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#2884666 - 10/12/17 02:48 PM Manitas de Plata
whitefang Offline
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Saw this guy on one of them Ed Sullivan shows(not this clip of course) And was knocked out. Spent the rest of the day wondering what rock I was living under! crazy

And dig that crazy capo......




And Manitas just passed away 3 short years ago...
Whitefang




Edited by whitefang (10/12/17 02:50 PM)
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#2885455 - 10/17/17 04:51 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: whitefang]
whitefang Offline
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No like, eh?
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#2885475 - 10/17/17 08:15 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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A little too fast for my listening pleasure LOL! I know it's part of the genre and the guy is great no doubt, but I would like to hear him play something sweeter for some reason. Kind of like watching Yngwie Malmsteen on a Strat, I appreciate their shredding skills, but I lose interest rather fast... crazy


Edited by Larryz (10/17/17 08:15 AM)
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#2885479 - 10/17/17 09:59 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Larryz]
Danzilla Offline
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A capo?!?!?!? on a classical guitar?!?!?!? Heretic!!!!

But at least he didn't use a pick.

Definitely better than me.
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#2885505 - 10/17/17 12:53 PM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Danzilla]
Winston Psmith Offline
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My Spanish language teacher, a Spaniard himself, introduced me to Manitas de Plata ("Silver fingers"), back around 1970 or so? His style seemed . . . aggressive, to say the least, but he was also a true Gitano, a Gypsy, so one might argue that his style is authentic, at least, capo or no.

I think it's also because we're used to seeing, and hearing, a Spanish or so-called Classical Guitar in a very different way. You don't see many Nylon-string Guitars with tap plates, anymore, not in the U.S. market.

IMHO, Segovia wanted to take the Guitar away from its roots in Gypsy and Flamenco Music, and turn it into an Instrument suited for Chamber Music. His influence was widespread, and persists even now, to a degree. Remember, it was Segovia who called the Amplified Guitar (his phrase) an "abomination". He was not a wild and crazy guy . . .
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#2885525 - 10/17/17 02:49 PM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Winston Psmith]
whitefang Offline
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@Larry---cruise around YouTube if you have the time(I often don't) and you might find him playing something like you're looking for. Can't say for sure though.

@Dan---Capo? Sure looks like one. And a strange one at that. Seems to tighten by a knob type device on the top, and hold onto the neck by the sides. While watching an old episode of the past TV show "Mr. Lucky", there was a flamenco guitarist on there with a guitar employing the same type of capo.

@Winston---Segovia? Hmmm...man was older than I thought! Seeing as to how von Weber and Paganini both composed pieces for the guitar in the 19th and 18th centuries, and assuming it was SEGOVIA who pulled the instrument from it's "gypsy roots", then there either has to be a much earlier Segovia than the one I'm thinking of, or Andre held up REAL well! wink
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#2885536 - 10/17/17 04:00 PM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Wow, Mick Jagger's secret identity (lookit the face under the Bob Dyl wig) is a master flamenco guitarist ?
Who'da thunk ?!
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#2885537 - 10/17/17 04:02 PM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Wow, Mick Jagger's secret identity (lookit the face under the Bob Dyl wig) is a master flamenco guitarist ?
Who'da thunk ?!
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#2885572 - 10/17/17 07:18 PM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
@Larry---cruise around YouTube if you have the time(I often don't) and you might find him playing something like you're looking for. Can't say for sure though.

Whitefang


I cruised through as many as I could handle and found nothing worthwhile...all were fast except when he sang. When he sang it sounded like middle eastern music which did not interest me...not knocking the guy as he is very good at what he does. +1 Danzilla, I'm not a fan of capos so this is a bit abusive for me too LOL! cool
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#2885601 - 10/18/17 02:02 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Larryz]
The Geoff Offline
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Capo in Flamenco is a necessary tool as the style has a lot of dependence on the size & stretch of the player's hand. The capo is set to the fret which allows the player most comfort while playing and has little or nothing to do with the actual pitch of playing.

G.


Edited by The Geoff (10/18/17 02:02 AM)
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#2885606 - 10/18/17 04:02 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: The Geoff]
whitefang Offline
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Capos have their place sometimes. Depends on the sound you want, or in one case, I know a guy who tunes down two steps from standard and uses a capo to get back up to it because a rotator cuff problem won't allow his arm to stretch out that far and merely moving the guitar over doesn't work for him either.

But anyway, my focus wasn't on the fact he used a capo, but the capo he was using. wink
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#2885678 - 10/18/17 08:30 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I know little or nothing about Flamenco other than those that play it are exceptional guitar players. I see as many using capos as not, so it's probably a personal preference. I had no idea that it depended on the size and stretch of the person's fretting hand. I wonder why they just don't make custom shorter scale guitars for flamenco? I know Taylor makes a 12 fret guitar and wonder if it would work well for flamenco? The Capo is a great tool for many genres and even though I never use one, I appreciate the sounds one can get by using them. cool
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#2885689 - 10/18/17 08:50 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Larryz]
CEB Offline
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Cejila (capo) is used in classical some. It is used in Flamenco A lot!.

The main reason in flamenco is because of the Andalusian cadence. This is the equivalent of I, IV, V chord progression in Blues/Country Rock etc... Similar to the chord progression in Neil Young's Hurricane or Del Shannon's Runaway (Am G F E ) but Flamenco uses passing tones and chords that maximize tension. The F in flamenco before the E has open high E and B strings on the bottom transitioning to the E. The grand barre chord don't work when you don't play songs starting in 5th position. grin

There are other reasons also having to do with the tone of the strings grazing the frets. For tonal reasons the action is way lower on a flamenco guitar as opposed to classical.

Frankly I use a modern style Kyser capo. Purist I'm sure poo poo it as opposed to the traditional leather strap and wooden cejila.


Edited by CEB (10/18/17 08:52 AM)
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#2885697 - 10/18/17 09:00 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Winston Psmith]
CEB Offline
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Originally Posted By: Winston Psmith
My Spanish language teacher, a Spaniard himself, introduced me to Manitas de Plata ("Silver fingers"), back around 1970 or so? His style seemed . . . aggressive, to say the least, but he was also a true Gitano, a Gypsy, so one might argue that his style is authentic, at least, capo or no.

I think it's also because we're used to seeing, and hearing, a Spanish or so-called Classical Guitar in a very different way. You don't see many Nylon-string Guitars with tap plates, anymore, not in the U.S. market.

IMHO, Segovia wanted to take the Guitar away from its roots in Gypsy and Flamenco Music, and turn it into an Instrument suited for Chamber Music. His influence was widespread, and persists even now, to a degree. Remember, it was Segovia who called the Amplified Guitar (his phrase) an "abomination". He was not a wild and crazy guy . . .


I gig with a Flamenco guitar in the Country band. It has clear golpeador. From any distance you can't see the clear tap plates. Most guitars has gone to the clear plates. The old plates were fugly.

I like my flamenco (Cordoba Gypsy Kings model) better than my classicals for gigging. It is brighter and cuts better. Plus it looks cool and has nice electronics.
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#2885703 - 10/18/17 09:06 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: CEB]
CEB Offline
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The acoustic has tap plates





Edited by CEB (10/18/17 09:27 AM)
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#2885717 - 10/18/17 10:14 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: whitefang]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
@Winston---Segovia? Hmmm...man was older than I thought! Seeing as to how von Weber and Paganini both composed pieces for the guitar in the 19th and 18th centuries, and assuming it was SEGOVIA who pulled the instrument from it's "gypsy roots", then there either has to be a much earlier Segovia than the one I'm thinking of, or Andre held up REAL well! wink
Whitefang


@Whitefang - Not arguing your very pertinent point regarding the composers and their compositions, but the idea of Classical Guitar is largely Segovia's invention. Segovia's mission, in his own words: " the first to redeem the guitar from the folklore; second, to go to every part of the civilized world to show that the guitar is worthwhile to be on the concert stage; the third to create a very good repertoire for it; and the fourth, to influence the authorities of conservatories and musical academies and universities to teach guitar properly."

The critical phrase, IMHO, is "to redeem the Guitar from the folklore." That phrase almost suggests that he found the Guitar lounging in a house of ill repute. However, the rest of his mission statement is no less clear. His intent was to change the way in which the Guitar was heard, viewed, and presented.

@CEB - good point about the modern tap plates being clear. Even so, there was only one Guitar shop in the D.C. area that regularly carried them, and that store almost exclusively served Flamenco musicians.


Edited by Winston Psmith (10/18/17 10:22 AM)
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#2885766 - 10/18/17 02:40 PM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Winston Psmith]
whitefang Offline
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The phrase in no way suggests to me he possibly found one in some whorehouse. But I get what he means. There were probably few to no guitar recitals in concert halls or other conservatory venues for quite some time. And it's increased use in jazz and other forms probably spurred him to show that much more could be done with it besides being strummed by cowboys and bluesmen in juke joints. I mean, how many old rock'n'roll "heroes" do you suppose heard from their parents, "Forget wasting time with that git-box kid. You'll NEVER make any kind of living with it."?
Whitefang
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#2885814 - 10/19/17 04:06 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: The Geoff]
Eric Iverson Offline
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Yes, capos are normal in flamenco. Manitas was not a classical player, and from what I've read, flamenco and classical guitars are often built differently.
I've been aware of Manitas de Plata for many years - I was a fan of flamenco as a kid - mostly 'cause the guys played FAST, I think. LOL
I still enjoy the style sometimes - certain things by Paco de Lucia and Paco Pena I LOVE, in fact. But it tends to be the same chord progressions over and over; I couldn't listen to flamenco all day, and it's hard for me to enjoy the SINGING.

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#2885818 - 10/19/17 04:31 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Eric Iverson]
whitefang Offline
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Try the DANCING! grin
Whitefang
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#2885842 - 10/19/17 06:10 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: whitefang]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
The phrase in no way suggests to me he possibly found one in some whorehouse. But I get what he means.
Whitefang


Just kidding, of course, but the tone of his remark still bothers me. I don't doubt there were Guitars lying about in Spanish bordellos, but to get back on point . . .

Yes, Segovia's goal was to elevate the Guitar, from a Folk Instrument to something more, but on his terms. I think many of us in here can respect that, but I also feel that his perception of the Guitar was severely limited in scope. By trying to take the Gypsy out of the Guitar, so to speak, he was trying to tame a naturally wild spirit. Conversely, many Rock, Jazz and Blues Guitarists found that wildness, and set it loose once more.

Alright, when I start sounding like this, it's time for more coffee . . .


Edited by Winston Psmith (10/19/17 06:25 AM)
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#2885860 - 10/19/17 07:17 AM Re: Manitas de Plata [Re: Winston Psmith]
CEB Offline
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I was in a Flamenco master class in the 80s with an American guitarist who studied in Spain and was also a student of Montoya. It was an afternoon class as was the norm. We were all classical guitar students of Dr. Whermann. That evening he was playing a concert. He remarked about how it was odd that people would come all dressed up for a classical style concert event. Back in Spain he said this was drinking and dancing music. He always made the invention to American audiences to come up and dance and play along. Every once in a while there would be someone there with a background in real Flamenco would take him up on it and there would be castanets and dancing. Sometimes people would be taken aback expecting something akin to Julian Bream or Segovia.


Edited by CEB (10/19/17 07:20 AM)
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