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#2884163 - 10/09/17 11:45 PM Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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Registered: 06/16/10
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Earlier today I was in Joe Muscara’s neighborhood, so I dropped by his place with my recently-acquired Legend Solo to see how it stacked up against his Mojo 61, which was a board I had yet to try out:



Short version of the verdict: I will be returning the Legend and ordering a Mojo 61. While both boards have things to recommend them and would blow away all of the competition from even a few years ago, for my tastes and needs the Mojo was the clear winner in pretty much every way.

Here’s what bugged me about the Legend: a slight-but-noticeable digital harshness in both the basic tone and the overdrive; a stiffer action than I’d like; a surprisingly unconvincing key click; a C3 chorus that doesn’t quite work for me (and can’t be adjusted); and a strange quirk with the split mode. The Mojo performed beautifully on all these counts. The basic tone sounds more realistic to me. The overdrive is warm and natural. (I didn’t bring my Vent to compare directly, but any difference is small enough not to matter to me.) The lighter action is easier to play and closer to the real thing. The key click is the best I’ve heard on any clone except the XK5 with its triple contact system. The C3 chorus shimmers in exactly the way I like. And the split mode works like I’d expect it to.

And those are just the things that the Legend does, that the Mojo does more to my liking. Then there are all the things the Mojo does that the Legend doesn’t do at all: many more organ models to choose from; extensive tweakability of nearly every imaginable parameter; and a collection of other bread-and-butter sounds ranging from not bad (AP) to stunning (Clav).

Here’s the weird thing about splitting the Legend (and it’s tricky to explain verbally, so bear with me): in single mode you can switch back and forth between both sets of drawbars, and the right set uses percussion, just like the first two sets on a real Hammond. But when you switch it to split mode, the left set is for the upper “manual” (right side of the split), and the right set is for the lower manual (left side). This too mimics how a real Hammond works – left two sets for the upper manual, right two for the lower. BUT, in practice this means that if you’re playing in single mode and using a setting with percussion (i.e. the right set of drawbars), and then you hit the split button, suddenly sound on the upper manual changes to the left drawbar setting, but WITH the percussion engaged; and the lower manual has whatever setting you were previously playing, but without the percussion. In other words, if you want to go from playing the Jimmy Smith setting across the board to splitting the board with that sound on top and another on bottom, with a single button click, you can’t. (Or at least, that’s not how the board works out of the box. If there’s some way to change that, I didn’t go looking for it because by that time I’d already decided I liked the Mojo better.)

To my ears, the Leslie sims on both boards are top notch as far as realism of the spinning; I couldn’t pick a winner between the two, and I don’t think either would be noticeably improved by a Vent. But I find the overdrive on the Mojo vastly superior. I see a lot of Legend owners talking about using a Tall & Fat pedal in the effects loop, and shortly after I got mine I started considering finding one to try out. The Mojo doesn’t need it; it just sounds the way I want it to. Not to mention that the Mojo lets you tweak essentially all the Leslie parameters, while the Legend lets you tweak zero of them.

Other sounds on the Mojo… The acoustic piano is nothing special, but better than none. Would I use it on a gig? Probably not, unless it was strictly in the background for just a couple tunes. Would I use it at a rehearsal rather than bringing two boards? In half a heartbeat. The Rhodes started off sounding pretty good, and got better once I started tweaking it. But I didn’t spend too much time with it because I’m more of a Wurly guy… and the Wurly was damn impressive. The only one I like better in the hardware realm is the Purgatory Creek sample for the Forte, and that may not even be a fair comparison since I’ve haven't played the Mojo’s from a weighted board. And the Clav rocked my friggin’ world. The combination of the tone, responsiveness, keyboard feel and effects just made me want to sit there and play all the Clav stuff I know. It is my new favorite Clav sound, hands down.

Oh, speaking of weighted keys, while the Mojo action is quite light, I nonetheless found the EP sounds very easy to play expressively. Not the same as a weighted board, of course, but if I’ve had better response in an unweighted board, I can’t recall it.

Some people don’t seem to like the fact that you need a wifi device to edit the Mojo. That’s a matter of preference I suppose. For me, given the choice between tapping my phone a few times and then having a clear and intuitive interface, or having to menu-dive with a bunch of multi-function buttons and a cryptic two-character LED screen, I’ll take the former any time.

Other exceedingly minor tidbits: the Mojo is slightly more compact, uses a better color wood, and has a cooler logo. Given all that, I’m afraid that literally the only things I prefer about the Legend are the slight weight advantage (3 pounds) and the blue LEDs.

To help put my remarks into a useful context, here are some things I personally don’t care about in a clonewheel, which, if you do care about them, you should take what I say with the appropriate grain of salt: multiple sets of drawbars (all else being equal, sure, I'll take more; but the Mojo's "hold" workaround is just fine for me); number of storable presets; having a dedicated knob/button for every parameter; pipe organ, Vox or Farfisa sounds; the specific shape and feel of the various switches and knobs; effects loop for external processing (since all I want is a clone that doesn’t need any); connectors for a Leslie; internal-vs-external power supply; pedals (yet); drawbar feel/smoothness; separate pedal outputs; the minutiae of the exact harmonic balance of the percussion against this one drawbar on this one particular setting on these three specific notes in the top octave.

Final thoughts: Both boards are better organ clones than have been available until recently. The Legend clearly has a lot of fans, and specifically a lot of people who prefer it over the Mojo. All I can surmise from that is that their tastes and requirements are different from mine. While I spent the better part of an hour comparing specific details, the truth is I knew within ten seconds that I was gonna trade in the Legend for a Mojo, because I instantly found it more fun and inspiring to play. If you’re debating between the two, I HIGHLY recommend playing both before making a decision, which I now wish I had done.

And thanks, Joe, for the hang!
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#2884167 - 10/10/17 03:03 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
sosho Offline
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Hello , I tried both next to each other ( the older dual manual crumar ) in a store briefly with crappy headphones and made pretty much exactly the same observations. I ordered the GSI ( I am used to the standard fatar and in my experience it gets softer over time ) an hour later , unfortunately it arrived here broken . I am sure both can sound equally good with appropriate speakers but for me , out of the box , it was just like you described it ( except maybe the overdrive which I did not like much on both compared to HX3 , so I would have liked to see an insert ) After I ordered it there were some reports on the facebook group about reliability issues with the crumar.But probably it is just the fact that satisfied customers don' t post on forums . Hopefully the scanner board is not velcroed in as it seems to be in the dual manual mojo ( somebody posted a photo)

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#2884168 - 10/10/17 03:04 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Al Quinn Offline
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FunkKeyStuff, wow great review! Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts. I've been in a holding pattern on whether to get a Mojo 61 or Legend Solo. I have a dual manual Mojo (which I love) and was looking for an opportunity to play a Legend to make a final decision on a single manual organ. You're review is very helpful.
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#2884180 - 10/10/17 06:14 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Quinn]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
FunkKeyStuff, wow great review!


Agreed, thanks Joshua. As you mentioned it is best to always try something out first before buying, but this is not always possible. These types of reviews can really help those of us who are unable to try first.
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#2884186 - 10/10/17 06:36 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: davedoerfler]
Outkaster Offline
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I returned my Mojo. From all the problems with having to send it back twice really did it for me. Plus it got lost in the mix sometimes and it has a shitty layout drawbar wise.
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#2884189 - 10/10/17 06:41 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Nice writeup.

Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
the Clav rocked my friggin’ world. The combination of the tone, responsiveness, keyboard feel and effects just made me want to sit there and play all the Clav stuff I know. It is my new favorite Clav sound, hands down.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I really like playing clav from the Nord Electro 5D because its release happens at the low contact point instead of the high contact point, which makes it feel snappier to play. Any chance Mojo employs the same trick?

Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
the only things I prefer about the Legend are the slight weight advantage (3 pounds)

I was wondering why the Mojo is as heavy as it is. According to their web sites, the Nord Electro 5D-61 is 17.85 lbs, the Mojo 61 is 25.35. Mechanically (keys, controls, chassis) the two would seem to have a similar starting point, but the Crumar weighs 7.5 lbs more. Its sound generating electronics are not uncharacteristically heavy, since the Gemini module, which would seem to have roughly equivalent sound generating electronics, is only about 3.3 lbs in total. In terms of other electronics, the Nord has more than twice as many controls, plus displays. And the Nord even has an internal power supply which the Mojo does not. I guess its mostly the bigger chassis, at least some of which is probably necessitated by using real drawbars that need somewhere to go instead of drawfaders. But you could get the NE5D *and* a Gemini module and it would weigh about 4 lbs less than a Mojo 61! You could even use the 73 key version of the Nord, and still be a couple of pounds ahead (though a good number of dollars behind).

Really, although obviously pricier, I think a Gemini paired with a 7x has nice advantages over the Mojo61, if the 7x has the proper controls and MIDI implementation. Besides Nord, the Numa Organ 2 might be a good candidate for that (also known for having an above average action), and maybe Hammond SK1-73. (A Kurzweil Artis7 could work, but obviously getting farther from the organ feel/vibe... okay if you're looking for the authentic sounds but not so much the authentic experience). But 7x would allow you to have the actual full 60-key range of the clavinet, the full 64-key range of the Wurli, more usable real estate for "dual manual" organ splits, and more Piano/Rhodes range. But yeah, that's a much pricier way to go than just getting a Mojo 61, unless maybe you happen to already own one of those boards anyway.
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#2884190 - 10/10/17 06:48 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Quinn]
jimkost2002 Online   content
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I’d like to add a dissenting opinion, if I may:

A crucial feature missing on all Crumars is the 11-pin Leslie socket.... you can get their adaptor or use a trek, but.....

Also, as to essential aspects like Keyclick, percussion, overdrive:

Mojo is Ok with all, but I find Legend holds up better over time in real world situations than Mojo....although many folks say it’s “taste”. Digtal simulations all fall short of “the real thing” .... overdrive is tricky ....a little goes a long way, unless you are playing in a Rock context, then you need real tube saturation, but, imho, thats the key in jazz too.

Yes, the action IS stiffer......but not prohibitively so...

As an Electro Killer the Mojo 61 is awesome, as a single manual clone, moderately so.

Also, as Jason mentions, there are build quality issues with Mojo.... I had to return 2 dual mauals as well.....
That MAY be a transport issue from Italy to USA....
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#2884213 - 10/10/17 08:16 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: jimkost2002]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Would you say the same thing about a dual manual?

I personally find the Legend Live to be a much more enjoyable playing experience and connection to the instrument than the dual manual Mojo classic or the DMC-122 controller.
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#2884221 - 10/10/17 08:51 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: jeffinpghpa]
tfort Offline
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Very interesting comparison.

Has anyone compared the MIDI implementation on both the Mojo 61 and the Legend Solo? I'm thinking of getting one of these two boards for home use as an interface to GarageBand and Logic, and to complement an 88-key hammer action board for non-piano sounds for live use.

I'd also like to consider using the smaller/lighter board by itself on some gigs, possibly driving MainStage.

I'm really curious to see what the upcoming Mojo/GSi product is going to be.

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#2884223 - 10/10/17 09:01 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Quinn]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I have a dual manual Mojo (which I love) and was looking for an opportunity to play a Legend to make a final decision on a single manual organ.


That reminds me of something I forgot to mention: I also have an original Mojo, and I was really surprised at how much better the 61 sounded. I expected it only to be a slight improvement, but it's in a whole different league.
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#2884225 - 10/10/17 09:09 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: jimkost2002]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
As an Electro Killer the Mojo 61 is awesome

Well... maybe for organ, clav, EP. Not for acoustic piano, real-time effects control, availability of 73 keys, travel weight, splits/layers, user presets, custom sample loading, additional instruments (mellotrons and other vintage keys, strings/brass/winds, etc.). So it can potentially kill the Electro only as long as you only need the sounds/functionalities where they overlap, An NE5D+Gemini could probably get you all of it, albeit at a price. (And presumably a trade-off in action.)
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#2884226 - 10/10/17 09:10 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
That reminds me of something I forgot to mention: I also have an original Mojo, and I was really surprised at how much better the 61 sounded. I expected it only to be a slight improvement, but it's in a whole different league.

What did I miss? I thought that, as long as the latest software is installed, the Mojo, Mojo 61, and Gemini organs should all sound identical, no?
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#2884228 - 10/10/17 09:15 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AnotherScott]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Really, although obviously pricier, I think a Gemini paired with a 7x has nice advantages over the Mojo61, if the 7x has the proper controls and MIDI implementation.


Yeah, that's a tough call. For me the deciding factor is that I just like simplicity too much, and dealing with a module is more of a drag than I want to deal with. My dream board at this point would be a bitimbral Mojo 73, but I have been told by a reliable source not to hold my breath for that one.
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#2884229 - 10/10/17 09:15 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Quinn]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
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Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
And thanks, Joe, for the hang!
My pleasure! It was great to have you and return the favor for the NOKCFH last spring. Sorry again that I didn't bake cookies, though. wink

I love this comparison. You mentioned some of these items while you were trying both, but I didn't realized you had covered so much ground. grin

I will concur very strongly on a couple of points FKS made. First, the Mojo action is much more "buttery" than the Legend. The Legend reminds me a little of the action on my Electro 2 while the Mojo reminds me of my A-100. Second, the first time I noticed the key click on the Legend, I felt like it was "disconnected" from the organ tone. That was one of those things that was an immediate turn off.

Also, chicken heads!

Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
FunkKeyStuff, wow great review! Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts. I've been in a holding pattern on whether to get a Mojo 61 or Legend Solo. I have a dual manual Mojo (which I love) and was looking for an opportunity to play a Legend to make a final decision on a single manual organ. You're review is very helpful.
Too bad, we would have invited you over to try both together! wink

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#2884232 - 10/10/17 09:33 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AnotherScott]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
That reminds me of something I forgot to mention: I also have an original Mojo, and I was really surprised at how much better the 61 sounded. I expected it only to be a slight improvement, but it's in a whole different league.

What did I miss? I thought that, as long as the latest software is installed, the Mojo, Mojo 61, and Gemini organs should all sound identical, no?


I have both dual Mojo and Mojo 61, but I've never bothered to set them up identically. Different organs for different musical needs, etc. They both sound great to me. The hardware is different though - maybe I should set them up the same to A/B them.

Any reliability problems I have ever heard about were for the dual Manual, which is built completely differently than the Mojo 61. The dual has a PC running stripped down Windows and VB3-2. They seem to be sensitive to power in some cases, and the very early builds were questionable (talking 5 years ago by now.)

Mojo 61 runs its code in DSP hardware like HX3 and Legend. Mine has glitched and frozen exactly once, on a 100+ degree day in full sun after several sets - and my brand new Nord Stage 2 did the same thing minutes later.
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#2884235 - 10/10/17 09:52 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Really, although obviously pricier, I think a Gemini paired with a 7x has nice advantages over the Mojo61, if the 7x has the proper controls and MIDI implementation.


Yeah, that's a tough call. For me the deciding factor is that I just like simplicity too much, and dealing with a module is more of a drag than I want to deal with.

I can relate to that. My thought would be to "permanently" velcro the Gemini to the 7x, leave the MIDI cable attached (90 degree cables to prevent damage), basically do as much as possible to minimize added setup/breakdown time. Though than you'd also need a carrying case that could accommodate.
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#2884236 - 10/10/17 09:55 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
bill bosco Offline
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Registered: 01/20/14
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too bad there isn't any way to retro fit the newer DSP board
into the mojo to replace the PC based sound engine ,
or is there ?

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#2884251 - 10/10/17 11:07 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: bill bosco]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: bill bosco
too bad there isn't any way to retro fit the newer DSP board
into the mojo to replace the PC based sound engine ,
or is there ?


I suspect the factory will do this at some point, with a Mojo 2 - (warning:wishlist!) with a new flat top, and 3 or 4 sets of drawbars.
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#2884255 - 10/10/17 11:17 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AnotherScott]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

I was wondering why the Mojo is as heavy as it is.


Crumar uses a stout steel chassis. I suspect some of the others are aluminum.
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#2884257 - 10/10/17 11:23 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: jimkost2002]
OB Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/25/09
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Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
As an Electro Killer the Mojo 61 is awesome, as a single manual clone, moderately so.


Eh. I'd almost agree with you if it wasn't for the Nord Sound Library. This is the silver bullet that keeps the Electro viable. Nord really needs to seriously step up their tonewheel organ game, but the Nord Sound Library is deep and solid.

Rather than an Electro killer, I would say the Mojo 61 really is an Sk1 killer. All of the core functions that an Sk1 does, the Mojo does infinitely better, from sound to ergonomics, and it even comes in a better price point to boot. All of the sounds on the Mojo are much better than Sk1 counterparts. The Leslie sim is actually usable. The C/V is best in class. I think the only place the Sk1 edges out the Mojo is that it's available in a 73, and you can layer the extra voices. I never found the Hammond extra voices to be useful, and I was coming of a 61 so the switch to a Mojo was a no-brainer for me.

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#2884263 - 10/10/17 11:37 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: OB Dave]
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Originally Posted By: OB Grave
I think the only place the Sk1 edges out the Mojo is that it's available in a 73, and you can layer the extra voices. I never found the Hammond extra voices to be useful

There are some nice extra voices available for it--it's not a Nord-competitive library, but it does give you a bunch of other useful sounds beyond the Mojo's basics. Though the sounds the Mojo has, it does better. Another Hammond advantage would be in its 3-zone MIDI functionality, which allows you easily enhance its sound selection with a laptop/module/iPhone/iPad. And 100 user presets, which can include MIDI zoning. program changes, etc.
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#2884268 - 10/10/17 11:51 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: OB Dave]
MathOfInsects Online   content
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Originally Posted By: OB Grave
Eh. I'd almost agree with you if it wasn't for the Nord Sound Library. This is the silver bullet that keeps the Electro viable. Nord really needs to seriously step up their tonewheel organ game, but the Nord Sound Library is deep and solid.


The Sample library is bad-ass. And I have to say: every time I have quibbles about the NE5D organ sound compared to other clones, I find an adjustment that moves it back into the "competitive" slot again. (In other words, the problem is usually me.) It's not immediately as beefy as even my VK-8 was, but a little seasoning at the top of drawbar-pull helps that along. Switching to the 122-close has helped, as has upping key click and slowing down the rate of change for the hi speaker. (I left the low one as is, so they can phase as they switch.) It would be better with my Vent II, but not better enough to bother with the additional signal-chain implications.

Having said that, near as I can tell, the NS3 Compact is my dream board in terms of wishlist items. So watch for my NE5D in the Garage Sale section soon enough...
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#2884303 - 10/10/17 02:49 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bone Muskeleton
You mentioned some of these items while you were trying both, but I didn't realized you had covered so much ground.


I was having Beth distract you with jokes while I poked around under the hood. A jazz chord! grin
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#2884324 - 10/10/17 06:43 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
bill bosco Offline
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steel is cheaper , aluminum is stiffer

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#2884327 - 10/10/17 06:58 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
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I agree with opinion that the Mojo 61 is superior to its rivals. The organ sound combined with its C3 is excellent (I favor its 1965 B3 model) . The action really outpaces the other brands and makes a big difference. The Rhodes is amazing!!! It's weak spot might be the acoustic piano samples, they do not move as quickly as the other modeled sounds do.
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#2884338 - 10/10/17 08:47 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
It's weak spot might be the acoustic piano samples, they do not move as quickly as the other modeled sounds do.


I thought they fixed that for you. wink
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#2884345 - 10/10/17 10:59 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: davedoerfler]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: count doerflera
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
It's weak spot might be the acoustic piano samples, they do not move as quickly as the other modeled sounds do.


I thought they fixed that for you. wink


The AP is better since they trimmed the start point, but it is still unsatisfying to play. When I try to dig in it doesn't respond, unlike the Rhodes, Wurli, and clav.
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#2884384 - 10/11/17 07:33 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Mitch Towne Offline
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Registered: 01/26/07
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The Mojo C3 chorus is the best in the business!

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#2884386 - 10/11/17 07:41 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
AndreaAgnoletto Offline
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Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: matted stump
Originally Posted By: count doerflera
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
It's weak spot might be the acoustic piano samples, they do not move as quickly as the other modeled sounds do.


I thought they fixed that for you. wink


The AP is better since they trimmed the start point, but it is still unsatisfying to play. When I try to dig in it doesn't respond, unlike the Rhodes, Wurli, and clav.


This makes me happy! This tells me that we are in the right way with physical modeling... you, as customer, easily recognize how better is this kind of approach in sound design VS sampling. Indeed Rhodes, Wurly and Clav on Mojo61 are modeled, AP is sampled. We will improve cool


Edited by AndreaAgnoletto (10/11/17 08:48 AM)
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#2884394 - 10/11/17 08:17 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AndreaAgnoletto]
drawback Offline
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Originally Posted By: AndreaAgnoletto
This makes me happy! This tells me that we are in the right way with physical modeling... you, as customer, easily recognize how better is this kind of approach in sound designed VS sampling. Indeed Rhodes, Wurly and Clav on Mojo61 are modeled, AP is sampled. We will improve cool


I've been waiting to hear this!! twothumbs cheers cool
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#2884395 - 10/11/17 08:19 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AndreaAgnoletto]
Kurt W Offline
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Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 204
Having both a Mojo 61 and a Legend Live I must say I find the tone excellent on both. To me it boils down to ergonomics, number of drawbars and Leslie interface. I am often using a Leslie 3300, sometimes a Ventilator cabled for the 11 pins Leslie interface, the lack of this on the Mojo is annoying. Have been thinking about switching the Mojo with a Legend Solo. Very confusing with just a single set of drawbars when playing dual manual organ from a bottom controller/piano. Solving this with an Ocean Beach drawbar controller. Give a little plus to the Legend leslie sim, maybe the C3 on the Mojo is slightly more authentic. Marginal differences, hard for me to prefer one above the other.

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#2884398 - 10/11/17 08:42 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AndreaAgnoletto]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: AndreaAgnoletto
AP is sampled. We will improve cool
IMHO the sustain pedal feature is too wet; the Harp control does little to alleviate it, otherwise it is not that bad but definitely the weakest of all of the instruments in the Gemini. Why wasn't the AP start point trim not moved to the Gemini in the latest update?
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#2884430 - 10/11/17 10:53 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AndreaAgnoletto]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
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Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
Originally Posted By: Bone Muskeleton
You mentioned some of these items while you were trying both, but I didn't realized you had covered so much ground.


I was having Beth distract you with jokes while I poked around under the hood. A jazz chord! grin
roll

Originally Posted By: AndreaAgnoletto
This makes me happy! This tells me that we are in the right way with physical modeling... you, as customer, easily recognize how better is this kind of approach in sound design VS sampling. Indeed Rhodes, Wurly and Clav on Mojo61 are modeled, AP is sampled. We will improve cool
love

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#2884434 - 10/11/17 11:12 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AndreaAgnoletto]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: AndreaAgnoletto

This makes me happy! This tells me that we are in the right way with physical modeling... you, as customer, easily recognize how better is this kind of approach in sound design VS sampling. Indeed Rhodes, Wurly and Clav on Mojo61 are modeled, AP is sampled. We will improve cool


Agree absolutely. Ever since back in the infant days of modelling-like behavior with my Roland MKS-20, modelled instruments have always impressed me with an instant player connection. While their authenticity has not always been the best, it gets better every day (see Pianoteq.)
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#2884441 - 10/11/17 11:45 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Joe P Offline
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Does the Mojo have user slots and if so how many and to what extent (like can you save an EP+ Chorus and an EP+Reverb etc..)?

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#2884442 - 10/11/17 11:58 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Joe P]
Mitch Towne Offline
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Yes it does. I don't recall how many but at least 10. Each slot is loadable via the WIFI editor. Each slot saves the entire set up (organ, EPs).

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#2884443 - 10/11/17 12:01 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Mitch Towne]
Joe P Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mitch Towne
Yes it does. I don't recall how many but at least 10. Each slot is loadable via the WIFI editor. Each slot saves the entire set up (organ, EPs).


Thanks, Mitch. I saw something called "Snapshots" in the PDF manual, accessed via the editor, maybe that's it.

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#2884448 - 10/11/17 12:23 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Joe P]
mate stubb Offline
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Yes, Snapshots are a complete state of the instrument, minus things like drawbars which are controlled directly via the panel.
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#2884474 - 10/11/17 01:21 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Joe P Offline
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Originally Posted By: matted stump
Yes, Snapshots are a complete state of the instrument, minus things like drawbars which are controlled directly via the panel.


Thanks, and there are only 8 of them. Is that correct?

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#2884481 - 10/11/17 01:49 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Joe P]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe P
Originally Posted By: matted stump
Yes, Snapshots are a complete state of the instrument, minus things like drawbars which are controlled directly via the panel.


Thanks, and there are only 8 of them. Is that correct?


Yes.
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#2884908 - 10/13/17 05:19 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1756
The more time I spend evaluating Hammond clones, the more I realize one thing -

Everyone seeks something different. Almost no two people hear things the same or do things the same way.

After all the positive feedback and even meeting Guido and Andrea at NAMM , I lusted for a Crumar Mojo for many years. At NAMM I barely got a chance to hear what it could do.

In May of this year I got my hands on a Mojo 61.

I really wanted this to work out for me, but after having a Numa for many years and recently an HX3 I could not get the Mojo to give me what I needed.

I have already posted as to why that was back when I had the Mojo. I also thought that having the pianos would be a decider for me, but that was also not the case.

The big reason is I am just used to hearing something else.

As far as the Key B is concerned I really like the bass capabilities and the leslie sim. I think the CV is also outstanding on this....as is the new overdrive. As far as key click, all of the digital stuff sounds artificial to me and I don't even like too much click on a real console.

Right now my clone is an HX3 with a Hammond XK2 controller. Great key feel on the Hammond, and I have the HX3 CV about 98 percent dialed in.I think they still need to address the top 2 or 3 notes on 888000000 3rd harmonic. Otherwise so far so good.

In the future I will have a Key B or we will see what happens if Crumar does an update.

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#2884936 - 10/13/17 09:04 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
teashea Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
Very interesting comments on these two great clones. I have had a Legend and Legend Live for a while and just received a Mojo. Actually t was my second Mojo. First one was DOA and it took me a few weeks to decide to try again. This new Mojo is excellent. The build quality is very good - about as good as a Legend. The sounds seem very close to me. A little different but I cannot say one is better than another.

I do not hear any latency in the Mojo, which was an issue mentioned by Jim A in his comments. The Leslie simulations are very comparable. I cannot really tell a difference between them. I can tell a difference between these digital simulations and my 3300. However I think that much of this difference has to do with the interaction with room acoustics and the actual rotational swirling of the sounds.

The quality of the drawbars on the Mojo is very good. They seem even more substantial than other clones, including the Legend and XK5.

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#2884937 - 10/13/17 09:17 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: teashea]
davedoerfler Offline
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welcome to the forum. thanks for your insight. thu
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#2884953 - 10/14/17 03:38 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: davedoerfler]
sosho Offline
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Loc: germany
I think the mojo might have some small latency . But I only had the feeling in the first seconds after having played a hammond sk 1 ( it was apparently broken , produced hanging notes ) in a store . Brain adjusts immediately , no problem for me. The viscount legend in the store had some problems, too. Halfmoon had a contact problem , tremolo only worked slightly bending it. The C/V dial was not showing the setting you were hearing.
I really liked the percussion on the viscount and that you can tweak it with dials . On YouTube videos I thought it sounded a bit synthetic but I did not have that impression in the store . And I like the soft/ normal switch . The mojo does not seem to have that (?) . Both sounded and felt good . I did not find the EP on the mojo , how do you dial that in ?

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#2884962 - 10/14/17 05:12 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: sosho]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
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Originally Posted By: sosho
I did not find the EP on the mojo , how do you dial that in ?
Mojo or Mojo 61? They are different. On the 61 you change the Type (far right) to EP and then switch between them using the A/B preset buttons on either side of the drawbars (Left to right they are Rhodes, Wurly, Clav, and acoustic piano).

I'm sure whatever EPs are in the original Mojo are documented in the manual as well.

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#2884970 - 10/14/17 07:05 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
Al Quinn Offline
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FWIW, I don't feel any latency with my dual manual Mojo. I think I'm pretty sensitive to latency, but apparently not as much as others.
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#2884976 - 10/14/17 07:54 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
sosho Offline
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Registered: 05/02/08
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Loc: germany
Originally Posted By: Bone Muskeleton
Originally Posted By: sosho
I did not find the EP on the mojo , how do you dial that in ?
Mojo or Mojo 61?

Sorry , forgot to mention , in the store they only had the original mojo dual manual . That one did already have the updated keybed which does feel nice.


Edited by sosho (10/14/17 07:56 AM)

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#2885021 - 10/14/17 01:13 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: sosho]
Jazz+ Offline
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The modeled sounds in the mojo 61 do not suffer from latency, they are very quick to respond. You can run at high speed. The acoustic piano is its only non-modeled sound, it is sample based, and it feels late when I play it. It has been said that there will be an update for it. Hopefully it will become modeled too.


Edited by Jazz+ (10/14/17 03:32 PM)
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#2885027 - 10/14/17 02:19 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
tfort Offline
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Registered: 05/06/16
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I would think modelling an acoustic piano is far more difficult than modelling Rhodes, Wurli, etc. Modartt and Roland have been working on it for years and still there are people who don't like the sound.

Maybe if Guido and Andrea focused on modelling a piano solely for live use, intended to sacrifice some harmonic complexity to be able to cut through a mix better, it would be easier to get a decent one done quickly and with relatively low computer resources required.

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#2885029 - 10/14/17 02:31 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: tfort]
aellison62 Offline
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Isn’t Roland’s supernatural piano modeled?
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#2885058 - 10/14/17 05:35 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: aellison62]
tfort Offline
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Roland doesn’t really try to clarify the technology behind its piano engines, but the way I think of it is that SuperNatural refers to modelling built on top of samples, while their V-Piano is more fully modelled.

My original point, though, is that Roland and Modartt’s modelled pianos are considered the best around at the moment, and still many seem to prefer the big sampled piano libraries. It may be a long while, then, for Guido and Andrea to come out with a very good modelled acoustic piano sound. I hope they have an innovative approach and are coding geniuses so the new Mojo73 has a great modelled AP. But logic would dictate we should keep our expectations low and hope for a well-modelled “live” piano rather than something to compete with Pianoteq and the V-Piano.

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#2885064 - 10/14/17 05:57 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: tfort]
OB Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/25/09
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Loc: San Diego CA, US
The line between modeled and sampled is so blurry as to be meaningless. I honestly don't get why people get so hung up on the distinction.

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#2885104 - 10/15/17 01:07 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: tfort]
TomKittel Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 459
Originally Posted By: tfort
My original point, though, is that Roland and Modartt’s modelled pianos are considered the best around at the moment, and still many seem to prefer the big sampled piano libraries.


OT: I prefer Pianoteq 6 to any sampled piano library. It was a real game changer for me.

JMTC. Back to topic. ;-)

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#2885117 - 10/15/17 06:07 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: TomKittel]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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What is Mojo73? Is that their announcement?
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#2885120 - 10/15/17 06:19 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: jeffinpghpa]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeffinpghpa
What is Mojo73? Is that their announcement?
No, just some including FKS' wish.

If anyone would suddenly make a killer modeled acoustic piano, it would be Guido.

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#2885137 - 10/15/17 08:29 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
ap297 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/14
Posts: 33
My wish; 76 or 88 note with pitch and mod wheels. Maybe based off the DMC-122 form factor. The ultimate "take one board to the gig solution". Would sell like hotcakes!

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#2885141 - 10/15/17 08:55 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: ap297]
Cybersoniq Offline
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Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: ap297
My wish; 76 or 88 note with pitch and mod wheels. Maybe based off the DMC-122 form factor. The ultimate "take one board to the gig solution". Would sell like hotcakes!

Well we will just have to standby for the news from GSI:
https://www.facebook.com/GenuineSoundwar...e=3&theater

With the combo 73-key/waterfall key form factor competition heating up with the Vox Continental ($2199) and the Roland VR-730 ($1499)...maybe a DMC-73/Mojo 73 can slide in between in price with its top class tone-wheel organ models/rotary sim and growing stable of modeled and sampled-based instruments. What does Guido have cooking in the lab??? rockit


Edited by Cybersoniq (10/15/17 08:58 AM)

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#2885144 - 10/15/17 09:04 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Cybersoniq]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Cybersoniq
With the combo 73-key/waterfall key form factor competition heating up with the Vox Continental ($2199) and the Roland VR-730 ($1499)

there's also this...
http://www.dexibell.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=80
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#2885151 - 10/15/17 10:02 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AnotherScott]
Cybersoniq Offline
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Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Cybersoniq
With the combo 73-key/waterfall key form factor competition heating up with the Vox Continental ($2199) and the Roland VR-730 ($1499)

there's also this...
http://www.dexibell.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=80

Thanks AS! Lost this on the latest radar. This certainly fits the bill & Hoedown covers too(see at 3:30):



Edited by Cybersoniq (10/15/17 11:49 AM)

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#2885161 - 10/15/17 10:56 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Cybersoniq]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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#2885162 - 10/15/17 11:10 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Cybersoniq]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Yeah, questions about sound quality and action aside (big caveat there, yes), the J7 functionality seems to beat the Roland and Vox offerings overall, especially as a "single board" solution. Better split/layer functionality, better custom patch recall, better MIDI implementation, motorized faders, ability to load custom samples. Not perfect... no pitch/mod wheels, no aftertouch. And while it has a good deal of MIDI flexibility, there doesn't appear to be a way to include user-defined MIDI Program Changes in the user presets, though in theory, at least that might be addressable in a software update. Personally, it would probably be my pick of the three, at least on paper. Though also the most expensive of the three, approaching the price of the NE5D, which I really like despite some obvious limitations.
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#2885241 - 10/16/17 02:58 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Cybersoniq]
Nadroj Offline
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Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 959
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Originally Posted By: Cybersoniq
Originally Posted By: ap297
My wish; 76 or 88 note with pitch and mod wheels. Maybe based off the DMC-122 form factor. The ultimate "take one board to the gig solution". Would sell like hotcakes!

Well we will just have to standby for the news from GSI:
https://www.facebook.com/GenuineSoundwar...e=3&theater

With the combo 73-key/waterfall key form factor competition heating up with the Vox Continental ($2199) and the Roland VR-730 ($1499)...maybe a DMC-73/Mojo 73 can slide in between in price with its top class tone-wheel organ models/rotary sim and growing stable of modeled and sampled-based instruments. What does Guido have cooking in the lab??? rockit


I assumed this was just the lower manual for the MOJO 61. Am I way wrong?
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#2885244 - 10/16/17 03:17 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Nadroj]
Kurt W Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 204
Originally Posted By: Nadroj


I assumed this was just the lower manual for the MOJO 61. Am I way wrong?

Yes; «We'll be releasing something new by the end of this year... What will it be?... :)»

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#2885252 - 10/16/17 05:01 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Kurt W]
Spider76 Offline
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Registered: 08/01/13
Posts: 358
My bet is either a single-manual DMC, or a Mojo2 based on DMC-Mojo61 DSP technology.

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#2885264 - 10/16/17 06:40 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Spider76]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
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Originally Posted By: Spider76
My bet is either a single-manual DMC, or a Mojo2 based on DMC-Mojo61 DSP technology.


I hope for Mojo-61 mkII w/ twice the DSP power for 4 channel-multi-timbrality (also over MIDI), 2 sets of drawbars (1 each for upper and lower) plus 2 drawbars for the pedals and more than 2 (ideally 12) user-programmable drawbar-preset locations for upper as also lower.
The preset system for the non-organ sounds should be individually accessable.

I`d wish to get out dual manual organ & pedals,- and 1 additional instrument (p.ex. Rhodes) being triggered via MIDI in addition and when not using MIDI for additional instruments, trigger ´em local from upper or lower manual should be a user selectable option.
When those features include user selectable layering of additional instruments w/ upper- or lower manual organ, that would be ice on the cake.

A.C.

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#2885279 - 10/16/17 07:47 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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i'm going to do this once, and only once.

Originally Posted By: Spider76
My bet is either a single-manual DMC, or a Mojo2 based on DMC-Mojo61 DSP technology.

No, and no.

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
I hope for Mojo-61 mkII w/ twice the DSP power (etc etc)

That's not it either.

To be clear - I do not mean that none of these are possible future products. I'm just saying none of them are the impending product about which the Crumar guys are currently teasing.

dB
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#2885282 - 10/16/17 08:14 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Dave Bryce]
Spider76 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/01/13
Posts: 358
This is mean, Dave.
Why crush so cruelly our humble hopes and dreams?

deadhorse roll

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#2885286 - 10/16/17 08:19 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Dave Bryce]
tfort Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/16
Posts: 99
Bummer.

Will it announced before December?

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#2885290 - 10/16/17 08:34 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Dave Bryce]
drawback Offline
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Originally Posted By: Grave Bryce
i'm going to do this once, and only once.

Originally Posted By: Spider76
My bet is either a single-manual DMC, or a Mojo2 based on DMC-Mojo61 DSP technology.

No, and no.

Originally Posted By: Al Coda
I hope for Mojo-61 mkII w/ twice the DSP power (etc etc)

That's not it either.

To be clear - I do not mean that none of these are possible future products. I'm just saying none of them are the impending product about which the Crumar guys are currently teasing.

dB


Thank you, dB!

From what I've been reading I'm expecting an improvement - perhaps a modeled - acoustic piano for the Mojo61. Then perhaps if that's in the wind, a GSI/Crumar piano is in the works.

I'd be happy with them finishing up the Clavinet, but hey, I'm in the minority.

laugh
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#2885394 - 10/16/17 04:42 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: drawback]
Jazz+ Offline
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Model the AP and the mojo 61 would be near perfection. Maybe add a amplitude scale that could adjust the level of the organ's highest notes....
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#2885395 - 10/16/17 04:48 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Model the AP and the mojo 6 would be near perfection.

It's easy to say, but the best modeling is Roland V and Pianoteq... and not everyone agrees that these sound better (or even as good) as some of the sampled pianos, though there does seem to be a good consensus that they play very naturally, regardless of what you think of how they sound. Bottom line: modeling a piano is tricky.
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#2885399 - 10/16/17 05:16 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AnotherScott]
Jazz+ Offline
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How they play is what is important. Modeled pianos sound fine live and tend to behave (respond) more realistically.
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#2885410 - 10/16/17 06:23 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Spider76]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Spider76
This is mean, Dave.
Why crush so cruelly our humble hopes and dreams?

deadhorse roll

hitt evil Python grin

dB

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#2885413 - 10/16/17 06:46 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Dave Bryce]
LX88 Offline
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I sat in on a Viscount single manual last night.... the new one, the Key B Live 61 or whatever it is called.

Right off the bat the keybed felt strange. It actually felt stiffer
than my Numa 1 or what I remember the Mojo 61 felt like.

I couldn't get a good sound out of it. I was literally in a dark space and couldn't read all the knobs... and there were many of them.

I had a much easier time when the guy had the Numa 2. I remember thinking that was the best keybed I ever played and I was able to get a good sound out of it fairly easily.

I liked the Legend dual manual when I demoed it, but I was at a loss as to what to do to get this 61 to sound good and play easily.

If you get the new Key B/ Viscount 61 , try to play the one you are going to buy. This one had extremely stiff action, that's all I can tell you....


Edited by LX88 (10/16/17 06:47 PM)

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#2885414 - 10/16/17 06:48 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: drawback]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: clawback
I'd be happy with them finishing up the Clavinet, but hey, I'm in the minority.


rimshot
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#2885440 - 10/16/17 11:28 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: tfort]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: tfort
I would think modelling an acoustic piano is far more difficult than modelling Rhodes, Wurli, etc. Modartt and Roland have been working on it for years and still there are people who don't like the sound.

Maybe if Guido and Andrea focused on modelling a piano solely for live use, intended to sacrifice some harmonic complexity to be able to cut through a mix better, it would be easier to get a decent one done quickly and with relatively low computer resources required.


I think Guido has already done some work writing modelled piano code. If I recall correctly, he did a CP-70/80 VST which was 100% modelled. I thought it sounded a lot like a CP, and it played nicely.
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#2885442 - 10/17/17 01:55 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
sosho Offline
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The current CP 70 in the GSI hardware appears to be PM.description on the GSI website " Electric Baby Grand piano

This is a simulation of a Yamaha CP-70, it offers full polyphony (73 notes) and is based partly on the physical modeling techniques with the use of sampled attack transients. While, in this case, realism is more of a compromise, playability is still a big plus. This instrument, being simulated, offers a wide dynamic range, sympathetic resonance, realistic noises and artifacts, and a rich frequency response.

My bet would also be a modeled Piano , hopefully 76 keys available with a better action than the nord HP . The dexibell 76 key model did not feel as strange as the nord HP as far as I remember

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#2885444 - 10/17/17 02:49 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: sosho]
Six-string-man Offline
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I'm desperately hoping for a 73 key single manual Mojo, with two sets of drawbars, bi-timbrality, an effects loop, and 11 pin Leslie out.

I would be all over that.
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#2885460 - 10/17/17 06:29 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Six-string-man]
Spider76 Offline
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I think we're going a bit off topic...
wink


Edited by Spider76 (10/17/17 08:14 AM)

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#2885464 - 10/17/17 06:53 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Spider76]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: Spider76
I think we're going to bit off topic...
wink
That's how we roll here .....
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#2885615 - 10/18/17 04:56 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Delaware Dave]
chelsea4023 Offline
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Hi FunkKey Stuff,

Sorry to hear you are leaving the Key B family, but at least you have found a clone that ticks all the boxes for you.

I wanted to mention that I had read a post on the Key B Facebook Forum regarding the stiff keyboard action. One member posted to say that with time and regular playing, the action softened. How true that is, I cannot say but for me personally I don't have a problem with my Legend Live (although it is the two manual model).

I also read posts from Lars Hamre and Tom Erik Skram (Newtone) who created the organ sounds for the Legend and legend Live and Elvio Previatti (the man who brought the Key B organs to the world) saying that free software updates would be provided in the near future to cover anything from new organ sounds to midi functions.

Quote from Elvio, " Dear, we are redoing the clones inside the Legend. They will are availables on the next release very soon. Thank you. Please.. don't ask when because there are lot of modifies so we are debugging it and we need of time to be sure that everything works in good way".

And another quote from Elvio,

"Dear, we are modifying the MIDI In, Out and USB. these modifies will are availables on the next release very soon. About the Analog In noise I'll test it. Regards".

I think this will show Forum members that the team responsible behind the Viscount Key B organs are working pro-actively to provide support to their products.

Everybody's requirements are different from a keyboard. It could come down to the actual style of music they play.

For me personally, I have always wanted a Hammond clone. I never wanted a real Hammond, in the same way I would never want a classic car. Too much hassle, too many complications !!
I did not care what clone I bought, as long as it sounded reasonably like a Hammond. Fortunately the Viscount Key B fits the bill !!

And if I'm being totally honest (I expect some crticism for my next comment) some of the posts I am reading (on both this and the Key B Forums) make we wonder why some people bought their Key B organs in the first place. Did they not try them out before purchasing them ?

Although I am not a pro player,since I set up my Viscount Key B Legend Live, I have been going through the manual and trying all the features and sounds out and it's honestly been Fun with a capital 'F'.

Chris

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#2885621 - 10/18/17 05:26 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
analogholic Offline
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Posts: 800
Thanks a lot for the info Chris.
Good to know that they are still working to improve the sound and functions even further.
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#2885627 - 10/18/17 05:59 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: analogholic]
chelsea4023 Offline
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Hi,
Just to clarify a point.
The last couple of comments I made were not aimed at FunkKey Stuff.
I fully understand his reasons for changing.
I only hope that once he's changed to a Mojo 61, Viscount don't release new clone sounds and changes to features that would have satisfied his requirements (after all, Key B legend products are currently on version 1.0 software).
Chris

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#2885643 - 10/18/17 06:59 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
Barryjam Offline
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Chelsea,

Many players are unable to audition clones before buying, let alone being able to compare clones side by side.
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#2885646 - 10/18/17 07:06 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
bill bosco Offline
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Registered: 01/20/14
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great to hear they are already working on updates , i have a few issues , not many, i'd like addressed .some leslie sim tweaks
( as in the mic distance on the rock setting ) . i wish there was
some way to adjust the trigger point as it's a little too high for my liking . it just doesn't feel very "natural" under my
fingers is the only way i can describe it . it works for rabid
fire staccato riffs but i think they can tone it down a bit

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#2885688 - 10/18/17 08:45 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Delaware Dave]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
Originally Posted By: Spider76
I think we're going to bit off topic...
wink
That's how we roll here .....


QFT. I am personally responsible for quite a bit of that. blush
Anyway, back to regularly scheduled programming.
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#2885713 - 10/18/17 09:44 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: chelsea4023
I also read posts from Lars Hamre and Tom Erik Skram (Newtone) who created the organ sounds for the Legend and legend Live and Elvio Previatti (the man who brought the Key B organs to the world) saying that free software updates would be provided in the near future to cover anything from new organ sounds to midi functions.
Yes, Elvio is notorious for actively updating keyboards like the Voce Key5 (only 9 made); the Numa organ and Numa organ 2

http://www.harmonycentral.com/reviews/product/voce-key-5/425362

excerpt: -> ".. But the maker of this organ, maestro Elvio Previati told me he is working on new eproms with some different settings and he will send me those chips!.." Hmmm, guess that never happened...

How about the Numa organ upgrades, how many were there, one? then when the organ upgrade didn't work where did you go to get help? oops, nobody home. KeyB, , look at the website:

http://www.keyborgan.com/

still says coming soon; not updated since 2013. Sound like someone you can trust 5 years from now when you have issues with your keyboard....

Their support page? a couple of PDF's....

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#2885780 - 10/18/17 06:06 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Delaware Dave]
chelsea4023 Offline
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Registered: 08/25/14
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Hi,

Just wanted to pick up on a couple of points Delaware Dave has mentioned.

Although I cannot comment on the Voce Key 5, I did actually purchase a Studiologic Numa2 Organ from a shop in Denmark Street, London (Wunjo Guitars I think). I was happy with the sound, it was built like a tank and was reasonably priced £800ish U.K. The leslie sim was really good.
I had a problem with the leslie switch and contacted the U.K. Distibutors MSL Professional in Reading (just West of London). One of their sales managers was travelling to London the following morning, and brought a brand new boxed Numa 2 organ to my home and replaced it with the one I had. He helped me unbox and set up the new organ, test it and make sure it was working o.k. before heading into London for a meeting.
I downloaded some software from the studiologic website that gave me new organ clones and some general improvements to the working of the Numa 2.
I have given a link to the website.
http://studiologic-music.com/products/numa_organ2/#downloads

I eventually sold the Numa 2 as I wanted to get a two manual organ.

There is no defense of Elvio's poorly updated Website for the Key B organs, although he does have a working download page with manuals and updates for his Key B organs.
http://www.keyborgan.com/support/

Viscount(an Italian Classical organ company)have signed a deal with Elvio to produce and manufacture the new range of organs. Thus the name Viscount Key B Legend and Viscount Key B Legend Live.
On a personal level, I think this is a fantastic merger that finally brings the Key B organ to the world stage, at such a low price I never expected Viscount could produce them for.

There is a website on Facebook for the Viscount Key B organs.
https://www.facebook.com/KeyBLegend/

There is also a users group for the new organs which is very active.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1220600077994273/

I fully understand Dave's comments regarding Elvio, of which several are justified.
I do think that now Viscount have taken over the manufacture and distribution side, hopefully it will allow Elvio and the Newtone team to concentrate on producing firmware updates, and research and development.

Chris

p.s. If there are no Firmware updates on these organs whatsoever, it would not be a great concern to me.
I had to travel to Northampton to view the organs (130 mile round trip) and was so impressed I purchased one.


Edited by chelsea4023 (10/18/17 06:24 PM)
Edit Reason: addition

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#2885845 - 10/19/17 06:17 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
Delaware Dave Offline
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I would love to see KeyB be successful. And perhaps now that Elvio appears to be focused on the design/manufacture side and hopefully has exited the marketing arena there may be a chance and I wish them well. The layout of the keyboard started with his Voce Key5 days; which was also picked up by Diversi and marketed as the DV100:

http://voceinc.com/datasheet.html

He just has no business in the marketing side and as long as he stays away and lets the people with expertise market the product it has a chance of successful. Again, I wish him well; but his track record of 15 years would dictate a market failure and IMO he has to earn back the respect he's lost in the marketing arena over the past 15 years.


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#2885923 - 10/19/17 10:24 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Delaware Dave]
Spider76 Offline
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Well, Viscount is the undisputed leader in the electronic church organ market. They provide their worldwide distribution, service and marketing network.
What I'm not sure of, is if they actually build the Legend and provide quality control, so basically Elvio designs the instrument and the sound engine, and everything else is left to Viscount. I strongly hope so.

Teaming with them should be a HUGE step forward, like for a small boutique piano artisan to have his products built and marketed by Yamaha.
In theory this should be a failure-proof situation, and jump-start the Legend instantly ahead of Crumar, UHL, Numa and the like. But you never know how partnerships go in the real world, finger cross...

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#2886286 - 10/21/17 12:18 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Spider76]
TomKittel Offline
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Posts: 459
FWIW: I saw Brian Auger in concert yesterday night. He played a Viscount Legend on a B3 like stand with a Korg SV1 on top. The sound was freakin‘ awesome! Completely undistinguishable from his B3.

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#2886288 - 10/21/17 01:29 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: TomKittel]
M_G Offline
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Now you have to sell your Uhl X3, Thomas!
;-)))

As my dad always says: "It''s the player not the instrument"
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#2886322 - 10/21/17 08:22 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: TomKittel]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: TomKittel
FWIW: I saw Brian Auger in concert yesterday night. He played a Viscount Legend on a B3 like stand with a Korg SV1 on top. The sound was freakin‘ awesome! Completely undistinguishable from his B3.


pics from Hamburg (scroll down)

And there again are these MarkBass 15/2 speakers for keys I was unable to find regardless where I looked.

A.C.

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#2886387 - 10/21/17 03:00 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
Jazz+ Offline
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What is he doing with the SV-1?
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#2886394 - 10/21/17 05:22 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
davedoerfler Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
What is he doing with the SV-1?


in all sincerity, what exactly do you mean by this?
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#2886400 - 10/21/17 07:17 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: davedoerfler]
Jazz+ Offline
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I mean what sound does he play mostly on it? Rhodes and AP I should assume? I am quite familiar with the SV-1I. I am thinking the piano on ithe SV -1 would cut through the mix, korgs generally do And the sk1 action is rather quick and light. And it’s footprint is nice on top of organ


Edited by Jazz+ (10/22/17 12:29 PM)
Edit Reason: SV-1
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#2886413 - 10/21/17 10:36 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
M_G Offline
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Loc: Germany

Korg SV1 NOT SK1!
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#2886415 - 10/21/17 11:06 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: M_G]
mate stubb Offline
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I've never heard Brian play anything from his top keyboard but Rhodes sounds. He used to have an old Korg something or another.
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#2886576 - 10/23/17 03:55 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
sosho Offline
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Registered: 05/02/08
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Loc: germany
Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff

That reminds me of something I forgot to mention: I also have an original Mojo, and I was really surprised at how much better the 61 sounded. I expected it only to be a slight improvement, but it's in a whole different league.

Really ? It seems to run the same software . I only tried the original . Maybe it is upgraded DA converters ?

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#2886586 - 10/23/17 05:46 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: sosho]
Delaware Dave Offline
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different operating system platforms will yield different output results. the dual manual mojo runs on windows XP.
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#2886623 - 10/23/17 08:49 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Delaware Dave]
Kurt W Offline
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Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 204
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
different operating system platforms will yield different output results. the dual manual mojo runs on windows XP.

I think you will have a hard time to validate this theory. Does Pianoteq sound different between the Windows, MacOS or Linux?

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#2886628 - 10/23/17 09:44 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Kurt W]
M_G Offline
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Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Germany

I bet there will be a difference between an Intel and
AMD CPU !!!!!

Pianoteq with linux has a lot more punch,
iOS lacks depth and Windows, oh my good,
forget it, muddy muddy muddy....

;-)))



Edited by M_G (10/23/17 09:48 AM)
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#2886670 - 10/23/17 01:13 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: matted stump
He used to have an old Korg something or another.


Korg SG-1D

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#2886679 - 10/23/17 02:13 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: M_G]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: M_G

I bet there will be a difference between an Intel and
AMD CPU !!!!!

Pianoteq with linux has a lot more punch,
iOS lacks depth and Windows, oh my good,
forget it, muddy muddy muddy....

;-)))



Are you claiming that identical code running on different processors sounds noticeably different? Or that the different OSes run different code and that's why it sounds different?

This is the first time I've heard claims that software, not hardware, causes sound differences. Please elaborate.
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#2886682 - 10/23/17 02:19 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 6373
Loc: thin ice
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
I mean what sound does he play mostly on it? Rhodes and AP I should assume?


thanks for clarifying, I read it differently. Many years ago he would have a Rhodes piano on top of his B3 if that helps answer your question, but I think you already knew that. wink
_________________________
I need to practice more than I do, and that will make my current gear - first rate, by any measure - sound even better than it already does.
Tim Wat

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#2886683 - 10/23/17 02:21 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 6373
Loc: thin ice
Originally Posted By: matted stump
Originally Posted By: M_G

I bet there will be a difference between an Intel and
AMD CPU !!!!!

Pianoteq with linux has a lot more punch,
iOS lacks depth and Windows, oh my good,
forget it, muddy muddy muddy....

;-)))



Are you claiming that identical code running on different processors sounds noticeably different? Or that the different OSes run different code and that's why it sounds different?

This is the first time I've heard claims that software, not hardware, causes sound differences. Please elaborate.


Brother MG, I would also be really interested in this if true. I recently stopped using Ubuntu as I just don't have a need but never tried running Pianoteq on it.
_________________________
I need to practice more than I do, and that will make my current gear - first rate, by any measure - sound even better than it already does.
Tim Wat

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#2886687 - 10/23/17 02:46 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: davedoerfler]
Kurt W Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 204
Guys, he is joking.

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#2886697 - 10/23/17 05:25 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Delaware Dave]
sosho Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 49
Loc: germany
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
different operating system platforms will yield different output results. the dual manual mojo runs on windows XP.

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#2886716 - 10/24/17 12:03 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Kurt W]
M_G Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Kurt W
Guys, he is joking.


You got it !
:-)
_________________________
Studio: Hammond XK5+XLK5, Roland FP90, Roland FA07, Prophet 6, HX3-Expander, Neo Vent2
Live: Uhl X3-2, Korg Grandstage 73, Nord Electro 4D, Leslie 760 (11pin-mod), KP500S, Roland SA1000

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#2886717 - 10/24/17 12:04 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Markyboard]
M_G Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 519
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: matted stump
He used to have an old Korg something or another.


Korg SG-1D


The last time I saw him (3 or 4 years ago) he played a Numa Piano.
_________________________
Studio: Hammond XK5+XLK5, Roland FP90, Roland FA07, Prophet 6, HX3-Expander, Neo Vent2
Live: Uhl X3-2, Korg Grandstage 73, Nord Electro 4D, Leslie 760 (11pin-mod), KP500S, Roland SA1000

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#2886796 - 10/24/17 10:14 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: M_G]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3957
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: M_G
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord


Korg SG-1D


The last time I saw him (3 or 4 years ago) he played a Numa Piano.


KORG SG was his top board for a very long time.
Next was a KORG M3 88
Numa Piano in between for a short time ...
KORG M3 88 again,- and now it´s a SV-1.

I think he´s KORG endorsee since a long time and wonder why he didn´t appear w/ the new KORG Grandstage 73.

He also used the SG w/ Eric Burdon/ Brian Auger Band in the 90s and together w/ KORG M1 and Polysix (or Poly61) w/ wooden "VOCE" branded endcaps, the Polysix triggering a VOCE organ module.
There´s a damn great german TV "Ohne Filter Extra" gig on youtube w/ that band and rig and he played his ass off while noone cared about if there´s a Hammond or not.

I guess he now might be Viscount endorsee too.

B.t.w., I downloaded some 2017 Oblivion Express footprint where he´s useing the Legend and the SV-1 and compared identical songs to former performances when he used his Organ-Planet Hammond chop and I disagree on the Viscount Legend sounds the same.
It doesn´t,- and he simply plays on it as good as he did on the real thing.

IMO the best sound he had in the 70s w/ his original B3 and a Fender Rhodes on top, the stuff running thru the Bison Echorec into a guitar amphead and 4x12 cab(s).

When watching the oct.17 Spirit of 66/Verviers (belgium) gig, the organ sounds much cleaner than ever before and, at least to my taste, there´s some overdose of reverb on everything which I never experienced before.

That said, I think the Viscount Legend is a good organ which might receive updates making it even better, but I´m unsure about if it is soundwise significantly or at all better than Mojo61 or UHL.

I´d also be interested in which organ has the lowest latency and my guess is it´s still a HX3 based organ w/ keys connected directly to the engine and because of the FPGA design.

A.C.

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#2887310 - 10/26/17 05:58 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
chelsea4023 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 123
Hi,
I'm a Legend Live owner of a few months.
So far, I am drawn to playing it for extended periods. Hours just seem to disappear. I am getting to grips with all the controls and invariably it sounds utterly stunning which is amazing considering the short time I have owned it.

Now I know I have not said anything technical above, but for me it's all about enjoyment and the playing experience.
My only neutral (not negative) observation is that I could have done with more than two presets for each manual. I can live with that though.
Chris

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#2887370 - 10/27/17 06:39 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3957
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: chelsea4023


... Legend Live ...

My only neutral (not negative) observation is that I could have done with more than two presets for each manual.


Yep, that´s strange because the Legend SOLO already comes w/ 4 (four) presert memory locations plus 1 set of drawbars for each manual in "dual mode"!
("Dual mode" means, you play "upper" on the local action and "lower" on an external keyboard connected via MIDI).

The "only 2 presets per manual" issue, for me is a dealbreaker also for the Crumar MOJO61.

Yesterday I listened to the NUMA Organ 2 demos and watched the KRAFT vids w/ Chris M..
Seems it´s the only single manual clone for about EUR 1K coming w/ 11 presets plus the set of drawbars for each manual.
I found the version 2 to be improved over the version 1 and had the impression it could be a good compromize also because the action is reported to be closer to the real deal than any other Fatar TP-O61 in other clones seems to be.
Leslie sim and C/V sounded good to my ears too.

To work around the not so satisfying overdrive, I wondered if there might be some cable-adapter to connect p.ex. a Vent to the 11-pin Leslie connector and operate rotor speeds and stop/run form NUMA Organ 2 local controls.
Does that exist ?

A.C.

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#2887536 - 10/28/17 08:11 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
teashea Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
Originally Posted By: Al Coda
Originally Posted By: chelsea4023


... Legend Live ...

My only neutral (not negative) observation is that I could have done with more than two presets for each manual.


Yep, that´s strange because the Legend SOLO already comes w/ 4 (four) presert memory locations plus 1 set of drawbars for each manual in "dual mode"!
("Dual mode" means, you play "upper" on the local action and "lower" on an external keyboard connected via MIDI).

The "only 2 presets per manual" issue, for me is a dealbreaker also for the Crumar MOJO61.

Yesterday I listened to the NUMA Organ 2 demos and watched the KRAFT vids w/ Chris M..
Seems it´s the only single manual clone for about EUR 1K coming w/ 11 presets plus the set of drawbars for each manual.
I found the version 2 to be improved over the version 1 and had the impression it could be a good compromize also because the action is reported to be closer to the real deal than any other Fatar TP-O61 in other clones seems to be.
Leslie sim and C/V sounded good to my ears too.

To work around the not so satisfying overdrive, I wondered if there might be some cable-adapter to connect p.ex. a Vent to the 11-pin Leslie connector and operate rotor speeds and stop/run form NUMA Organ 2 local controls.
Does that exist ?

A.C.


I posted a review in this group a few days ago. I think that the Numa Organ 2 is great.

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#2887595 - 10/28/17 08:29 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: teashea]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3957
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: teasha
Originally Posted By: Al Coda
I wondered if there might be some cable-adapter to connect p.ex. a Vent to the 11-pin Leslie connector and operate rotor speeds and stop/run form NUMA Organ 2 local controls.
Does that exist ?

A.C.


I posted a review in this group a few days ago. I think that the Numa Organ 2 is great.


Yes, but please re-read ...
I´m interested in controling an ext. leslie sim (VENT) via 11-pin connector using local controls on NUMA organ 2.
IIRC, that worked w/ H/S Sk-1 and/or XK1-C.

A.C.

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#2887612 - 10/29/17 03:46 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
bill bosco Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/14
Posts: 332
wouldnt it just involve pins 6, 7, and 8 at the leslie
connection ? 6 -common
7 - fast
8 - slow , the audio output at the plug is
boosted for a leslie , so you'd be better off using
the line level outout on the numa .any tech people out there ,
correct me if i'm wrong

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#2887648 - 10/29/17 12:04 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: bill bosco]
SteinwayB Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 78
I'm so confused! I keep going back and forth between a HX3 expander and the Legend solo. They are the same price. It would be used with my CP4 and/or Nord C1. Obviously the expander has no keyboard but is much smaller/lighter and would be a perfect complement to the C1 but would require splitting the CP4 (or bringing another keyboard). That's something I need to figure out but the main question is the sound! Doesn't seem like there is a consensus, particularly when throwing the leslie sim into the mix. I do have a Vent which would take the sim out of the picture. Now, add the Numa 2 to the list. Unfortunately I have no way to compare these 3 options. I also acknowledge how subjective these comparisons are. Any advice greatly appreciated.

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#2887661 - 10/29/17 12:56 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: SteinwayB]
sosho Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 49
Loc: germany
Deleted


Edited by sosho (10/30/17 02:14 AM)
Edit Reason: Inappropriate ,sorry

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#2887667 - 10/29/17 01:26 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: sosho]
SteinwayB Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/06/13
Posts: 78
The latter question is much more straightforward!

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#2887681 - 10/29/17 03:40 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: bill bosco]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3957
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: bill bosco
wouldnt it just involve pins 6, 7, and 8 at the leslie
connection ? 6 -common
7 - fast
8 - slow , the audio output at the plug is
boosted for a leslie , so you'd be better off using
the line level outout on the numa .any tech people out there ,
correct me if i'm wrong


Thank you !
The only from Thomann available cable for the VENT is the one for the Hammond SK-1 and that´s 8-pin.
So DIY is the way to go when buying the NUMA 2 or any other w/ 11-pin connector.

You say Pin #6 = common.
What does "common" mean in that case ?

On the NUMA-2´s 11-pin, pin #6 is "control circuit" (whatever that means).

I have no clue about Leslie electronics but functionality wise, I´d need start/stop (brake), slow/fast and the correct audio signal level for p.ex. the VENTs input as well.
When the audio signal is boosted for a real leslie operation, IMO it can be tamed, maybe by using a resistor, no ?

When using such an adapter cable w/ an external leslie sim, it makes sense using the stereo output w/ internal sim in addition, may it be for double leslie sim or alternately and the mono lineout as well, maybe running into a (guitar-) tube amp.
So I`d prefer taking the audio signal to VENT from the 11-pin connector.

The pinout of the NUMA 2´s 11-pin leslie connector is:

Pin #7 and #8 is pretty clear, but I dunno what to use for "brake" and the pure (mono ?) audio signal because there are 4 available (see below).


1 Audio (Rotary)
2 Audio (Stationary)
3 Audio (Aux 1)
4 Ground
5 Control Supply
6 Control Circuit
7 Fast
8 Slow
9 Speed Adjust
10 Audio (Aux 2)
11 +29 VDC

I didn´t buy the NUMA 2 up to now but want to know if it´s possible making such a cable for the VENT.

B.t.w.,- on the Viscount Legend Solo, the 11-Pin Leslie connector pinout is:

1: Audio +
4: Audio GND
5 - 6: common of speed switch
7: Fast
8: Slow


A.C.

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#2887725 - 10/30/17 04:43 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
JB Sherry Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 157
Loc: Saugerties, NY
Al,
You need a closed circuit to get rotation. Short 6 to 8 and you get Fast. Short 6 to 7 and you get Slow. if the circuit is open you get stop.

On the Vent end, Tip is Fast, Ring is slow. So, Tip to Sleeve=fast, Ring to sleeve=Slow, and open is Stop.

So, the adapter is 6 to Sleeve, 7 to, Ring, and 8 to Tip.

The only problem you may have is that on some organs connecting the 11-pin disables the 1/4. Usually on models that only do organ. If that’s the case with Numa,then you may need to use and reduce the Audio level coming off the 11-pin. Leslie input is way hotter than line, so that is likely what the 11-pin puts out. But, the Vent may be able to handle it. I know people are running consoles into the Vent, and I haven’t seen any mention of padding the signal.

BTW, on Neo site there was a doc for an 11-pin adapter cable, indicating it was a product at some point. Don’t know if the product is available any more.
_________________________
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#2887729 - 10/30/17 06:16 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: JB Sherry]
Kurt W Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 204
Originally Posted By: JB Sherry
BTW, on Neo site there was a doc for an 11-pin adapter cable, indicating it was a product at some point. Don’t know if the product is available any more.

That document describing the 11 pin adapter cable is still available:

http://www.neo-instruments.de/de/ventila...ilator/download

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#2887814 - 10/30/17 04:28 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3957
Loc: out in the sticks
Thank you very much,- Bill Bosco, JB Sherry and Kurt W.
That´s the infos I needed !

Now I hope for the occasion to check out a Viscount Legend Solo vs a Numa 2.


A.C.

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#2887829 - 10/30/17 07:06 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
LX88 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1756
I also liked the Numa 2 the couple times that I played one and I think it has more than a little in common with the Viscount Key B stuff.

It got a bad rap from Mitch Towne on these pages which he is completely at liberty to do.... I know enough about the organ sounds I like not to have that affect me - I think Mitch and I have different tastes anyway.

I spent some time with Numa 2 at NAMM a few years back and it seemed pretty good to me. The keybed still seems different than the Mojo or the Viscount. The CV seemed good and the leslie sim seemed good too. But I haven't lived with one.

I played one at a jam session once and loved it though (!)And I used CV only . It seemed fine to me and I am picky picky.

I loved the combination of the Numa 1 and the Vent. Turning the horn level down made the Numa / Vent combination just right... but I also did not own the Vent, I just used it on a gig once and loved it.

But that keybed kicks ants on the Numa 2. And I believe it is different than the Mojo or Viscount - intentionally.

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#2887831 - 10/30/17 07:20 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
LX88 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1756
Where was Brian Auger playing? Just curious....

BTW he will be 79 next year. His spirit is ageless though. Hope he is doing well. A completely nice person, and an inspiration to me.

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#2887838 - 10/30/17 08:57 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: LX88]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3957
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: LX88
Where was Brian Auger playing? Just curious....


Some europaen tour ...
I refered to belgium Verviers gigs in regards on Viscount Legend.
There are a few on youtube.
clonk

Originally Posted By: LX88

BTW he will be 79 next year. His spirit is ageless though.


Yep !
I always liked Jimmy Smith when I was young but when I heard Brian Auger´s Trinity (w/ Julie Driscoll) and later Oblivion Express, that was it for me.
I really liked Brian not using a Leslie and experimenting w/ guitar amps.
Well, Jon Lord and others did too but they did rock and Brian had that jazz phrasing and played that licks while using the rock sound.
And I always liked how he used the C/V when playing his style.
I´m not a organ purist, but Brian is one of my heros beneath others not being famous for playing organ,- Chick, Herbie, JoeZ, Jan Hammer p.ex..
But I also like Larry Young very much but came to him late by occasion.
IIRC, I listened to Tony Williams Lifetime "Believe It" feat. Alan Pasqua earlier than to any record w/ Larry Young.
That´s life ...

A.C.

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#2887947 - 10/31/17 03:55 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 1869
Update: My Mojo 61 arrived today, and I'm seriously loving it (and kicking myself for waiting this long to get one). In fact between it and the newly beefed-up Forte 7, I think I've reached that elusive and precious point where I'm (dare I even say it?) 100% happy with my rig.
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#2887977 - 10/31/17 07:03 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
chelsea4023 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 123
FunkKeyStuff,
Excellent news, hope you are having a great time with the Mojo.
Fingers crossed you did not lose out trading the Key B Solo in.
I look forward to hearing a video clip in the coming months.
Chris

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#2887991 - 10/31/17 09:37 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5509
Funky stuff
What were you using before the mojo 61?
_________________________
Casio PX-360 digital piano. (26 lbs, has 4 internal speakers); Mojo 61. Sibelius 6, Transcribe!, 2 EV SxA360 powered speakers; 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano. Mackie 12" mixer, iPhone 6.

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#2888062 - 11/01/17 08:09 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
Triple Secret Banninated
10k Club

Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 19101
Loc: Heaven, Hell, or Houston
Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
Update: My Mojo 61 arrived today, and I'm seriously loving it (and kicking myself for waiting this long to get one)
That's my fault for not bringing it to NOLA when we were there last spring for no other reason but for you to try it. wink grin

[Actually, I wanted to do that for you, but it just wasn't going to work with the way we did the trip.]

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#2888282 - 11/02/17 11:46 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 1869
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Funky stuff
What were you using before the mojo 61?


A few different things depending on the situation. For most band gigs, an Sk1, which sounds like a perfectly fine 2011 clonewheel. For organ trio, an original Mojo, which I was never happy taking to gigs because it seemed too fragile and glitchy. For fly dates with backlined boards, an HX3 module, which would see more use on in-town gigs if I didn't hate dealing with modules. The 61 will definitely replace the Sk1 and the original Mojo, though I plan keep the Sk1 to use as a lower manual for organ trio for the time being.
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#2888341 - 11/02/17 06:08 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5509
What is the “original” mojo? A dual manual? With windows xp computer? More fragile? Sounds different than the 61? Has the same EPS as the 61?
_________________________
Casio PX-360 digital piano. (26 lbs, has 4 internal speakers); Mojo 61. Sibelius 6, Transcribe!, 2 EV SxA360 powered speakers; 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano. Mackie 12" mixer, iPhone 6.

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#2888370 - 11/03/17 02:48 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
Triple Secret Banninated
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Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 19101
Loc: Heaven, Hell, or Houston
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
What is the “original” mojo? A dual manual? With windows xp computer? More fragile? Sounds different than the 61? Has the same EPS as the 61?
Yeah, he's referring to the dual manual model that came out a few years ago. Officially, the product names are "Mojo" and "Mojo 61." Theoretically, the tonewheel organ should sound the same or similar because they're both running [Zio]Guido's VB3-II engine. If they don't, there could be some reasons why but I'd bet Guido will tell us they do sound the same when they're both updated and current. smile

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#2888532 - 11/04/17 08:03 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: LX88]
teashea Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
Originally Posted By: LX88
I also liked the Numa 2 the couple times that I played one and I think it has more than a little in common with the Viscount Key B stuff.

It got a bad rap from Mitch Towne on these pages which he is completely at liberty to do.... I know enough about the organ sounds I like not to have that affect me - I think Mitch and I have different tastes anyway.

I spent some time with Numa 2 at NAMM a few years back and it seemed pretty good to me. The keybed still seems different than the Mojo or the Viscount. The CV seemed good and the leslie sim seemed good too. But I haven't lived with one.

I played one at a jam session once and loved it though (!)And I used CV only . It seemed fine to me and I am picky picky.

I loved the combination of the Numa 1 and the Vent. Turning the horn level down made the Numa / Vent combination just right... but I also did not own the Vent, I just used it on a gig once and loved it.

But that keybed kicks ants on the Numa 2. And I believe it is different than the Mojo or Viscount - intentionally.




I really like my Numa Organ 2. I also have a Legend and a Mojo and the Numa holds it own. The build quality is great and the layout is excellent. I wanted dual manuals so I ordered another one, which I will receive Tuesday. Should be fun.

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#2888546 - 11/04/17 09:34 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: teashea]
chelsea4023 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 123
Hi,
I'm genuinely interested in reading what Mitche Towne found to criticise about the Numa 2. I'm sure he had a very valid reason as LX88 mentioned.
I found owning the Numa 2 to be a very positive experience.
Any links would be appreciated.
Chris

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#2888552 - 11/04/17 10:42 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
mate stubb Offline
Grand Poobah of the Trebuchet
10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15499
Mitch can speak for himself, but as I recall he could not get the upper octaves to cut when soloing on stage.
_________________________
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---
Kawai Novus: "Please feel surprised even more."

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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#2888560 - 11/04/17 11:29 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Dglavko Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 658
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Off topic time/love for the Numa... but my Numa1 also gets a lot of use often outnudging my primal Mojo and hx3. For some reason I often seem to “connect” with it better than the others.

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#2888563 - 11/04/17 11:59 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5509
Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
I have a dual manual Mojo (which I love) and was looking for an opportunity to play a Legend to make a final decision on a single manual organ.


That reminds me of something I forgot to mention: I also have an original Mojo, and I was really surprised at how much better the 61 sounded. I expected it only to be a slight improvement, but it's in a whole different league.


Why do they sound different???
_________________________
Casio PX-360 digital piano. (26 lbs, has 4 internal speakers); Mojo 61. Sibelius 6, Transcribe!, 2 EV SxA360 powered speakers; 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano. Mackie 12" mixer, iPhone 6.

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#2888564 - 11/04/17 12:00 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Dglavko]
mate stubb Offline
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10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15499
There's a fabulous new Brian Auger video on FB playing the Legend. Nice to see that he's getting his sound on it now. I saw a vid of him playing one at NAMM and it sounded trebly.

Brian is 78, still touring and smoking. He's my biggest playing style influence. I'm glad he's giving his back a break these days.

https://www.facebook.com/pietro.taucher/videos/972633966209300/
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#2888565 - 11/04/17 12:35 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Jazz+ Offline
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I went to a music major college alongside Brian, who also was a student, in the ‘80’s. He is hot jazz piano player.

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#2888567 - 11/04/17 12:45 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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Hey Moe
Thanks for the clip of Brian. Does he use a foot manual, what is is left foot doing? He plays a lot like my main guy monty alexander : hot party music.

J+
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#2888571 - 11/04/17 01:07 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
Jazz+ Offline
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Here is Brian with his daughter. I’m gonna pick a part this arrangement and Steel as many licks as I can from Brian. What is his main draw a bar setting when he solos? Does he varry his drawbar settings much?

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#2888572 - 11/04/17 01:15 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
mate stubb Offline
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Brian doesn't kick bass. He always uses a bass player.

He's also probably the most famous player to use the straight sound, no leslie whatsoever.
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#2888577 - 11/04/17 01:26 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+

I’m gonna pick a part this arrangement and Steel as many licks as I can from Brian. What is his main draw a bar setting when he solos? Does he varry his drawbar settings much?


Have fun! I have stolen many licks from him. In the meantime, check this out. He's using 888400000 soloing. Brian, like many English players, prefers 2nd percussion to 3rd percussion, and since he doesn't use a leslie, he often switches vibrato on an off like one.

Also google Brian Auger alien lick. It's one of his favorites.

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#2888581 - 11/04/17 01:36 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
mate stubb Offline
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Another clip with nice view from above.

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#2888589 - 11/04/17 02:16 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Jazz+ Offline
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Thanks, what a monster in B- , huge fan now. Gonna slow down those dazzling licks and cop some if them. It seems he would do fine with a single manual organ with a digital EP on top, why does he need a double manual organ at all?

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#2888593 - 11/04/17 02:41 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jazz+
It seems he would do fine with a single manual organ with a digital EP on top, why does he need a double manual organ at all?


For when he solos on top manual and wants to comp on organ instead of piano behind it.
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#2888721 - 11/05/17 03:55 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
Mitch Towne Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 946
Originally Posted By: chelsea4023
Hi,
I'm genuinely interested in reading what Mitche Towne found to criticise about the Numa 2.
Chris


Here is my original short review of the Numa 2:

--------

I tried the Numa 2 for a week and a half and returned it. I purchased it after demoing it at NAMM in hopes that it would be a useful single manual rehearsal board. Here are my overall thoughts:

Keybed Feel: This was the main selling point for the Numa 2, as far as I was concerned. I knew that it didn't sound as good as my Mojo, Nord or Hammond SK2, but the feel of the keybed was the most realistic of the bunch. I figured that, if I didn't love the sound, I could use it as a controller for something with a more realistic sound set, like the HX3 module. However, I discovered a big problem with that plan. The Numa 2 only sends MIDI information from the lower trigger point, not the high trigger point that the internal sound uses. As far as using the Numa 2 as an organ controller, that's a deal-breaker.

Sound: I tried the original Numa twice. I really wanted to like it but ended up returning it both times because I just couldn't get a ballsy tone out of it. The Numa 2 is no different. The sound doesn't cut in group situation. I don't mean a high shrill sound, I mean a sound that has enough body to be present in the context of a band. I took the Numa 2 to a jazz trio rehearsal, using the internal sim and a QSC and the Numa was totally lost in the mix. 16 bars into the first tune, I was missing the Mojo. The Nord Electro 3 cuts better than the Numa as well. The Numa just doesn't have a powerful, round sound.

Also, I thought I detected an odd behavior with the percussion retriggering, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I wish I had read Blyon's post before I returned mine. I would love to know if that was the issue. What an odd fault if that's the case.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I was disappointed with the Numa 2 and was glad to be able to return it.

----

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#2888731 - 11/05/17 06:21 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Mitch Towne]
chelsea4023 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 123
Hi Mitch,
thanks for getting back to me and giving your views on the Numa 2. As you are a pro player (which I'm not) your requirements from the instrument would be greater than mine. I understand fully about sound getting lost in the mix (I read a lot of these comments when musicians review digital pianos).
I agree with you about the keybed feel. Simply gorgeous with a beautiful ivory finish. I have a Korg PA4X arranger, and previously had a Yamaha Tyros 5, £2,200 and £2,750 U.K. respectively and neither had a keybed of the quality of the Numa 2.
I know that new "Organ sets" were posted on the Studiologic website which I downloaded and loaded into the Numa 2. Did you try these, or had you already sold it on ? Not sure if they would have been enough for you to keep hold of it though.

Anyway Mitch, it's good to know you have the Mojo that you are happy with. I've sold my Numa 2 on (purely as I wanted a two manual clone), and now have a Viscount Key B Live.
Chris

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#2888768 - 11/06/17 06:15 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Mitch Towne]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Loc: Take a guess ....
Originally Posted By: Mitch Towne
".. I mean a sound that has enough body to be present in the context of a band ..
One of the reasons I still appreciate the Voce V5+. It has that ballsy sound (aka body as Mitch describes it).
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#2888774 - 11/06/17 07:09 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
Mitch Towne Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 946
Originally Posted By: chelsea4023
Hi Mitch,
thanks for getting back to me and giving your views on the Numa 2. As you are a pro player (which I'm not) your requirements from the instrument would be greater than mine. I understand fully about sound getting lost in the mix (I read a lot of these comments when musicians review digital pianos).
I agree with you about the keybed feel. Simply gorgeous with a beautiful ivory finish. I have a Korg PA4X arranger, and previously had a Yamaha Tyros 5, £2,200 and £2,750 U.K. respectively and neither had a keybed of the quality of the Numa 2.
I know that new "Organ sets" were posted on the Studiologic website which I downloaded and loaded into the Numa 2. Did you try these, or had you already sold it on ? Not sure if they would have been enough for you to keep hold of it though.

Anyway Mitch, it's good to know you have the Mojo that you are happy with. I've sold my Numa 2 on (purely as I wanted a two manual clone), and now have a Viscount Key B Live.
Chris



There were three sets included in the Numa 2. I think the ones you are talking about that were available for download were for the Numa 1 and were included in the Numa 2. I could be wrong, since the internal architecture of the Numa 2 is different than the Numa 1.

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#2888831 - 11/06/17 01:29 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Mitch Towne]
chelsea4023 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 123
Hi Mitch,

Studiologic Numa 2 download page.

http://studiologic-music.com/products/numa_organ2/#downloads

Chris

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#2888841 - 11/06/17 02:27 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
Nadroj Offline
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Registered: 08/19/13
Posts: 959
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
Originally Posted By: Jazz+


Here is Brian with his daughter. I’m gonna pick a part this arrangement and Steel as many licks as I can from Brian. What is his main draw a bar setting when he solos? Does he varry his drawbar settings much?


Thanks for sharing that video. Looks like I'm back on a BA binge tonight.

Also kinda nice, I'm now at the point where I'm listening to stuff and I'm like "Hey! I know that lick!"


Edited by Nadroj (11/06/17 02:28 PM)
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#2888976 - 11/07/17 08:15 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Nadroj]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5509
Brian Auger has a great left hand on the Rhodes, he use the notes in his chords to percuss a variety of rhythmic chord comps, sort of like a one handed clavinet funk player It’s very independent from the right hand soloing. I wonder if he gets a sore shoulder, playing with the left arm raised impinges the joint.
That snappy sound and velocity sensitity that his Rhodes provides would be lost on the lower manual . Is it correct that the Mojo 61 hardware will never accommodate and organ / Rhodes split no matter how they rewrite the program?


Edited by Jazz+ (11/07/17 08:29 AM)
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#2888988 - 11/07/17 09:08 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Jazz+]
Delaware Dave Offline
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If they included the gemini module in the Mojo you'd be able to do this.
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#2888991 - 11/07/17 09:28 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
area51recording Online   content
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Registered: 12/13/02
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Loc: Newburgh,IN
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Originally Posted By: count doerflera
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
It's weak spot might be the acoustic piano samples, they do not move as quickly as the other modeled sounds do.


I thought they fixed that for you. wink


The AP is better since they trimmed the start point, but it is still unsatisfying to play. When I try to dig in it doesn't respond, unlike the Rhodes, Wurli, and clav.


interesting. I have this very same issue with my Electro 3. I love playing Rhodes, Wurlie and clav sounds on it, but can't connect with ANY of the available AP's at all....

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#2889001 - 11/07/17 10:43 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: area51recording]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: area51recording
I have this very same issue with my Electro 3. I love playing Rhodes, Wurlie and clav sounds on it, but can't connect with ANY of the available AP's at all....

For some reason, I find that the pianos are playing better on the Electro 5D than they did on the Electro 3 or the Nord Stage 2-73.
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#2889014 - 11/07/17 12:36 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AnotherScott]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Loc: Take a guess ....
" ... I have this very same issue with my Electro 3. I love playing Rhodes, Wurlie and clav sounds on it, but can't connect with ANY of the available AP's at all....

I had the same issue, I felt the acoustic piano was too compressed and couldn't get the correct expression when playing. On the Gemini model I went into the sample player and adjusted the attack to my liking and the dynamics now feel right to me. What I don't like is the sustain pedal feeling; even though I adjusted the "harp" setting, the sustain pedal introduces too much saturation of the sound, kind of unnaturally saturated. I wish I could get the sustain to work like it does on my PC3 where I was able to easily address the sustain amount and match it to my baby grand.
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#2890363 - 11/14/17 11:12 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Delaware Dave]
mate stubb Offline
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Back on topic - I took delivery of a Legend Live today.



My Mojo dual is across town in the studio right now, so a face to face shootout must wait.

Initial impression - it sounded very different to the Mojo to me out of the box, and strange. It took most of the day playing, taking a break and coming back with fresh ears to start appreciating it as its own thing. Hardware is fabulous. Everything you need, no bigger and no heavier than it has to be, full patch points and connectors.

I think the Mojo has the edge still on details like chorus vib and key click. Percussion is great on both, with the edge to Viscount because the level and decay controls are right out front. The sim on the Legend is pretty nice. I can't comment on how it compares to Mojo since I am used to a Vent. That's another item for the shootout.

I think where the Legend is going to shine is cutting in a live situation. The 3 band EQ is a lot more effective than Mojo's, and heavier OD levels can also increase the ability to cut through. Won't get a chance to find out until Thursday.

Meanwhile, I have been getting some fabulous tone in the studio with Mojo thru a 145, so maybe its forte will turn out to be recording.
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#2890383 - 11/15/17 05:14 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Al Quinn Offline
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Registered: 08/13/14
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How do you like the action on the Legend Live?
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#2890404 - 11/15/17 06:41 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: AnotherScott]
teashea Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: area51recording
I have this very same issue with my Electro 3. I love playing Rhodes, Wurlie and clav sounds on it, but can't connect with ANY of the available AP's at all....

For some reason, I find that the pianos are playing better on the Electro 5D than they did on the Electro 3 or the Nord Stage 2-73.


... and, the Nord Stage 3 is the same as the Electro 5D in this regard. The piano are quite good - maybe not quite as good as a Dexibell though.

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#2890405 - 11/15/17 06:44 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Quinn]
teashea Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
How do you like the action on the Legend Live?


I think that the action on my Live is quite good but this is so subjective. Players have very different opinions of a keybed action. I think that the Live is very solid and reassuring. There is no wobble in the keys and the sensitivity is good for me.

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#2890408 - 11/15/17 06:48 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: teashea]
teashea Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/24/17
Posts: 51
Just like the differences among different B3's family organs, the are differences between the Mojo and Legend (or Live). If one gets used to the sound of one, the other is going to sound questionable. It is a natural response. I find that it is difficult to determine if one sound is better than the other - just a little different. But I know that some players like a particular type of sound and will prefer one or the other.

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#2890419 - 11/15/17 07:14 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3957
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Back on topic - I took delivery of a Legend Live today.


Can´t wait for your review and comparison to real deal and other clones !

A.C.

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#2890431 - 11/15/17 09:04 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
LX88 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1756
I am curious if there are new organ sets for the Numa 2, or if the original Numa 1 sounds can be downloaded into the Numa 2.

I don't get to get my hands on a Numa 2 much if at all these days. But I have played both the Viscount and Mojo recently and the keybeds on those don't seem to be much different than the original Numa 1 TP 80.

I am hoping that Crumar sees fit to revise the Mojo
( particularly the leslie sim) at some point soon. I guess my ear is just dialed into the Key B approach.

We apparently each like something different.

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#2890435 - 11/15/17 09:38 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Quinn]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Quinn
How do you like the action on the Legend Live?


It's stiff. As are the drawbars and the CV knob. It put me off at first, but I got somewhat used to it by the end of the day. Mojo still plays better. The Legend would greatly benefit from a new set of springs.

Drawbars I suspect will loosen up.
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#2890452 - 11/15/17 11:29 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
chelsea4023 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 123
Hi Mate stubb,
Just a couple of small points, but the legend and Legend Live are new organs.
One owner remarked on the Facebook users Forum how the keyboard action on his had softened slightly with regular use.
Regarding the sounds and effects, I know Lars Hamre, Newtone Sounds (reponsible for the organ sounds in the Legend and the Live) reads all the forum posts he can and takes all suggestions on board with the result that Pat Bianchi is currently auditioning and giving feedback to Viscount on new organ sounds and effects that will be given in a free software update imminently.
I think it's right to say that the Legend models soundwise (and in response to user feedback) are only going to improve in time. I would be curious to know how many software updates the Crumar Mojo has had since it's inception, the Legend organs are yet to have their first one !!
Chris

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#2890481 - 11/15/17 02:32 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 1869
After a couple weeks with the Mojo I've got it dialed in to sound just like I like it, to the point where I'm using it instead of the house B3 and Leslie on half a dozen gigs at two different clubs this month. It sounds that good, and it's that much fun to play, and unlike the two B3s in question, everything about it works all the time.

Something I've learned is that the warm "purring" sound I like isn't just a matter of overdrive (as I had previously thought), but a combination of overdrive and crosstalk. Getting the balance of those two just right made all the difference for me.
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#2890499 - 11/15/17 03:30 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff

Something I've learned is that the warm "purring" sound I like isn't just a matter of overdrive (as I had previously thought), but a combination of overdrive and crosstalk. Getting the balance of those two just right made all the difference for me.


Would be interested in the parameter values you have set for these two - Xtalk level and brilliance, OD 1 or 2, etc?
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#2890503 - 11/15/17 04:11 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 231
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff

Something I've learned is that the warm "purring" sound I like isn't just a matter of overdrive (as I had previously thought), but a combination of overdrive and crosstalk. Getting the balance of those two just right made all the difference for me.


Would be interested in the parameter values you have set for these two - Xtalk level and brilliance, OD 1 or 2, etc?


I don't have enough experience playing true tonewheels and am guessing with a lot of the adjustments, so I'd be interested in where you've set all the parameters if you're willing to post them.
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#2890505 - 11/15/17 04:33 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3957
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: mate stubb

It's stiff. As are the drawbars and the CV knob.


The drawbars are plastic or metal (like in MAG) ?
Stepless like drawfaders or the other way around ?

A.C.

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#2890521 - 11/15/17 07:28 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Al Coda]
mate stubb Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15499
Originally Posted By: Al Coda
Originally Posted By: mate stubb

It's stiff. As are the drawbars and the CV knob.


The drawbars are plastic or metal (like in MAG) ?
Stepless like drawfaders or the other way around ?


The drawbar is merely a metal slide which moves a slide pot under the covers, so stepless.
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---
Kawai Novus: "Please feel surprised even more."

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#2890633 - 11/16/17 02:18 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Mitch Towne Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 946
Regarding TP80 actions, they might loosen up a bit over time, but the stock TP80 that Nord and Viscount use is not ever going to loosen to the point where it feels the same as the Mojo. Crumar found the sweet spot.

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#2890646 - 11/16/17 03:38 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
Lars Hamre Offline
Member

Registered: 06/30/17
Posts: 4
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Originally Posted By: chelsea4023
Regarding the sounds and effects, I know Lars Hamre, Newtone Sounds (reponsible for the organ sounds in the Legend and the Live) reads all the forum posts he can and takes all suggestions on board with the result that Pat Bianchi is currently auditioning and giving feedback to Viscount on new organ sounds and effects that will be given in a free software update imminently.

That is not entirely accurate. I am developing the DSP software, but I'm not responsible for the actual sounds and parameter settings. I also don't decide what changes go in. That is 100% up to Viscount.

Pat is not the only one making changes. There are a few others involved. What seems to be holding up the update is that each one takes the sound in different directions, so someone must decide on what will be the "final settings", so to speak.

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#2890651 - 11/16/17 04:03 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: Lars Hamre]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 6373
Loc: thin ice
thanks for clearing that up, Lars. cheers
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#2890673 - 11/16/17 05:48 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: davedoerfler]
chelsea4023 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 123
Hi,
My apologies to both Lars Hamre and the Forum members for my incorrect information regarding Lars input to the key B Legend organs.
What I would like to emphasise here is that Viscount as a Company in conjunction with Key B are working pro-actively towards improving the sounds and features of their Legend organs for the benefit of users. As I stated in my previous post, Forums are being monitored by Lars and other staff to obtain feedback from users towards this process.
Chris

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#2890692 - 11/16/17 08:45 PM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: chelsea4023]
mate stubb Offline
Grand Poobah of the Trebuchet
10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15499
I went all Brian Auger tonight at rehearsal with my first chance to hear how the Legend would cut with other instruments. It didn't disappoint.



I think this setup could work really well if I add some of my patented slides to move the piano forward when doing heavy work on the Nord.

Everyone in the band felt the Legend projected more clearly than they were used to with the Mojo, and that it cut thru the band well. I played it thru my TT08a speakers and left EQ flat on the mixer. Aside from a couple of notes near the bottom end of the keyboard which had a bit of boom, the Legend seems pretty even in response up and down the range. I'm told these loud notes are fixed in the next update.

The tone can be pushed into the dirty range pretty far and still stay focused. When I first turned it on I didn't like the rock leslie or the rock overdrive, but I found a sweet spot that gets me into Gregg Rolie or Keith Emerson territory.

The percussion volume and decay knobs are super useful. I find myself tweaking them all the time for different registrations and overdrive levels.

Overall it was quite inspiring to play. I kind of went into beast mode and started slapping it around like you do a real console when you are loose and comfortable. The stiff action didn't bother me. The full drawbar sets are THE BOMB. God how I have missed having these on a clone. I don't mind the mini lit switches of the Live as opposed to the more authentic tabs of the big Legend. The Stage was able to set up top and was comfortable to stand and play and access the panel (when I slid it forward a bit!) Top marks for ergonomic design.

Of course, I have my wish list.

Top of the list is refining the chorus vibrato to make it shimmer more like the real thing. Everyone knows this is one of the best features of the Mojo, and there are certain places on the keyboard with certain registrations where the FM component dominates too much and it gets warbly.

Next, please give me more control of the click. I'm a click man. I like a lot of click. I'd like control of the length, because I like it longer and to splat a little bit. I'd also like a color control to make it darker in tone. And maybe even more level - I have it pretty much cranked and there are times when the overdrive is high that I could use even more.

Finally, spring that keybed the same way Crumar does!
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Moe
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Kawai Novus: "Please feel surprised even more."

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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#2890710 - 11/17/17 01:41 AM Re: Totally unofficial Mojo 61/Viscount Legend shootout [Re: mate stubb]
Paul Harrison Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 361
Loc: Adelaide, Australia
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
... refine the chorus vibrato to make it shimmer more

... more control of the click ... more level

... spring that keybed [lighter]


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