Yamaha Genos

[Synthaholic]

I wonder if there's an arranger on the horizon from Casio to compete with Genos and PA4X? It looks like Roland has abandoned the market.

[Jazzmammal]

Stephen Fortner wrote a short blog "Why arranger keyboards matter":

 

https://www.synth-expert.com/news-blog/2017/10/6/why-arranger-keyboards-matter

 

This little article really rings a bell with me. A few years ago I tried to find out just what could be done with Ableton Live but I could not find anything at all that showed what this old fart calls real music. I found literally thousands of vids of kids doing loud and very obnoxious dubstep/EDM crap (to my ears) so I gave up.

 

If Ableton really can get close to a Genos with an unlimited library of clips and most importantly sounds it could be worth looking into. Abelton costs about $600 I guess and Kontakt another grand or so? I already have a PC3 76 that is highly regarded as a midi controller. I've never tried something like this but hey, what's retirement for anyway?

 

I'm going to follow Stephen's blog, he says there will be more on this.

 

Bob

[Mad_Maestro]

I have to laugh when I see some of you saying 5K for this is oh so expensive, no way you can justify it, etc. There are two scenarios being described here. OMB live gigs or retired folks home use. Either one can easily afford this.

 

If you're a full time player, about 30 gigs and it's paid for if you have a partner. 10-15 if it's just you. You older guys, how much did you spend 30 years ago to go on the road full time? For me it's 45 years ago (gasp). A used B3, Leslie and a Rhodes. About $3,500 in 1973. That's about 20K now. Five grand for the absolute best top of the line keyboard in today's money is dirt cheap guys.

 

People pay 45K for a nice pickup truck. They then load them up with jet skis, dirt bikes, camping gear, they tow boats and whatever else. How much does that all that gear cost for what's really just a hobby? Have some fun on the weekends type thing.

 

I know this forum is populated by stereotypical starving musicians living in our parents basements. WRONG! Plenty of money on this forum. Here we're talking about actually making money and doing serious music at home. How much do the tools cost a good auto mechanic? A carpenter? Whatever tradesman. How about scuba gear and the trips to use it? Or RC airplanes? Or golf. That ain't cheap either on an annual basis and forget about actual country club membership costs.

 

The Genos is totally worth it if you like arrangers. And paying for it? Most here have the money, it's just a matter of priorities and working it out.

 

Bob

 

 

 

Its not like we are buying a Synclavier. Although the Genos is about 3 to 4 times my budget but I'm not a professional I just play for fun. I agree with you its a matter of priorities etc. totally affordable for lot of people just not me.

[Mad_Maestro]

One of the other things I remember reading in Keyboard Magazine that arrangers are more popular in Europe and the workstation is more popular in America. Why that is I don't know. I just remember reading it.

[pjd]

Hi --

 

I had a chance to think a little more about the Genos specs. There is quite a big jump in the number of Mega Voices, Super Articulation voices, and Super Articulation 2 voices -- a bigger increase than we've seen with previous Tyros-to-Tyros upgrades.

 

This is enabled by the new tone generation hardware.

 

I think the end result will be highly detailed, expressive voices that are fun to play. It ain't no accident that Yamaha added a third articulation button in addition to the knobs and sliders.

 

I can't wait to play this thing!

 

More at: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-articulation-future/

 

All the best -- pj

 

[Synthaholic]

Stephen Fortner wrote a short blog "Why arranger keyboards matter":

 

https://www.synth-expert.com/news-blog/2017/10/6/why-arranger-keyboards-matter

 

This little article really rings a bell with me. A few years ago I tried to find out just what could be done with Ableton Live but I could not find anything at all that showed what this old fart calls real music. I found literally thousands of vids of kids doing loud and very obnoxious dubstep/EDM crap (to my ears) so I gave up.

 

If Ableton really can get close to a Genos with an unlimited library of clips and most importantly sounds it could be worth looking into. Abelton costs about $600 I guess and Kontakt another grand or so? I already have a PC3 76 that is highly regarded as a midi controller. I've never tried something like this but hey, what's retirement for anyway?

 

I'm going to follow Stephen's blog, he says there will be more on this.

 

Bob

 

Are the keyboard equivalents implemented well in Ableton & Kontact? If not, auditioning thousands of sounds could involve a lot of repetitive mousing. If that's the case, button pushing on the keyboard looks more attractive.

[Jazzmammal]

I get your question, I think it's similar to using a high end workstation now. My old Korg Pa1X has a ton of sounds. Like the Genos the style patches are not fixed, you can go in and start changing the individual instruments in the styles if you want. Still, hardware keyboards might have 1,000-1,500 patches while Kontakt has twice that or more.

 

You can already go crazy auditioning the sounds on my PC3 so yeah, I can just imagine doing it in Kontakt. But, that's part of the fun, right?

 

Bob

[burningbusch]

Seems to be some confusion about Ableton Live, Kontakt and how these compare to arrangers and other hardware. The main difference between Live and arrangers is that though they are both pattern-based, Live's patterns are, for the most part, preconfigured by the user. You can trigger a pattern to play twice, then move to another pattern, but you cannot on-the-fly have a pattern play in minor vs. major or a completely different progression. With arranger keyboards, the chords and progressions can be altered on-the-fly. Also, Live can contain recorded audio as well as MIDI in the patterns. It doesn't matter.

 

Kontakt is a sampler and doesn't really come with 1,000s of programs. Most sample libraries take a moment or two to load. Some take longer. Kontakt users generally load and then unload libraries, all of which takes time and in general multiple mouse clicks. It is possible to load several libraries into an instance of Kontakt. You would use an "instrument bank" to achieve this. You could then use MIDI program change to jump from one to another, much like a hardware synth. You are limited to 127 instruments.

 

Programs are different in Kontakt vs. hardware synths. In general, within Kontakt the program settings and samples/multisamples are saved as one. It is possible to save variations, but it's only been in the most recent versions of Kontakt that they introduced the "snapshot" which is really the program independent of the samples. This is more equivalent to the hardware synth's programs. Still, most Kontakt libraries are designed to be virtual remakes of the original instrument and provide controls specific to that instrument. So you interact, dial in the sound for a particular session/track. With hardware synths, you have extensive number of FXs that can be incorporated into the program. Kontakt comes with some basic FXs, but most people add better sounding FXs via track inserts using other 3rd party FXs. Now the issue becomes, how does all this get saved as a "program."

 

The Kronos, for example, comes with close to 3,000 programs. It would be extremely difficult to recreate all these sounds within Kontakt and have them available instantly as they are in hardware.

 

Busch.

 

[Synthoid]

I wonder if there's an arranger on the horizon from Casio to compete with Genos and PA4X?

 

I'd really be surprised. Casio never offered a lofty-priced, high-end arranger in the past.

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

Stephen Fortner wrote a short blog "Why arranger keyboards matter":

 

https://www.synth-expert.com/news-blog/2017/10/6/why-arranger-keyboards-matter

 

Miss you, Stephen!

 

-- pj

 

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

 

Interesting take by Mr. Fortner.

 

I do recall Pat Metheny using Ableton Live in the way that Fortner describes for his Orchestrion show. Live was not the obvious tool of choice, because the Orchestrion's sound generators were all physical, motorized objects: real drums, real marimbas, etc. that were MIDI-triggered.

 

Using MIDI pedals, he fired off pieces of his compositions - an intro piece for example, then the first movement, then maybe an improv section (chord progression, drum groove, etc.) where he solos as long as he wants, then the 2nd movement, the 3rd movement, a return to the 1st movement with variation 1, then variation 2, perhaps a fill, etc. I read in an Emusician article that he had over 400 Scenes set up in Ableton Live

[Barryjam]

Thank you, Busch, for the detailed discussion of the differences. Very helpful.

 

Bad Mister adds that Genos does far less in the direction of sound design/editing than the Montage.

 

Seems like Genos is very flexible for OMB on the fly, but it also requires attention to pressing the right buttons at the right time, a real performance skill in its own right. Personally, I might prefer to perform with fewer arrangement choices to allow me to concentrate on keyboard playing and background vocals.

 

[CalUKGR]

Could you please elaborate on the issues with T5, since I'm in the market for one...

 

I owned my T5 for about a year and half (bought factory-fresh). I'm still waiting for my Genos to arrive, at which time the T5 gets part-exchanged. I won't be entirely sorry to see it go. In truth, though, many of the issues I had with the Tyros 5 won't be addressed by the Genos, either. Things which annoyed me about the T5:

 

1. No audio over USB - Yamaha's top-of-the-line arranger keyboard did not have a built-in USB audio interface. The Genos doesn't, either. Baffling.

 

2. Yamaha Expansion Manager/Expansion Board - unwieldy, over-fussy and frankly a pain. Changing anything on your expansion board means reformatting the whole board and re-loading in everything again - every single time you want to make even the slightest change to the board's contents. It's time-consuming and hugely irritating.

 

3. The built-in sequencer. Unintuitive, complex and frankly a pain to use. Far more trouble than it was ever worth.

 

4. Aesthetics. I always hated the look of the Tyros keyboards. The Genos does improve upon this greatly, imo. Genos looks sleeker and more professional. It's almost as if Yamaha finally wants to take its flagship seriously.

 

...Just a few gripes, off the top of my head. Genos won't be that much better and many of the same shortcomings will persist. It'll just be an even better sounding the Tyros 5 with a few added bells and whistles, but as far as I can tell Yamaha have not reinvented the arranger in Genos. It's not a revolution, just a mild evolution, with an even higher price-tag attached to it.

[lsj]

just my two cents here, and I won't be buying the Genos due to the price, I was surprised to see the Genos comes with the joystick instead of the pitch and modulation wheels that I have been used to. really don't like the stick. afraid I might rip it out if I'm not careful. I presently own the psr-s950 and love it. the best sax voice out of any keyboard presently available or in my opinion better than any keyboard I have owned. one of the reasons I bought the keyboard. fooled many musicians and customers when I go on a break and get approached by them saying they could not see where the sax player was standing........Larry

[Synthaholic]

I wonder if there's an arranger on the horizon from Casio to compete with Genos and PA4X?

 

I'd really be surprised. Casio never offered a lofty-priced, high-end arranger in the past.

 

 

Yes, but they did jump into the arranger game a few years ago on a $500 keyboard. So they have devoted the resources. Hard to believe they would immediately abandon that tech. Just wondering if they've taken what they've learned and are going to introduce a truly pro arranger.

 

Oh, Mike Martin?

[Aidan]

One of the many people on the PSR forum who ordered the Genos sight unseen is selling it after only around 24 hours with it, having concluded that the Korg PA4X he already owns is a much better bet for gigging.

 

I've recently consumed almost every shred of YT footage I could find of both the PA4X and the Genos, and without admittedly laying my hands on either yet, I haven't seen anything from the Yamaha camp which put their new keyboard dramatically ahead in the game. Indeed, many of the Korg's 'bread and butter' sounds still appear to be way ahead.

 

Add to this a high level of possible sound customisation (against a very limited amount on either Tyros or Genos), the Korg's far more compact dimensions (making it also viable as a top board above an 88) and the fact that it costs a grand less...

 

I have a ticket for a Genos demo in a few weeks' time (presumably with Martin Harris at the helm). Maybe I'll be blown away. But at the moment, I have my doubts about that.

[GRollins]

One of the many people on the PSR forum who ordered the Genos sight unseen is selling it after only around 24 hours with it, having concluded that the Korg PA4X he already owns is a much better bet for gigging.

 

That does not inspire confidence.

 

Grey

[Aidan]

Another video I really don't see where Yamaha thinks it's going with this keyboard, to be honest. The kids making this sort of music aren't generally in a position to spend north of £4k on something which doesn't even really integrate with their studio (no transport controls, no audio over USB etc).

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-54xmiyjUrY

[konaboy]

@CalUKGR, thank you, appreciate the opinions of an owner. I can live with that, shame about the sequencer though.

 

Could you please elaborate on the issues with T5, since I'm in the market for one...

 

I owned my T5 for about a year and half (bought factory-fresh). I'm still waiting for my Genos to arrive, at which time the T5 gets part-exchanged. I won't be entirely sorry to see it go. In truth, though, many of the issues I had with the Tyros 5 won't be addressed by the Genos, either. Things which annoyed me about the T5:

 

1. No audio over USB - Yamaha's top-of-the-line arranger keyboard did not have a built-in USB audio interface. The Genos doesn't, either. Baffling.

 

2. Yamaha Expansion Manager/Expansion Board - unwieldy, over-fussy and frankly a pain. Changing anything on your expansion board means reformatting the whole board and re-loading in everything again - every single time you want to make even the slightest change to the board's contents. It's time-consuming and hugely irritating.

 

3. The built-in sequencer. Unintuitive, complex and frankly a pain to use. Far more trouble than it was ever worth.

 

4. Aesthetics. I always hated the look of the Tyros keyboards. The Genos does improve upon this greatly, imo. Genos looks sleeker and more professional. It's almost as if Yamaha finally wants to take its flagship seriously.

 

...Just a few gripes, off the top of my head. Genos won't be that much better and many of the same shortcomings will persist. It'll just be an even better sounding the Tyros 5 with a few added bells and whistles, but as far as I can tell Yamaha have not reinvented the arranger in Genos. It's not a revolution, just a mild evolution, with an even higher price-tag attached to it.

[ElmerJFudd]

Another video I really don't see where Yamaha thinks it's going with this keyboard, to be honest. The kids making this sort of music aren't generally in a position to spend north of £4k on something which doesn't even really integrate with their studio (no transport controls, no audio over USB etc).

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-54xmiyjUrY

 

Yamaha doesn't always select the best match for artist demos or nail it with style of demo... But that doesn't mean the instrument isn't very capable - after all the make some of the best quality instruments in every category acoustic, digital and electric. The tough part is knowing what type of artists will connect with it and all the ways they will use it.

[GRollins]

Interestingly, a Yamaha Tyros 5 has come up for sale on my local Craig's List--first one I've ever seen around here. Wonder if the seller plans on buying a Genos?

 

If anyone has an itch for a Tryos, I'll post the particulars. I'm not going for it...far more than I can justify spending on a keyboard.

 

Grey

[Aidan]

@CalUKGR, thank you, appreciate the opinions of an owner. I can live with that, shame about the sequencer though.

 

I actually don't mind the sequencer on my Tyros 4 but I've been used to working with Clavinova CVPs so not much of a learning curve. It is a bit rough and ready, admittedly.

 

Woody, good to see you here, btw enjoyed quite a few of your YouTube videos.

[SteveCoscia]

I wonder if there's an arranger on the horizon from Casio to compete with Genos and PA4X?

 

I'd really be surprised. Casio never offered a lofty-priced, high-end arranger in the past.

 

 

Yes, but they did jump into the arranger game a few years ago on a $500 keyboard. So they have devoted the resources. Hard to believe they would immediately abandon that tech. Just wondering if they've taken what they've learned and are going to introduce a truly pro arranger.

 

In 2011, I bought Casio's WK-7500 for about $500. This was my first keyboard purchase in more than 30 years. The WK-7500 is lots of bang for the buck - my initial intent for the purchase was to record musical ideas that were trapped in my head since the early 1980s. It served its purpose well - still does. The WK-7500's Pattern Sequencer turned out to be a great scratchpad sequencer for writing numerous multi-track pieces.

 

I assume that Casio's MZ-X500 is the new direction for this product category, although I could be wrong. A weighted action, 76 or 88 note MZ-X500 would be the killer to replace my WK-7500.

[Synthaholic]

I assume that Casio's MZ-X500 is the new direction for this product category, although I could be wrong. A weighted action, 76 or 88 note MZ-X500 would be the killer to replace my WK-7500.

 

I didn't even know this keyboard existed. Yeah, a 76 key without onboard speakers would be great.

[jerrythek]

I thought about starting a new thread, but decided to keep the forum nice and "tidy". I'll be reviewing the Genos shortly for EM/Keyboardmag online. So if you have questions/things you'd like covered let me know here, and I'll try to oblige.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Jerry

[pjd]

Hi Jerry --

 

Glad to hear you're going to write a review!

 

Two things that would be helpful are a list of newly sampled voices (vs. Tyros 5) and a list of the new DSP effects. Some folks -- myself included -- are comparing Genos vs. Montage so it would help to know what's new and above Montage voice- and sample-wise, too.

 

It's harder to do this kind of analysis for Genos and other Yamaha arrangers since Yamaha doesn't publish a waveform list for its arrangers (even though its possible to do some waveform-level editing in the Yamaha Expansion Manager application). Speaking of YEM, it would be good to know what Yamaha has planned for YEM and apps.

 

Does Yamaha provide any assistance or answer questions during the review process?

 

Thanks and all the best -- pj

 

[pjd]

Hi Jerry --

 

Now that the Genos Data List and Reference Manual are out, I took a crack at trying to relate some of the voices across Motif XF, Montage and Genos:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/first-analysis-genos-voices/

 

Yamaha renamed some T5 voices, so I had to relate a few voices by Bank Select MSB, LSB, and program change number.

 

Looking forward to your review -- pj

 

[Aidan]

I got a chance to play the Genos yesterday when I picked up my PA4X. Some quick first impressions:

 

* The sound is clearly a step up from Tyros, not in the actual voicings themselves but in the clarity. I presume the Genos has a superior DAC inside.

 

* It's also a better looking machine than Tyros not quite as big, though it still feels a little bigger than it absolutely needs to be. The matt black finish looks a bit more 'pro'.

 

* Construction itself is still quite cheap the case reminds me of the MOXF. The touch screen is nice and big but isn't all that responsive.

 

* I hadn't twigged until I saw and used them how the shape of the sliders resembles a drawbar!

 

* Drums are improved but they needed to be.

 

* Moving the multipad buttons over from left to right strikes me as a poor choice these are usually the sort of things you want to add in as a little fill, and your left hand is far more convenient.

 

Beyond all that, it's a case of evolution rather than revolution. It still sounds like a Tyros.

 

I had quite an interesting conversation with the dealer about the pre-launch publicity that Yamaha put out (focusing heavily on EDM etc). The UK dealers apparently believed Yamaha had lost its mind. Fortunately, post-launch, the retail market for these keyboards appears to have settled down into its customary model again. The dealer told me: "We were told: 'We're going for the younger market 50 to 70'!!"

 

It's a market which still appears to be doing all right for them. While I was in the shop, two customers came in to collect their new Genos. The retail strategy was quite revealing the value these shops add is in their long-term relationships. My sales guy knew all about Albert's heart condition and whether Bob had had his knee operation yet etc.

 

Another was on the phone talking some new Genos jockey off the ceiling at some feature or other moving to an unfamiliar location. Old fashioned 'mom and pop' retailing at its best.

[pjd]

Hi --

 

I finally had a chance to play a Genos. I posted comments and audio snippets of the Super Articulation 2 (SArt2) voices in action at:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-snap-review/

 

I plan to use the Genos at my church gig, so the review skews toward emulation of acoustic, orchestral instruments. It does quite a good job at this task. The styles and arranger stuff is for fun and practice -- not needed on the job.

 

Hope the info helps out -- pj

 

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

 

[KorgyPorky]

I wonder if there's an arranger on the horizon from Casio to compete with Genos and PA4X?

 

I'd really be surprised. Casio never offered a lofty-priced, high-end arranger in the past.

 

 

Actually the Casio mzx-500 is one of the most innovative arrangers on the market...

Sadly the sound quallity espescially from the orchestral sounds is very dissapointing..

In yhe end it just sounds like a real casio..

 

 

The most innovative feature on the whole arranger market is from Ketron

In their high end SD9 they have a feature called launchpad.

Thats a crossbreed between an Arranger and Ableton live

And there is more, its supporting both midi as wel as audio(loops)

 

If they ever release a module version of the sd9 pro, i will add it to the Kronos and never look back..

 

 

The most innovative part of the Genos is still the ensemble voices which are unique in all hardware instruments... but that was allready part of the T5. Compared to the current arranger market leader Korg pa4x, the Genos is still aimed to much at home players and misses a lot of the Pa4xs pro features...

[Rick Stirling]

Actually the Casio mzx-500 is one of the most innovative arrangers on the market...

Sadly the sound quallity espescially from the orchestral sounds is very dissapointing..

In yhe end it just sounds like a real casio..

 

 

I'm curious what you base your opinion on. I own the X500 and it holds up well with my Kronos 2 and PA600 in my opinion. When hooked up to a set of decent studio speakers the sound quality is quite good.