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#2909304 - 02/13/18 11:27 AM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
As I once heard a great guitatist say, "...all the notes you need are in there (guitar) and to create a great song, it's up to you (the guitar player) to get them out, at the right time and in the right order."


+1 on "at the right time". Phrasing has a lot to do with the spaces in between the notes and the ones that are not played...more so than the notes themselves at times...
cool
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#2909360 - 02/13/18 02:38 PM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Yeah, spaces work, but it's also a matter of expression. Sammy Cahn explained his take on Frank's "phrasing" in telling about him instead of singing the word "lonely" in one of his songs, he stretched the word out in a way that while still fitting in the metre of the song, actually ACCENTUATED the feeling of being lonely. I'm certain some guitarists can do this on their instrument as well.
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#2909371 - 02/13/18 03:49 PM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: whitefang]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Yeah, spaces work, but it's also a matter of expression. Sammy Cahn explained his take on Frank's "phrasing" in telling about him instead of singing the word "lonely" in one of his songs, he stretched the word out in a way that while still fitting in the metre of the song, actually ACCENTUATED the feeling of being lonely. I'm certain some guitarists can do this on their instrument as well.
Whitefang


That's cool! cool
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#2909380 - 02/13/18 04:50 PM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Originally Posted By: DocPate
As I once heard a great guitatist say, "...all the notes you need are in there (guitar) and to create a great song, it's up to you (the guitar player) to get them out, at the right time and in the right order."


+1 on "at the right time". Phrasing has a lot to do with the spaces in between the notes and the ones that are not played...more so than the notes themselves at times...
cool


There can be many orders notes occur & sometimes how that's varied & stressed is part of a players vocabulary (i.e, style), sometimes part of what they're saying right then & sometimes just something they copied from someone else & are just throwing in.
That last can still be legit expression; e.g., consider a player quoting a pop or classic tune for contextual ref...but it can also just be a cliche that seems to fit.
Same thing w/ diff approaches to busyness or relaxed playing: sometimes it's the thing some music needs, sometimes it's clutter or inability to exceed.

Here's one of the best examples of expressive phrasing I've heard recently; it's next up for my BBK thread [http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2882827/back_to_the_basics_w_BB#Post2882827] & subject of current study.
It's from early 1957, a time when he'd already established his skills as a player & singer but seems to me to be having some probs in both material selection & production.

Anyhow, I'll post my comments there soon but here, dig how both he & the band shuffle along in a way unlike like his earlier tracks & how he does a few specific things such as sing even lazier than his by-then-established relaxed method & how he both interplays w/the band (he let's them finish a gtr phrase, (in a way later associated w/Fred McDowell) during the intro & during the solo [2:12~2:50] he starts w/a line too tired (or drunk?) to climb the stairs but staggers around a key note til able to summon the strength (bent note @ 2:25) to go on somewhat wanderingly til, just before the next verse, the gtr simply says, "Aw so what !" [2:48]
I think he did all that v. deliberately.

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#2909468 - 02/14/18 06:40 AM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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@ d, BB has always been great at "expressive phrasing". Blues and Jazz give singers and guitar players a lot of room and freedom to improvise. I love it when that trumpet comes in out of nowhere in the clip...all genres include phrasing but in most cases it is written out on the sheets, especially in the melody lines. I think Bob Dylan was a true master at phrasing in the studio and on stage. Here's my favorite example of his expressive phrasing which could also be considered expressive writing:



cool


Edited by Larryz (02/14/18 06:44 AM)
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#2909552 - 02/14/18 10:33 AM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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[1]
Well, of course BBK's great at expressive playing. That's not news but what is is that in my recent & ongoing study of his career (which extends back to his earliest recordings) early on his vox were oft more expressive than his gtr.

I'll go back & look for when the trpt flashes but did ya dig the intro where BB caves in a line he's playing to allow the horns to finish that line ?
That's another type of expression that is rarely considered---players "passing the plate" (1 of 2 meanings that term has)...a sort of inverted expression ("I'ma set you up to play something that my line will have invoked")

[2]
While there are composers & arrangers who do notate phrasing, that usually amts to loudness dynamics & parenthetic phrase indications & which oft as not are added to transcriptions of recorded perfs rather than actually part of the orig.

[3]
As for the Dyl,, I disagree.
He is idiosyncratically distinctive & stylistic in his phrasing [so much so that almost everyone's got an imitation of him up their sleeve] but he's not a master.
Here's why: he's almost incapable of reproducing some of his most compelling vocals.
Watch this.....



The ability to develop multiple variations is a great talent...however the inability to focus & develop an idea isn't...in fact it's the opposite of mastery.
As much as I like the Dyl's work & respect his place in culture, he's simply not a master of his own performances.
He doesn't control them; they control him.

As another example, most who denigrate rap think of it's often sing-songy manner & say there's no talent involved.
Here's an example of how easy it isn't, for some....
[A blur isn't the same thing as a flow]



As I've often pointed out, it does no one good to ignore the reality of our heroes's limitations; in fact it's harmful.
It's suggests an inability to recognize their true achievements compared to their less valuable work &, further, it sometimes denies to other artists the recognition they deserve.
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#2909645 - 02/14/18 03:09 PM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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d, We will just have to agree to disagree. I and the Nobel Prize committee consider Dylan a master. As to his lack of memory in his live performances, we all get older. However, he truly amazes me with the number of lyrics and his poetic expressions (which some call phrasing), that he has written and for which he won the nobel prize. He can still recall and perform tons of his material. In his younger days his memory and ability to recall were and still are, unsurpassed IMHO. The volumes of music he has written and recorded exceeds just about anyone out there and how he can remember half of it is beyond belief. In the ancient days, poetic expression of the written words were intended to be played on instruments...Dylan was into rap before there was rap. His was more entertaining and less concerned with the shock factor IMHO.

ps. the trumpet parts were around 2:58 - 3:14...


Edited by Larryz (02/14/18 03:17 PM)
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#2909661 - 02/14/18 04:23 PM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Well, we may disagree, LarZ but that's b/c you seem to have got the same hero thing abt the Dyl as the for Big E.
I never said Bob doesn't deserve recognition for many things, including his distinctive style as a singer, just that he's not skilled at controlling that, ergo, not a master...& I gave a couple clear examples.
I never said anything abt his memory & I don't think that's has to do w/it.[*]
When he was young he seems to've rarely sung a song consistently the same way.
He won the Nobel for Literature, not his musical perfs, so I can't figure what that's to do w./anything under discussion here (musical phrasing & expression, particularly on gtrs) so really all yer saying there has naught to do w/ it, eh?

As to rap, that's a fave target for those heavy into "authentic" folk/blues/rock & there are some valid criticisms of it but more oft than not the slams on it have more to do w/ the same kinda prejudices as were cast at disco (or at one time toward country music or, dare I say, the Dyl himself.

My point is this: if one can't accurately recognize the lesser work or talents of those they admire then their appreciation of their real triumphs becomes suspect.


[* Although anyone tryna sing some of his songs w/thirty-'leven verses & 70 lines per verse is gonna falter once in a while...& there's a hilarious version of "Like A Rolling Stone" from the Isle of Wight on IT'S AN ELF PORTRAIT alb where he actually sings the same line 3 X in a row before he sanps back into it]
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#2909665 - 02/14/18 04:30 PM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: d]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Back more to the point...
Originally Posted By: Larryz
...(speaking of BB King track above) ... I love it when that trumpet comes in out of nowhere in the clip... he trumpet parts were around 2:58 - 3:14...

Oh, yes, behind the last verse...
another good example of players interweaving as they play, a matter of expressive phrasing in its own right.
At 3:00 BB starts a gtr phrase, the trp echoes, BB echoes that ((or maybe just finishes his line)...then [3:11] BB stretches the word "pleeeease" out, followed by a similar note from trpt [3:14].
Then BB & the drummer flam a climatic note/beat together @3:29/30.
You can almost see him holding the gtr neck up & swinging it down ! rimshot rawk
I hadn't noticed that stuff before---thanks ! wave
Ya get a tip O the hat over at BBK basics !
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#2909736 - 02/14/18 11:02 PM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Sorry d, We just have divergent views and never the twain shall meet. I have been talking "phrasing" with regard to both vocals and guitars. Dylan did not just win the Nobel prize for Literature. If you go back and read the accounts you'll find that he redefined the Nobel prize for literature based upon his musical poetic expression...which would include his phrasing, written material, contributions, knowledge and his many performances in the world of music. It is the 1st time the Nobel prize was given to a musician singer/songwriter. I stand by my inclusion of Bobby D and my prior comments on this thread and feel they are relevant even if you do not. For another example of Bob's phrasing, catch a copy of Tangled Up in Blue from his Blood On The Tracks album or Dear Landlord from John Westley, the list is endless and you can include any of the songs on that Highway 61 album (which is a favorite of mine)...

True, I put Elvis and Dylan on a very high pedestal due to their many accomplishments and they are a couple of my favorites. But a lot of their stuff is not of interest to me. Ray Charles and a host of others I could name, are just as important in what I enjoy listening too. Ray and Elvis are also masters at vocal phrasing and Ray plays some pretty hot keys too IMHO. They both re-arrange songs and do it their way, which is why they influence me so much. cool



Edited by Larryz (02/14/18 11:07 PM)
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#2909770 - 02/15/18 05:02 AM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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As Bob too, rarely ever played or sang any of his songs the same way twice, he seems to easily fall into Larry's wheelhouse.

And again, "phrasing" we know, is how one conveys a feeling for either the lyric or music. Dylan too, has often been able to do that eloquently. One example might be this favorite of mine(one of 'em) from HIGHWAY 61 Revisited:


I saw a documentary (Scorcese) that focused a bit on this cut. Some of the "outtakes" used had this tune being done in the same vein as "From A Buick 6", and Bob was unsatisfied. He asked to be left alone for a few minutes, and when everyone returned, he had the version you hear on the LP already worked out. But because Bob has the rep of not singing "pretty" and the rep too, of being an oddball personality, his sharp musical instincts often get overlooked. And both Bob And Elvis, while aspiring performers, both soaked up a wide variety of musical influences, you just know they had to come out sometimes, and both I'd say, did let them come out in proper context.
Whitefang
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#2909771 - 02/15/18 05:03 AM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: Larryz]
DocPate Offline
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I never will forget the first time I heard a guitar player bend a note. I thought, how great is that sound. Added a kind of loneliness to the song he was playing.

Now I know, he was "Phrasing".

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#2909930 - 02/15/18 02:55 PM Re: Phrasing and the importance of that in soloing [Re: DocPate]
whitefang Offline
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thu

Sure. Not only upon the first hearing of a bent note, but MY first bending of a note struck me much the same way. It can make the guitar both cry OR laugh! wink
Whitefang
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