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#2885217 - 10/15/17 07:05 PM iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh!
TomKittel Offline
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Both my Kurzweil PC3 and Artis Soundtower Editors don't seem to work with IOS 11. These apps don't even show up in the app store on a IOS 11 device.

As far as I can tell all my other music apps work fine with IOS11. Really hope Soundtower will not abandon the PC3 and Artis apps.

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#2885219 - 10/15/17 07:28 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: TomKittel]
AnotherScott Offline
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Roland's app for the Integra7 is apparently in the same boat.
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#2885223 - 10/15/17 08:35 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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The problem I feel is wether or not these iOS developers are in house or not. If Roland or Kurzweil have an iOS dev or two on payroll - then they had access to developer copies of Apple's tools and were among the first to get their hands on iOS 11 and it's easy enough to tweak graphics, fix bugs and fix what the new OS breaks. Submit the the new version on the app store - boom happy Integra and PC3 owners. But if they aren't doing these iOS apps in house and are contracting their development then this falls on what that agreement was. What circumstances there were regarding maintenance, bug fixes, revisions for OS updates and for how long a period of time they would support the app.
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#2885225 - 10/15/17 08:44 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: ElmerJFudd]
EscapeRocks Offline
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According to Roland's website, the Integra & app has been discontinued.

Roland iOS11
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#2885234 - 10/15/17 10:49 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: EscapeRocks]
fjzingo Offline
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Not that it makes the integra-7 useless, it just shows that synths needs to be self contained and fully functional wrt programmability. This exact thing happened with my korg tr-rack, system updates making the software useless and the synt impossible to program-ok for being a bank of sounds.

I really like the idea of expanding functionality of a product with a fantastic screen like the ipad, but otoh, same softwareshite as always, you update to get a new smiley and loose good functionality with programs you are highly dependent on. For example lack of fully functional outlook at the release of a major upgrade of iOS. Still on iOS 10.3.3 and will not update anytime soon.

Roland must be the worst wrt longterm support of the gear they make. They throw out cool and innovative gear like for example the V-synth, JD-XA, Jupiter 80 and integra, System 1 and now 8. ...and now of course the boutique series. But instead of supporting longterm -next product. Good thing though that they are transparent with what theyre strategy is.


Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
According to Roland's website, the Integra & app has been discontinued.

Roland iOS11





Edited by fjzingo (10/15/17 10:53 PM)
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#2885236 - 10/15/17 11:12 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: fjzingo]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: fjzingo
Not that it makes the integra-7 useless, it just shows that synths needs to be self contained and fully functional wrt programmability.

Right. And in particular, don't rely on iOS. At least on a Mac, if a new OS comes out that renders something you need incompatible, you can revert to the old OS, or boot from an alternate volume that has the old OS. On iOS, you can easily be entirely out of luck. If you so much as need your device serviced, you'll probably get a replacement unit with a new OS, there's essentially no way to keep old stuff accessible.

As for the Integra, luckily, the app was just a nice convenience for some things, hardly necessary. AFAIK, everything can still be done on the unit itself or a Mac/PC based editor. I'd be more concerned about something like the VR-09, where all the synth editing functions are gone if the iPad app ever goes away.
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#2885250 - 10/16/17 04:21 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
Synthoid Online   content
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Roland's app for the Integra7 is apparently in the same boat.


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#2885263 - 10/16/17 06:28 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: Synthoid]
TomKittel Offline
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Got a message from customer support that Soundtower is working on an IOS11 update for both these editors. That's good news. Kurzweil always had a user friendly update policy. Much better than Roland. Their recent VR09 update was a pleasant surprise though.
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#2885280 - 10/16/17 08:07 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: TomKittel]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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That's good news and proper for a software developer... also and added value for choosing Kurzweil. They do develop product lines for the long haul.
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#2885289 - 10/16/17 08:24 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
tfort Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: fjzingo
Not that it makes the integra-7 useless, it just shows that synths needs to be self contained and fully functional wrt programmability.

Right. And in particular, don't rely on iOS. At least on a Mac, if a new OS comes out that renders something you need incompatible, you can revert to the old OS, or boot from an alternate volume that has the old OS. On iOS, you can easily be entirely out of luck. If you so much as need your device serviced, you'll probably get a replacement unit with a new OS, there's essentially no way to keep old stuff accessible.

As for the Integra, luckily, the app was just a nice convenience for some things, hardly necessary. AFAIK, everything can still be done on the unit itself or a Mac/PC based editor. I'd be more concerned about something like the VR-09, where all the synth editing functions are gone if the iPad app ever goes away.


I don't disagree, but I would point out that the transition from 32-bit apps to 64-bit apps has been a long time coming and a similar transition shouldn't be happening for a long time. That is, a current 64-bit app will probably still be working 10 years from now.

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#2885293 - 10/16/17 08:43 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: TomKittel]
TomKittel Offline
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BTW: Did I already tell how much I love the Artis 7? In combination with my PC3X (which never leaves my homestudio) the Artis 7 has become my lightweight workhorse for gigs. I am programming all sounds I need with the PC3 before I transfer them to the Artis 7. Fine-tune them with the Atis Soundtower editor if necessary.

The Artis 7 keybed is the only semi-weighted action I ever found really playable both for AP, EP and synth/organ sounds. Replacing the stiff springs with lighter versions further improved this all-purpose keybed. To me Kurzweil sound quailty is beyond reproach. And the masterkeyboard capabilities of the Artis with it's 24 hardware controllers are still second to none.

I am looking forward to check out the new SP6. It seems to offer the Artis 7 goodness in an appealing light-weight package with weighted keys action. I never played a Medeli action though. Is it any good?
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#2885304 - 10/16/17 09:21 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: tfort]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: tfort
I don't disagree, but I would point out that the transition from 32-bit apps to 64-bit apps has been a long time coming and a similar transition shouldn't be happening for a long time. That is, a current 64-bit app will probably still be working 10 years from now.

While this was the most seismic shift, there have been plenty of instances of apps breaking from one version of iOS to the next, over much smaller OS changes. It doesn't have to be that an app no longer runs... it can be just some particular functionality that is no longer working properly.
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#2885320 - 10/16/17 10:13 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: TomKittel]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: TomKittel
BTW: Did I already tell how much I love the Artis 7?
The Artis 7 keybed is the only semi-weighted action I ever found really playable both for AP, EP and synth/organ sounds. Replacing the stiff springs with lighter versions further improved this all-purpose keybed. To me Kurzweil sound quailty is beyond reproach. And the masterkeyboard capabilities of the Artis with it's 24 hardware controllers are still second to none.

As I alluded to in another thread, I just recently "rediscovered" what a great board the Artis7 is. I had picked up a Roland FA-07 and returned it (despite its wonderful light weight and useful sub out) because, in almost every way, the Artis7 was, to me, a superior board. Though yes, I also replaced the springs.

That's not to say I don't have complaints about the Artis7, I have numerous. ;-) But if I had to do a gig with just a single board, it's probably the best (or second best) reasonably lightweight option out there, for someone who needs to cover a wide range of sounds (including splits, which become more important when you have only one board), and who wants an action that's at least decently playable for both piano and organ, and with at least 7x-keys (anything smaller is really limiting for splits as well as for piano). The only thing I might put ahead of the Artis7 is the Nord Stage 3 (though the Kurz still has some advantages). Beneath those, the Nord Electro 5D-73, Roland VR-730, Kurzweil SP4-7 could also do a pretty good job as a single board, but with significantly more limitations in terms of controls and/or split flexibility. All the other options I can think of I rule out right away either as too heavy or having actions less amenable to playing both piano and organ.

Originally Posted By: TomKittel
I am looking forward to check out the new SP6. It seems to offer the Artis 7 goodness in an appealing light-weight package with weighted keys action. I never played a Medeli action though. Is it any good?

If it's the same action as in their KA90 (which appears to be similar if not identical to the Medeli SP4000), it's okay, not great. I'd say it's something like a Yamaha GHS. Better than some of the TP100 boards I've played (which I admit is a low bar).
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#2885326 - 10/16/17 10:26 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
miden Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
...........That's not to say I don't have complaints about the Artis7, I have numerous. ;-) .........


AS, as I am currently torn between the Fa-07/08 and the Artis 7, woudl you care to expand on that please?

Thanks
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#2885360 - 10/16/17 12:42 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: miden]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: miden
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
...........That's not to say I don't have complaints about the Artis7, I have numerous. ;-) .........


AS, as I am currently torn between the Fa-07/08 and the Artis 7, woudl you care to expand on that please?

Let's see...

I don't like that the black patch select buttons on the right all butt up against each other, you have to aim too carefully.

The small (and often light blue) button legends on the reflective silver surface can be difficult or impossible to read in sub-optimal lighting conditions.

There is a black mask around the perimeter of the display. If the Artis7 is your second tier board, this will make it nearly impossible to read the "soft labels" for the buttons beneath the display unless you lean over the board.

I wish it had a "live" drawbar mode like Nord. While you can use the sliders as drawbars, there's no function (AFAIK) that makes the organ "read" the current position of those sliders. Which also means you can't be manipulating them, switch to another sound, and switch back to where you left off.

When you do a quick split, it smartly defaults to the single most common LH sound, bass. But it leaves you on a screen which only lets you choose a different left-hand sound, you can't "swap" the display and button functions to be relevant to the right hand sound instead. Part way through a song where you're playing LH bass, you're much more likely to need to change he RH sound than the LH sound! Luckily, there are very workable ways around this, but it would be better if you didn't have to.

I like the display that shows you the names of what sounds are currently assigned to the 16 main patch select buttons, but I wish they had provided some way to bring up that display when you're selecting sounds within a split.

The action was not to my taste until I installed the lighter springs.

Even with the ability to load PC3 sounds, there are some sounds where I can't get something I like as much as I have in some other board, but you know, that will always be the case. On my to-do list is sampling some of my favorite other-board sounds into soundfonts and triggering them via the BS-16i app on my iPad. Not every sound could be captured that way, but some could. At least Kurz MIDI functionality should make it easier to integrate those sounds than it might be on some other boards.

I wish it had an assignable out and aftertouch, I wouldn't mind paying more for that. And yeah, I wish it were lighter than its 28 lbs.
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#2885363 - 10/16/17 12:52 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
miden Offline
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Cool, thanks much!

1.The action was not to my taste until I installed the lighter springs.
Too stiff, not good enough for EP/AP? Or not fast enough for organ/synth parts?

Just a general question too if I may...What exactly gets saved to a Program and/or Multi? For example, one can set a patch/CC change to get sent to an external board/PC but does this actually get saved in the Program/Multi so it gets auto-sent when loaded? (couldn't find this in the provided MIDI spec, or manual)
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#2885367 - 10/16/17 01:38 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: miden]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: miden
1.The action was not to my taste until I installed the lighter springs.
Too stiff, not good enough for EP/AP? Or not fast enough for organ/synth parts?

Just more pushback than I'd like. No speed issues. It might have interfered with piano dynamics, I don't really remember. But I think mostly about just liking the way it feels more than ability/inability to play something.
Originally Posted By: miden
Just a general question too if I may...What exactly gets saved to a Program and/or Multi? For example, one can set a patch/CC change to get sent to an external board/PC but does this actually get saved in the Program/Multi so it gets auto-sent when loaded?

MIDI Program Changes are saved in Multis. Up to four of them (since a Multi can have up to four zones).
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#2885369 - 10/16/17 01:46 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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Tom and Scott, did you both use the Syntaur now-discontinued spring sets to lighten up your respective Artises?



Edited by zxcvbnm098 (10/16/17 01:48 PM)

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#2885381 - 10/16/17 02:58 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: zxcvbnm098]
AnotherScott Offline
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Yes.
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#2885411 - 10/16/17 06:34 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
miden Offline
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ahhh, damn. There's that nasty word "discontinued"!

by the by the shop I deal with has a Forte 88 on a special offer to me of $3500 AUD (US 2750) seems like a good deal??
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#2885429 - 10/16/17 09:27 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: miden]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: miden
ahhh, damn. There's that nasty word "discontinued"!

There are also lots of people who are okay with Kurzweil's standard more highly sprung action.

Originally Posted By: miden
aby the by the shop I deal with has a Forte 88 on a special offer to me of $3500 AUD (US 2750) seems like a good deal??

I've never played or even seen a Forte 88. I've only heard good things about it. I jus never considered it because of its travel weight. I have no doubt it's a great board.
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#2885436 - 10/16/17 10:18 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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If the Artis7 plays like a Nord Electro - highly sprung Fatar TP-8O (I believe Kurzweil typically uses either a TP-8 or TP-9 on their synths) then I'm not a fan but would really like test out the difference a spring swap mod makes.

Also need to try out the SP6 if I can find one. Trying to keep an open mind about the action they picked on this one as well.
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#2885446 - 10/17/17 03:10 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: ElmerJFudd]
TomKittel Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
If the Artis7 plays like a Nord Electro - highly sprung Fatar TP-8O (I believe Kurzweil typically uses either a TP-8 or TP-9 on their synths) then I'm not a fan but would really like test out the difference a spring swap mod makes.



I replaced the stiff springs of my Artis 7 with the springs of a Fatar TP-8O which are lighter. This made a huge difference. The keybed feels more sensitive and more precisely controllable. But even without this hack the Artis 7 keybed is far and away superior to the TP-80 for AP and EP sounds. This must have to do with a different velocity implemetation of both keybeds, not just the springs.

I used to own a Nord Stage 2 Compact (Fatar TP-8O) for a while. I found the Stage's AP sounds unplayable with the TP-8O keybed. None of the four velocity curves was remotely satisfying.

But we are getting more and more OT in this thread.... back to topic.


Edited by TomKittel (10/17/17 05:39 AM)
Edit Reason: wording

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#2885461 - 10/17/17 06:30 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: TomKittel]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
If the Artis7 plays like a Nord Electro - highly sprung Fatar TP-8O (I believe Kurzweil typically uses either a TP-8 or TP-9 on their synths) then I'm not a fan

Artis7 and Electros (at least since the 3) have a similar issue of providing too much pushback for my taste, but the two actions still feel pretty different from each other, I would not judge one by the other. (BTW, the letters can also indicate a big difference. The TP-9P in a Numa Compact looks and feels quite different from the TP-9 in a PC361.)

Originally Posted By: TomKittel
I replaced the stiff springs of my Artis 7 with the springs of a Fatar TP-8O

Which TP-8O springs did you use? Different TP-8O boards have different springs. (Some if not all the Nords are more highly sprung than most; Numa Organ 2 and presumably the newer Mojo are more lightly sprung than most.)

It's really interesting to me that that worked at all. Before I got my Syntaur kit (designed for the TP-8 based Kurzweils like the Artis7), I asked them if those springs would work in my Nord Stage 2-73 as well, and they said no. But of course they could have been mistaken.

Originally Posted By: TomKittel
But even without this hack the Artis 7 keybed is far and away superior to the TP-80 for AP and EP sounds. This must have to do with a different velocity implemetation of both keybeds, not just the springs.

The physical shape of the key is different as well, including, I think, its overall length (at least, the visible length is different, when comparing the Artis7 to the NE5D). It's possible that there could be other mechanical differences.

Originally Posted By: TomKittel
I used to own a Nord Stage 2 Compact (Fatar TP-8O) for a while. I found the Stage's AP sounds unplayable with the TP-8O keybed. None of the four velocity curves was remotely satisfying.

I also found the NS2-73 to be a particularly bad action for piano. I was surprised to find that the NE5D was better. Obviously the actions are different by the virtue of the NS2 having aftertouch, but I'm not sure that's the only (or the critical) difference in how they play. There could be other mechanical or software differences. I'll be really curious to try the NS3-73.
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#2885467 - 10/17/17 07:06 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: AnotherScott]
TomKittel Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott


Originally Posted By: TomKittel
I replaced the stiff springs of my Artis 7 with the springs of a Fatar TP-8O

Which TP-8O springs did you use? Different TP-8O boards have different springs.

It's really interesting to me that that worked at all. Before I got my Syntaur kit (designed for the TP-8 based Kurzweils like the Artis7), I asked them if those springs would work in my Nord Stage 2-73 as well, and they said no. But of course they could have been mistaken.



I used the leftover TP-8O springs of my Uhl X3 organ after the X3 was upgraded to the new Uhl Smooth keybed. Fellow KC member Markus (MG) did exactly the same with his Uhl and his Artis 7. He is also very happy with the results.

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#2885487 - 10/17/17 11:03 AM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: TomKittel]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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My plan is try out the springs from a Numa Compact on my Artis.....

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#2885584 - 10/17/17 08:13 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: zxcvbnm098]
burningbusch Offline
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Sad to see the Integra-7 discontinued. Could be end of an era for Roland. XLR and four separate stereo outputs (can be configured in surround), S/PDIF all in a high quality Roland rack.

Busch.

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#2885587 - 10/17/17 08:32 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: burningbusch]
AnotherScott Offline
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I don't think the Integra 7 is discontinued, just its iOS app.
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#2885588 - 10/17/17 08:36 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: burningbusch]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Sad to see the Integra-7 discontinued.


Is that true ?
I donīt see it being discontinued on Roland/categories/discontinued site .

The iOS editor is listed as are JP editors and JP50 & 80 synths, but Integra-7 isnīt.

When I google "integra 7 discontinued" I only find iOS editor being discontinued.

A.C.

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#2885589 - 10/17/17 08:54 PM Re: iPad Kurzweil Editors IOS 11....arghh! [Re: Al Coda]
burningbusch Offline
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OK, good to know. I saw discontinued somewhere and thought it was the rack.

Busch.

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