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#2884541 - 10/11/17 09:26 PM Are you complacent with your gear?
The Zombie MC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 4619
Loc: Secluded Tranquil NY Wine Coun...
I know I am... my acquisition has slowed way down, and there hasn't been any new gear in the last five years that has induced GAS. I have a lot of old gear from 1970s/80s/90s, and I have not found any compelling reason to replace them.

Not that there isn't anything good being made these days - I just don't NEED any more stuff. Keyboards, effects, amps, speakers, accessories... got everything I could want.

It's great to see the renaissance in modulars these days, but I started out with a PAiA modular back in 1981 and am not anxious to get back into modulars.

Another reason... I'm tired of reading manuals to learn new keyboards. There's no avoiding it as desktop or laptop computers advance, but I made a conscious decision years ago to minimize learning curves and/or choose interfaces that are intuitive.

Weight doesn't concern me as it does other players. Hammond players are always trying to lighten their tonewheels or clonewheels so I can understand their need.

Who else is complacent?

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KC Island
#2884545 - 10/11/17 09:35 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: The Zombie MC]
count doerflera Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 6260
Loc: thin ice
I'm always looking for better speakers/amplification but for now I am not in the market for any keyboards or VSTi's or guitars or effects pedals/racks. If I had the gear I have today 30 years ago, no telling where I would be now. (Probably on the corner with a cardboard sign.) grin
_________________________
I need to practice more than I do, and that will make my current gear - first rate, by any measure - sound even better than it already does.
Tim Wat

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#2884546 - 10/11/17 09:38 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: The Zombie MC]
OB Grave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 904
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Complacent? No, not complacent. But I am currently in a place of contentment. I think I am as happy with my gig rig as I've ever been (Stage 2, Mojo 61, my lil pancake Leslie, K10s). I gig with it at least weekly and it does everything I want it to do. It's the best sounding rig I've ever had, and set up is the easiest it's ever been for me with a two keyboard setup. So yes, I'm content.

But..... I am working on one thing though: I would like to be able to drop the Stage 2 for some gigs, but unfortunately the Mojo doesn't have any signal routing. A couple days ago I sent off for PCB fabrication a little circuit that will route the Mojo's output to one of two sets of output jacks, depending on what program was most recently selected. So I can send organ to to the Leslie and everything else to the K10s and have the signal switching be automatic.

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#2884553 - 10/12/17 12:10 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: OB Grave]
GRollins Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 203
Complacent? Content?

I'd better be...I've spent far more on keyboards this year than I could possibly have foreseen back on January 1st. But a Hammond A-100 came up for sale at an impossibly low price, then a Kronos at a very good (not impossible, but really good) price, and I thought surely I was done. Not so. Contracted a case of GAS and got a Motif rack unit for an average price. All told, more than I had any business spending on keyboards--not even my primary instrument. So I need to slow down. A lot. I'm retired and can't continue this rate of acquisition, no matter how much my inner Rick Wakeman might wish to do so.

Are there things that might tempt me?

Yeah, I guess. I've got a Moog Little Phatty, but it's a two oscillator jobby...if somehow a Voyager drifted by at a stupidly low price I might get revved up. Three oscillators would be pretty cool. A big Yamaha? Honestly, I don't know. The Motif rack unit is an XS, so theoretically I've got the guts of a two-generation-back Yamaha, plus the somewhat idiosyncratic selection of voices in my MM8. I don't know that an XF or Montage would add all that much to my tonal palette at this time. Nords and Rolands? I don't know that I'm all that attracted to either. So...barring some wildcard thing popping up really cheap and warping my judgement, I guess I really am fairly satisfied at the moment.

You know what I really want? Time. I need to practice, so as to be able to play the things I hear in my head. If, somehow, I could get some time, I'd be pretty happy about that acquisition. Sadly, things seem to be running the other way. Twelve hours ago I learned that I'm going to need to spend more time on some things that I hadn't planned on, so I don't know where/when I'll find the time to practice, but that's life.

Phooey.

At least practice/play time is cheap--less expensive than time spent buying, at any rate.

Grey
_________________________
I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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#2884560 - 10/12/17 03:40 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
stoken6 Online   content
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 1502
I wouldn't say I'm "complacent" but I'm certainly content with my NS2SW, downstairs hammer 88 and IEMs.

I'm looking for a lower-tier weighted-7x controller for not too much $// but that's for convenience, not playing pleasure.

Cheers, Mike.
_________________________
AX48.PM351.FC7.VFP2
One or two keyboards.

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#2884561 - 10/12/17 03:48 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: The Zombie MC]
Synthoid Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9595
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Content here. Haven't purchased any new gear in 4+ years. I still visit music stores from time to time, but haven't been very excited about anything.

The only new toy that grabbed my attention recently is the Roland D-05. I might get one when I receive one of those 20% discount coupons from GC.
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To stop the flow of music would be like the stopping of time itself, incredible and inconceivable.
-- Aaron Copland

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#2884566 - 10/12/17 04:21 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Synthoid]
Frightful Mike Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 2692
Not complacent, but temporary satisfied. I have more than I need at this point, and have refined my gear to a useful, logical point. Spent some time selling and buying and have things in a pretty good state. I have occasion to be in music stores where nothing really gets me too excited. Lots of cool stuff, but I just don't really need anything, nor can I justify it. I am in the process of servicing the vintage gear.
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#2884571 - 10/12/17 05:08 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Frightful Mike]
SkiGuy777 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/17
Posts: 164
Loc: Plantation FL
Weekend Warrior. Same gear for 20 years. Hammond XK2 and a Korg 01W/FD. It has all the sounds I need. I never upgraded because I programmed some combis with splits and layers for cover songs and didn't want to program them again. The Trinity and Triton didn't blow me away, they seemed like minor upgrades. I played one in a band room for rehearsals and didn't have GAS for it, so I stayed with my 01W.

The Kronos? That would be nice but I don't need it. I play an 88 key version at rehearsal along with a Hammond XK5. The setup is nice, but it's big, takes 2 people to move.

The latest purchase I made was buying a Neo Vent2 for the XK2, and that was worth it. Here's the rig on a gig.
http://www.quatraine3.com/tw2017/SolidBrass0214171mp001.jpg
http://www.quatraine3.com/tw2017/SolidBrass0214171mp002.jpg

And this is what I play at the rehearsal room, the band leader owns it. He plays bass but can also play keys.
http://www.quatraine3.com/tw2017/RehearsalRoom032317l1mp018.jpg
_________________________
Korg 01W/FD, Hammond XK-2, Neo Ventilator2, JBL Eon, Rhodes 88

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#2884573 - 10/12/17 05:12 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Frightful Mike]
DanL Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 3968
Loc: DE
I tend to upgrade gear every few years. Right now I'm content with my FA08, Electro 5d, and Nord Lead A1 in my gig rig. I got the E5 last Nov and the A1 in Jan 2016. I've had the FA since March of 2014.

The FA08 will be the next thing replaced but I'm not sure what will replace it. Probably a Kronos or some other workstation that I can trigger 1 shot samples with from a button/pad.

My wife has placed a "divorce moratorium" on any new purchases for the time being. We're having a master suite addition put on our house and don't really need the expense of a new keyboard right now.
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Live: Roland FA-08, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1
Toys: Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6
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#2884575 - 10/12/17 05:22 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: SkiGuy777]
Phoney R Wakeman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 4861
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
such a subjective and quirky topic but worthwhile to check the pulse here since there is a large variety of usage.

I am a song writer so its essential to preserve my portfolio/format of songs. My + 6 year Kronos is an excellent song writing partner. However, I am concerned about longevity of the hardware and the Song format. Not that I have any inside Korg knowledge. I plan for eventual replacement.

My other platform is MainStage/MBP/Omnisphere. In experimental mode as the variety and quality is excellent.

Other than a widget here or there, I see little need to make changes/additions.

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#2884576 - 10/12/17 05:28 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: DanL]
DarkyLord Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: DanL


My wife has placed a "divorce moratorium" on any new purchases for the time being. We're having a master suite addition put on our house and don't really need the expense of a new keyboard right now.


I don't see the problem idk
(nsfw)


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#2884578 - 10/12/17 05:46 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Phoney R Wakeman]
Al Quinn Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/13/14
Posts: 865
Loc: Center Moriches, NY
I'm not complacent, but I am satisfied. It's only in the past couple of years that I've been able to say this about my portable gear. After decades of being unsatisfied I now actually look forward to playing my portable gear. It used to distract me from playing music and now it inspires me. There are really good times for portable keyboard gear and amplification!

Big thanks to the KC forum members for repeatedly helping me find great gear smile The knowledge, experience, and talent on this forum is amazing!
_________________________
https://soundcloud.com/al-quinn-2

Yamaha C3, '62 A100, Leslie 145, CP4, Mojo, HX3 Module, Vent 2, Electro 4D, AX Synth, SSv3, Markbass CMD 121P, Chopped Leslie 145, RCF TT08As

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#2884579 - 10/12/17 05:53 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Al Quinn]
Outkaster Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 5766
Loc: Rochester, NY
Not complacent but satisfied sometimes. I don't know all of these keyboards are the same to me. I used to flip a lot of gear and try not to get attached to it. The last thing I felt connected to was the Hammond XK-3C which didn't get any love on this forum but I still really liked that thing until I had to sell it to a church down south after sand got in the motherboard at a gig. Nothing really excites me anymore though. Unearthing an old Leslie or finding one hidden away somewhere is much more interesting.
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"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"


noblevibes.com


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#2884583 - 10/12/17 06:10 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Outkaster]
Phreakay Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2630
Loc: Australia
More than satisfied, with all the MainStage and other VI's I have collected, and mostly use, there isn't anything in the way of sounds that I feel deprived of, or for that matter that there is something out there that sounds significantly better than what I have.

Plus for me this forum is a gas killer, rare to read a favourble comment on any controller so don't have any lust to upgrade.
_________________________
MainStage | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P
"He helped me onto the bottom rung as a musician, from which, I might add, I never ascended" Glyn Johns - Sound Man

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#2884584 - 10/12/17 06:17 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Synthoid]
AnotherScott Offline
10k Club

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11109
If I didn't gig, I could be content with what I've got. (Maybe I'd add a two-manual clonewheel, or get my old real thing working again.) But it's trying to get all that sound and functionality into something super portable that keeps tripping me up, keeping me hoping that better options will appear.

If I were willing to gig with 5 boards, I could have everything I want at a gig, but I can't get everything I want in 2 or even 3, at least within my weight limit. I could probably reasonably get it down to three if I added a laptop, though. That would take sounds out of the equation, and I could choose the boards based only on the non-sonic qualities (i.e. action, ergonomics, travel weight). Even then, I couldn't yet get it down to two.

My next purchase will likely be replacing my Nord Electro 5D with a Stage 3-73. In theory, if I added a laptop, I might finally be able to get what I want out of two boards. As it is, sounds aside, with a weighted 88 on bottom, there is no second "organ and synth" board that will give me drawbars and aftertouch, so I have ergonomic/functional limitations right off the bat, which is why even with a laptop, I'd currently need three boards, just to play everything with the right "feel" (which includes drawbar manipulation for organ and aftertouch for synth). Before the NS3-73, the only possibility for this would have been the old Roland VR-760, but it's too heavy. (But will the NS3 be perfect? No... Nord's SW actions are more highly sprung than I'd prefer, and the NS3 has only 5 direct patch select buttons.) Of course, the idea of buying a $3700 NS3-73 merely as a controller is a bit of overkill. A Numa Organ 2 and a Samson Graphite 49 would get you nice feeling drawbar and aftertouch boards for under $1300. That's a huge premium just to be able to set up 2 boards instead of 3. But as I said, this was "in theory" and I'm still not up for the laptop-only approach, and I will actually use the sounds in the Nord.

This year, I did a number of gigs with 3 boards, and even then, I didn't have aftertouch. I could have selected a different three that would have given me aftertouch in the rig, but it would have meant having a less desirable action on my 88. Always trade-offs. Which is why I'm never content.

OTOH...

Originally Posted By: SkiGuy777
Weekend Warrior. Same gear for 20 years.

Early this century, my typical gig rig was a Casio PX500L and a Yamaha S30, and the fact is, I could really still do most of my gigs just fine on that combination. In fact, the two still have some of my favorite actions.
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Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2884597 - 10/12/17 07:39 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
Rusty Mike Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/05/10
Posts: 733
Loc: Central NJ
I have reached a temporary point of parity. Most of the music I play is piano centric, and I have plenty of high quality gear. I've been more focused lately on just learning how to play piano better, and new gear isn't going to help that any.

The exception to this is my jazz fusion band. I'm always thinking about how to get a better setup to accommodate the different sounds I need: AP, EP, organ and lead synth. I bought the Stage 2EX for a single keyboard solution, since a lot of what we do requires fast setup and tear down. I did recently add a Minifooger MF Drive pedal to fatten up the lead sounds, as the Stage's synth voice a tad thin.

But . . . It's really an exercise in diminishing returns. The fusion band doesn't play enough to warrant any significant investment. As a result, I find satisfaction in optimizing what I have. And, as someone above said, I'm too old and tired to learn a new UI or programming paradigm.

I used to do a lot of synth programming in the 80's, and the new affordable synths all look like they'd be fun to own. But it would only consume the spare time I already don't have, and I really have no place to use them outside of my home. I would prefer to use that time practicing and building up my piano repertoire.

I also feel like I haven't scratched the surface of the stuff I do own.

All that being said, I am tempted to trade my current K8's up for a pair of K8.2's, damn you Chuck! laugh
_________________________
Mike from Central NJ
Tools: Ten fingers, two feet, middle-age brain, questionable judgement and taste
Toys: More gear than I could afford when I had talent and did this for a living

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#2884605 - 10/12/17 08:06 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: DarkyLord]
DanL Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 3968
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: DanL


My wife has placed a "divorce moratorium" on any new purchases for the time being. We're having a master suite addition put on our house and don't really need the expense of a new keyboard right now.


I don't see the problem idk
(nsfw)




lol! smile
_________________________
Live: Roland FA-08, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1
Toys: Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6
www.bksband.com
www.echoesrocks.com

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#2884606 - 10/12/17 08:09 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
alien_evil Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3682
Loc: Westville, IN
Very happy with my home studio gear. I did a necessary Mac upgrade over the past year, plus MIDI and audio interfaces. I went to computer-based mixing, which freed up some space and eliminated a lot of cabling. So between that and a handful of keyboards/modules that rarely go out, I'm good for a long time.

Live, I'm quite satisfied - strangely enough. The RD-2000 and Hammond SK-1 73 cover a lot of territory. Though I hope Roland makes their next Axial RD release a vintage synth set (vs yet another block of niche, digital pianos HeadPop ; three is more than enough, thank you..). I'd rather not have to deal with a third keyboard, or module, to cover that ground.
_________________________
"Someday, we will look back on these days and laugh. It may be a maniacal laugh from within the confines of our padded cells, but it will be a laugh nonetheless" - Mr. Boffo.








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#2884608 - 10/12/17 08:16 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: alien_evil]
Sam Mullins Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 1292
Loc: Iowa City, Iowa
I'm pretty happy. Just upgraded my amp (SpaceStation) and FOH (QSC K 10.2). I'm in a mode where I don't really feel like reprogramming a lot of stuff or learning an entirely new instrument. So at this point I would probably only consider:

- upgrading Stage 2 to Stage 3 (only if they re-implement the MIDI per part feature).

- upgrading Kronos 2 to mythical Kronos 3 (if it maintained backward compatability with all my sounds.)

and neither of these possibilities has me on the edge of my seat.
_________________________
Nord Stage 2 HA88, Korg Kronos 2 61, DSI Prophet 08 Module, Moog Sub 37, Yamaha U1 Upright
www.stickmanor.com
There's a thin white line between fear and fury - Stickman

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#2884609 - 10/12/17 08:20 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
Sam Mullins Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 1292
Loc: Iowa City, Iowa
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

My next purchase will likely be replacing my Nord Electro 5D with a Stage 3-73. In theory, if I added a laptop, I might finally be able to get what I want out of two boards. As it is, sounds aside, with a weighted 88 on bottom, there is no second "organ and synth" board that will give me drawbars and aftertouch,


Kronos 61 is close, no? Not real drawbars so I suppose it depends on how crucial that is.
_________________________
Nord Stage 2 HA88, Korg Kronos 2 61, DSI Prophet 08 Module, Moog Sub 37, Yamaha U1 Upright
www.stickmanor.com
There's a thin white line between fear and fury - Stickman

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#2884620 - 10/12/17 09:02 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Sam Mullins]
Bob L Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/14/11
Posts: 412
For the pros on the forum, I would imagine that there is more incentive to upgrade and optimize your rig. Since this is a hobby for me, I try to limit my spend, and get the most out of what I have. A year or so ago I bought a Lester K pedal and that brought new life to my 80s era Korg CX3. My Px-5S has so much capability it is crazy. In the context of a quartet, I feel like much of the nuance I might get out of more expensive gear might get lost in the mix, and the APs,EPs, and other sounds of the PX-5S do a great job. I also hate lugging a lot of stuff. My only concern is that if I were at a gig far from home and the PX-5S stopped working, it would be tough to get through the rest of the gig with an old analog clonewheel. So the Roland VR-09 has been on my list of potential purchases as it would give me an automatic contingency plan (for a gig close to home, I could have a family member bring me my old Casio PX3...). Maybe if the band started generating more $$$s, I could justify spending more.
_________________________
Korg CX-3 (vintage), Casio Privia PX-5S, Lester K, Behringer Powerplay P2, Shure 215s
http://www.hackjammers.com

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#2884621 - 10/12/17 09:08 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Sam Mullins]
AnotherScott Offline
10k Club

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11109
Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
sounds aside, with a weighted 88 on bottom, there is no second "organ and synth" board that will give me drawbars and aftertouch,

Kronos 61 is close, no? Not real drawbars so I suppose it depends on how crucial that is.

Yeah, Kronos is close. Compromise on the real drawbars, and being just a bit on the heavy side, and having only 61 keys. (On a 2-board rig, I prefer 7x on the non-piano board for splits and LH bass.) Similarly, Kurz has the PC3K/A, but again a bit heavy, especially the 76 (up in VR-760 territory).

BUT... I just discovered that our friend OB Dave makes caps that give these boards "drawbars"!



http://www.oceanbeachdigital.com/store/store.html#sp73
_________________________
Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2884626 - 10/12/17 09:32 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
Sam Mullins Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 1292
Loc: Iowa City, Iowa
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

BUT... I just discovered that our friend OB Dave makes caps that give these boards "drawbars"!



http://www.oceanbeachdigital.com/store/store.html#sp73



Yeah, I was going to bring that up. I don't have them because I typically use my Stage organ played from the Kronos keyboard and I'm not too active on the drawbars anyway. (I'm in a duo situation and typically playing other parts at the same time as organ).

I have to say that the longer I have the Kronos, the more I appreciate the Swiss-army-knife aspect of it. There simply hasn't been something I need to cover that it has fallen short on.

I had my Stage 2 before I had a Kronos. But frankly if I was starting over with my live setup up, I think I could accomplish everything with the Kronos and whatever DP I liked best (probably CP4). I barely use the Stage synth, and the Kronos organ would be good enough for my purposes.


Edited by Sam Mullins (10/12/17 09:34 AM)
_________________________
Nord Stage 2 HA88, Korg Kronos 2 61, DSI Prophet 08 Module, Moog Sub 37, Yamaha U1 Upright
www.stickmanor.com
There's a thin white line between fear and fury - Stickman

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#2884629 - 10/12/17 09:56 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Sam Mullins]
dsetto Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/28/15
Posts: 511
Loc: Los Angeles
I fine-tuned my understanding of "complacent" before responding.

Zombie MC, this is good. I try to be there now, today, even with my remaining aspirations.

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#2884643 - 10/12/17 11:01 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Sam Mullins]
AnotherScott Offline
10k Club

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11109
Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
I had my Stage 2 before I had a Kronos. But frankly if I was starting over with my live setup up, I think I could accomplish everything with the Kronos and whatever DP I liked best (probably CP4). I barely use the Stage synth, and the Kronos organ would be good enough for my purposes.

Yeah, Kronos organ is fine, esp if you send it out the assignable out into a Vent. Nord used to have more of a "split on the fly" advantage for quickly calling up different sounds on different parts of the keyboard, but the latest Kronos software update added some nice functionality there. Nord still does some stuff more easily (loading custom samples, and all the effects and other manipulations you can do so quickly with the dedicated instantly-available controls), and I still happen to prefer the Nord piano sounds, but... yeah, the Kronos is a killer board, and there's a lot more that it can do that the Nord can't than vice versa. Too bad there's no 73-key SW Kronos that weighs under 30 lbs. If they could make such a thing, I think they'd have no problem selling it at the same premium price as the NS3-73. (Though I'd still hope they could come up with a better way of dealing with loading custom samples!)
_________________________
Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2884644 - 10/12/17 11:07 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
jeffinpghpa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 338
Loc: Charlotte, NC
I've been on a bit of a tear this year and completely replaced all of my keyboards. Sold a Nord Stage 2 HA-76, Nord Stage Compact Classic and a Nord Electro 5D73.... Bought all new keyboards this year -- Kurzweil Forte 7, Viscount Legend Live and Roland FA-07, and several iPad apps. Everything for me feels like an upgrade and a step forward in the sounds, the user experiences, the vibe, the flexibility.

One thing is for certain, I will probably move on to the next thing somewhere in the future. I'm never done.
_________________________
Yamaha U1 Upright, Kurzweil Forte 7, Viscount Legend Live, Roland FA-07, Pair of QSC K10 Speakers, Allen & Heath Zed 10 Mixer

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#2884647 - 10/12/17 11:29 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
DarkyLord Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

BUT... I just discovered that our friend OB Dave makes caps that give these boards "drawbars"!



http://www.oceanbeachdigital.com/store/store.html#sp73



BRILLIANT!
like

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#2884649 - 10/12/17 12:04 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: jeffinpghpa]
clawback Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 3229
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: jeffinpghpa
I've been on a bit of a tear this year and completely replaced all of my keyboards. Sold a Nord Stage 2 HA-76, Nord Stage Compact Classic and a Nord Electro 5D73.... Bought all new keyboards this year -- Kurzweil Forte 7, Viscount Legend Live and Roland FA-07, and several iPad apps. Everything for me feels like an upgrade and a step forward in the sounds, the user experiences, the vibe, the flexibility.

One thing is for certain, I will probably move on to the next thing somewhere in the future. I'm never done.


I've dropped a few things this year also a bit of a change in direction. Sold my NS2, CP4, RD64, Ventilator.

I have just recently had my Kawai KG2 regulated & voiced, and will keep my Mojo61 for the forseeable future, but my main keyboard focus will be on Vi's. SL88 + accessories ordered, MacbookPro upgraded; it's gonna be a brave new world and I'm excited for the learning curve.

Keeps ya young.



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#2884652 - 10/12/17 12:21 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
stoken6 Online   content
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 1502
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
(But will the NS3 be perfect? No... Nord's SW actions are more highly sprung than I'd prefer, and the NS3 has only 5 direct patch select buttons.)


Not much you can do about the action, but have you considered an external patch selector? Do it from your lower board, or run an app on a phone/tablet, or a Genovation (like Wix, we learn!), or a Sipario etc.

Cheers, Mike.
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#2884654 - 10/12/17 12:30 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: stoken6]
cphollis Offline
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I've been with current main boards for several years now (various Nord gen 2 models) and, while occasionally GAS has tempted, I've held off until something *significantly* better comes along.

Other than that DeepMind 12 splurge I did, which was all about having fun. More memory for AP pianos would be nice, but not nice enough. And if I can hold out for a year or so, I'll get twice as much for my money.

For the weekend warrior bar band stuff I do, I usually sound as good or better than most of the other keyboard dudes out there, so why invest? It's not like anyone is going to notice -- in the band, or in the audience. And I only rarely record.

That being said, many of you know I've been on a tear regarding amplification this year with several new purchases.

That too is losing steam, as my stage sound is now almost always amazing and I have an array of flexible tools that cover everything from intimate combos to no-holds-barred loud outdoor festivals.

Complacent? Yup. Now if I could find a way to organize all these darn cables ...
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#2884655 - 10/12/17 12:41 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: The Zombie MC]
johnchop Offline
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Registered: 10/29/09
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Not gigging at the moment and am likely done. I want to play what I want to hear, and not much of what I like to hear falls in the "crowd-pleaser" category. idk Just trying to maximum fun factor given limited free time.

That said, I'm all software now except for a Little Phatty. (Trying to sell off my PC3 at what I think is a reasonable price, but no one local is buying.) Everything I've got right now aligns with my ambitions, but I'll usually spring for a version upgrade or new soft synth when there's a sale on AND if it sounds good.

Next major hardware purchase will likely be a PC for hosting soft synths, as I'm kicking the Receptor to the curb. Not sexy at all, but it will solve some CPU headroom issues.

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#2884657 - 10/12/17 12:52 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: stoken6]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: stoken6
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
(But will the NS3 be perfect? No... Nord's SW actions are more highly sprung than I'd prefer, and the NS3 has only 5 direct patch select buttons.)


Not much you can do about the action, but have you considered an external patch selector? Do it from your lower board, or run an app on a phone/tablet, or a Genovation (like Wix, we learn!), or a Sipario etc.

Yes, if I get the NS3, I'll probably set up something on the iPad for patch selection. As for action, I might have an answer, we'll see...
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#2884662 - 10/12/17 02:33 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
Marzzz Offline
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Always looking for a good analog poly; had a Mutable Instruments Ambika (didn't love the interface, but probably shouldn't have sold it), a Futuresonus Parva (too long in development, still some bugs, background noise- I am pretty much over Kickstarter), a DSI OB-6 (loved it, but sold it to get the module; now holding off because of cost); I am taking a look at the Novation Peak (but need to really try it out first) and I am intrigued by the Deckard's Dream (which I think sounds good, though not exactly like a CS-80; also need to hear/play a completed unit). Not interested in any of the Behringer stuff right now....

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#2884671 - 10/12/17 03:21 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Marzzz]
David Emm Offline
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There is complacency and then there are simple moments of completion. I could not synthesize a realistic Mellotron from only a stack of synth WAVs, hence M-Tron. My growing enjoyment of guitar lines led me to Strum. I have a meaningful mass of Logic EXS24 and ES2 patches, but the latter began to sound too "clean" in some small way. I felt the need for a different monosynth, but I didn't really seek a Moog signature. I settled on the Korg Legacy MonoPoly, which is a well-appointed upgrade of the hardware version. It adds two effects units in series (you can set 4-tap delay positions across a sound field graphic), 128-voice polyphony and outstanding presets, including a few by some guy named Francis. There are plenty of A-list patches to build on, including many with very 'analog' grit. Early on, I found myself reaching up and grabbing the right knobs as if I was back at my old MiniMoog. The configuration is classically Right. I was leaning towards the Minimonsta for a while, but this synth wears more of the hats I was looking for.

After you reach a certain point, each additional synth you take on diminishes the use you get from the others. I've sought to maintain a certain focused diversity across my stack. I bought the Wavestation in January, so by adding the MonoPoly, my library fairly runneth over. Unless I get an itch for something additive, I'm well-covered. This time *next* year, I'll revisit that Omnisphere fantasy and see if I've built my thighs up enough to bench press it, he claimed. blah
So no, I'm too busy being jazzed to be complacent. That's First World BS, sonny! hitt
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#2884675 - 10/12/17 04:34 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: David Emm]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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I am always on the prowl for the thing that will be so great to play and own. It has to sound great, feel great/play great, be easy to use but feature-full enough that I don't need a third board. I'll bring two, but I'm never carting three. It's also best if I can hall it myself in a gig bag, or at most one with a pair of wheels and handle.

Anything else for me are acoustic / electro mechanical and staying home. Or sound toys.

Believe me, I'd love to have a the flexibility in finances for sound toys, but it's a once every 4-10 years kind of thing and under $2k is a ceiling as instituted by the Captain and I can't argue with logical thought. Call it the Vulcan in me. This is probably also why Roland, Korg Yamaha etc. have been so active in the low end lately.

Someday I'll pull a Dave Ferris and trade in my Chickering for a Steinway. But that will probably be a retirement present rather than a lusty car.
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#2884676 - 10/12/17 04:44 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
I'll bring two, but I'm never carting three.

Well your Yamaha S90ES/Roland VR-700 combo is pretty nice if you have the muscles. Sounds are plenty good enough for gigging, no one but you would notice where they may not be state of the art. As long as you don't need custom samples or knobby synth stuff, you're really pretty well covered there. If you were sufficiently motivated, some small add-ons could tweak it, like a Roland SE-02 or similar for a knobby synth or a Vent/Lester to get a little more oomph out of the organ. Occasional need for a sample could be covered by an app if you have an i-device.
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#2884677 - 10/12/17 04:54 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
I'll bring two, but I'm never carting three.

Well your Yamaha S90ES/Roland VR-700 combo is pretty nice if you have the muscles. Sounds are plenty good enough for gigging, no one but you would notice where they may not be state of the art. As long as you don't need custom samples or knobby synth stuff, you're really pretty well covered there. If you were sufficiently motivated, some small add-ons could tweak it, like a Roland SE-02 or similar for a knobby synth or a Vent/Lester to get a little more oomph out of the organ. Occasional need for a sample could be covered by an app if you have an i-device.


I am pretty content with sounds on this pair - definitely chosen with great care. Heck it takes me 10mins to pick out a tooth brush. wink The weight of the S90ES with wheeled softcase is OK... just those moments where I get to gig and f*ck I need to do stairs. I've my eye on the PX-360/560 which I can do over my shoulder no problem. That SP6 has piqued by interest too. But I'd probably prefer a CP4 in the end... On the other hand, I am a stickler for action - am very interested to see what instruments the Kawai Grand Feel Compact show up in and how low they can get the weight... could it be in CP4 territory?
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#2884678 - 10/12/17 05:01 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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Me again, with what I'm sure is another question with a self-evident answer, only I'm kinda spinning my wheels trying to figure this one out. (Man, I hope this isn't another arranger/workstation thing--apologies in advance if it is.)

Can someone clarify for me the whole dedicated piano (e.g. the Yamaha S90ES mentioned in the post above) thing? I think I saw somewhere that the piano voices in such things are superior to the Motif/Montage or Kronos voices...or maybe not? I went to either the Yamaha or Korg site (don't remember which) and it said something to the effect of German, Austrian, etc. pianos, which sounds to me like the same ol', same ol' relative to the Motif/Montage or Kronos. So...like...what's the big deal? These things cost 2/3 to as much as a full synthesizer, but only have 5-10 voices. Why?

Grey
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#2884680 - 10/12/17 05:35 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: The Zombie MC]
CEB Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Zombie MC
I know I am... my acquisition has slowed way down, and there hasn't been any new gear in the last five years that has induced GAS. I have a lot of old gear from 1970s/80s/90s, and I have not found any compelling reason to replace them.

Not that there isn't anything good being made these days - I just don't NEED any more stuff. Keyboards, effects, amps, speakers, accessories... got everything I could want.

It's great to see the renaissance in modulars these days, but I started out with a PAiA modular back in 1981 and am not anxious to get back into modulars.

Another reason... I'm tired of reading manuals to learn new keyboards. There's no avoiding it as desktop or laptop computers advance, but I made a conscious decision years ago to minimize learning curves and/or choose interfaces that are intuitive.

Weight doesn't concern me as it does other players. Hammond players are always trying to lighten their tonewheels or clonewheels so I can understand their need.

Who else is complacent?


Lord knows I don't need more stuff. I've been giving some pieces aways. I rent a storage unit that full of gear.

Piano emulations not withstanding I don't think my rigs sound much better today than they did in in 1992. What has improved greatly is multi-timbral resources. I can gig out with the Kronos and pull off things I did in 92 but in 92 I used a D-50, SQ-1, SG-1, P-600 and a big rack full of synths.

My mental audio comparisons between now and then may be tricky because by in large modern stage amplification sucks today with IEMs and powered speakers compared with the large systems we carried then. But FOH systems are better today. I'm probably also guilty of remembering the old days as being better than they were. I'm running the D-05 in clean mode after all.
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#2884681 - 10/12/17 05:42 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Me again, with what I'm sure is another question with a self-evident answer, only I'm kinda spinning my wheels trying to figure this one out. (Man, I hope this isn't another arranger/workstation thing--apologies in advance if it is.)


Well i is a little like an arranger/workstation question because, again, there are no firm rules, and something can be called whatever the manufacturer wants to call it.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
Can someone clarify for me the whole dedicated piano (e.g. the Yamaha S90ES mentioned in the post above) thing? I think I saw somewhere that the piano voices in such things are superior to the Motif/Montage or Kronos voices...or maybe not?


In the case of the Yamaha S90ES, it had ALL the stock sounds that the contemporary Motif ES had, plus one additional (generally seen as higher quality) piano sound. However it did not have the "workstation" features of the Motif... no sequencer, and less sound editing capability, and no ability to add RAM to load additional/custom samples.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
I went to either the Yamaha or Korg site (don't remember which) and it said something to the effect of German, Austrian, etc. pianos, which sounds to me like the same ol', same ol' relative to the Motif/Montage or Kronos. So...like...what's the big deal? These things cost 2/3 to as much as a full synthesizer, but only have 5-10 voices. Why?

You're mistaken about them having only 5-10 voices. The top Korg piano, Grandstage, has 500 sounds. It's kind of a "best of Kronos" for a lot less money, again without all the Kronos workstation features like sequencer, sampling, extensive sound editing, MIDI controller functions, as well as yes, fewer sounds, but still a lot more than 5-10. The Yamaha CP4 similarly has 433 sounds, not 5-10, but again, nowhere near all the sounds and workstation functionality of a Motif/Montage. It also has some additional piano technology that's not in the Motif, the SCM (modeling) elements.
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#2884682 - 10/12/17 05:46 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Loc: USA, greater NY area
Originally Posted By: GRollins
Me again, with what I'm sure is another question with a self-evident answer, only I'm kinda spinning my wheels trying to figure this one out. (Man, I hope this isn't another arranger/workstation thing--apologies in advance if it is.)

Can someone clarify for me the whole dedicated piano (e.g. the Yamaha S90ES mentioned in the post above) thing? I think I saw somewhere that the piano voices in such things are superior to the Motif/Montage or Kronos voices...or maybe not? I went to either the Yamaha or Korg site (don't remember which) and it said something to the effect of German, Austrian, etc. pianos, which sounds to me like the same ol', same ol' relative to the Motif/Montage or Kronos. So...like...what's the big deal? These things cost 2/3 to as much as a full synthesizer, but only have 5-10 voices. Why?

Grey


Very strange mixing and matching of various pieces of info.
The biggest difference perhaps between previous generation Motifs and current Montage and Kronos models is the availability of storage for sample based programs/patches. The older models were limited by hundreds of megabytes of waveform data on ROMs where the newer models have around 1.5 gigabytes or more on flash ram. As such, the really desirable patches like acoustic piano sounds are able to offer greater detail with longer unlooped samples of each key (no stretching across multiple keys) and additional velocity layers and things like pedaling noise if you want that realism. Newer models also have modeled resonance that occurs between strings in an acoustic piano. How much these details matter in the mix of a live band is questionable. But they can sound great solo, especially in great headphones or with great monitors. But a good piano patch is a good piano patch (and of course subjective).

That said, an instrument like the Motif and S90ES, even CP4 additionally are great midi controllers for external instruments and software - where that need seems to have faded from users' desires if you take the arrival of instruments like the Grandstage, VOX Continental and similar as an indicator.
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#2884683 - 10/12/17 06:12 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
AnotherScott Offline
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p.s. -- there are *some* digital pianos that have only very few voices, and they are mostly found at the price extremes. At the very low end, something like a Casio PX-160 or Yamaha P-45 have only a handful of sounds, but they're cheap... at the high end, companies sometimes make models with their very best piano technology and little to nothing else, offering more sophisticated piano tech than any of their contemporary multi-purpose boards... i.e. Roland V-Piano, Yamaha CP1, Kawai MP11.
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#2884693 - 10/12/17 06:57 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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I'm running on about 2 1/2 hours sleep and my noggin ain't all together, but I pulled a couple of things together:

Korg SV-1 $1550 (roughly half the price of a Kronos) 36 voices
Korg Grandstage $2500 (about 2/3 the price of a Kronos) 500 voices (more than I'd remembered--these things are starting to run together in my mind--but still quite a few less than a Kronos)
Yamaha CP1 $5000 (now you're up into Montage price range, including stand, bench, amps, cables, etc., plus liquor to lubricate your groupies [yeah, right, dream on]) 17 voices

It's hard to make sense of this stuff, because if you search for Yamaha "keyboards" you don't see the CP1, for instance. So then you search for Yamaha "pianos" and you still don't see it. I'm sure there's a trick to this, but it'll take more sleep than I've had to get my head straight. I'm off to bed.

Grey
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#2884698 - 10/12/17 07:16 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
Tom Williams Offline
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Registered: 01/04/14
Posts: 603
Loc: West Virginia
I'm in the "Already happy, but considering next step" category. A Kurzweil K2600 provides bread-and-butter pianos, and a PC361 stacked on top gives me the rest that I currently need.

In fact, I could do it all with the PC361 and an 88 key MIDI controller underneath, but I don't quite have bet-the-gig faith in the PC361 by itself (My previous one often fails to even boot).

Dreams for the future: A lighter piano than the K2600, currently thinking either Casio or one of the lower cost Kurz stage pianos. Then purely for fun, I would love to get a Sledge and/or a Behringer Model D.
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#2884701 - 10/12/17 07:18 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
I'm running on about 2 1/2 hours sleep and my noggin ain't all together, but I pulled a couple of things together:

Korg SV-1 $1550 (roughly half the price of a Kronos) 36 voices
Korg Grandstage $2500 (about 2/3 the price of a Kronos) 500 voices (more than I'd remembered--these things are starting to run together in my mind--but still quite a few less than a Kronos)
Yamaha CP1 $5000 (now you're up into Montage price range, including stand, bench, amps, cables, etc., plus liquor to lubricate your groupies [yeah, right, dream on]) 17 voices

It's hard to make sense of this stuff, because if you search for Yamaha "keyboards" you don't see the CP1, for instance. So then you search for Yamaha "pianos" and you still don't see it. I'm sure there's a trick to this, but it'll take more sleep than I've had to get my head straight. I'm off to bed.

Grey


The CP1 has been around since 2010 that's why it's not big news. It's also a unique instrument in that it's a high end model that focuses on a limited best-in-Yamaha's-class sound set - it's also built like a tank and has a luxury vintage vibe that is reminiscent of a "real" (ie. not digital) instrument. It also has "concept car" feel to it with it's backlit chrome Yamaha logo and fluorescent display. It's not something I would be able to carry around - but I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers, if you get what I'm saying.
Here's a detailed write up in SoundOnSound:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-cp1

Like Scott was saying, more or less sounds doesn't make the instrument. There are a lot of factors in picking the right instrument for you and in many cases, the right instrument for the right job. Price is also not an indicator of number of sounds - I mean... heck, some instruments throw in loads of sounds for under $999. But are they all of high quality and meaningful to your use scenario? For someone looking for a lightweight jack of all trades board the Roland VR-09B is a winner... but it is built nothing like the CP1 or Kronos 8. Me personally I'd be miserable doing a piano gig with it. Right tool for the right job. Look for the features you need (want) within your budget. That's about all there is to that.
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#2884705 - 10/12/17 07:30 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
cphollis Offline
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Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 1926
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Totally agree, better to have a small number of voices that kill it vs. 10,000 that generally suck. A handful of classic AP, DP, B3 and clav can get me through all sorts of classique gigs.

Add maybe a dozen classic synth sounds, and the 80s are no problem.

Quality vs quantity.

Disclaimer: I personally enjoy mixing up the sound palette simply because I get bored. I'll throw in a cello solo, or maybe accordion, or synth guitar or whatever just to throw people a curve ball. But that's an entirely different agenda, isn't it?
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#2884706 - 10/12/17 07:33 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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You can't find the CP1 because it's discontinued.

The SV1 is an interesting animal, it's sound set is completely different from (rather than being a subset of) what's in some workstation (Kronos, Krome, Kross). It's AP lags at least two of those, but some people feel its EPs are still the best. It also has the tube. It also pre-dates any of those workstations, it dates to 2009, but still has its own, desirable vibe.
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#2884741 - 10/13/17 03:56 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
Legatoboy Offline
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#2884744 - 10/13/17 04:05 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 203
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
You can't find the CP1 because it's discontinued.

The SV1 is an interesting animal, it's sound set is completely different from (rather than being a subset of) what's in some workstation (Kronos, Krome, Kross). It's AP lags at least two of those, but some people feel its EPs are still the best. It also has the tube. It also pre-dates any of those workstations, it dates to 2009, but still has its own, desirable vibe.


Sweetwater seems to have the CP1 available as new product. Kraft Music as well. Musician's Friend has at least one as "open box." I, perhaps foolishly, assumed that if it was for sale new, that it was current--or at least only recently discontinued. If you search for the CP1 directly, Yamaha still has a web page for it; one that doesn't mention that it's discontinued. Maybe the page just needs updating.

The Korg SV-1 seems to me to run at least somewhat in the same vein, target market-wise.

So, with that in mind, let me try to restate my question since I seem to have misfired in my initial phrasing.

I'm not viewing this as a simple voice/$ ratio. I also understand that the quality of voices vary--my kids have a Yamaha PSR-200 and it's pretty rough sounding. My point is this: You're going to have a tough time convincing me that the electronics in one of these piano boards are significantly different from those in a more synth-oriented board/workstation/arranger/whatever. In fact, they're probably simpler. The mechanical parts (keys, controls, chassis parts, etc.) aren't going to be vastly different. So that leaves me withe the idea that the difference must be the voices--and I'm having a really tough time envisioning piano voices that are so superior that they're worth the cost/performance ratio, given that you're losing a jillion other voices in the equation, just to simplify the user interface (which, in and of itself, lowers the manufacturing costs--less programming and support hardware).

I understand the principle of charging what the market will bear, but who are the people who will pay $5k (in the case of the CP1) for a 'dumbed down' Motif/Montage? What's the motivation to buy something like this vs. a Kronos or Montage--then just ignore the unwanted voices? Or, conversely, why is it not priced at, say, $1k, at which point you'd sell a heap more of them. Yes, I'm aware that there are pianos at that price point, but what can you add to a board at that price that makes it worth the additional $4k? Or even $500, in the case of the SV-1?

Grey
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#2884762 - 10/13/17 06:35 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
Al Quinn Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
But will the NS3 be perfect? No... Nord's SW actions are more highly sprung than I'd prefer, and the NS3 has only 5 direct patch select buttons.

I feel the same way about the Nord SW action on my Electro 4D. I'm going to try swapping the springs in an attempt to lighten the action. I've had some springs sent to me by Syntaur and now need to test them out. If your interested I'll let you know how it goes.
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#2884766 - 10/13/17 06:54 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
CEB Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
You can't find the CP1 because it's discontinued.

The SV1 is an interesting animal, it's sound set is completely different from (rather than being a subset of) what's in some workstation (Kronos, Krome, Kross). It's AP lags at least two of those, but some people feel its EPs are still the best. It also has the tube. It also pre-dates any of those workstations, it dates to 2009, but still has its own, desirable vibe.


Sweetwater seems to have the CP1 available as new product. Kraft Music as well. Musician's Friend has at least one as "open box." I, perhaps foolishly, assumed that if it was for sale new, that it was current--or at least only recently discontinued. If you search for the CP1 directly, Yamaha still has a web page for it; one that doesn't mention that it's discontinued. Maybe the page just needs updating.

The Korg SV-1 seems to me to run at least somewhat in the same vein, target market-wise.

So, with that in mind, let me try to restate my question since I seem to have misfired in my initial phrasing.

I'm not viewing this as a simple voice/$ ratio. I also understand that the quality of voices vary--my kids have a Yamaha PSR-200 and it's pretty rough sounding. My point is this: You're going to have a tough time convincing me that the electronics in one of these piano boards are significantly different from those in a more synth-oriented board/workstation/arranger/whatever. In fact, they're probably simpler. The mechanical parts (keys, controls, chassis parts, etc.) aren't going to be vastly different. So that leaves me withe the idea that the difference must be the voices--and I'm having a really tough time envisioning piano voices that are so superior that they're worth the cost/performance ratio, given that you're losing a jillion other voices in the equation, just to simplify the user interface (which, in and of itself, lowers the manufacturing costs--less programming and support hardware).

I understand the principle of charging what the market will bear, but who are the people who will pay $5k (in the case of the CP1) for a 'dumbed down' Motif/Montage? What's the motivation to buy something like this vs. a Kronos or Montage--then just ignore the unwanted voices? Or, conversely, why is it not priced at, say, $1k, at which point you'd sell a heap more of them. Yes, I'm aware that there are pianos at that price point, but what can you add to a board at that price that makes it worth the additional $4k? Or even $500, in the case of the SV-1?

Grey


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#2884773 - 10/13/17 07:33 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
You can't find the CP1 because it's discontinued.

Sweetwater seems to have the CP1 available as new product. Kraft Music as well. Musician's Friend has at least one as "open box." I, perhaps foolishly, assumed that if it was for sale new, that it was current--or at least only recently discontinued. If you search for the CP1 directly, Yamaha still has a web page for it; one that doesn't mention that it's discontinued. Maybe the page just needs updating.

Sorry, looks like I was mistaken. According to this thread (itself somewhat dated), they transitioned it to periodic limited production as needed. http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2724605/Re_Yamaha_CP1_No_Mas_We_hardly
At some point Yamaha discontinued the CP300, then brought it back at a higher price. I guess if there's sufficient demand at a high enough price point, Yamaha is willing to do limited runs as needed.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
The Korg SV-1 seems to me to run at least somewhat in the same vein, target market-wise.

As the CP1? No, I don't think they target(ed) the same buyer.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
You're going to have a tough time convincing me that the electronics in one of these piano boards are significantly different from those in a more synth-oriented board/workstation/arranger/whatever. In fact, they're probably simpler. The mechanical parts (keys, controls, chassis parts, etc.) aren't going to be vastly different. So that leaves me withe the idea that the difference must be the voices--and I'm having a really tough time envisioning piano voices that are so superior that they're worth the cost/performance ratio, given that you're losing a jillion other voices

I mentioned CP1, V-Piano, and MP11. At least at the time these models came out, there was no less expensive keyboard that had everything these keyboards had and more. Though the CP5 came very, very close to that. Worth the price difference? That's an individual decision. And sometimes the electronics and the keys are indeed vastly different. And sometimes someone has no need for a jillion other voices.

In the details, each situation is different...

...CP1--and the cheaper CP5 which had a lot of Motif sounds added--had what was generally considered a much better piano action than any Motif, and also included modeling as opposed to the purely sampled pianos and EPs of the Motifs. (So that tasks your comparison two ways... is a CP5 worth the price relative to a MOX/Motif, and is the CP1 worth the price relative to a CP5.)

...Roland V-Piano was entirely modeled, no samples at all, and the user could even customize the modeling to a good degree. Those sounds and that technology simply didn't exist in any cheaper Roland, there was zero overlap between the V-Piano and anything cheaper. (I think it also may have been the first model to use its particular action.)

...MP 11 has far fewer sounds than the step-down MP7, but has a very different action, and the best piano sounds of the MP11 are not in the MP7.

Are any of these worth their price premium? Judgment call. Again, there are virtually no universal truths when comparing "digital pianos" to "workstation/synths" (similar to the arranger vs workstation thing). And remember again, not all dedicated piano models are premium priced, many are indeed cheaper than more versatile instruments from the same companies, just as you think they should be, like the Nord Piano vs the Nord Stage series, or the lower cost Casios vs. higher, or the Roland FP series vs the RD series. But in some cases, there are "statement pieces" where a company puts some unique technology into creating simply their best piano models, with some combination of sound/technology/action that does not exist in their lesser prices "full featured" offerings. Over time, a lot of their tech does make it down to lower priced instruments, though not always.

In short, I"d say that comparing categories is not as useful as comparing individual instruments.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
I understand the principle of charging what the market will bear, but who are the people who will pay $5k (in the case of the CP1) for a 'dumbed down' Motif/Montage? What's the motivation to buy something like this vs. a Kronos or Montage--then just ignore the unwanted voices?

So again, CP1 is not a dumbed down Motif, its action and some of its sonic qualities/technologies are unique to the CP, and if someone only cares about pianos, they might prefer the piano experience of the CP1 to a Motif/Montage. Yes, its a niche product which presumably sells in far smaller quantities, but there is some market for it. Not every product has to be one designed for the masses. Most people probably don't want to pay $3500 for a one-voice synthesizer, but there are still a bunch of very happy owners of the Minimoog reissue.

As for Kronos, Korg does not make a more expensive piano than that, so the decision is the reverse, whether you want to pay less money for a similar sounding (from a piano perspective) and operationally simpler GrandStage that has far fewer sounds and other capabilities.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
Or, conversely, why is it not priced at, say, $1k, at which point you'd sell a heap more of them.

Or heck, sell them for $50 and see how many they would sell! Obviously there's some minimum cost where they could sell it profitably, but determining pricing is its own art. It's possible that it is more profitable to sell 100 of them at $5000 than it is to sell 500 of them at half the price, if that were even a viable option. And, at half the price, it could have some cannibalization effect on other models that are already selling well at that price, more profitably. Really, what something "should" sell for is something that we, as outsiders, really have almost no way to intelligently discuss. We just don't know the relative costs of the different actions or electronics (since again, none of the high end dedicated pianos are truly an exact subset of some lower priced product), nor do we have access to the market data that would give us any idea of what sales would likely be for a given product at at a given price.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
what can you add to a board at that price that makes it worth the additional $4k? Or even $500, in the case of the SV-1?

All I can say is, play them for yourself. If someone likes a board's unique sound and feel, and they can afford it, it can be worth it for that person, and only you know if it can possibly be worth it to you. There are indeed people who love their CP1 or V-Piano or MP11, even though you can get what many people consider perfectly good pianos (or workstations/synths with piano sounds) for $1000. The only one of those I can speak to personally is the SV1, and yes, if EPs are a focus, I would say it's worth $500 more than any $1000 piano/synth/workstation, from Korg or anyone else. Korg's lower priced but more fully-featured Kross is simply not in the same league, in either action or sound. (Even apart from EP, I'd take the SV1 over the Kross for AP as well.) It's also operationally an entirely different experience. (And it's also not nearly as good as a CP1/CP5 for acoustic piano.)


Edited by AnotherScott (10/13/17 07:40 AM)
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#2884775 - 10/13/17 07:43 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Al Quinn]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I feel the same way about the Nord SW action on my Electro 4D. I'm going to try swapping the springs in an attempt to lighten the action. I've had some springs sent to me by Syntaur and now need to test them out. If your interested I'll let you know how it goes.

Oh yes! I have Syntaur's (now discontinued) replacement springs in my Artis7, very happy with the change. I wasn't aware Syntaur ever offered anything for the Nord, it's not on their web site as far as I can see.
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#2884784 - 10/13/17 08:34 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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I've got a dead (possibly permanently, but I'd like to try to revive it) Kurtzweil K2500 here next to me as I write. As far as the electronics go, the power transformer is the single most expensive part (these days a lot of stuff uses prefab switching power supplies, but that's another discussion) and it probably only ran--shooting from the hip--$15-20 tops--very likely $8-10 in quantity. Prices drop off rapidly from there. Individual resistors are cheap as dirt (pennies) when you're buying 5000 at a time. Even things like PCBs are only a few bucks apiece. These prices don't change when you're building a different model. A chip doesn't know or care whether it's going into a Montage or a CP1, it's the same part at the same cost, either way, once the bean counters decided how many to buy.

There's no magic involved in this stuff, just engineering. Precious little "research," no matter what the sales literature would have you believe. The word "technology" is a buzzword thrown in to make things seem complicated, but it's real use is rooted in the intricacies of trademark law (e.g. Yamaha's AWM), not the nuts and bolts reality of electrons flowing through circuitry.

So somebody goes out and records a Steinway in a studio. Play all 88 notes under a variety of conditions. Record them. Let's be generous and say it takes two days and costs something like, what would be realistic for a high price, $2-3000.00? Then you take it back to the factory and from then on it's just bytes to be programmed into ROM. At this point, you're in the same position as, say, Microsoft, where you're just churning out endless copies of the same file (and Microsoft had to pay a lot of programmers to get their Windows code, the Steinway didn't get paid, only a couple of humans recording the Steinway...but I digress) at no additional cost; just burn the ROM (ROM's cheap, by the way) solder it, and out the door it goes.

Just looks to me as though the CP1 and related products are particularly high profit margin items. After all, a 2.21k resistor costs the same whether it's in a CP1 or my kids' PSR-200. They've bought a generic part and it's in stock, on the shelf, ready to be used in any of Yamaha's products. If, as I suspect, the CP1 is actually much simpler on the inside than a synth, the parts cost is actually lower; possibly half the cost of a full synth.

The keys may be different, but are they really that much more as a physical item? This is an area where I freely admit that I don't have answers. What's a keybed cost in quantity?

Are the piano sounds actually different in a CP1, compared to a Montage? Add another day to the studio time to record the samples. Or--more likely--record all your samples at the same time, then take them home and put the original file in the top o' the line machine, degrade the signal a little and put it in the second tier machines...etc.

There's always a diminishing return as you go up the product line. Spend 30% more to get a 10% improvement. I understand that, but it seems like the ratio might be 50% more for a 2% improvement in this case.

Hmmm...clearly people are willing to put a premium on their piano experience. More power to them.

Grey
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#2884801 - 10/13/17 09:47 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
So somebody goes out and records a Steinway in a studio. Play all 88 notes under a variety of conditions. Record them. Let's be generous and say it takes two days and costs something like, what would be realistic for a high price, $2-3000.00? Then you take it back to the factory and from then on it's just bytes to be programmed into ROM.... just burn the ROM (ROM's cheap, by the way) solder it, and out the door it goes.

As I mentioned, some units use modeling instead of or in addition to samples. Still, yes, it's all ultimately bytes of code in silicon. I admit, I have no idea what it costs to manufacture custom ROM in a given quantity. The amount of ROM has traditionally been one of the big differentiators between companies' lower and higher priced keyboards (whether that additional ROM was used for greater quantity of instrument sounds, better quality of instrument sounds, or some combination). And more expensive if rewritable (which, okay, technically is not ROM anymore) versus not.

I have read that the rule of thumb is that a $100 parts cost typically translates to a $400-$500 price at retail. I expect there are exceptions, and indeed a CP1 may have a higher parts markup than a P45.

Originally Posted By: GRollins
Hmmm...clearly people are willing to put a premium on their piano experience. More power to them.

Bingo, I think you've got it! ;-) It's also why people will some people will buy a $50,000 piano instead of a $10,000 piano.
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#2884808 - 10/13/17 09:57 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
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Me? I'm in the "buy top shelf stuff, used" category. I cannot conceive of a path in life that would lead to me buying even the $10,000 piano, much less its big brother.

Grey
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#2884814 - 10/13/17 10:14 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
I cannot conceive of a path in life that would lead to me buying even the $10,000 piano, much less its big brother.

Marry rich.
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#2884817 - 10/13/17 10:21 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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Methinks my wife would raise an eyebrow...

Grey
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#2884850 - 10/13/17 11:51 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
Devnor Offline
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Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 145
ROM is cheap. There's a chip in there, either SHARC DSP or more likely something totally custom, to processing the modeling. Custom ICs are terribly expensive and need for this chip is the reason why they just can't simply drop it into a Montage or MOXF.

Regarding price, you can ask this question about any high end synth. A Kronos 88 is $3799. It contains a $150 PC mobo inside. Where does the added expense come from? It's running basically the same software from the decade old+ OASYS & Kronos 1 with incremental improvements. It's hardly in the control surface or keybed. I own a Kronos 2.

I wouldn't buy a CP1 either because the PA systems I use cannot reproduce the nuances of that piano.

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#2884866 - 10/13/17 12:53 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
Frightful Mike Offline
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Posts: 2692
Originally Posted By: GRollins
Me? I'm in the "buy top shelf stuff, used" category. I cannot conceive of a path in life that would lead to me buying even the $10,000 piano, much less its big brother.

Grey

I would have no problem with the concept of spending $100,000.00 + on a piano, other than the fact that I don't have it. puff
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#2884867 - 10/13/17 12:53 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Devnor]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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We're of course paying for IP in a comparatively small market (when compared to cars and phones for example). So it's not exactly the same economy of scale. But we do have the same expectations for reliability, warranty, authorized service, and to have access to try these instruments before buying - either on a showroom floor or from a dealer with return policy. It's not the cost of the silicon - it's what resides on it - sound design, user interface design, firmware development, software support, all of this costs money and needs to be recouped while everyone takes a cut along the way to your home.

Yes there is "luxury" pricing in fine instruments. Most families couldn't afford a baby grand or grand and still can't. Thankfully piano manufactures developed upright designs. And today, instruments like the PS you've mentioned and better yet the PX-160, ES-110, P115 etc. have brought the joy of making keyboard music to the masses, more affordable than any upright acoustic worth playing. But at the same time, you can't compare the CP1 and instruments like it to a PS or PX, ES, P etc. If you have them side by side you'll immediately realize why. Too expensive? Perhaps, but they sell a lot less of them. And yes, you can always wait for second hand - same as you might with a car or phone. Or, what a lot of people do now is get a Kawai VPC-1 or MP11 and USB to a laptop to trigger the ever growing collection of superbly recorded and designed piano libraries in VST/AU format.

Again, point being - thankfully there are myriad options in every price range for those with the desire to learn to play the piano keyboard. Access to fine instruments has always been directly related to economics. You need disposable income to play - China has had an acoustic piano boom the last few years as they have a new "middle class" that loves the idea of having a possible Lang Lang in the house.
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#2884967 - 10/14/17 06:26 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Phoney R Wakeman Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
W

Yes there is "luxury" pricing in fine instruments. Most families couldn't afford a baby grand or grand and still can't. Thankfully piano manufactures developed upright designs. .

Again, point being - thankfully there are myriad options in every price range for those with the desire to learn to play the piano keyboard. Access to fine instruments has always been directly related to economics. You need disposable income to play - China has had an acoustic piano boom the last few years as they have a new "middle class" that loves the idea of having a possible Lang Lang in the house.



Another factor with families purchasing a grand is room. Many homes are not aggressively large here in CA. And when the home exceeds 2500 sq ft, it has 2 levels.

Just for fun, I searched our local CL ( east bay) for grands over $2800, I found 50, many over $10k. There are many towns with the wealthy demographic here.

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#2884977 - 10/14/17 07:57 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Phoney R Wakeman]
GRollins Offline
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$10k pianos get listed on my local CL about once every month or two (just one at a time, mind you)...invariably a cross listing from an adjacent state. Sometimes two states away. I've always said that living in this area is not all that far removed from living in a third world nation. Pretty sad, actually.

Grey
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#2884991 - 10/14/17 10:11 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
zephonic Offline
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Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
I'm not sure if complacent is the right word, but I have become less obsessed with hunting for the perfect instrument.

Over the last 17 months I've gone from a flagship setup (Fantom X7 and NordPiano) to an entry-level setup (Korg Krome 73 and Yamaha MX88). I bought both of these as temporary solutions, to hold me over, the idea behind it being to migrate to a laptop with VI's.

I've done that, but for most gigs I'm too lazy to schlep the laptop and its peripherals, and I end up just using the MX and Krome.

Another factor is that I would like to have a flagship rig, but the stuff I want is not there: a Fantom-like new Roland 76-key with aftertouch, and an S90-like Yamaha 88-key based on the Montage.

I'm kind of hoping we'll see some of that at next NAMM. If that came to pass, I doubt I'd bother with the laptop at all.
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#2884994 - 10/14/17 10:37 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
Phoney R Wakeman Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: GRollins
$10k pianos get listed on my local CL about once every month or two (just one at a time, mind you)...invariably a cross listing from an adjacent state. Sometimes two states away. I've always said that living in this area is not all that far removed from living in a third world nation. Pretty sad, actually.

Grey


I hear you. It would be difficult for me to not have all the choice and diversity here.

Every area has its problems, some are serious. We are 90 miles from the tragic wild fires, for example.

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#2885003 - 10/14/17 11:22 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: Phoney R Wakeman]
GRollins Offline
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We get hurricanes. The center of the country gets tornadoes. If Mama Nature decides to kick butt, she has her tools.

I've seen hints that the Yellowstone supervolcano may be stirring in its slumbers. If that gets going, we'll all have problems.

Grey
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#2885006 - 10/14/17 11:33 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
timwat Offline
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All regions have inherent potential problems, that is true. Hurricanes, floods, tornadoes.

Out here we not only have the current wildfires, but the omnipresent threat of earthquakes as well.

It all gets personal when it gets personal, though. My son lives very close to the fire line, and was put on potential evacuation alert. His house has been in our family for over 20 years. But for a change in the direction and intensity of the wind, he could be homeless right now...we're still praying and watching the hour-by-hour updates.

Back on topic - I have an embarrassment of riches I don't use to its fullest and still as a trained-and-indoctrinated American, I'm tempted on occasion to think about yet another purchase. The more I gig, the more I'm convinced 1) another purchase would be superfluous, 2) futile, in that it wouldn't make me sound any better, 3) of little effect, as no audience I play for would notice or care (except other musicians).

Logic soundly convinces me coddling such a temptation is a fool's errand. What annoys me is how strong this little nagging grip is on my non-rational thinking.

I don't think this qualifies as complacency...or contentedness.

I need to practice more than I do, and that will make my current gear - first rate, by any measure - sound even better than it already does.
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#2885007 - 10/14/17 11:46 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: timwat]
count doerflera Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat

I need to practice more than I do, and that will make my current gear - first rate, by any measure - sound even better than it already does.


my new sig line, thanks Tim. cheers
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#2885017 - 10/14/17 12:52 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: timwat]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Loc: USA, greater NY area
Also generally pianos, like cars are worth considerably less the moment of delivery. They have to be quite a special instrument of the golden era and fully restored to command top $ from just the right buyer. A 5'10" Boston (made by Kawai factory to Steinway spec) still fetches $2X,000 new. But wonderful instruments that are now over 100 years old wind up in dumpsters. Unless lucky enough to be found by a rebuilder in which case they may be $8k, $10k, etc. This is the way it is with pianos in the 2000s.
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Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k

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#2885042 - 10/14/17 04:08 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: timwat]
Moonglow Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 4429
Loc: Northwest Indiana
Originally Posted By: timwat
Logic soundly convinces me coddling such a temptation is a fool's errand. What annoys me is how strong this little nagging grip is on my non-rational thinking.

I think this is signature worthy, as well! twothumbs

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Found a little of myself in several posts.

I've been gigging with my Kronos 88 and Jupiter-80 for close to five years now. Probably my longest, most stable gig-rig stint. Like EJF, I have imposed a two-keyboard limit on my rig. I refuse to use more than two physical keyboards live, although it could be argued that the combined weight of my K88 and JP-80 more than make up for carrying extra keyboards. But that's not the reason for the two-keyboard limitation; I simply like the streamlined look of just two keyboards. I do think the Kronos and Jupiter look badass on my Z-stand. Vanity, I guess.

The above doesn't mean that I have stopped buying keyboards, modules, etc. I have a bad habit of buying a new piece of gear, playing it for a while in my music room...and there it sits. New toys are fun, but my god. Probably why Tim's quote above resonated with me.

I also have not been motivated to revamp my rig because that would involve too damn much programming work. I hear other keyboards with a better piano sound or a better organ sound, but none have yet made me cross the rig-change trip wire. I also use a ton of Busch's sounds in my Kronos, which I would have difficulty replicating. The Nord Stage 3-88 may be the strongest candidate, especially now that it has a Set List mode (I know that is Korgspeak).

My most recent purchase, a D-05, will definitely make an appearance in my rig; I've been waiting too long for this thing to show up. That upper-right panel of unoccupied real estate on my Kronos was made for it.

The thing I probably need to get more serious about is my stage amplification. I'm kind of old-school and prefer a 15-inch woofer, and my JBL PRX 615m is getting a little ragged. The EV ETX-15P sounds fantastic. Actually, I'm thinking about getting two of them. Only 69.5 pounds per. crazy
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."
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#2885082 - 10/14/17 08:25 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
AnotherScott Offline
10k Club

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 11109
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Sam Mullins
I had my Stage 2 before I had a Kronos.

Nord used to have more of a "split on the fly" advantage for quickly calling up different sounds on different parts of the keyboard, but the latest Kronos software update added some nice functionality there.

I finally got the chance to play with the Quick Split function on the Kronos. It's really meant to be a quick way to set up Combis you can save, not so much to be an instant way to call up sounds on the fly. You can use it the latter way, but there are limitations. Notably, it does not employ the board's "Seamless Sound Switching" -- if you're playing LH bass, and you want to pick a different sound for the RH from the Quick Split screen, your previous RH sound will simply cut out, and even your LH bass sound will briefly cut out, not great.

You also can't leave that screen unless you either cancel the split or write it as a combi. That is, you can't simply use the split "for now," and keep playing while you call up some other screen (like Set List, to select your next sound, or any of the other screens you might want to call up while playing). So really, the Quick Split is still very much designed for advance setup, much more than something you'd want to use during the gig.

It's still a really nice feature, it really speeds up setting up a bunch of those splits, which you can then put on a Set List for quick on-stage recall. But you do want to set up whatever splits you might want before you need them. In all fairness, there are very few boards that are really good at grabbing any sound you want and putting it on either half of the keyboard in real time. I had high hopes for the FA-07 in this regard, but it didn't work as well as I'd have liked either. Korg-wise, it looks like the GrandStage might be good at this, I haven't had a chance to play one yet.
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#2885338 - 10/16/17 11:01 AM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: AnotherScott]
Nadread Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 946
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Great thread. My reponse: I am complacent, and will likely never be satisfied. Not because there's nothing good out there, but because I'm just a selfish, needy and ungrateful human being.
I mostly play with in ears live and with headphones at home. Amplification isn't an issue for me. As a result, I'm now at the point where I know exactly what I want to hear.

My Roland FA-06, which I've played, programmed and loved for years, now sounds dead to my ears. When I first got it, its features and synths were a dream. Having played and experimented with so many other keyboards and modules now, I can't get the warmth out of it that I want. It sounds very digital and cold to my ears. There are other keyboards I sit down at, and even the simplest polysynth patch on them can make me feel all fuzzy. Hell, I've tried for months to get the same warmth out of the Roland that I can get out of a static synth sample loaded into my Electro, and while I can tweak and shape away, I just can't get it there. It's close, but not quite there. The result: GAS for something "better".

Mainstage and alchemy bring that warmth. My Macbook is very old and shaky though, and Mainstage struggles to load Alchemy in a stable way at home, let alone on stage. And the controller functions of the keyboards I own? Close, but not quite there. The result: GAS for something "better".

In the same way, having explored many digital pianos, I've discovered that the only hardware pianos that can make me get lost in playing are the Nord Pianos. Even on the SW action, I could play them all night. But on the Electro I'm limited to playing piano, and piano alone. Can't layer. Can't add delay AND reverb at the same time. It's close, but not quite there. The result: GAS for something "better".

At first it made me look for a "holy grail". It looked like the Nord Stage 3. But even now I've realised for me to play the organ stuff I want, I could do with pedals and a second manual. That would require buying a dual manual organ on top of it. It's close, but not quite there. The result: GAS for something "better".

The result? An entire rig that's close, but not quite there. The result: GAS for something "better".

What are my options? Many. But they're all too expensive.

We simply don't have the money for me to upgrade my gear, so I choose to stay thankful for what I have and live with it. Compared to other situations in the world, it's trivial. I look forward to the day when I no longer covet so many new shiny things, but until then GAS will be GAS, and the grass will always seem greener...
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#2885590 - 10/17/17 09:01 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 7586
Loc: Ghost Planet
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Also generally pianos, like cars are worth considerably less the moment of delivery. They have to be quite a special instrument of the golden era and fully restored to command top $ from just the right buyer. A 5'10" Boston (made by Kawai factory to Steinway spec) still fetches $2X,000 new. But wonderful instruments that are now over 100 years old wind up in dumpsters. Unless lucky enough to be found by a rebuilder in which case they may be $8k, $10k, etc. This is the way it is with pianos in the 2000s.


I was talking with a piano tech acquaintance of mine today (he was actually Keith Jarrett's tech during the ECM years) and he said the used market for grands has gone completely quiet. He rebuilds them and Steinways still have a market, but little else. At least that's what he's been seeing.

Busch.

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#2885765 - 10/18/17 02:33 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: GRollins]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 927
Originally Posted By: GRollins

There's no magic involved in this stuff, just engineering. Precious little "research," no matter what the sales literature would have you believe. The word "technology" is a buzzword thrown in to make things seem complicated, but it's real use is rooted in the intricacies of trademark law (e.g. Yamaha's AWM), not the nuts and bolts reality of electrons flowing through circuitry.

So somebody goes out and records a Steinway in a studio. Play all 88 notes under a variety of conditions. Record them. Let's be generous and say it takes two days and costs something like, what would be realistic for a high price, $2-3000.00? Then you take it back to the factory and from then on it's just bytes to be programmed into ROM. At this point, you're in the same position as, say, Microsoft, where you're just churning out endless copies of the same file (and Microsoft had to pay a lot of programmers to get their Windows code, the Steinway didn't get paid, only a couple of humans recording the Steinway...but I digress) at no additional cost; just burn the ROM (ROM's cheap, by the way) solder it, and out the door it goes.
Grey


If it were only as "simple" as you wrote. Sure, the studio session is only a few days... with the cost of tuning/regulating/repair etc. But the time spent parsing through the samples, cleaning them up, editing, building the multisamples and so on usually takes man months-years of work. It's not just "bytes to be programmed into ROM." You are seriously over-simplifying it... but I wouldn't expect you to know. You've never worked for a company nor done it yourself.

Suffice it to say you're way off.

Carry on!

Regards,

Jerry

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#2885775 - 10/18/17 04:37 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: jerrythek]
GRollins Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 203
Always nice to hear from an expert.

Grey
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#2885788 - 10/18/17 08:04 PM Re: Are you complacent with your gear? [Re: burningbusch]
ElmerJFudd Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5273
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Also generally pianos, like cars are worth considerably less the moment of delivery. They have to be quite a special instrument of the golden era and fully restored to command top $ from just the right buyer. A 5'10" Boston (made by Kawai factory to Steinway spec) still fetches $2X,000 new. But wonderful instruments that are now over 100 years old wind up in dumpsters. Unless lucky enough to be found by a rebuilder in which case they may be $8k, $10k, etc. This is the way it is with pianos in the 2000s.


I was talking with a piano tech acquaintance of mine today (he was actually Keith Jarrett's tech during the ECM years) and he said the used market for grands has gone completely quiet. He rebuilds them and Steinways still have a market, but little else. At least that's what he's been seeing.

Busch.


Correct, with a slow market there's little reason for the rebuilders to invest time in bringing anything but Steinways, maybe a Mason & Hamlin back to life... although other older models from the 1920s like my 1920 Chickering or same time period Knabe can be a really fine instrument for someone one a tighter budget. That said - the other thing rebuilders do now is get their hands on instruments with potential and they don't bother getting into restoring until a client requests it. Once a buyer is secured they get into the rebuilding process.
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