does not meet your needs you are quite right to find something that suits you better . But I suspect you will not find a better all round arranger / true workstation / synth keyboard all in one package . Best of luck gents .

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#2894301 - 12/06/17 12:30 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic


I decided over the weekend to send mine back. I'm extremely bummed. It fit the bill for me completely, except for one thing: it was a huge disappointment live. Through headphones it sounds gorgeous. Live, not so much. To me, the pianos have no life to them, with not a lot of variation between them, and the basses have no bottom, other than the Moog types. Everything is also drenched in reverb, with no front panel control over it - you have to go menu diving.


LOL, I find ALL arrangers way too drenched in Reverb. On the Korg there's a helpful Global Mode parameter to offset the reverb on everything by a percentage. So you can clean up the whole sheebang with a single parameter.

Regards,

Jerry

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#2894302 - 12/06/17 12:34 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Worth]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Worth
I am pretty sure this is incorrect . You can EQ the individual piano sound and or any of the accompaniment sounds onboard the keyboard without this generally affecting the global EQ of the keyboard generally . I am not at my keyboard at the moment but I know this is true . Have a search in the manual and this should clarify any misunderstandings .

Itís unfortunate that folks are not able to have sufficient time to dig into this instrument . I have owned the pa1x for 10 years so I knew pretty much that when I bought the pa4x it was a keeper even before I started to dig in to its functions .

I also own the first batch of space station keyboard amp and am very happy with the sounds I am hearing but I did spend a little time balancing and EQ ing my board as I guess anyone would ,because of the challenges an arranger instrument (by its very nature )presents to good amplification .

When all is said and done , if it does not meet your needs you are quite right to find something that suits you better . But I suspect you will not find a better all round arranger / true workstation / synth keyboard all in one package . Best of luck gents .


Yes, each Timbre/Track has a basic 2-band EQ that is not part of the DSP "count" for Insert and Master Effects.

Jerry

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#2894316 - 12/06/17 01:09 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
One of the main reasons I bought the PA4X was for the arranger functions, to be able to work up classic old songs quickly without having to be spending hours learning and then sequencing drums and bass parts, saving my wrists from hours of computer mousing. Now that I'm returning it I will probably buy the Casio MZ-X500, which gets a stellar review from Keyboard Magazine, the gracious host of this forum. They say it punches well above it's price tag.

I'm waiting to hear back from Casio as to whether you can save complete performances, with the style, as a MIDI file, which I can then translate to my live rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it live as my sole keyboard - it's only got 61 keys, they're cheap-feeling, and it has built-in speakers. Looks like a toy, sounds like a monster, is the verdict. It would be great if they end up coming out with a 76 key 'professional' version, with decent keys and Aftertouch.


I am a big fan of Casio, and previous employee/current friend and sometimes hire of the company. But I have to say that as nice as the MZ is, it doesn't "fight" in the Tyros 5/Genos/Pa4x category (and how could we expect it to - it's multiple thousands of dollars less in cost). Based on the sonic issues you are describing I don't think it's going to be your answer.

Good luck in your search.

Jerry

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#2894410 - 12/06/17 11:13 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Randelph Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 391
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
One of the main reasons I bought the PA4X was for the arranger functions, to be able to work up classic old songs quickly without having to be spending hours learning and then sequencing drums and bass parts, saving my wrists from hours of computer mousing. Now that I'm returning it I will probably buy the Casio MZ-X500, which gets a stellar review from Keyboard Magazine, the gracious host of this forum. They say it punches well above it's price tag.

I'm waiting to hear back from Casio as to whether you can save complete performances, with the style, as a MIDI file, which I can then translate to my live rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it live as my sole keyboard - it's only got 61 keys, they're cheap-feeling, and it has built-in speakers. Looks like a toy, sounds like a monster, is the verdict. It would be great if they end up coming out with a 76 key 'professional' version, with decent keys and Aftertouch.


S,
Iíve had a Casio MZ-X500 for about 6 months now and really enjoy it, but it sounds like my needs are very different than yours. I like the auto accompaniment for the rhythms, but thatís about it. You could hit up the x500 Casio Music Forum, most of the people there donít know much, but Brad the moderator knows the answer to most questions.

The pluses in my book:
- Speakers are good (but not great), sufficient for parties and smaller gigs, practice

- I mostly like the sounds! Am relieved by this, having had a Casio Wk 7600 and hated. the sounds. The hex layers give you a lot to work with for sound sculpting, realtime mixing of 6 sounds!

- The keybed is decent, not horrible like the WK 7600, i can get good dynamics out of it. Of course its not on a par with the XS7 and M3 that Iíve had.

- The pads are a hoot! They feel good, have good velocity response, and do a lot of different things. Definitely a big plus on this board that other arrangers donít have

- The UI is pretty darn intuitive. YMMV depending on what youíre trying to do, but having suffered thru the Yamaha XS, its a breath of fresh air for the most part.

- I enjoy the rhythms for the most part, am kind of surprised how much i enjoy them, but then again i haveníít had an arranger in over 10 years

- it has mono mode and quite a few synth parameters

- expression pedal input, though which one will work with it is not completely obvious

- 250MB of room for your own samples!

- 9 faders for organ and hex layer levels!

- good effects, donít detest them like i did on the 7600


The minuses:
- It feels unfinished. The number of sounds in many categories is seriously underwhelming, and most dissapointing, its biggest claim to fame for me, the hex layers, has mostly been developed by Casio for EDM. Keep in mind that the hex layers can use any of the boards ROM, and ideally theyíd have developed mind blowing hex layers for all categories of sound, but they didnít

- hex layers, again. Their fantastic achievement, and they didnít make it particularly user friendly. You play one, and you have no idea what sound is associated with a particular fader, or what its key range or velocity range is. Infuriating! I had a brainstorm one night and realized they could fit all the important mapping information for any given hex layer on a single page (a lot of info, but still you could reasonably do it), so you wouldnít have to be stumbling around in the dark. Iím not holding my breath on this one. An ipad app for the hex tones would be heavenly, all that glorious power made useable!!!

- I lucked out with the keybed i got, its relatively quiet and is Ďdecentí, not bad, expressively playable. Others at the Casio Music Forums have complained of noisy keybeds from the start. In general, thatís been my experience of unweighted Casio keybeds, the quality is inconsistent from board to board

- The 9 faders cannot be used beyond the organ and hex layers. Would be SO sweet, for example, to have the ability to control the various volumes (4 sounds, accomp., mic, etc., a total of 9 different volumes!) with these faders instead of having to jump to various mixing pages. Unlike some arrangers, thereís no external knob to control the balance between the keyboard sounds and the accompaniment.

- No easy way to tweak the fx without getting into a menu

- Only 2 insert fx, and 1 is auto assigned to accompaniment, so another step to get a second one for the sounds. When i did it froze the keyboard. A bug

- Thereís apparently a number of bugs that are not being addressed. There was a 1.5 OS update awhile ago (6 months? A year?), and nothing since. Starting to feel abandoned by Casio

- Besides the pitch and mod wheels, thereís only two assignable knobs for tweaking. Theyíre natively assigned to bass and mids, and come in handy so often iím reluctant to assign them to anything else!

- relative lack of online video tutorials, again, a sign of neglect on casios part

- Is only 61 keys


Overall, as someone who mostly likes this keyboard cause its lightweight, has decent sounds for its price range, has good onboard speakers, crazy pads and decent action, iím pretty happy with it, and considering i bought it used for around $800 itís been a great keyboard for what i needed, a monumental upgrade from the WK 7600. Been realizing though that iíd consider spending up to $1,500 if i could get an upgrade in the built-in speakers and keybed. Would love to audition the new Korg PA 700 to compare the action, sounds and speakers.
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Nord Stage 88 Classic / Casio MZ-X500 / Yamaha melodica, soprano and alto recorders / Various congas and djembes
Roland Street Cube EX / QSC K10, K8.2 / SS V.3
Blue Encore 300, EV ND76



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#2894411 - 12/06/17 11:33 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Randelph]
J. Dan Offline
Bannination Free Since '08
10k Club

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 11316
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I refuse to read a post that doesn't fit on my screen.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2894519 - 12/07/17 09:58 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Worth]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Worth
I am pretty sure this is incorrect . You can EQ the individual piano sound and or any of the accompaniment sounds onboard the keyboard without this generally affecting the global EQ of the keyboard generally


Sure, you can do this with nearly every modern keyboard. But it involves menu diving. And then wouldn't you have to save it to that patch so as not to lose it on the next song when you're playing another patch? And then, on the next gig, I'm re-EQing that patch for the acoustics of this room? Seems onerous. Especially since the basses also have no bottom end. I've never had this issue with my Alesis or Kurzweil pianos, which sound good in every room, through the Spacestation.

Originally Posted By: Worth
Itís unfortunate that folks are not able to have sufficient time to dig into this instrument.


Which became an issue, nearing my return window. Rather safe than sorry. Although, I started second-guessing myself the moment I dropped it off at Fed-Ex. frown
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894537 - 12/07/17 10:30 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: jerrythek]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: jerrythek
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
One of the main reasons I bought the PA4X was for the arranger functions, to be able to work up classic old songs quickly without having to be spending hours learning and then sequencing drums and bass parts, saving my wrists from hours of computer mousing. Now that I'm returning it I will probably buy the Casio MZ-X500, which gets a stellar review from Keyboard Magazine, the gracious host of this forum. They say it punches well above it's price tag.

I'm waiting to hear back from Casio as to whether you can save complete performances, with the style, as a MIDI file, which I can then translate to my live rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it live as my sole keyboard - it's only got 61 keys, they're cheap-feeling, and it has built-in speakers. Looks like a toy, sounds like a monster, is the verdict. It would be great if they end up coming out with a 76 key 'professional' version, with decent keys and Aftertouch.


I am a big fan of Casio, and previous employee/current friend and sometimes hire of the company. But I have to say that as nice as the MZ is, it doesn't "fight" in the Tyros 5/Genos/Pa4x category (and how could we expect it to - it's multiple thousands of dollars less in cost). Based on the sonic issues you are describing I don't think it's going to be your answer.

Good luck in your search.

Jerry


As I said, I wouldn't use the Casio live, just at home to work up new songs rather than continue to spend hours on my computer sequencer using a mouse. I am having the beginnings of either carpal tunnel issues or they stem from a car accident a few years ago. In any event, sequencing bass and especially drum parts always take me so much longer than keyboard parts, obviously. Being a nit-picker also doesn't help with that. So I walk away from hours of mousing shaking my wrists. I have to cut back. If that means "cheating" by using an arranger to quickly work up those parts, then translating them to my live rig, so be it. $1,000 is chump change compared to losing my hands.

How do you think the Casio would do in this situation? Would every 'Slow Country Song' that I worked up end up having basically the same drums and bass patterns? This is something I'm still fuzzy about with arrangers. Of course, I'm assuming that all songs created with the different styles can be saved as a MIDI file, to import to my sequencer for Program Change assignments to my live rig. The manual I downloaded is unclear on that.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894593 - 12/07/17 02:42 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Worth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
Sorry synthaholic thatís not correct either . I am not trying to be argumentative but there are many features that unfortunately folkes donít know are incorporated into the korg pa4x . Literally any edit you make to to sounds , styles ,effects splits , keyboard parts drums , EQ edits ,balance of sounds , literally everything is customisable and can be saved as either a keyboard set or in the song book and instantly able to be recalled .

Furthermore if you know that youíre playing at different venues regularly and you know that the acoustics of the room are different from venue to venue, you can save your keyboard set ups in your set list for each venue that you play, so that you do not have to reconfigure your EQ settings every time you play at a different venue. You simply press one button and everything is set up just as you had designed it the last time you were at that venue . The song book and set list features are the most underrated and understated features of the korg pa4x .

This is stuff that probably is not publicised well enough but its important for people that have an interest in these machines to get accurate information .


Edited by Worth (12/07/17 02:53 PM)

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#2894615 - 12/07/17 04:04 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Worth]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Worth
Sorry synthaholic thatís not correct either . I am not trying to be argumentative but there are many features that unfortunately folkes donít know are incorporated into the korg pa4x . Literally any edit you make to to sounds , styles ,effects splits , keyboard parts drums , EQ edits ,balance of sounds , literally everything is customisable and can be saved as either a keyboard set or in the song book and instantly able to be recalled .

Furthermore if you know that youíre playing at different venues regularly and you know that the acoustics of the room are different from venue to venue, you can save your keyboard set ups in your set list for each venue that you play, so that you do not have to reconfigure your EQ settings every time you play at a different venue. You simply press one button and everything is set up just as you had designed it the last time you were at that venue . The song book and set list features are the most underrated and understated features of the korg pa4x .

This is stuff that probably is not publicised well enough but its important for people that have an interest in these machines to get accurate information .


Thank you, Worth. You're not argumentative at all, you're informative. I really wish the manual had been better written. I downloaded and read everything that I thought would be pertinent to my situation before ordering it, and it's really skimpy on things like this. They totally gloss over so much of the capabilities of this keyboard.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894669 - 12/08/17 03:23 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Worth Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
Itís always difficult from a marketing perspective to know what, of the multiple features in an arranger ,other than the main features , will become really strong selling points . I had my korg pa1x for 10 years and even co produced a dvd called ď korg arranger secrets ď some years ago because there was so much under the hood that people generally did not know about ,that were great features . In the end I think I only really got to grips with 60% of the keyboards features . Now I have the pa4x I reckon I will have this for another 10 years and itís features are much deeper .

I wish I had more time to really dig in in terms of sound design but these days I spend more time playing and accompanying than learning . If I have any questions I pop over to the korg forum . The people there are super friendly and helpful .

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#2894741 - 12/08/17 12:47 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 937
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic


As I said, I wouldn't use the Casio live, just at home to work up new songs rather than continue to spend hours on my computer sequencer using a mouse. I am having the beginnings of either carpal tunnel issues or they stem from a car accident a few years ago. In any event, sequencing bass and especially drum parts always take me so much longer than keyboard parts, obviously. Being a nit-picker also doesn't help with that. So I walk away from hours of mousing shaking my wrists. I have to cut back. If that means "cheating" by using an arranger to quickly work up those parts, then translating them to my live rig, so be it. $1,000 is chump change compared to losing my hands.

How do you think the Casio would do in this situation? Would every 'Slow Country Song' that I worked up end up having basically the same drums and bass patterns? This is something I'm still fuzzy about with arrangers. Of course, I'm assuming that all songs created with the different styles can be saved as a MIDI file, to import to my sequencer for Program Change assignments to my live rig. The manual I downloaded is unclear on that.


I don't feel the Casio offers the variety and quality of arrangements/Styles that those top-tier product do. What it has is OK/good, but just not in the league of the others. So your realism (in the parts played) and variety of styles per genre would likely suffer. Again, I'm not dissing it, but you get what you pay for (most of the time).

Jerry

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