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Yamaha Genos


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Just in the relatively short time that I've been here, I've seen at least three or four posts from people saying they were going to wait for the next thing.

 

I'm waiting for the next thing that I can reasonably afford, not to mention justify to myself and my family. :)

Michael Rideout
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Yeah, it's been a crazy year for me and keyboards. My wife is marvelously tolerant, but that doesn't mean that I want to push matters. And then there's the fact that I've got more keyboards than a guy of my current keyboard abilities deserves. I'm going to take it down a notch or two before I end up with a Rick Wakeman-sized array of machinery.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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And then there's the fact that I've got more keyboards than a guy of my current keyboard abilities deserves. I'm going to take it down a notch or two before I end up with a Rick Wakeman-sized array of machinery.

 

Just send a few my way. :w00t:

 

 

When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
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I'm waiting for the next thing that I can reasonably afford, not to mention justify to myself and my family. :)

 

I purchased a new B stock MOXF 6 a while back for this very reason. Got a super deal too. As an early purchaser (and still owner) of the Motif ES I know my way around this machine, got a bunch of new sounds, arps, etc., and simple 12# portability. Way easier to move than my ES.

 

It's come in handy quite a few times for family weddings. Load-in/out is a breeze with the MOXF and CPS amp. I can even carry it all, with stand, in one trip.

 

Trickle down tech has really changed the keyboard landscape.

Kurzweil Forte, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
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I've never heard anyone on the forum say they were waiting for "trickle-down" technology from an arranger to find its way into anything.

 

 

My impression is that Yamaha added Expanded Articulation (XA) to the Motif line in response to user demands for the Super Articulation implemented in the Tyros. XA is not exactly the same as SA, but it seems to satisfy the users - there's an old thread or two here.

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The distinction between arrangers and workstations is that the arrangers come with "canned backing patterns" that follow the player. A workstation is a "build it yourself" model.

 

Yet, the workstations also come with plenty of pre-written sequences and looped patterns that you can trigger with the left hand while soloing with the right. Maybe they don't have the control panel laid out for mixing patterns and lead sounds together EASILY, but obviously it can still be done.

 

Arrangers are for those who never learned the concept of the workstation keyboard (and how to program one), but still only understand the "home organ" concept where accompaniment patterns are laid out right on the panel. That's a lot of extra money to charge just for some alternative control panel layout. The capabilities of the machines are more-or-less the same.

Kurzweil PC3, Yamaha MOX8, Alesis Ion, Kawai K3M
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Arrangers also are weak on the editing of sounds area. My Tyros 4 is an example; I cannot shape the basses, too long, inauthentic bass decay properly . But my Tyros is by far the best pre packaged drum machine I have ever known.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Arrangers are for those who never learned the concept of the workstation keyboard (and how to program one), but still only understand the "home organ" concept where accompaniment patterns are laid out right on the panel. That's a lot of extra money to charge just for some alternative control panel layout. The capabilities of the machines are more-or-less the same.

 

I gather you've never actually played an arranger, then? Styles on arrangers are not the same thing as arpeggiator loops on workstations. Arrangers are designed for 'one man band' live performance. Whereas, 90% of the 'backing track' functionality provided by workstation presets will never be used in anger, and are mostly there for showroom flash.

 

Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37

Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D

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Arrangers also are weak on the editing of sounds area. My Tyros 4 is an example; I cannot shape the basses, too long, inauthentic bass decay properly.

 

The Korg PA series, particularly the PA4X, seems to offer deeper editing than the Tyroses. But few people buy an arranger expecting to access VAST-level program customisation. There's too little demand for it from the market which arrangers serve, basically.

 

 

Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37

Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D

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Arrangers are for those who never learned the concept of the workstation keyboard (and how to program one), but still only understand the "home organ" concept where accompaniment patterns are laid out right on the panel. That's a lot of extra money to charge just for some alternative control panel layout. The capabilities of the machines are more-or-less the same.

 

I gather you've never actually played an arranger, then? Styles on arrangers are not the same thing as arpeggiator loops on workstations. Arrangers are designed for 'one man band' live performance. Whereas, 90% of the 'backing track' functionality provided by workstation presets will never be used in anger, and are mostly there for showroom flash.

 

To further blur the line,some arrangers will change the pattern/bass line/hits according to the inversion or type of chord you hold in the LH, C Maj plays one pattern, Cmaj7 changes the pattern movement , at least with my arranger board.

SpaceStation V3,

MoxF6,PX5S,Hammond-SK2,Artis7,Stage2-73,

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Toys: RIP died in the flood of 8/16 1930 Hammond AV, 1970s Leslie 145, 1974 Rhodes Stage

 

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Holy smokes, guys, I didn't mean to start an argument...uh, debate as to what an arranger is.

 

(But given that there seems to be some difference of opinion, perhaps I'm not the only one who views the Genos with a raised eyebrow.)

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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Well, as some of you know, I bought a used Tyros 4 a few weeks back. I knew Genos was on the horizon, but knew I couldn't afford (or possibly justify) the sort of money these things go for new.

 

However, even the Tyros 4 is a great sounding machine which is possible to go really deep into. Every time I switch the thing on, I end up spending more than an hour on it it's the crack cocaine of keyboards. As an 'ideas machine', it's difficult to beat.

 

I don't really need a Genos. I can't really afford one. But I sure as hell want one.

 

As far as the cost is concerned, this is Yamaha's cash cow, with mostly older and retired players willing to pay top dollar prices in that respect, it's a similar model to Lowrey organs, albeit the residuals are a little better.

 

I agree, and especially the bolded. Clavinova pianos, too.

 

I think I read that the Genos has 1.8GB non-volatile memory, so that's cool. Thanks for starting that, Kurzweil. For playing gigs I would still rather deal with the Korg than the Yammy.

 

But I would love to have all of these sounds in a rack mount, skip the arranger. ;)

The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

 

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

 

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But I would love to have all of these sounds in a rack mount, skip the arranger. ;)

 

Time for me to 'fess up. I went and did a bad thing. Bought a Yamaha Motif XS rack unit. There are some voices on there that are dated, perhaps--but there are others that I'm really digging right now, things that aren't on my Kronos.

 

And it worked first time. Plugged in the cables. Poof. Music came out. Just like magic. None of that fiddly bullshit that I was facing, trying to wrestle with buffer sizes and ports and latency and compatibility problems. Still haven't gotten the software-on-a-PC thing to do anything useful, yet the rack unit worked perfectly, first time. Boom. Instant gratification. Highly recommended for those hunting new tones. Tell 'em Grey sent you.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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I guess rack unit sales have dipped since VST/AU took off on laptops and now tablets. But nothing wrong with that, the XS rack is a nice choice for filling in the few blanks or finding an alternative patch from your Kronos. Whatever gets the job done. I'm not thrilled about using a desktop OS live, but plenty of people doing it. If I were to do it though, I'd almost definitely go with OSX an MainStage, personally.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Oh, I don't doubt that the software approach is here to stay--it's just that it's so bloody finicky and if you want a lot of decent voices (not to mention the hardware) you're going to spend at least as much, if not more, than a used Korg or Yamaha rack. I suspect, but can't (read: don't want to) prove, that rack units are more physically robust than laptops, etc. Plus, I imagine that people are more likely to steal a PC/laptop/tablet/etc. than a dedicated rack unit.

 

The XS rack piano sounds lag behind the Kronos (though not as bad as I feared), so I use the Kronos for that, but there are some pretty massive pipe organs and interesting bell sounds (I don't claim that the bells are natural, per se, only that they're cool--bells are just weird to begin with). The thing's got somewhere around 1200 voices. A lot are redundant, given that both the MM8 and Kronos have plenty of bread and butter stuff. For instance, I'm hip deep in Hammond voices and have the A-100, too. The thing I didn't see coming was the pipe organs. Hadn't really thought about it. But there they are and they are good. I'm still working my way through the banks, making notes as to what I might be interested in working with. It's got a butt-load of electric bass voices, but I don't need 'em. If I want a bass lick, I'll do it myself. Ditto for guitars. Might be useful for someone else, though.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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I have to laugh when I see some of you saying 5K for this is oh so expensive, no way you can justify it, etc. There are two scenarios being described here. OMB live gigs or retired folks home use. Either one can easily afford this.

 

If you're a full time player, about 30 gigs and it's paid for if you have a partner. 10-15 if it's just you. You older guys, how much did you spend 30 years ago to go on the road full time? For me it's 45 years ago (gasp). A used B3, Leslie and a Rhodes. About $3,500 in 1973. That's about 20K now. Five grand for the absolute best top of the line keyboard in today's money is dirt cheap guys.

 

People pay 45K for a nice pickup truck. They then load them up with jet skis, dirt bikes, camping gear, they tow boats and whatever else. How much does that all that gear cost for what's really just a hobby? Have some fun on the weekends type thing.

 

I know this forum is populated by stereotypical starving musicians living in our parents basements. WRONG! Plenty of money on this forum. Here we're talking about actually making money and doing serious music at home. How much do the tools cost a good auto mechanic? A carpenter? Whatever tradesman. How about scuba gear and the trips to use it? Or RC airplanes? Or golf. That ain't cheap either on an annual basis and forget about actual country club membership costs.

 

The Genos is totally worth it if you like arrangers. And paying for it? Most here have the money, it's just a matter of priorities and working it out.

 

Bob

 

 

Hammond SK1, Mojo 61, Kurzweil PC3, Korg Pa3x, Roland FA06, Band in a Box, Real Band, Studio One, too much stuff...
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Grey, rest assured I wasn't trying to start an argument just that your comments led me to believe that you genuinely hadn't played an arranger. I hadn't myself until I bought the Tyros. It's interesting you like the Motif rack a lot of the articulation realism of the 'acoustic' voices is a direct trickle-down from the Tyros.

 

The only thing about the XS rack is you might find it difficult getting the most out of its capabilities driving it through that two-line LCD display. And ironically, that's when you might just realise the value of a customised, physical interface for the job at hand. 'Nuff said? :)

 

Bob, I honestly don't know how you guys managed with those prices back in the day, and I agree with you that we're very lucky with our choices these days.

 

That said, if you're a pro, you'll always need to balance investment upon return and another way of looking on your equation is that it will be 30 gigs before you put any money in the bank. You also have to figure out how long you may keep these things, because I'm guessing we all probably change our tools rather more often than auto mechanics!

 

Having viewed all the Genos videos so far, I went back to those featuring the Korg PA4X. To these ears, the Korg still sounds better (maybe not as spectacular, but more 'workaday' value) than the Yammie and costs significantly less (over a grand here in the UK).

Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37

Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D

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Seems that we may have a communication breakdown in progress. I'm not part of any argument or debate with anyone. What I was referring to was the succession of posts from others with divergent views as to what an arranger is and how it differs from other classifications of keyboards. If I'm reading those posts correctly, there's no clear consensus as to what defines an arranger. It seems that it's all very murky...and not just to me.

 

And, no, I haven't played one. Never even seen one. Stuff like that simply doesn't exist in my neck of the woods. Low income area. I'm just trying to peer through the fog to understand the concept.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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I have to laugh when I see some of you saying 5K for this is oh so expensive, no way you can justify it, etc. There are two scenarios being described here. OMB live gigs or retired folks home use. Either one can easily afford this.

 

If you're a full time player, about 30 gigs and it's paid for if you have a partner. 10-15 if it's just you. You older guys, how much did you spend 30 years ago to go on the road full time? For me it's 45 years ago (gasp). A used B3, Leslie and a Rhodes. About $3,500 in 1973. That's about 20K now. Five grand for the absolute best top of the line keyboard in today's money is dirt cheap guys.

 

People pay 45K for a nice pickup truck. They then load them up with jet skis, dirt bikes, camping gear, they tow boats and whatever else. How much does that all that gear cost for what's really just a hobby? Have some fun on the weekends type thing.

 

I know this forum is populated by stereotypical starving musicians living in our parents basements. WRONG! Plenty of money on this forum. Here we're talking about actually making money and doing serious music at home. How much do the tools cost a good auto mechanic? A carpenter? Whatever tradesman. How about scuba gear and the trips to use it? Or RC airplanes? Or golf. That ain't cheap either on an annual basis and forget about actual country club membership costs.

 

The Genos is totally worth it if you like arrangers. And paying for it? Most here have the money, it's just a matter of priorities and working it out.

 

Bob

 

 

Bob,

 

Very presumptuous. It's a lot of money no matter how you shake it. The only difference is ones personal financial circumstances, responsibilities, obligations. Are there people that participate here that have the wiggle room to drop this cash as a hobbiest purchase? Yes. Is it wise? Debatable. Are there those that shouldn't? Yes. Are there those that couldn't? Most definitely yes.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Oh, I don't doubt that the software approach is here to stay--it's just that it's so bloody finicky and if you want a lot of decent voices (not to mention the hardware) you're going to spend at least as much, if not more, than a used Korg or Yamaha rack. I suspect, but can't (read: don't want to) prove, that rack units are more physically robust than laptops, etc. Plus, I imagine that people are more likely to steal a PC/laptop/tablet/etc. than a dedicated rack unit.

 

Well next time your imagination is running riot on the the possibility of theft why not let it wander into the realm of the Kensington lock. And I don't know how many rack units the military take into combat zones but I do know they take laptops. Google is your friend for further info, for example "Amrel".

A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P

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I'm waiting for the next thing that I can reasonably afford, not to mention justify to myself and my family. :)

 

I purchased a new B stock MOXF 6 a while back for this very reason. Got a super deal too. As an early purchaser (and still owner) of the Motif ES I know my way around this machine, got a bunch of new sounds, arps, etc., and simple 12# portability. Way easier to move than my ES.

 

It's come in handy quite a few times for family weddings. Load-in/out is a breeze with the MOXF and CPS amp. I can even carry it all, with stand, in one trip.

 

Trickle down tech has really changed the keyboard landscape.

I bought a MOXF6 as a fly-in sub for my XF7 now a bit over a year ago. I love how sonically close it is to my 3x $ XF7. keyboard is not as good but not too bad for me (unless i play on the keys with it turned off, the klacky sound is a disconnecting feature for me). Like you, I already knew the MOXF arch/design from my XF7 and I was able to port my custom library over to it. Now i don't even take the XF out to local gigs unless its one of the older acts I've never bothered to convert to MOXF because they don't play often enough to bother (e.g. Bowie and UFO cover sets, each play at best 2x a year and always local).

 

So I'm not waiting for the Genos to trickle into Montage2, I dont even understand how to utilize what makes arrangers valuable anyway. I'm waiting for Montage to trickle down into a $1200 MOXF2 :). There are things about the Montage design that are perfect for how I set up set designs to play live. '

 

I don't do any one-man band type stuff and don't have surplus time to really devote to music machines. I've never learned to use the depth of the XF, no reason to expect I'd learn Genos. I 100% envy those that do and have this added knowledge. I have just enough time to learn the songs I'll perform (with a band). I'm not getting much better, but then again I'm not getting much worse lol

The baiting I do is purely for entertainment value. Please feel free to ignore it.
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pjd,

Thanks for the link. I've got it loading in another tab and will take a look at it shortly.

 

Well next time your imagination is running riot on the the possibility of theft why not let it wander into the realm of the Kensington lock. And I don't know how many rack units the military take into combat zones but I do know they take laptops. Google is your friend for further info, for example "Amrel".

 

'Running riot?' Hmmm. Actually, in the month I've been here, I've seen several posts from members who have specifically mentioned the possibility of theft in exactly this context.

 

As for cable locks and hardened hardware, I just retired from 30+ years in IT, so you might say that I'm aware of the stuff. Cable locks depend, by definition, on having something to tie to, which is not always going to be convenient. I guess you could drill holes in your B3, but then the resale value drops. Bummer, that. Add to that the posts that show up every day or two about having lost some item or other at a gig or practice. Granted, losing the cable wouldn't be a show stopper the way a dedicated signal cable would, so the show would go on.

 

Hardened PCs add to the cost of the software/PC system, further tilting the scales in terms of cost. They also start getting heavier and bulkier, again tilting the scales.

 

Different people will make choices based on their perception of cost/benefit ratios. Road use problems, whether reliability or security-based, are academic for me. All my stuff is at home and likely to remain so. Okay, I suppose that I could--maybe should--worry about theft or fire or earthquakes or flooding but still, others here have raised exactly these points, and recently, at that. And cost and weight are always at the forefront of peoples' minds, well, some of them...the cost aspect seems to be a running subtext in this thread for a few members. I know it would be for me.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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I ha

People pay 45K for a nice pickup truck. They then load them up with jet skis, dirt bikes, camping gear, they tow boats and whatever else. How much does that all that gear cost for what's really just a hobby? Have some fun on the weekends type thing.

 

I know this forum is populated by stereotypical starving musicians living in our parents basements. WRONG! Plenty of money on this forum. Here we're talking about actually making money and doing serious music at home. How much do the tools cost a good auto mechanic? A carpenter? Whatever tradesman. How about scuba gear and the trips to use it? Or RC airplanes? Or golf. That ain't cheap either on an annual basis and forget about actual country club membership costs.

 

The Genos is totally worth it if you like arrangers. And paying for it? Most here have the money, it's just a matter of priorities and working it out.

 

Bob

 

 

Mostly agree with you. When a keyboardist keeps his instrument for 3-6 yrs, one can justify the high cost by amortizing it monthly . For example, I have had my $3000 Kronos for 6 years. Thats $41 per month. A tremendous bargain as I am enjoying excellent utility.

 

There is a ton of discretionary credit to use on an expensive keyboard purchase. Big fat credit card lines, lots of free financing incentives. easy returns. Purchasing has gotten easier.

 

For the younger keyboardist, who is flipping his gear every 6 months- 1 year, and has growing family circumstances, its more difficult to plunge into $5k, $6k. Unless they have 300 OMB gigs per year where an arranger is the main tool- then its cost justified.

 

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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Securing a laptop to a B3, were you planning to add midi to the B3 so you can run midi to the laptop and trigger software?

 

As to perceptions about cost of software and hardware all that is irrelevant to this thread.

 

Arrangers are what they are, people buy em and perform live as one person bands. They are happy, their audiences are happy, job done.

 

A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P

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I brought up the B3 because it's got more open space on top for extra hardware. Perhaps a Leslie would be a better choice. Most keyboards today have lots of buttons, knobs, sliders, and aren't level; then you add Velcro, which makes a gummy mess over time. Can the problems be solved? Of course. But it adds to the fiddle factor and cost.

 

It's interesting that some people here seem to disregard the cost, while others thinks it's a pertinent issue. Whether the Genos represents good value at its price is a separate, but related issue. Some can, no doubt, afford it, but may not feel that it's worth it. I don't have an opinion as to value, but the cost would be prohibitive for me.

 

Grey

I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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Unfortunately, that page refers to both "synthesizer workstation" and "arranger workstation" keyboards, so it doesn't clarify the difference between a "workstation" and an "arranger." Or perhaps I should say fortunately, since that confirms what I was saying.

 

The terms "workstation" and "arranger" are not mutually-exclusive either/or terms, because "workstation" refers to capabilities that can exist on any type of keyboard-- synth, arranger, etc.-- namely, recording and mixing of tracks, such as you'd use a DAW for. Some keyboards (like mine) have recording abilities, but they're too simple and basic to replace a DAW; at best, they're okay for quickly recording your musical ideas and performances, but you can't expect to produce a finished song with them, the way you can with a typical arranger workstation or synth workstation.

Michael Rideout
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Another problem with the workstation vs. arranger article is that it says that workstations are for Composers, and arrangers are for Entertainers/Songwriters.

 

Songwriters can also be composers, so the article shot itself in the foot a bit there.

 

 

As a song writer, and knowing other song writers, I can state that the arranger is definitely not their keyboard . I am sure there are some exceptions, but for the most part I do not agree with the article. Sounds like more marketing hoo-hah. Is it a Yamaha sourced article ?

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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