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#2890118 - 11/13/17 02:43 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
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Loc: Where the wild things are
I'm also thinking this will sound great through my Spacestation!
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#2890195 - 11/14/17 07:04 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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Loc: Where the wild things are
Aidan - are you connecting with that keybed and the acoustic piano? Would you consider the keybed more piano-like or more synth-like? I'm hoping the latter.

I've been thinking of songs I know just from listening to them hundreds of times over the years that I could probably add to my repertoire right off the bat using just a Style. A handful of Sinatra songs come to mind that don't have distinctive Nelson Riddle arrangements, like 'Learnin' The Blues'.




I think the PA4X will also come in handy in a month when I play a lot of Christmas parties. I absolutely hate playing Christmas carols but depending on the variety of Styles it might be a lot less painful this year. wink
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

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#2892384 - 11/25/17 01:02 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 6212
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: Aidan


Why?

* I tried the Tyros briefly in a couple of live situations last week, and everything iMissRichardTee has said about his own experiences instantly came back to me. Quite clearly, the Tyros is a board which is optimised for home playing.

* For next year's Joni Mitchell tribute gigs, I'm going to need a board which will allow me to add convincing strings, sax and flutes and double guitars where needed. This has all those in spades. I might even conceivably get away with using this as my only board on that project.





And Mr Tee asks:

(Now don't be throwing things at me, but believe it or not my love and hate for tyros continues!)

But I wanted to ask your thoughts on, for starters, the ac piano.. I guess the concert grand.
What is your take on playing it? Because carrying an 88 is becoming an issue .. I have two choices, either my Roland G6
or the Tyros 4. I have been opting for T4.
I have such mixed up feelings about the piano. Although the two octave piano is actually quite useful for Latin style playing! To be honest, that 2 oct piano, actually shines whenever I take a quasi Latin type solo. I am soloing with one note only, but being in doubled octaves is very cool.

But back to meat and potatoes concert piano - what can you say about your experience with it? I can put it this way ( as inarticulate as this is ) When I play the tyros piano, I have a restricted feeling.. as long as I get in a certain zone with the tone settings, either on it, or the amps or both ( I know not!) I can kind of make it work ( Thanksgiving I did a 7.5 hour gig on it! )
My feeling as I play with it, is like riding a young unbroken horse, where my positive playing zone with t4 can easily slip away. I cannot explain this weirdness any better.
It relates to my touch, and the various settings, including changing the volume ( I am prone to remixing volume of bass and piano and strings often- but I feel I have to restrict this with piano- weird Man, weird )
I wonder about reverb also... anyone with suggestions about reverb, that would be appreciated as well.
What is it about this keyboard that is so "creepy" to play?
But that is through one side of my mouth... cause I still play the darned thing.


Edited by I-missRichardTee (11/25/17 01:08 PM)
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#2892551 - 11/26/17 02:52 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Sorry, I've been on the road for a couple of days, but it seems a couple of people want an update on the PA4X. So here goes...

As far as the keybed is concerned, it's more synth than piano. It's quite a good action, though the nearest I can compare it, through experience, is the Motif XS7 I once owned. It's slightly stiffer, perhaps, and certainly has more 'push back' than the Kronos 61 actions (there was one of the latter in the shop I compared it with).

The pianos and EPs are certainly more complex and flexible than those on the Tyros but they're some way behind Yamaha and Roland's top of the line digitals pianos. Suitably tweaked, I could get through a gig on them, provided it wasn't a jazz trio or something which needs very nuanced, considered playing.

The German and Italian pianos (the latter available only after OS 2.0 upgrade is installed) in the PA4X are OK but the consensus of opinion among owners appears to be one of general dissatisfaction and some people have purchased the Wavesart sample of a Yamaha C7, ironically enough, priced at around 150.

However...

Just a few weeks into ownership, I'm seriously wondering whether I took a wrong turn, here. For a highly-tweakable synth/arranger using 'meat and potatoes' sounds, the Korg has a lot going for it.

But when it comes to orchestral and other 'acoustic' sounds (with a couple of odd exceptions), the voices just do not have the realism of Tyros/Genos. Articulations are limited by comparison and lots of voices have an artificial 'synthy' sheen about them. Have a listen to this Genos woodwind demo uploaded by KC user pjd...

Woodwind demo

I can tell you authoritatively that there is nothing on board the Korg that comes close to this level of sophistication. And for me, that was one of the joys of playing the Tyros 4 I'm a lazy bugger who can't be bothered to work up pass-by-pass orchestral pieces on a DAW using Vienna or East-West libraries. The Tyros was a quick way of realising these sort of ideas.

I'd like to give the Korg another week or so but frankly, right now, my mind is wandering towards getting it sold before Christmas and then picking up either a Tyros 5 or Genos early in the new year. Yep, the Korg is more compact, better built, has more flexibility and programmability but at the end of the day, if the sounds you want just aren't there, the rest doesn't count for a lot.

Tee, I hear what you say about the Tyros keyboard and pianos. The only thing I would mention is that some people claim the Genos keyboard is slightly stiffer my one brief encounter with it, however, would suggest that the difference is very slight. I think it's not so much the weight (or lack of it) but the fact that it has quite a deep 'throw' on the keys.

On reverb, yeah, Yamaha smothers pretty much everything in it, so for live use, I'd say you'd have to come up with customised user voices with the DSP dialled right back. An external mixer with decent EQ capabilities would probably help too, I'm guessing.
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#2892582 - 11/26/17 08:36 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/05
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Loc: Southern Calif.
My god, the woodwind demo sounds freaking fantastic.

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#2892586 - 11/26/17 08:57 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: zxcvbnm098]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 08/17/12
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As an occasional arranger user for some 20 years and also a full band member using the standard collection of regular keyboards we all talk about here, all I can say is while the quality of the sounds is certainly very important, I'll again ask for the zillionth time this one simple question:

Aidan, what are you using for stage amplification?

So much of the subtleties you talk about are totally lost in a noisy venue with bad acoustics then add in powered PA speakers most of us use that are hardly studio monitor quality...

Bob

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#2892600 - 11/27/17 02:53 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Jazzmammal]
Aidan Offline
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Bob, I get your point and there is certainly some truth in it. If it were just a subjective judgement about 'tone', I might even concede it entirely. But the presence of complex articulations will make a difference even with less than ideal amplification. OK, you may not pick up the key noise on some of those wind sounds in the example I posted, but you would still definitely hear the slurs, rises and falls, and overall legato. And these are areas where the PA4X decidedly trails the Yamaha keyboards.
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#2892632 - 11/27/17 06:14 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
pjd Offline
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Registered: 09/14/12
Posts: 92
Loc: Massachusetts
If would like to hear more Genos demos, please cruise over to:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-snap-review/

Aidan, thanks for your feedback about the Pa4x, T4/5, and Genos. It's quite helpful.

All the best -- pj

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#2892677 - 11/27/17 08:54 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: pjd]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
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Loc: S. Ca. USA
Bob the mammalian with jazz highlights smile

Well what kind of pa speakers are you suggesting?
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#2892949 - 11/28/17 03:32 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Worth Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 31
What do you think of this piano Aidan compared to the tyros or Genos ?

https://youtu.be/tTZHhao9a78

When you play orchestral stuff does it sound like this ?

https://youtu.be/M2wFW3dpRNU

Just trying to get a better understanding of what you are hearing through your speaker .

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#2892989 - 11/28/17 09:43 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1800
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Bob the mammalian with jazz highlights smile

Well what kind of pa speakers are you suggesting?


The expensive ones like Dave Ferris uses. They're 4K each or something. Fulcrum's maybe, I can't remember.

Bob

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#2892993 - 11/28/17 10:25 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Jazzmammal]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
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I wish I could afford the Fulcrums , or L' Acoustics. I'm a step down with the RCF TT08As. Still quite excellent though. Under 3K for a pair.

Al Quinn, Moe, Chuck and a few others here have them. Best bang for the buck in the higher end Pro Audio category.

Recommended.
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#2892996 - 11/29/17 12:37 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Dave Ferris]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
RCF TT08As. Still quite excellent though. Under 3K for a pair.


Everything I've seen online has been $1999 EACH.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2892998 - 11/29/17 02:59 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: J. Dan]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Worth, difficult to compare with the piano video, as it's quite obviously captured under sub-optimal conditions but yes, close by the sound of it. The Bonners video of the strings and choirs, yeah pretty much identical to what I hear.

On the T4 I had, piano and strings were actually pretty weak points, although the latter could be improved considerably by combining them with other sounds. The newer Seattle Strings on the T5 helped, but the real game-changer in that was the advent of the Ensemble option.

If I had to sum up, I'd say that the PA4X is stronger on APs, EPs, clavs and organs. Guitars is about a dead heat. But T5/Genos beats the Korg hands down on woodwind, (most) brass and mostly thanks to the Ensemble function strings.

Still living with the PA4X here, trying my best to give it a fair chance.
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Yamaha CP4 | Casio PX-5S | Yamaha Tyros 5-76 | Hammond SK1 | Hammond SK2 | Kurzweil PC361 | Moog Sub 37

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#2893076 - 11/29/17 09:03 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
I may as well answer a few of these.

Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
The main screen displays the programs for the 1 LOWER and 3 UPPER channels. Can you go to other screens and see all the other MIDI channels in the same way? If I'm converting a bunch of my MIDI sequences it would be so much faster assigning Korg sounds with the touchscreen.


Yes, you can. Once you load a SMF into the Sequencer each MIDI channel is displayed with an icon of the type of sound - strings, brass, etc. Touch a channel and it opens up the same screens you use for selecting the UPPER/LOWER sounds.
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The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

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#2893080 - 11/29/17 09:17 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Aidan - are you connecting with that keybed and the acoustic piano? Would you consider the keybed more piano-like or more synth-like? I'm hoping the latter.


More synth-like. I was told it is the TP8/s, which I believe is Fatar's premium synth action.


Quote:
I think the PA4X will also come in handy in a month when I play a lot of Christmas parties. I absolutely hate playing Christmas carols but depending on the variety of Styles it might be a lot less painful this year. wink


It will be painful. The few Christmas styles I found kinda suck.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2893083 - 11/29/17 09:39 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: heavy_keys]
Legatoboy Online   content
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good luck with it!
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#2893087 - 11/29/17 09:51 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 6212
Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: Aidan


Tee, I hear what you say about the Tyros keyboard and pianos. The only thing I would mention is that some people claim the Genos keyboard is slightly stiffer my one brief encounter with it, however, would suggest that the difference is very slight. I think it's not so much the weight (or lack of it) but the fact that it has quite a deep 'throw' on the keys.

On reverb, yeah, Yamaha smothers pretty much everything in it, so for live use, I'd say you'd have to come up with customised user voices with the DSP dialled right back. An external mixer with decent EQ capabilities would probably help too, I'm guessing.


Thank you for in depth comments on these arranger workstations.
The t4 has a global detailed 5 band eq... I am wondering why you suggest additional mixer/EQ?

I hope you are patiently evaluating the Korg successfully. But part of me hopes you end up with Genos!
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#2893709 - 12/02/17 06:04 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Update: I've had a better week with the Korg. I'm beginning to appreciate its flexibility more and by combining my own sounds and customising them, I'm starting to like what I hear. This is an instrument which needs some dialling in and making your own for a start, most of the styles are too busy but once stripped back and everything is rebalanced, it's starting to make a lot more sense.
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#2893937 - 12/04/17 02:01 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
Update: I've had a better week with the Korg. I'm beginning to appreciate its flexibility more and by combining my own sounds and customising them, I'm starting to like what I hear. This is an instrument which needs some dialling in and making your own for a start, most of the styles are too busy but once stripped back and everything is rebalanced, it's starting to make a lot more sense.


I decided over the weekend to send mine back. I'm extremely bummed. It fit the bill for me completely, except for one thing: it was a huge disappointment live. Through headphones it sounds gorgeous. Live, not so much. To me, the pianos have no life to them, with not a lot of variation between them, and the basses have no bottom, other than the Moog types. Everything is also drenched in reverb, with no front panel control over it - you have to go menu diving.

I took it last week to two regular gigs. One is a monthly member mixer at a country club, all carpeting, dead room. The second was all reflectives, very auditorium sounding if the volume creeps up. It sounded bad at both, through my Spacestation. I asked opinions of people who have heard me for years. They were also unimpressed, saying my old piano sounded much better. What a pisser.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2893939 - 12/04/17 02:23 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Aidan Offline
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Hmm. I've yet to hear mine live but I must admit to having reservations the pianos through my nearfields remind me very much of the two Rolands I've owned, and they were always problematic live.

Having said that, some work on the EQing and DSP might improve things greatly but it depends if you're prepared to put in a lot of work customising every style you use. The common thread running through arrangers of all description is that they are tilted more towards home use. Yes, you can probably get something useable out of them, but it will require work.

I must say, my gut instinct (and one of the reasons for buying the Korg) was that it would be much closer to the finished article out of the box than Tyros/Genos. So I'm a bit disappointed with your gig report.

For me, the PA4X continues to be an enigma. One minute I'm inspired by the potential for customisation, the next I'm baldly disappointed by the overall result.

One thing which really gets me is that the voicings in the styles sound very 'lumpy', whereas Yamaha's transitioning between chords sounds far more natural. There's a bit of an art in playing arrangers cleanly and the Korg seems to make that far more difficult I'm not really sure why.

Above all, when I had the Tyros, musical ideas were flowing from my fingers like running water. The Korg hasn't inspired me to write a single thing. I think I'm done here the next move will be a Genos, once I've got the money together.
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#2893960 - 12/04/17 04:29 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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I converted about 10 of my MIDI files to all-Korg, with mixed results. On 'Something' (Beatles) the drums and the Carlos Guitar sounded great live. In fact, I have no issues with the drums on the PA4X at all. It's mainly the AP, EP, and basses that decided it for me. On my instrumental version of Anita Baker's 'Rapture', the electric pianos were muddy, with no clarity. On both those gigs last week I was cycling through the EPs, looking for one that popped, to no avail. Again, through headphones nearly every one of the EPs sounded fantastic. Anecdotal, I realize.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2893965 - 12/04/17 05:00 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
Aidan Offline
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Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Yup. Very difficult to judge these things until you get them 'out in the wild'. I just watched this Peter Baartmans demo of the Tyros 5 and it might just be the way for me to go. No great extra expense to pick up a good used 76-note example and it's got 80% of what's on the Genos anyway.

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#2893974 - 12/04/17 05:36 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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One of the main reasons I bought the PA4X was for the arranger functions, to be able to work up classic old songs quickly without having to be spending hours learning and then sequencing drums and bass parts, saving my wrists from hours of computer mousing. Now that I'm returning it I will probably buy the Casio MZ-X500, which gets a stellar review from Keyboard Magazine, the gracious host of this forum. They say it punches well above it's price tag.

I'm waiting to hear back from Casio as to whether you can save complete performances, with the style, as a MIDI file, which I can then translate to my live rig. Unfortunately I won't be able to use it live as my sole keyboard - it's only got 61 keys, they're cheap-feeling, and it has built-in speakers. Looks like a toy, sounds like a monster, is the verdict. It would be great if they end up coming out with a 76 key 'professional' version, with decent keys and Aftertouch.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2894008 - 12/05/17 01:17 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Ok gents, ( and ladies here, let us know) 3 hour trip north on unrelated business, then a stop at Hollywood Guitar Center... only one guess why I went there. I played the Genos.
My review is not going to be as good as many I have seen before. So you know that upfront. I was a bit sleepy from driving in low sleep and heavy heavy winds, which were tossing the car about on freeways.

Genos... the keyboard feels very different than Tyros 4 and likely T5. I like the Genos keyboard better for sure than T4 and likely 5.

The volume sliders ( assignable for other functions as well ) are light years ahead of Tyros. Volume sliders were one of my biggest gripes on my T4.. for all I know mine are defective. But Genos sliders are likely twice the real estate of T4, which is always better for subtle incremental changes... just like on a mixer. Not only are the sliders using double the real estate but they feel more substantial.

The brain trusts at GC chose to place this $5400 plus tax keyboard wedded in mono to a 150 dollar amp. Yaa.
So my sense of tone was hampered. I used phones borrowed from store, no clue of there quality.. so my comments about tone, are iffy.

The touch screen seemed very responsive to me... what do I know, right,, but Screen changes seemed instantaneous.

One weird unexpected negative, that may have an explanation- there seemed to be much less styles. Very odd.
I guess others have to be added?!

The general vibe of the physicality of Genos was quite different that T4 or 5. It seems better built, but again what do I know.. but I will stand by that until someone more authoritarian says differently.
I suspect the basses were a bit improved.
More fender Rhodes pianos was nice... how good they are I am hesitant to say, but certainly no less than T4 or 5.
My hunch is basses and EP's are better
I have never liked strings on Yamaha in general, so Genos strings did not over impress, however the more classical or small ensemble strings were good for sure.

The Touch screen info, seemed well laid out... more like a Korg!!!

If I had the money, I would guess it is a strong contender.
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#2894009 - 12/05/17 01:19 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthaholic]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
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Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
I'm also thinking this will sound great through my Spacestation!


You have returned the Korg? I heard that Spacestation takes intelligent ( knowledge borrowed from others here) and patient experimenting to get AP's right!



Edited by I-missRichardTee (12/05/17 01:20 AM)
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#2894013 - 12/05/17 04:12 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Aidan Offline
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
One weird unexpected negative, that may have an explanation- there seemed to be much less styles. Very odd.
I guess others have to be added?!


I think a lot of the styles have been shuffled into a 'legacy' folder. You can also download some missing T5 styles from Yamaha's website, I believe. But on paper, Genos has more styles than T5.
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#2894056 - 12/05/17 08:00 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Synthoid Online   content
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Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
I have never liked strings on Yamaha in general


Me either. They always seem a bit thin to me. I prefer big and warm synthy strings. Korg and Roland do a much better job in that area.
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#2894066 - 12/05/17 08:47 AM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: Synthoid]
Rofox Offline
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
I've followed this thread with interest as I have a PA3X with the PA-AS amp/speakers and also a space station.
The pianos are passable through good quality headphones, the Korg speakers, and a decent PA (in a band situation) but don't really have sufficient "body" and are weak and ill defined through the Space Station 3. I bought the SS3 as a one box solution on the reviews of this site. The addition of a bass amp did little to improve the sound.
What did improve the sound was to ditch the Korg samples and load replacements.
Have a rummage around Korg Forums and check out Reuben and Anthony Sharman.
I'm currently very pleased with the fullness of the pianos, even through the SS3.
With so much sample memory in the PA4X you'll be delighted with what can be achieved.
Stick with it Aiden, it's a long and steep journey but joy awaits!

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#2894195 - 12/05/17 08:19 PM Re: It's goodbye Tyros 4 and hello... [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: I-missRichardTee
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
I'm also thinking this will sound great through my Spacestation!


You have returned the Korg? I heard that Spacestation takes intelligent ( knowledge borrowed from others here) and patient experimenting to get AP's right!



If I was just using it for the sound under my fingers this would be good advice (...and if I had any intelligence). But EQing for the piano means the rest of the accompaniment, plus the bass, plus the drums will have that EQ. In fact, that was a problem I was foreseeing with my plan to send the drums & bass through the second pair of outputs: the basses are thin, and correcting that on my mixer affected the kick drum and low toms negatively.

I only use the Spacestation by itself for low volume gigs, but that's the majority of the gigs I play.
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