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#2883751 - 10/07/17 08:25 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: burningbusch]
SeaGtGruff Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/14
Posts: 155
Loc: Georgia, USA
Regarding arrangers in general, from what I've heard from OMB dudes who like to play gigs at bars, weddings, etc., people who see a keyboardist with an arranger and using a style for backup seem to think that arrangers are easy to play-- just press a button and you've got instant music, so you don't even have to do any real work. Anyone can do that, right?

That perception probably isn't helped by those old TV ads or how-to videos where some guy shows how easy it is to play "When the Saints Go Marching In" or whatever using just one finger and sounding like an entire jazz band.

But playing an arranger is not nearly as easy and simple as people think, because you must control the key and chord type that the auto-accompaniment is playing in, as well as switching smoothly between the various sections and variations of the style, while also switching between different registrations or voice setups when needed, not to mention working the modulation wheel and/or pitch-bend wheel when needed, all while playing the song without missing a beat. It actually takes a great deal of coordination and experience with the keyboard to pull off without making a stumbling shambles of it.


Edited by SeaGtGruff (10/07/17 08:26 AM)
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#2883772 - 10/07/17 11:05 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: pjd]
KorgyPorky Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/03/17
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: pjd
Originally Posted By: GRollins
Because I'm a simple-minded guitar/bass kinda dude, can someone clarify the difference between the Genos and the Montage? I thought the Montage was the new be-all, end-all, and now this thing comes along. Are they for different applications? Is this the new top o' the line, replacing the Montage? The Montage is expensive enough, and yet this one's even more. What's this thing bring to the table that the Montage ain't already got (aside from more money for fewer keys, vis a vis the Montage 88)?

Grey


Hi Grey --

Short story: Genos is targeted for one market segment and the Montage is targeted for another. Montage is what Yamaha thinks is a synthesizer and Genos is targeted for stage performers, one man bands, in particular. Home players have adopted the Genos because it is a high-end extension of the arranger workstation line.

They share a lot of technical DNA including samples and some voices. Features like voice editing, sequencing and so forth are segment-specific (in Yamaha's view). Quality is high at the top of both product lines.

Choice of Montage vs. Genos comes down to musical goals. What does a player need for performance? The studio? ...

Hope this short answer helps -- pj


Actually the problem is the one-be-all yamaha keyboard..

They refuse to make it..

The one-be-all Yamaha keyboard would have everything the Genos, Montage and their latest CLP piano’s have. and then some more synth engines added.

The hardware would support this.
They have all software required to create this in their database

Sadly they spread their technollogy thin over a few instruments. Or just save it up for the next version of their instruments.


So why are these Genos instruments so expensive?
Simple answer, because the intended buyers are prepared to shelve loads of money, just to enjoy their instrument.


If they ever make the one-and-only- true -be-all-instrument and add 88 keys, wake me up, i would even be willing to spend €5000 on it or more.

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#2883773 - 10/07/17 11:15 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: SeaGtGruff]
KorgyPorky Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/03/17
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: SeaGtGruff
Regarding arrangers in general, from what I've heard from OMB dudes who like to play gigs at bars, weddings, etc., people who see a keyboardist with an arranger and using a style for backup seem to think that arrangers are easy to play-- just press a button and you've got instant music, so you don't even have to do any real work. Anyone can do that, right?

That perception probably isn't helped by those old TV ads or how-to videos where some guy shows how easy it is to play "When the Saints Go Marching In" or whatever using just one finger and sounding like an entire jazz band.

But playing an arranger is not nearly as easy and simple as people think, because you must control the key and chord type that the auto-accompaniment is playing in, as well as switching smoothly between the various sections and variations of the style, while also switching between different registrations or voice setups when needed, not to mention working the modulation wheel and/or pitch-bend wheel when needed, all while playing the song without missing a beat. It actually takes a great deal of coordination and experience with the keyboard to pull off without making a stumbling shambles of it.


If people would only watch the Martin Harris Kraft Genos demo, they would know what it takes to get a great sound out of an arranger..

I think the yamaha divisi ensemble voices are one of the harder things to master for many keyboardplayers..

Also areangers are a very nice tool for mimmicking real acoustic instruments.. but each of those instrumentsrequires both knowledge of the orriginal instrument, as well as its very own authentic playing style to sound realistic..

If you play any of the flutes, guitars, brass or saxaphone sounds like you would play a piano or organ. You would get nowhere near a realistic sound.

Playing an arranger is just as specific as playing a synth, a piano or an organ. they all have their own playstyle.

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#2883774 - 10/07/17 11:25 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Aidan]
KorgyPorky Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/03/17
Posts: 45
Originally Posted By: Aidan
The confusion between workstation and arranger here appears to have been sparked by Yamaha, who are now referring to the Genos as a workstation – a label they never used with Tyros (as far as I know). They applied it to Motif, but dropped the nomenclature from the Montage when they removed the sequencer.

And they took THAT decision because the vast majority of Motif owners were recording onto computer-based DAWs anyway. Maybe a few using them in high-end function bands were running tracks + click on their Motifs but again . . . a minority.

Yamaha is now calling Genos a workstation rather than an arranger because they are trying to refocus sales of that line on a younger demographic – and probably just think that workstation sounds a hipper strap line than arrange.

The potential problem for Yamaha, as I've pointed out elsewhere, is that the younger audience is generally not as cash-rich as its predecessor. And the generation coming after that is used to making music using Ableton Live on a PC using a 200-buck controller with a myriad of flashing lights and pads.

It's a worrying time for the MI manufacturers. Roland's response to this dilemma has been to cut unit costs by largely chasing the cheep and cheerful. It's depressing for us here at KC, but it probably makes good sense economically for them.


I,think they allready marketed the tyros 5 as an arranger workstation.
Actually i am quite sure of that.

However, with the removing of the workstation features from the Montage, there was room for moving the Genos further to the workstation title.

However, they forgot to add some of the main workstation features in that process.
- no daw integration at all.
- no real onboard sound edditing features, only a few basic parameters
- they also didnt pick up the things that where lost with the upgrade from the motif to the montage, like the pattern sequencer.
While other wokstation features like te arpegiator cant even compete with the entry level MX synth series.


To be honest, the title workstation is just marketing, the Genos isnt one bit more workstation then your Tyros 4.

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#2883782 - 10/07/17 12:54 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: KorgyPorky]
stoken6 Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 1543
Originally Posted By: KorgyPorky
The one-be-all Yamaha keyboard


Wouldn't sell, I don't think. High-end workstations (not arrangers) are getting less popular - it's the budget/value end of the market that sells: Roland VR09 being a good example. Nord is an exception, and I think it's because they are premium instruments that aren't difficult to use.

Plus if Yamaha make a "one-be-all" (your phrase) keyboard - is it an arranger? (If so it will put off the pro crowd). Or a workstation without auto-accompaniment?(OMBs won't be interested). Plus we all have different requirements in our "one-be-all" keyboard - for example, I'm not interested in DAW integration. Others would insist on an organ-style action and drawbars. Yet others would want a stage piano and value ease of use - lack of features would be actually be a benefit.

Cheers, Mike.
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#2883785 - 10/07/17 01:46 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: stoken6]
ElmerJFudd Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5465
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Yeah it's a tough call for Yamaha.
Some were thrilled that the Montage was focused on performance and others mocked the simple sequencer and dirth of DAW features. I even read on a thread, granted posted by a curious fellow, that Yamaha should be ashamed of themselves for requiring a laptop with Cubase and removing the DAW due to Japan's power crises and the additional power required to run both devices.

Yes, for me - this Genos without the accompaniment features would be killer, but I'd need it for $2k give or take $200 maximum.

Hard to please them all.
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Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k

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#2883790 - 10/07/17 02:26 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Aidan Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
I have to say that if I was buying top-of-the-line-new, at this moment in time I'd still go with the Korg PA4X over the Genos. Why? It seems better built, is more compact (you could comfortably use it as a top tier in a two-board setup for function work), is sonically at least the equal of the Genos and it is just far more tweakable. If you thought you had arrangers tied down, have a listen to this...

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#2883845 - 10/08/17 04:36 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Aidan]
CalUKGR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/06/17
Posts: 5
I've got my Genos on pre-order, just awaiting delivery later this month. Frankly, I can't wait. I previously had a Tyros 5 and I can honestly say it was a magnificent keyboard. I think Yamaha have finally redesigned their flagship arranger to appeal to a younger, more modern potential buyer, but they're still trying to keep their traditionally older (and very lucrative) market happy, too. At this level (in terms of price) it's a very tricky balancing act.

For all the criticisms of Tyros, Yamaha appeared to do very nicely out of it: this thing went through five iterations! Genos is a 'reboot' of the Tyros brand - slicker, updated, more powerful than ever. They must be doing something right and someone must be enjoying these arrangers!

'Pro' musicians have always been sniffy about arrangers, even while they unselfconsciously advocate for the use of sampled loops in their own work. The irony is delicious. It's true arrangers like Tyros get a bad press and if the endless slew of badly-played 'golden oldie hits of yesteryear' populating YT are anything to judge by - hand on heart - that reputation is often well-deserved. But it's a shame. Tyros, as a keyboard, is so much better than its users often portray it.

I traded-in my Tyros 5 and paid £2500 in cash to get my hands on a Genos. To me, the keyboard is a Swiss Army knife: a completely comprehensive digital workstation. Feature-wise, you'll be hard to put to match many other keyboards to the specs on offer from Genos. It isn't perfect, of course, and I'm sure other keyboards excel in certain areas that might leave Genos lacking, but overall, if you're after a top-of-the-line master keyboard to 'mothership' your home DAW set-up, you can do a lot worse than look to something like Tyros/Genos.

In the end, for all the 'tut-tutting' from seasoned 'pros', these arranger keyboards bring a lot to the table for users with very different needs and priorities. We can't all be highly-trained virtuoso musicians. Many of us don't even read a note of music, so we welcome the assistance (and often the musical education) arrangers like Tyros/Genos can offer us. I just hope the music press/media/YT vloggers give Genos a fair, balanced hearing. Put your prejudices aside and take a good look at the technology on offer here and think about who would want that and why they might be prepared to pay a premium price for it.

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#2883857 - 10/08/17 07:38 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: CalUKGR]
SeaGtGruff Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/14
Posts: 155
Loc: Georgia, USA
I hope you enjoy your new Genos when it finally arrives-- and I imagine you'll be watching the calendar waiting for The Day. smile

Keep us updated with your reactions and impressions to it after you've had a chance to explore its features for a bit!


Edited by SeaGtGruff (10/08/17 07:39 AM)
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#2883877 - 10/08/17 10:43 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: SeaGtGruff]
CalUKGR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/06/17
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: SeaGtGruff
I hope you enjoy your new Genos when it finally arrives-- and I imagine you'll be watching the calendar waiting for The Day. smile

Keep us updated with your reactions and impressions to it after you've had a chance to explore its features for a bit!


Thanks, I will. BTW, I'll report back on the faults and criticisms I have of Genos, too. I had many issues with my Tyros 5 - it was a fantastic keyboard, but of course it had its fair share of problems, too. Which keyboard doesn't?

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#2883884 - 10/08/17 11:23 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: CalUKGR]
ElmerJFudd Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5465
Loc: USA, greater NY area
Some information from Yamaha's press kit on Genos, underlining the stuff I think is cool

Mission Statement: to inspire and empower songwriters to create finished compositions entirely within its intuitive and powerful environment — while at the same time vastly improving the accompaniment features that live keyboard entertainers know and love.

Features and New Stuff: Genos features...
* nearly twice the amount of AWM2 sample ROM as the Tyros5... including gorgeous new Yamaha CFX and C7 concert grand Voices.
* Kino strings, developed with film and TV scoring in mind... stereo techniques — such as panning different players in the string section to different channels
* New brass Voices
* new guitars (acoustic and electric), basses, synth leads and pads, accordions, and more.
* 256 notes of true stereo polyphony
* Articulation Element Modeling (AEM) technology automatically chooses the correct instrument articulation in real time according to the player’s keyboard technique: key velocity, tempo, legato versus staccato, and so on.
* Specific articulations (bowing techniques, guitar slides, brass fall-offs, and much more) using the three Articulation buttons or connected controllers such as pedals.
* new 32-bit DACs on the main outputs
* S/PDIF digital output at 24 bits.
* Expanded DSP, 28 insert effects may be stacked and distributed in any way players need — even all 28 on a single Voice
* Yamaha VCM classic compressors, choruses, rotary speakers, reverbs, and much more with graphical user interfaces that recapture the look of vintage gear. New in this category are Real Reverb, numerous classic guitar and bass amp models, stompboxes, and improved rotary speaker for organ and damper resonance for piano.
* Live Control section provides nine assignable sliders and six assignable knobs. Above these is a crisp OLED strip showing the setting each knob or fader controls at any instant.
*9'' color touchscreen with updated graphics.
* Ten registration buttons (with multiple banks) save and recall virtually all Genos panel settings. Registrations can now be organized into Playlists for quick access at gigs.
* Multi Pads trigger one-shot musical phrases and hits to spice up performances
* 550 Styles from pop to jazz to classical to rock to hip-hop to EDM to regional and world flavors — and beyond.
* FSX semi-weighted premium keyboard action with aftertouch, enhanced touch response for very expressive playing, and high-precision, durable construction.
* Dual Song Player lets the user crossfade smoothly between two audio Songs (or one audio and one MIDI Song).
* Arpeggios add 216 motifs and riffs to performances using MegaVoices, going far beyond the abilities of traditional arpeggiators.
* Vocal Harmony and Synth Vocoder
* Premium Packs to expand Genos’ capability by adding new Voices, Styles, and more. Yamaha Expansion Manager will run on Mac and PC.
* 1.8 GB of internal, non-volatile Flash memory
* WAV, AIFF, SoundFont, and REX support for original Voices and Drum Kits
* XLR-1/4'' combo mic input with phantom power
* Four sub outputs
* Outs to dedicated speaker system L, R, and Sub.
* Stereo Aux Ins
* Sustain, Articulation, and Volume pedal inputs
* Downloadable Cloud Audio Recorder app (iOS) to record via WiFi and share via SoundCloud
* Downloadable SongBook+ app (iOS) for managing scores and lyrics from an iPad
* Optional GNS-MS01 speaker system and L-7B keyboard stand
* 48 9/16" x 5 7/16" x 17 15/16"
* 28lbs 11oz

All artist videos, features videos, and styles videos
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_...ml#product-tabs

This thing is a beast, imho.




_________________________
Live: Yamaha S90ES, Roland VR-700
Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k

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#2883889 - 10/08/17 11:38 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Some information from Yamaha's press kit on Genos, underlining the stuff I think is cool

Mission Statement: to inspire and empower songwriters to create finished compositions entirely within its intuitive and powerful environment — while at the same time vastly improving the accompaniment features that live keyboard entertainers know and love.

Features and New Stuff: Genos features...
* nearly twice the amount of AWM2 sample ROM as the Tyros5... including gorgeous new Yamaha CFX and C7 concert grand Voices.
* Kino strings, developed with film and TV scoring in mind... stereo techniques — such as panning different players in the string section to different channels
* New brass Voices
* new guitars (acoustic and electric), basses, synth leads and pads, accordions, and more.
* 256 notes of true stereo polyphony
* Articulation Element Modeling (AEM) technology automatically chooses the correct instrument articulation in real time according to the player’s keyboard technique: key velocity, tempo, legato versus staccato, and so on.
* Specific articulations (bowing techniques, guitar slides, brass fall-offs, and much more) using the three Articulation buttons or connected controllers such as pedals.
* new 32-bit DACs on the main outputs
* S/PDIF digital output at 24 bits.
* Expanded DSP, 28 insert effects may be stacked and distributed in any way players need — even all 28 on a single Voice
* Yamaha VCM classic compressors, choruses, rotary speakers, reverbs, and much more with graphical user interfaces that recapture the look of vintage gear. New in this category are Real Reverb, numerous classic guitar and bass amp models, stompboxes, and improved rotary speaker for organ and damper resonance for piano.
* Live Control section provides nine assignable sliders and six assignable knobs. Above these is a crisp OLED strip showing the setting each knob or fader controls at any instant.
*9'' color touchscreen with updated graphics.
* Ten registration buttons (with multiple banks) save and recall virtually all Genos panel settings. Registrations can now be organized into Playlists for quick access at gigs.
* Multi Pads trigger one-shot musical phrases and hits to spice up performances
* 550 Styles from pop to jazz to classical to rock to hip-hop to EDM to regional and world flavors — and beyond.
* FSX semi-weighted premium keyboard action with aftertouch, enhanced touch response for very expressive playing, and high-precision, durable construction.
* Dual Song Player lets the user crossfade smoothly between two audio Songs (or one audio and one MIDI Song).
* Arpeggios add 216 motifs and riffs to performances using MegaVoices, going far beyond the abilities of traditional arpeggiators.
* Vocal Harmony and Synth Vocoder
* Premium Packs to expand Genos’ capability by adding new Voices, Styles, and more. Yamaha Expansion Manager will run on Mac and PC.
* 1.8 GB of internal, non-volatile Flash memory
* WAV, AIFF, SoundFont, and REX support for original Voices and Drum Kits
* XLR-1/4'' combo mic input with phantom power
* Four sub outputs
* Outs to dedicated speaker system L, R, and Sub.
* Stereo Aux Ins
* Sustain, Articulation, and Volume pedal inputs
* Downloadable Cloud Audio Recorder app (iOS) to record via WiFi and share via SoundCloud
* Downloadable SongBook+ app (iOS) for managing scores and lyrics from an iPad
* Optional GNS-MS01 speaker system and L-7B keyboard stand
* 48 9/16" x 5 7/16" x 17 15/16"
* 28lbs 11oz

All artist videos, features videos, and styles videos
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_...ml#product-tabs

This thing is a beast, imho.






Which begs the question: should one wait for Korg to equal them, or plunge into a Genos? I'm guessing that Roland has quit the arranger game?
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The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

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#2883890 - 10/08/17 11:45 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: KorgyPorky]
Synthaholic Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: KorgyPorky
Actually the problem is the one-be-all yamaha keyboard..

They refuse to make it..

The one-be-all Yamaha keyboard would have everything the Genos, Montage and their latest CLP piano’s have. and then some more synth engines added.


I hope the forum indulges me posting this again - I do so once a year. Because it's one of the funniest things I've ever read in The Onion, but also because it helps to remember that Yamaha isn't Korg or Roland. They have no core business. They are leaders in many fields and competitive in all.


http://www.theonion.com/article/yamaha-ceo-pleased-with-current-production-of-jet--6871

Yamaha CEO Pleased With Current Production Of Jet Skis, Alto Saxophones, Snowmobiles, Power Generators, Scooters, Golf Carts

HAMAMATSU, JAPAN—Despite concerns over the recent global recession, Yamaha Corporation president Mitsuru Umemura announced last week that he was content with the current level of production of Jet Skis, alto saxophones, snowmobiles, power generators, scooters, and golf carts. "Initially we thought that the declining global market would result in overproduction of synthesizers, PA systems, DVD players, tone generators, and motocross bikes, but in fact our production quotas were almost perfectly attuned to the market in power amplifiers, heart-rate monitors, signal processors, analog mixers, engine oil, microphones, HiFi systems, and grand pianos," said Umemura, who stressed that his company prides itself on attention to detail. "At the Yamaha Corporation we're focused on one thing and one thing alone—quality sound chips, ceiling brackets, editing software, race-kart engines, sport boats, flugelhorns, ATVs, sequencers, outboard motors, conference systems, golf clubs, projectors, MIDI controllers, lamp cartridges, portable recorders, subwoofers, component systems, and motorcycles." The Yamaha Corporation is based in Hamamatsu, Japan.
_________________________
The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

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#2883894 - 10/08/17 12:05 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Synthaholic]
GovernorSilver Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5508
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic

I'm guessing that Roland has quit the arranger game?


https://www.roland.com/us/categories/keyboards/arrangers/
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#2883896 - 10/08/17 12:14 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GovernorSilver]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5508
Loc: Washington DC
As for Korg, their highest end arranger, Pa4X, was released in 2015. Defined Nuanced Control appears to be their version of Yamaha's S.Art/S.Art2.

I've no doubt they'll release another arranger model to compete with Genos. Pa4X already looks impressively spec'd by arranger standards.
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#2883901 - 10/08/17 12:48 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GovernorSilver]
PianoMan51 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 898
Loc: SE NC marsh
Look how far we've come...

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#2883904 - 10/08/17 01:36 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: PianoMan51]
GregC Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5053
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: BurningPianoMan
Look how far we've come...


I would buy one but the keys don't light up in different colors. And there are no dancing girls leaning on the console.

If that happened, I would definitely spend $100 on it wink

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#2883926 - 10/08/17 03:29 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GregC]
ElmerJFudd Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 5465
Loc: USA, greater NY area
It's amazing the mellotron worked mechanically consistent enough to even bring to market.
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Live: Yamaha S90ES, Roland VR-700
Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k

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#2884075 - 10/09/17 09:49 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Jazzmammal Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1800
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Quite a list of features Elmer. Two things jumped out at me are the Playlist and Dual Song Player. Korg has had those on the PA Pro series since my now antique Pa1XPro. It remains to be seen how the Genos is received by the top level pro players in the arranger world. Up to now while the Tyros certainly has it's fans most players at that level prefer the Pa4X.

I laugh (I seem to laugh at lots of things lately) at the phrase "Pro Players" on this forum meaning not arranger users. To those on this forum who think they're the only pro level players in the world need to get out more. Do they really think Peter Bartmans and all the other highly skilled and classically trained pianists who use arrangers are not pro players?

Here's the deal. An arranger is just another tool. Some of my favorite posters in the arranger forums are similar to myself. We have a whole collection of all the killer stage keyboards we all talk about here in addition to having an arranger or two. One guy in particular has the Pa4xPro AND a Kronos 88 AND a Kurz Artis. How's that for a budget? It's all about the best tool for a particular gig.

I've now watched a bunch of Genos vids and man, I love this thing. And I think it's the most beautiful keyboard I've seen lately.

Bob

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#2884165 - 10/10/17 12:32 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Jazzmammal]
Aidan Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
Out of curiosity, I've actually booked a (free) ticket for a Genos demo day over here in the UK next month. However, I'm pretty decided that I will move the Tyros 4 on and grab a Korg PA4X (lightly used would be perfect).

Why? Reviewing demo after demo on YouTube, and comparing specs, it seems to me that the Korg is just more geared towards the pro player. We're beginning to roll out our Joni Mitchell tribute in earnest next year and I need a top board that will do acoustic sounds with maximum realism (sax being primary need, but also doubling guitar parts where necessary). The Tyros is just too large to use in that role. I also get the distinct impression that the Korg styles are less prone to the old fromage as many in the Tyros.

The advantage of the Korg is that as well as OMB purposes, it looks perfectly capable of getting you through a function show on its own, with setlist etc. Even the organ isn't too bad. And, to reiterate, it's a grand less than the Genos.

Affording one will mean something of a cull in the pack, but I can offload the ageing Kurzweil and (with a rather heavier heart), I'm going to also sell my SK2 and pedals. Nice to have, but I never gig with it, and it's a real extravagance. The SK1 will stay for top-tier duties, however, as will the Moog (absolute extravagance but an anniversary present, you may recall!). I'll probably also keep the Casio PX-5S as it's handy as a back-up.
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#2884166 - 10/10/17 01:23 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Jazzmammal]
CalUKGR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/06/17
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: Jazzmammal


I laugh (I seem to laugh at lots of things lately) at the phrase "Pro Players" on this forum meaning not arranger users. To those on this forum who think they're the only pro level players in the world need to get out more. Do they really think Peter Bartmans and all the other highly skilled and classically trained pianists who use arrangers are not pro players?



Peter Baartmans is a fascinating musician. Yes, he'll churn out the cheese if he has to but he's amazingly versatile and his command of the Tyros 5 was masterful. Playing an arranger is a complex business. It's multi-tasking in real-time, like micromanaging a real-time strategy game. You're worrying about several things at once, all while attempting to play with more than mere competence. It takes musical talent, experience and great mental agility to really get these arrangers to shine. I'm nowhere near Baartmans' level, but he does give me a standard to aspire to. I'm looking forward to seeing his first Genos demo video. Martin Harris's first few efforts were interesting, but Baartmans - for my money - will bring the sparkle.

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#2884170 - 10/10/17 03:59 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GovernorSilver]
mojkarma Offline
Member

Registered: 09/18/17
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic

I'm guessing that Roland has quit the arranger game?


https://www.roland.com/us/categories/keyboards/arrangers/



Well, that unfortunately is just a shadow of what Roland once has been on the arranger market. All those keyboards are cheap arrangers using old technology. A few of them are of a little higher quality with better features but nowhere near to what Korg or Yamaha currently offer. The old days when Roland had serious contenders like the G-800 are gone I'm afraid.

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#2884171 - 10/10/17 04:01 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: CalUKGR]
chelsea4023 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 128
Hi,
Your not talking about Peter Baartmen's that one finger chord merchant !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzVJdeazzjc

Chris

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#2884177 - 10/10/17 05:45 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: chelsea4023]
pjd Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/14/12
Posts: 92
Loc: Massachusetts
Stephen Fortner wrote a short blog "Why arranger keyboards matter":

https://www.synth-expert.com/news-blog/2017/10/6/why-arranger-keyboards-matter

Miss you, Stephen!

-- pj

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

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#2884179 - 10/10/17 06:11 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: pjd]
Markay Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2719
Loc: Australia
Excellent article by Stephen, ironically the Ableton Live analogy made it easier for me grasp the midi pattern function that could be applied to sounds of the users choice.

Look forward to the next installment.
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#2884188 - 10/10/17 06:38 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: chelsea4023]
CalUKGR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/06/17
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: chelsea4023
Hi,
Your not talking about Peter Baartmen's that one finger chord merchant !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzVJdeazzjc

Chris


Excellent video! A point well-made!

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#2884298 - 10/10/17 02:06 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: CalUKGR]
Aidan Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 4502
Loc: Stoke-on-Trent, UK
I'm presume it'll be Martin Harris at the Genos demo I'm going to, but if it's Peter, I'll try out my Bert Smorgasbord act on him!!
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#2885189 - 10/15/17 02:40 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Aidan]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but it sounds very cool:


The Ensemble Voices feature re-creates string, brass, and wind ensembles by intuitively mapping the instruments to their appropriate ranges for authentic-sounding ensemble performances. Previously, a Voice such as Brass Quartet would use a sample of four players. If you played two notes, however, you'd suddenly have eight players — which could be cool, but perhaps not entirely realistic. In Genos, Ensemble Voices always give you the same number of players because Yamaha designed into this instrument the musical knowledge of a professional music arranger. Play two notes with a Brass Quartet Ensemble Voice, and Genos will intelligently send the trumpets to the top notes and the trombones to the lower notes. We love it!
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#2885191 - 10/15/17 03:24 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Synthaholic]
konaboy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 916
at first i thought it sounded cool too, the same feature existed on tyros 5 for brass and string ensembles, but it's not perfect. consider when two members of a string quartet stop playing, that leaves just two instruments playing. this is not possible on tyros, it will always play 4 voices, regardless of how many notes you press.

Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but it sounds very cool:


The Ensemble Voices feature re-creates string, brass, and wind ensembles by intuitively mapping the instruments to their appropriate ranges for authentic-sounding ensemble performances. Previously, a Voice such as Brass Quartet would use a sample of four players. If you played two notes, however, you'd suddenly have eight players — which could be cool, but perhaps not entirely realistic. In Genos, Ensemble Voices always give you the same number of players because Yamaha designed into this instrument the musical knowledge of a professional music arranger. Play two notes with a Brass Quartet Ensemble Voice, and Genos will intelligently send the trumpets to the top notes and the trombones to the lower notes. We love it!
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#2885192 - 10/15/17 03:28 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: CalUKGR]
konaboy Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 916
Could you please elaborate on the issues with T5, since I'm in the market for one...
Originally Posted By: CalUKGR


Thanks, I will. BTW, I'll report back on the faults and criticisms I have of Genos, too. I had many issues with my Tyros 5 - it was a fantastic keyboard, but of course it had its fair share of problems, too. Which keyboard doesn't?
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