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#2881904 - 09/27/17 11:29 AM Expression Pedal Summary
Markyboard Offline
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Here's my first second attempt at an Expression Pedal Summary. I think it covers most Expression and active CV pedals we've talked about, and then some. It may be somewhat cryptic but hopefully useful in steering folks to pedals compatible with their keyboard of choice. I didn't include price as that info varies and can easily be obtained. I welcome inputs, corrections etc. Also if someone would like to host the next version Excel spreadsheet for me that would be great.

Shared Pedal Summary Ver3

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#2881910 - 09/27/17 12:14 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
AnotherScott Offline
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Excellent work!

Other criteria that might matter to people (perhaps these additions could be crowd-sourced, assuming you don't have immediate access to all these pedals)... the angle of the pedal at full off and full on (which, between them, I think would also let you know the total travel, for those who prefer short travel or long travel pedals).
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#2881918 - 09/27/17 01:34 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Online   content
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I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H. From what I've been able to gather, the working resistance seems to be 0-20k, but that seems to be a relatively narrow (~30-45 degrees) portion of the total rotation of the pot (assumed to be 100k, but no guarantees). I have been unable to find any information regarding the connections.

One poster in my thread on the matter felt that the pedal had a relatively short travel, subjectively.

I remember beginning investigations into a pedal for my Yamaha--might have been the FC7 that you list above--but got distracted and never followed through. If I get back to that and if my Yamaha takes that particular pedal, then your notes will come in quite handy, so thanks.

Grey
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#2881923 - 09/27/17 02:04 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott


Other criteria that might matter to people (perhaps these additions could be crowd-sourced, assuming you don't have immediate access to all these pedals)... the angle of the pedal at full off and full on (which, between them, I think would also let you know the total travel, for those who prefer short travel or long travel pedals).


Thanks Scott. I definitely agree with the usefulness of listing the rotational angle range. Unfortunately this info is not readily available or easy to gather.

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#2881924 - 09/27/17 02:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H.

Grey


That looks to be a sustain pedal.

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#2881926 - 09/27/17 02:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
JerryA Offline
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That chart is so helpful. cool


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#2881931 - 09/27/17 02:54 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: JerryA]
hardware Offline
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Think I owned all of them at one time or another.
Great info there for a sticky IMO.

Bravo
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#2881934 - 09/27/17 03:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
Markyboard Offline
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Thanks guys!

Grey-
Just saw your DS-1H thread from a few days ago. Sorry I missed all the fun but looks like Scott dug up some some really good info.

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#2881939 - 09/27/17 03:27 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
marino Offline
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Very useful. Thanks!! like

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#2881941 - 09/27/17 03:34 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
GRollins Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: GRollins
I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H.

Grey


That looks to be a sustain pedal.


Silly me...
(...you can't make it a general pedal chart?)

Grey
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#2881966 - 09/27/17 05:42 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
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#2881967 - 09/27/17 05:53 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Al Coda Offline
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twothumbs

coolness !

thx

A.C.

P.S.:
According to Markay´s POST the Hammnond EXP-50 is 10K (lin) if true.

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#2881971 - 09/27/17 06:17 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
Markay Offline
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The M-Audio wiper wiring is switchable. Maybe it would be easier to categorise the pedals as type 1 or type 2 or both (switchable).

Also regarding throw, there are two criteria, pedal range, possibly group into short (e.g M-Audio), medium or long (e.g. Hammond EXP-50) AND usable throw e.g Boss FV500L - 70%, M-Audio and Hammond - 100%.
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#2881984 - 09/27/17 08:30 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markay]
MoodyBluesKeys Online   content
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Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.
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#2881999 - 09/27/17 10:55 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
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Nice work Mark!
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#2882012 - 09/28/17 03:49 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda

According to Markay´s POST the Hammnond EXP-50 is 10K (lin) if true.


Got it - thanks!

Originally Posted By: Markay
The M-Audio wiper wiring is switchable. Maybe it would be easier to categorise the pedals as type 1 or type 2 or both (switchable).

Also regarding throw, there are two criteria, pedal range, possibly group into short (e.g M-Audio), medium or long (e.g. Hammond EXP-50) AND usable throw e.g Boss FV500L - 70%, M-Audio and Hammond - 100%.


I like the Type I/II suggestion - great idea. I'll define those up front (i.e I = wiper to tip, II = wiper to ring, I/II = reverse switch/jumper provided). Now I can eliminate the reverse column. Btw I obviously messed up the M-audio -good catch.

Regarding the throw I suggest we include the clear/obvious characteristics in the comments column (FC-7 long throw, EV5, short throw etc.) We might even include "noticeable physical dead region" for the FCV500-L and others without trying to get specific on amounts.


Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.


I'm not sure what this means other then maybe suggesting the Kurzweil (which one?) is expecting a pedal with a 10K pot? If the PC3 variety please see my cryptic note in the table. It appears (based on my testing this week) this will work well with any Type I Pedal independent of pot value.

Thanks all - great inputs!

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#2882022 - 09/28/17 04:34 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Great work! Regarding hosting of the spreadsheet, a publicly shared Google Docs spreadsheet might be an easy way to keep it online and always up to date.
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#2882035 - 09/28/17 05:44 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
GRollins Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.


I'm not sure what this means other then maybe suggesting the Kurzweil (which one?) is expecting a pedal with a 10K pot?




All pots are not created equal. There are numerous types, but the two most common are log (short for logarithmic) and linear. If you take the resistance of the pot, say 10k, and start twisting the shaft, how much resistance goes by per degree of turn? A linear taper pot will do pretty much what you would expect--if you turn it half way, you'll get half the resistance. 3/4 will increase/decrease (depending on which way you're turning the shaft) the resistance by 3/4. A log taper pot will increase or decrease logarithmically, with most of the resistance occurring in the first or last portion of the turn. This is important for use in places like volume controls, because the human ear responds in a logarithmic fashion. If you use a linear pot for a volume control, you'd get all your volume in the first quarter-turn or so. Yes, people do this. Guitar and bass amps are notorious for using linear pots to control volume because the unwary user turns the knob to, say, 3, covers his ears, and says, "If it's this loud at 3, imagine how loud it will be when I turn it to 10!" not realizing that it's already pretty much maxed out. If you use a log pot, you'll get more-or-less equal numbers of decibels per degree of turn. Stereos generally use log pots in their volume controls--at least the decent ones.

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey
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#2882044 - 09/28/17 06:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey


Hi Grey-

Totally agree. The reason I didn't include this is that every expression pedal listed uses a linear pot- period. I haven't found one that didn't. Even the ones that include separate volume I/O use linear pots.

As you indicated volume pedals typically use logarithmic pots - but apparently not the ones that serves as combined expression/volume pedals. I believe this is due to cost and complexities of including 2 separate pots. I also don't believe there are a whole lot of dual- ganged pots where one side is linear and the other log.

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#2882045 - 09/28/17 06:20 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Markyboard Offline
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Btw - now that we're including some descriptive info on the throw I'm happy to include the DS-1H and the FC3A as these work exactly the same as an expression pedal, albeit with a really short throw. I'll include a comment that these are used for half damper control.

20K pot for the DS-1H?

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#2882052 - 09/28/17 06:39 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mighty Ferguson
Great work! Regarding hosting of the spreadsheet, a publicly shared Google Docs spreadsheet might be an easy way to keep it online and always up to date.


Thanks MF- will further investigate.

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#2882054 - 09/28/17 06:43 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Regarding the throw I suggest we include the clear/obvious characteristics in the comments column (FC-7 long throw, EV5, short throw etc.) We might even include "noticeable physical dead region" for the FCV500-L and others without trying to get specific on amounts.


Agreed, I hate the thought of having to get a protractor out and accurately measuring throw. Having said that I recently saw a diagram for a pedal that did include a throw angle diagram measured from the 'up' position.

This table is great contribution to the body of knowledge Mark, thanks for taking the time to put it together.

Maybe on a forum the best way to update is to just republish the relevant section as there are updates, similar to the way Vin (Tafkat) over at GS does with the interface latency database.
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#2882055 - 09/28/17 06:44 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Totally agree. The reason I didn't include this is that every expression pedal listed uses a linear pot- period.
...
As you indicated volume pedals typically use logarithmic pots - but apparently not the ones that serves as combined expression/volume pedals.

Very interesting! And while Gray points out the limitations of linear pots, it seems to not really be an issue with expression pedals (at least people don't generally seem to complain about things like uneven response, except when they are using the "wrong" pedal), so I guess the "problem" of linear operation not matching what our ears expect is "solved" by proper interpretation/mapping of the pedal physical locations to the 128 MIDI values.


Originally Posted By: Markyboard
I'm happy to include the DS-1H and the FC3A as these work exactly the same as an expression pedal, albeit with a really short throw.

Yup, and that they spring back. Using a MIDI Solutions box, I once mapped a continuous sustain pedal to pitch bend for that reason. I couldn't spare the hand for pitch bend, and it was sloppy/unnatural to use a traditional expression pedal that had to manually be brought back to true pitch.
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#2882056 - 09/28/17 06:50 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
Skinny Offline
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This is very cool, Markyboard. cool like
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#2882059 - 09/28/17 06:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
MoodyBluesKeys Online   content
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I just added the 10 K value for completion of the table (since it doesn't show a value, like the ones in the upper part. This value has been verified by checking - I have four CC1 pedals.
Added only in the interest of helping complete the table.
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#2882060 - 09/28/17 06:57 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
GRollins Online   content
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I cannot verify that 20k figure. I read it on the web and I tend to be leery of stuff I see on the web until I figure out how good the source is. There are butt-loads of people out there who think they're "experts," but don't know squat. The site someone linked to in my thread indicated that the pedal had 20k of swept resistance in actual use, but it's only a small amount of the total value of the pot.

The Korg Kronos is supposed to automatically sense when a DS-1H is hooked up, at which point you can undertake some sort of calibration procedure. My homebrew device has yet to trigger the Kronos's automatic recognition. I'm going to try something else as soon as I get time, but I'm tied up doing a bunch of other things. If I had an actual pedal on hand, I'd be happy to test it for you, but I'm trying to save that money for a (possible, maybe, cross fingers) Yamaha rack unit to beef up my MM8. I may not even need the pedal. I've got one place in one song that I want to try it on. If I don't like the result, then it's just going to gather dust, so I'm reluctant to put money into the pedal unless it's going to actually get used, hence my experimentation.

The only non-effects pedal I have on hand is an external switch that goes with the BOSS DD-7. I can't remember what it's called at the moment. If info on that will help, let me know and I'll see what makes it tick. They may be using an FET, rather than just a simple switch, but I don't know that, so don't print it without verification. As far as I know, it doesn't work with anything but BOSS pedals so it may not be of interest.

Grey
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#2882064 - 09/28/17 07:10 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins


All pots are not created equal. There are numerous types, but the two most common are log (short for logarithmic) and linear. If you take the resistance of the pot, say 10k, and start twisting the shaft, how much resistance goes by per degree of turn? A linear taper pot will do pretty much what you would expect--if you turn it half way, you'll get half the resistance. 3/4 will increase/decrease (depending on which way you're turning the shaft) the resistance by 3/4. A log taper pot will increase or decrease logarithmically, with most of the resistance occurring in the first or last portion of the turn. This is important for use in places like volume controls, because the human ear responds in a logarithmic fashion. If you use a linear pot for a volume control, you'd get all your volume in the first quarter-turn or so. Yes, people do this. Guitar and bass amps are notorious for using linear pots to control volume because the unwary user turns the knob to, say, 3, covers his ears, and says, "If it's this loud at 3, imagine how loud it will be when I turn it to 10!" not realizing that it's already pretty much maxed out. If you use a log pot, you'll get more-or-less equal numbers of decibels per degree of turn. Stereos generally use log pots in their volume controls--at least the decent ones.

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey


I think it is important to distinguish between the needs of a Guitarist and keyboard player. As Markyboard points out all the pedals that one might use with a keyboard have linear pots.

Few keyboard players are using these pedals to modulate volume into an amp.

More important is their use as a true expression pedal plugged into the expression input of a keyboard to provide swell control forva clonewheel, to fade between layers and splits, modulate other sounds including synths or to vary volume internally between different sounds, e.g. AP and EP.

Where volume modulation of a board's output is required some pedals, like the FV500L, can serve a dual function as an inline Volume pedal.

Hence they are all linear pots. For software users virtually all hosts, DAW's and some VI's provide the functionality to convert the linear input to logarithmic, exponential or to otherwise customise the response curve. VB3 for example provides all three options.

The only value in including pedals with expoential or logarithmic pots would be as a warning to steer clear unless you have a special need for either of these.
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#2882069 - 09/28/17 07:21 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
I just added the 10 K value for completion of the table (since it doesn't show a value, like the ones in the upper part. This value has been verified by checking - I have four CC1 pedals.
Added only in the interest of helping complete the table.


Doh! facepalm
Until now I was unaware of (or totally forgot) this pedal. Will definitely include in table.

Thanks!

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#2882072 - 09/28/17 07:43 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
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#2882079 - 09/28/17 07:59 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Doh! facepalm
Until now I was unaware of (or totally forgot) this pedal. Will definitely include in table.

Thanks!


Just a note ...
I tried downloading your pics of the table in 1st post and open in Windows which unfortunately doesn´t work.
I was about creating an editable document in Open Office to make a PDF later.
It would be great to have a Open Office-Calc (or Excel) chart to make PDF updates.

smile

A.C.

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#2882083 - 09/28/17 08:10 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Delaware Dave]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave

Well like a few of these comparisons floating around it doesn't address wiring which is the first thing you need to know to match it to your keyboard.

The SOS thread is the most complete that I have found but Markyboard's comparison provides more detail and is up to date.
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#2882089 - 09/28/17 08:34 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Delaware Dave]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave


Thanks Dave - I've run across other lists but not this particular one. This did remind me that the FV500-L has dual pots - will update. Also the Pigtronix states 20K in the description, but 25K in the spec. Went with the 25K.

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#2882099 - 09/28/17 09:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
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Thanks, Mark! Though I do find it funny that you created this on a computer and then shared it via photos of the printout. wink

I do agree that putting the info somewhere like a Google Doc would be useful.

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#2882291 - 09/29/17 06:39 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
wjones Offline
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Posts: 40
This is great (and timely) information. Thanks, Markyboard!

I have a Roland EV-5 and a Yamaha FC7, but honestly I don't like either of them.

I've been looking around for something with some more heft and a better feel without a huge footprint, but haven't found any expression pedal products that interest me. I will now google all the products on your spreadsheet.

I like the look of the Ernie Ball volume pedals (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EB6181) and am considering wiring one to work as an expression pedal. Is anyone else on the forum doing that?
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#2882296 - 09/29/17 07:02 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
wjones Offline
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Hmmm... of your fine list, the Korg XVP20 seems like it might be what I'm looking for. Anyone using one of these with a Nord?
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#2882297 - 09/29/17 07:03 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: wjones

I have a Roland EV-5 and a Yamaha FC7, but honestly I don't like either of them.

What is it you don't like about them?

The EV-5 is wiper on tip, the FC7 is wiper on ring. Are you changing the 'polarity' expression pedal setting in the Electro to suit each pedal?
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#2882316 - 09/29/17 07:47 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Delaware Dave Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave


Thanks Dave - I've run across other lists but not this particular one. This did remind me that the FV500-L has dual pots - will update. Also the Pigtronix states 20K in the description, but 25K in the spec. Went with the 25K.
Yeah, I found what appears to be some inaccuracies in some of their specs as well.....
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#2882322 - 09/29/17 08:09 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Delaware Dave]
GRollins Online   content
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Although you can always pad a pot out with a fixed resistor to any desired value, it's worth noting that pots trend heavily towards a 1, 2, 5 progression (yes, there are other values, but...), i.e.:

1k
2k
5k
10k
20k
50k
100k...etc.

With that in mind, I'd suggest that it's more likely that the pot in question is, perhaps, a 20k pot.

Unless...they're doing something like this Korg pedal that I'm trying to figure out, where they take a larger value pot and restrict the travel so you're only using a portion of the pot's total value.

I'm not familiar with the pedal in question--just musing out loud from an electronics point of view.

Grey
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#2882328 - 09/29/17 08:19 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markay]
wjones Offline
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Both function fine. It's an angle and feel issue, I think.

The EV-5 served me well for almost 20 years, but I wanted something the felt better to use and had a better build quality. So I moved the EV-5 onto my guitar pedalboard and picked up the FC7 (because so many sing its praises).

I've played with all the adjustments on the FC7 (for angle and such) and I simply don't enjoy using it.

The Korg XVP20 looks might nice. Pricey, but nice. I'm curious to know if anyone is using one with a Nord- my Stage 3 hopefully will be here in a few weeks, and I'd love to upgrade this pedal before it arrives.
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#2882338 - 09/29/17 08:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
Markay Offline
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Seems like a long throw pedal like the FC7 is not to your liking. I like long throw pedals as they are closest to the classic Hammond swell pedal.

If a short throw pedal is more to your liking the M-Audio EXP sends midi over its full range of travel, and is one of the lowest cost pedals available.
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#2882370 - 09/29/17 11:01 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: wjones


The Korg XVP20 looks might nice. Pricey, but nice. I'm curious to know if anyone is using one with a Nord- my Stage 3 hopefully will be here in a few weeks, and I'd love to upgrade this pedal before it arrives.


This one's perplexing. The description states 50k-100k or from the manual:
Input impedance: 50K or greater.

I have no idea what this means - Is it the volume or expression side? Both?
Pot value? Wtf? Hoping someone gets their hands on one to measure.

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#2882379 - 09/29/17 11:41 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markay]
wjones Offline
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I believe that's a big part of the problem. I learned to play "organ" on the Roland pedal (not a real Hammond), so the FC7 has a very different throw than what I'm used to. It also has that extra bit of volume left that you have to press to get- which seems cool, but for me, it makes the top volume feel a bit squishy rather than hitting a harder, more satisfying maximum throw.
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#2882389 - 09/29/17 12:38 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
mate stubb Online   content
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Originally Posted By: wjones
the FC7 has a very different throw than what I'm used to. It also has that extra bit of volume left that you have to press to get- which seems cool, but for me, it makes the top volume feel a bit squishy rather than hitting a harder, more satisfying maximum throw.


Yes, that's lame. Fortunately, there is a screw adjustment under the pedal that allows you to dial that out. Turn the recessed screw labeled Spring Point Adjust fully CCW to disable the spring.
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#2882414 - 09/29/17 03:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: mate stubb]
wjones Offline
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Thanks for the tip! I'll crank that puppy down and see how I like it. Unfortunately, I think the throw will be (or at least seem) even longer.

I see a Korg XVP-20 in my future. I'll even test the impedance when it comes in... for science!
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#2882416 - 09/29/17 04:01 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
mate stubb Online   content
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Embrace the longer throw. It's not even as long as on a real Hammond. You don't typically spend a lot of time pumping a volume pedal back and forth, and longer throw == more precision to get the value you need.

I used to have the short throw Roland pedals and grew to hate them. The only thing I found them good for was wah wah.
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#2882424 - 09/29/17 04:47 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: mate stubb]
burningbusch Online   content
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I have the Roland RV-7. It does minimum control. Very nice pedal. Long throw. My Yamaha pedals have gotten scratchy over time. The RV-7 is not sealed but nicely enclosed. I just opened mine after many years of it's very clean inside. Good organ expression pedal. Hate the EV-5 in comparison.

Busch.

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#2882430 - 09/29/17 06:43 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: burningbusch]
hardware Offline
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I used an EV-5 for years.
When it arrived I was pissed on how small it was, but it's been 100% accurate hitting the desired MIDI CC points on larger controllers, so I kept it to kick on ducking delay AUX Channels for solos.
I could pick 47 for the perfect mix of Delay and MIDI Monitors showed it's dead on balls accurate every time.
After a few weeks of Source Audio pedals I'm finally getting used to their skinny but decent size.
Just wish every Expression Pedal was the size of the FC7 and had that Anaconda mouth...
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#2882496 - 09/30/17 09:21 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
Markyboard Offline
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Hey guys-
I'm back from NY and I'm working on an update - should be ready early next week.

Busch- thanks for the reverse switch presence (I assume you meant EV-7) I also assume the EV-7 is wired same as EV-5 (Wiper to Tip). Appreciate if you can confirm

Does anyone know how the cable on the Crumar pedals are wired? Hoping Andrea is keeping tabs on this thread

Also Markay advised printing to pdf which I should then be able to post. It'll be great to be back on the bleeding edge of technology (Joe) facepalm grin

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#2882545 - 09/30/17 03:50 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Karl Schmeer Offline
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Nice Work Markyboard!!
I have a Proline that I picked up as a spare, if you would like to add it to the list. I can ohm it out.


BTW Thanks again for the capacitor supplier link. I just received 500 pcs and they seem to be just what I need.
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#2882546 - 09/30/17 04:01 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Markyboard Offline
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Happy I could help Karl and absolutely I'll include the Proline. The intent is to develop and maintain a comprehensive list.

Thanks twothumbs

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#2882549 - 09/30/17 04:13 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Karl Schmeer Offline
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Ok be back soon with specs
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#2882560 - 09/30/17 04:44 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
OB Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Does anyone know how the cable on the Crumar pedals are wired?


Yamaha FC7 works perfectly on Crumar Mojo 61, so that'd be wiper on ring.

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#2882574 - 09/30/17 06:17 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
OB Dave Offline
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Also, Hammond EXP-20 is 10k ohms, wiper on tip.

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#2882587 - 09/30/17 08:56 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: hardware
I used an EV-5 for years.
When it arrived I was pissed on how small it was, but it's been 100% accurate hitting the desired MIDI CC points on larger controllers ...


I´m using the same EV5 I bought when I got my old MK80 somewhere 1989!
The EV5 works like day one here and even I toured w/ it for decades.
It´s small, it looks cheap, it´s plastic,- but it still WORKS!

In addition I use 2 Yammi FC7 which I bought together w/ my KX88 in 1987, so they are older and still WORK too.

2 of my MOOG 1120 CV pedals and the OBX pedal I own work flawlessly,- that´s antique compared to EV5 or FC7.

The latest I bought in 2011 are Fatar VP-25 for KURZ PC361 and they work perfect up to now.

I dunno what people do with their pedals destroying ´em quickly, but I can imagine when organ is the main axe, a pot might wear out earlier (depending on pot quality) and mechanics too.

That said, I managed cracking a portion of a tooth from the cogwheel of a MOOG 1120 mechanics and these pedals are build like tanks.
So I think, bad luck is a factor too !

A.C.

P.S.:
I´m searching a cogwheel for a MOOG 1120 pedal.
You might imagine, in germany, I have a problem finding something w/ the same count of teeth, grub scew and fitting the diameter (in inches) of an Allen Bradley 100K pot´s shaft.

When someone knows a ressource for a replacement, original NOS, used or new,- please PM.

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#2882593 - 09/30/17 10:47 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but do we know whether the specs for those models have been consistent throughout their run?

In the related category of Volume Pedals (ones that apply attenuation to audio signal vs. ones that augment volume via MIDI CC), I am pretty sure that impedance and other specs have changed over the years on several models without a change in model designation.
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#2882595 - 09/30/17 11:21 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mark Schmieder]
Karl Schmeer Offline
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Okay I took my 2017 Proline Expression pedal apart and checked everything w/ an ohmmeter just to be sure.


Proline Audio: Standard Model

Has Polarity Switch On Bottom and minimum adjustment on left side

Sweep Potentiometer: 10 K

Jack Connection: TRS Wiper on T or R Depending on Polarity Switch

Minimum Adjust Potentiometer: 50 K

I also took my 2010 EV-5 apart and compared the two.
Electrically they are almost identical except the Proline
has a 1K resistor in series w/ wiper of the sweep potentiometer. And the EV-5 has no polarity switch.

For Grins, I also measured the travel of all my pedals.

Proline 1.5"
Roland EV-5 1.2"
Yamaha FC-7 3.2"

Hope this Helps smirk
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#2882598 - 10/01/17 12:33 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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I bet that was a bit of a surprise, but the differences were slight.

The travel of the Yamaha vs. the Roland is also much greater than I realized. I'm one of the "long travel" people, and actually like the EXP for my Hammond XK-1c the best of all.
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#2882635 - 10/01/17 08:26 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mark Schmieder]
Markyboard Offline
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OK I think I got this shared Google Docs thing happening after recovering my account from years ago.

Shared Pedal Summary Ver3


Let me know if I missed anyone's comments and continue to provide corrections/additions. Still missing some data so if you have it please pass it on.




Edited by Markyboard (10/01/17 09:16 AM)

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#2882637 - 10/01/17 08:33 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mark Schmieder]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but do we know whether the specs for those models have been consistent throughout their run?

In the related category of Volume Pedals (ones that apply attenuation to audio signal vs. ones that augment volume via MIDI CC), I am pretty sure that impedance and other specs have changed over the years on several models without a change in model designation.



You raise a good point Mark although I haven't seen anything with expression pedals in this regard. Not saying it hasn't happened, I just haven't run across it in any of my research. I did find several occurrences of volume pedals where they changed the pot value. Must be those guitarist who can never make up their mind . grin

I suggest if we do run across this we can always note it in the comments.

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#2882648 - 10/01/17 09:48 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Theo Verelst Online   confused
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I didn't know that about the Kurz pedal, but I'vebeen too busy with the sound to care much about pedals. I used to have a pedal I made myself with a keyboard that didn't originally have an input for it, which was cool to compare with organ playing. I'd say normally there's a difference between a volume and an expression pedal, but hey, we're not infants, so maybe that's not the most important.

It's also, just like with the "keyboard" discussions, questionable if that hidden glorious sound is coming to come from adding a proper volume pedal to an organ which is a clone, because normally the sound isn't going to get much of a different character, unless you want to use the pedal as some digital hurdygurdy playing device, like on the PC3 there are sounds where turning the mod wheel generates a idea reminiscent of bowing a string.

T.

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#2882652 - 10/01/17 10:15 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Theo Verelst]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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#2882654 - 10/01/17 11:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Markyboard Offline
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Got it - Description on one vendor's site shows "A custom potentiometer"?

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#2882686 - 10/01/17 03:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
brenner13 Offline
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Recently preordered Studiologic's FP/50. Haven't a clue about its specs, just looks like an extremely long throw and moderately priced. Expected to arrive mid-January.
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#2882690 - 10/01/17 04:07 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: brenner13]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: brenner13
Recently preordered Studiologic's FP/50. Haven't a clue about its specs, just looks like an extremely long throw and moderately priced. Expected to arrive mid-January.


Got it- and found the specs. Thanks!

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#2882693 - 10/01/17 04:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
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Originally Posted By: OB Dave
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Does anyone know how the cable on the Crumar pedals are wired?


Yamaha FC7 works perfectly on Crumar Mojo 61, so that'd be wiper on ring.
That's interesting, since the Mojo 61 manual recommends a 10k pedal, but the FC7 is 50k.

Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
I just got a Quik Lok pedal with a switchable polarity:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0049B3GFC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Does it feel like a long throw? If you want to try it with a Mojo 61, you know what to do. wink I'd like to try it myself.

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#2882700 - 10/01/17 04:54 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Theo Verelst]
OB Dave Offline
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I honestly wouldn't worry too much about differences in resistance value for a keyboard expression pedal. Internal to the keyboard there will be a resistor in series with the supply voltage to protect against a dead short at the connector. This would typically be in the couple-hundred-ohms range. So the difference between a 10k or 50k pot is going to be pretty negligible. 97 percent-ish of the voltage voltage drop will occur within the wiper's travel, which is what will be read by the analog-to-digital converter that's reading expression pedal position.



Edited by OB Dave (10/01/17 05:00 PM)
Edit Reason: added a sexy pic

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#2882728 - 10/01/17 08:14 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Dave]
MoodyBluesKeys Online   content
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Sensitivity to resistance probably depends on the particular keyboard (and circuits involved).
I do know that, on a Kurzweil PC3 series, all other things the same, using a 25k pot instead of the specified 10k pot does make a difference. Not so much in the total amount of volume change, but the 25k concentrates most of the change in a smaller part of the travel (from max volume to min volume). More pleasant to use, with a larger travel range.

Electronic theory would be that perhaps the input impedance of the circuitry in the PC3 series is low enough on the connection to the pot wiper that the higher resistance pot causes the voltage on the wiper to decrease more rapidly as the wiper goes from maximum voltage to minimum voltage. (If one draws a schematic of this, it would show as an additional resistance between the pot wiper and ground, which would be in parallel with the resistance of the pot).
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#2882746 - 10/01/17 11:05 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Markay Offline
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My experience was similar to yours Jim with the FC7 plugged into an M-Audio Axiom. It maxed out at about 75% of travel and was constantly changing values if held in between min and max - jumping from 47 to 48 and then down to 46 for examp!e.

With the M-Audio and Hammond EXP-50 pedals midi was read smoothly from min to max over full pedal travel and rock stable in between. That's my requirement for an expression pedal to be described as working perfectly.
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#2882754 - 10/01/17 11:51 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markay]
OB Dave Offline
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Based on this I am guessing the problem you experienced is mostly likely caused by the Axiom expecting the Roland wiring convention. Some keyboards have a menu option to allow you to select which pedal wiring standard.

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#2882756 - 10/02/17 01:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Dave]
Markay Offline
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No the above was with an adaptor, I was fortunate to receive a early production one from our new supplier, without was the same as described in the link, 67 to 127 received.
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#2882779 - 10/02/17 06:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: OB Dave
I honestly wouldn't worry too much about differences in resistance value for a keyboard expression pedal. Internal to the keyboard there will be a resistor in series with the supply voltage to protect against a dead short at the connector. This would typically be in the couple-hundred-ohms range. So the difference between a 10k or 50k pot is going to be pretty negligible. 97 percent-ish of the voltage voltage drop will occur within the wiper's travel, which is what will be read by the analog-to-digital converter that's reading expression pedal position.


OK - now that we have a pretty good summary chart, time to draw some conclusions. Starting with....

1) I'm an idiot blush. I previously stated (or supported) that a 50K pot pedal used where a 10K pot pedal is called for would reach maximum value at its 10k point and the rest was dead spaced. NOT TRUE! The pedal interface A/D cares about voltage, not resistance. The wiper at the half-way point of the pedal yields the same voltage whether the pot is 10K,25K, 50K or 5 Million K. As Dave pointed out this assumes keyboard internal resistor is much smaller then the pot value - which it is (better be). Yay OB Dave twothumbs

2) I believe someone mentioned concern for damaging the keyboard if the wrong pedal is used. It won't as long as it's a passive (expression) pedal. An active CV pedal can definitely do damage. All expression pedals get down very close to 0 ohms at their minimum setting. Some pedals have their own short circuit protection resistor - but again ground at the pedal input should not hurt the keyboard - otherwise it's a crappy design and you don't want it anyway laugh

3) I just tested/retested 3 different boards using a F-7, FV500-L and EV-5 while monitoring the resulting midi data out of the pedal. As long as the connection of the tip/ring/sleeve is as the keyboard expects all worked over the full range - ALMOST. The 10K pedals fell short by 2-3 counts at the top of their range (pedal maxed out) on my M-audio controller and Poly Evolver. Still this supports OB Daves contention.

4)

Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Sensitivity to resistance probably depends on the particular keyboard (and circuits involved).


Totally agree. Also not all FC-7s are created equal. I'm seeing more dead space in one vs another - still not a lot. There's error with the pot values and minor physical property inconsistencies. Btw Not sure why your PC3 behaves different then mine. All 3 pedals worked with mine with sweep resulting in all 128 values.


Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys

Electronic theory would be that perhaps the input impedance of the circuitry in the PC3 series is low enough on the connection to the pot wiper that the higher resistance pot causes the voltage on the wiper to decrease more rapidly as the wiper goes from maximum voltage to minimum voltage. (If one draws a schematic of this, it would show as an additional resistance between the pot wiper and ground, which would be in parallel with the resistance of the pot).


Again not seeing this on mine. It's a linear pot and mine behaves in a linear fashion - best I can tell. But you do bring up a good point....

5) Larger pot values are harder to control and need more "throw" for better accuracy/operation. I think that's why you don't see 50K pots being used in short throw pedals. Think about trimmer pots that use 25 turns. If the whole range was covered in 1 turn it would be near impossible to dial in on a specific resistance (as I found when modding my Andromeda pedal interface).

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#2882824 - 10/02/17 08:50 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
MoodyBluesKeys Online   content
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The 25K pot did travel from MIDI value 0 to 127 - but went from one extreme to the other in considerably less than the full physical throw of the pedal.
The 10K pot goes from MIDI 0 to 127 - and does so over the full physical throw of the pedal.
I agree that the varying voltage on the wiper is the key, but that voltage can also vary depending on what is connected to that wiper.

Come to think of it, it has been a while since I swapped out the 25K pots (these were inside Fatar branded pedals that are the same size and shape as the Kurzweil CC1). I use the pedals on both my collection of PC3 and my collection of PC2 (for that matter also on a Hammond SK1). It is possible that the difference might have been on the PC2. I just know that in order to get pedals that I could connect any pedal to any of my keyboards, I had to change the two 25K to 10K so that all four of them were 10K. The 25K worked on some but not all of the boards (this was before I got the SK1, don't know about it).

I no longer have the 25K pots (and changing them was not the easiest thing to do - just finding 10K that would physically fit and making the gear line up on the pot so that it engaged the track on the pedal took a bit of doing).
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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
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#2883355 - 10/04/17 05:08 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
burningbusch Online   content
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Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.

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#2883359 - 10/04/17 05:38 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: burningbusch]
Delaware Dave Online   content
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Loc: Take a guess ....
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.
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#2883361 - 10/04/17 05:56 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: burningbusch]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.


Thanks - got it captured.

Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.


Thanks Dave - I saw the schematic and the 10K pot value came from this:
Fatar FP50

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#2883362 - 10/04/17 05:59 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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I wonder if DB or Joe could let me edit the first post of this thread in order to put the current link to the Google spreadsheet right up front. I sure do like that shared Google docs; almost better than my hi-tech camera approach laugh

BTW you guys are seeing my updates? idk


Edited by DarkyLord (10/04/17 06:01 PM)

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#2883382 - 10/04/17 08:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
davedoerfler Offline
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PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.
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#2883413 - 10/05/17 05:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: davedoerfler]
hardware Offline
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No mention of the FC7X-II.
If you really like the Anaconda mouth FC-7 but it has dead spots the Ashby adapter is a great accessory.
My Source Audio pedals just need TS and some dip switch setting for CV or exp.
EV5 works as us, FC7 turns into damn near CV quality when the FC7X-II is used.

I'd die for an FC-7 with the guts of a Reflex Pedal.
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#2883422 - 10/05/17 06:31 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: davedoerfler]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: count doerflera
PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.


Thanks - PM sent.

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#2883424 - 10/05/17 06:38 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: hardware
No mention of the FC7X-II.


It's not a pedal so I don't believe it belongs in the chart. Also these are discontinued by Ashby but a near identical product is available from me.

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#2883428 - 10/05/17 07:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Delaware Dave Online   content
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Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.


Thanks - got it captured.

Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.


Thanks Dave - I saw the schematic and the 10K pot value came from this:
Fatar FP50
That would be perfect, an FC7 type pedal with a 10K pot will work perfectly on my Kurzweil, although the polarity is backward. I have the Ashby adapter so this pedal probably has a better sweep than my EV-7 who polarity matches my Kurzweil and polarity also matches. The EV-7 is NLA, and used (if you can find one) is over $100. Crumar makes one for the Mojo and it is also a 10K pot but is also over $100. I think I am going to pickup one of these pedals, I think I saw it was only $40.
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#2883501 - 10/05/17 01:24 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: davedoerfler]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: count doerflera
PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.

Thanks - PM sent.

Done!

dB
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#2883504 - 10/05/17 01:43 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Dave Bryce]
Markyboard Offline
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Perfect - thanks! twothumbs

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#2883520 - 10/05/17 03:44 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Markay Offline
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Looks good Mark, would it useful to add Keyboard compatabilty? For example Nord is compatible with Type I and Type II from about the Electro 3 era on, as are Hammond XK3, SK and XK, Roland is Type I etc.
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#2883531 - 10/05/17 06:00 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markay]
hardware Offline
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FCX7-II could be an accessory is a sub category if that would ever be added.
Ashby out of business?
Glad I bought another half dozen a few months back.
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#2883533 - 10/05/17 06:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markay]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay
Looks good Mark, would it be useful to add Keyboard compatibility?


Definitely - that's been on my mind from the start inspired by the often repeated question "which expression pedal should I use for keyboard xxx?"

I have some other things in work but will return to this shortly. Thanks everyone-this is a really cool team effort that I think/hope benefits most everyone here.

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#2883536 - 10/05/17 06:18 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: hardware
FCX7-II could be an accessory is a sub category if that would ever be added.
Ashby out of business?
Glad I bought another half dozen a few months back.


Will keep that sub-category in mind. AFAIK Ashby's still in business. IIRC Bruce just found the small market for these not viable. On the other hand I'm doing a limited edition followed by a signature edition and maybe even a Valentines Day edition.

Every kiss begins with Little Gray Electronics Polarity Inverting Adapter. PianoBanana

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#2883562 - 10/06/17 02:24 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Markay Offline
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Wot no road worn edition, rumbled, dipped in acid to promote that rusted look with one loose connection.
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#2884526 - 10/11/17 07:53 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markay]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Loc: Northern California
OK, guys- here's the HOLY GRAIL of expression pedals. Just received mine today and it's so far above anything else I've used. I'll reluctantly share.


http://dbinstrumentamp.com

This DUAL AXIS pedal features 2 SETS (4 total) 25k pots. Each axis (Up/Down, Left/Right) can control 2 separate pedal inputs. For years, I've used modified Fender Tone/Volume pedals to get dual axis control for each keyboard (decades, actually, built my first ones in the late 70s, with 9v batteries to control my Prophet and Minimoog!). Up/Down is always Expression, L/R goes to the second pedal jack and is Leslie speed, crossfades, second layer volume, wah, filter cutoff, attack speed, whatever you can program your 'board to respond to. It's truly awesome. With this pedal, you can connect two 'boards in this way simultaneously to a single pedal.

This is a really well designed, engineered, and built pedal. Very solid and smooth with great throw length and controllability. There are switches to flip polarity, convert to a "TS" type pedal, even switch two of the pots to 10K. Not cheap, at $269, but wow, just wow.


Edited by Bill Spencer (10/11/17 08:16 PM)

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#2884531 - 10/11/17 08:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
mate stubb Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer
OK, guys- here's the HOLY GRAIL of expression pedals. Just received mine today and it's so far above anything else I've used. I'll reluctantly share.


http://dbinstrumentamp.com


Oooh. I need to cram a 2nd expression pedal on my already too crowded pedal board - I could control expression for 2 different keyboards from this?

How is the throw for organ? Long as FC-7?
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#2884535 - 10/11/17 08:41 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: mate stubb]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Loc: Northern California
Yes, you could use U/D for one 'board and L/R for the other, or if you don't need independent control, connect both 'boards to the U/D jacks and control them both with one axis.

I'm not sure about the FC-7 but the specs for the 4E say 20° of travel for each axis.


Edited by Bill Spencer (10/11/17 09:09 PM)

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#2884549 - 10/11/17 09:47 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
OB Dave Offline
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Wow, that sounds pretty impressive except for the throw. The FC7 has 30 degrees of throw. I've never used a pedal with a side-to-side axis, but the FC7 at 30 degrees is about the minimum I'd want to use for expression. I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.

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#2884562 - 10/12/17 03:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer


This is a really well designed, engineered, and built pedal. Very solid and smooth with great throw length and controllability. There are switches to flip polarity, convert to a "TS" type pedal, even switch two of the pots to 10K. Not cheap, at $269, but wow, just wow.


Hey cool - thanks Bill. Captured in spreadsheet based on your info. I don't have FB so let me know if corrections are needed.

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#2884563 - 10/12/17 03:58 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Dave]
Markyboard Offline
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Originally Posted By: OB Grave
I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.


Pretty tight but maybe? Finding the right pot is the tricky part.


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#2884599 - 10/12/17 07:45 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer


This DUAL AXIS pedal features 2 SETS (4 total) 25k pots.
...
There are switches ..., even switch two of the pots to 10K.


I wonder why not possible for all FOUR pots,- and are the pots linear or logarithmic/ audio taper ?

For most keyboards, except those using Yamaha FC-7 (50K), we need 10K linear !

A.C.

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#2884618 - 10/12/17 08:58 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
Markyboard Offline
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Ah, just noticed the links to the specs. And they have another variation of this pedal that also has a dual I/O volume function
in the M440 model:





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#2884632 - 10/12/17 10:02 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Ah, just noticed the links to the specs. And they have another variation of this pedal that also has a dual I/O volume function
in the M440 model:


Up Down volume only potentiometer resistance 500k.

Panning potentiometer resistance 500k.

Up Down expression resistance is 50k linear
.

For sure the "PAN"-pot is for placement into the audio path of a given rig,- the 50K pot might be usable for expression or any MIDI CC like a Yammi FC7 pedal, but w/ limited throw (20°).

The other pedal mentioned above at least offers 1 pot for 10K expression when being switched to that value,- but IMO and for the price, it´s not very satisfying for a keyboardplayer when the demand is replacing 2 10K lin expression pedals by only ONE multi-functional pedal unit.

A.C.

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#2884636 - 10/12/17 10:27 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
mate stubb Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda

The other pedal mentioned above at least offers 1 pot for 10K expression when being switched to that value,- but IMO and for the price, it´s not very satisfying for a keyboardplayer when the demand is replacing 2 10K lin expression pedals by only ONE multi-functional pedal unit.

A.C.


I read that differently - "Potentiometers resistance 25k Linear. Switchable to 10k on U/D1 and L/R1." Seems you can get 10K on both axes.
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#2884667 - 10/12/17 03:01 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Registered: 05/15/11
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Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Al Coda


I wonder why not possible for all FOUR pots,- and are the pots linear or logarithmic/ audio taper ?

For most keyboards, except those using Yamaha FC-7 (50K), we need 10K linear !

A.C.


Pots are all linear, for use with pedal inputs. The other pedal they offer has Log taper pots for use with audio signals.

I tried it with my Kurx PC3K and, although the specs say it wants to see 10k, it works great on the 25k setting, too.

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#2884668 - 10/12/17 03:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
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Loc: Northern California
Today I added USB MIDI to one of my new 4E pedals. Amazing.

Installed LIVID's "Brain Jr." board. $50, fits like it was made for it. For use with MainStage, and still leaves one set of jacks to use. WHEEE!!




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#2884669 - 10/12/17 03:11 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: mate stubb]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 333
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: matted stump


I read that differently - "Potentiometers resistance 25k Linear. Switchable to 10k on U/D1 and L/R1." Seems you can get 10K on both axes.


Yep- one SET of pots can be switched to 10k.


Edited by Bill Spencer (10/12/17 03:11 PM)

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#2884727 - 10/12/17 09:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
OB Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: OB Grave
I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.


Pretty tight but maybe? Finding the right pot is the tricky part.



Aw man, that cavity was made for a dual-gang pot. I think it'll just fit. Ok, ima have to dissect one of mine and go pot shopping. Stay tuned...

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#2884734 - 10/12/17 11:57 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Dave]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 333
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: OB Grave
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: OB Grave
I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.


Pretty tight but maybe? Finding the right pot is the tricky part.






Aw man, that cavity was made for a dual-gang pot. I think it'll just fit. Ok, ima have to dissect one of mine and go pot shopping. Stay tuned...


It will fit. GO FOR IT!

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#2884745 - 10/13/17 04:18 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
Markyboard Offline
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OK - my bad! But shame on you guys for trusting my ability to use Google facepalm . Here's another pic of the same pedal:



Not sure which pedal this is - but it's not an FC-7. I've reversed polarity on several of my FC-7s and my recollection is that it would be difficult to change out the pot, but I could be wrong. Thought I had pics of my rework but I guess not - my apologies.

Btw Bill that little midi usb board you added is really cool - nice job twothumbs . I may just find a use for one of those in the future.


Edited by DarkyLord (10/13/17 04:25 AM)

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#2884763 - 10/13/17 06:45 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Registered: 05/15/11
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Loc: Northern California

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#2885073 - 10/14/17 07:02 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
OB Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/25/09
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Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Not sure which pedal this is - but it's not an FC-7.

Hahahah, you're right. It's not an FC-7. I discovered this when I opened my my FC-7. It looks completely different inside.



It's actually kind of a beautifully designed pedal. The FC-7 doesn't use a gear, instead there's a spring-loaded cam, and there's this whole other crazy thing in there to give the pedal some friction. The pot is an Alps but 116G doesn't appear to be a standard Alps part number, and going through the catalog I don't see anything exactly like it. Alps appears to only be distributed by Mouser in the US and I didn't find it there either. I am guessing this is a special pot made for Yamaha.

However, I took some measurements with a caliper and found an Alps mechanical drawing for a very similar pot - I am guessing the mechanical components are used for the special Yamaha pot - and using that drawing I did find three potential candidates that all have the same approximate shaft length and type. All 10k linear dual-gang pots, one Alps, one Bourns, and one Taiwan Alpha. I need to order up some other stuff anyway so I'll throw these on the order and see what I can make any of 'em work when they arrive.

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#2887099 - 10/25/17 05:26 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Dave]
mate stubb Online   content
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I've added my name to the list for the 4E pedal. Hoping to get in on the current run.
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#2887136 - 10/25/17 10:20 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: mate stubb]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 1220
Loc: Southern Calif.
Moe, I'd love to hear your review if you get one soon, my needs also being for a single expression pedal for 2 boards. I've got a Nord and Kurz, and would love to save the room underneath with a single pedal.....


Edited by zxcvbnm098 (10/25/17 10:20 PM)

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#2887146 - 10/25/17 11:28 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: zxcvbnm098]
mate stubb Online   content
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Will do.
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#2887154 - 10/26/17 01:41 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
Spider76 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 08/01/13
Posts: 370
Originally Posted By: Bone Muskeleton

Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
I just got a Quik Lok pedal with a switchable polarity:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0049B3GFC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Does it feel like a long throw? If you want to try it with a Mojo 61, you know what to do. wink I'd like to try it myself.


I also have the QuikLok VP26U. It's pretty good for what it is: a cheap, plastic pedal. It's in the same category as the M-Audio one.
Interesting that it's marketed as a "volume" pedal, but having a TRS jack and switchable polarity, can work equally well for expression.

It's not long throw, the range is not even comparable to the FC7 or FV-500L.
It will not be great for organ, but it's OK to use with synths, so I use it in two-keyboards-two-expr-pedals rigs where one keyboard doesn't need extremely precise control.
Also, it works with any keyboard, it's cheap and lightweight. For me, that makes it the perfect backup pedal, to have in the bag "just in case".

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#2887176 - 10/26/17 04:14 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Spider76]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 333
Loc: Northern California
I hope you guys aren't missing the point of how cool having the dual axes is. On a synth patch, for instance, if you have the L/R assigned to filter cutoff freq, you then have essentially another envelope generator- you can do filter envelopes with your foot, totally controllable. One of my favorite applications: on strings patches, I have the L/R set to modify the amp envelope attack and decay rates, so hard left becomes a slow string pad, and hard right speeds up the envelope rates to allow the playing of quick runs. I have a choir pad where the L/R crossfades from "oohs" to "ahhs". On Rhodes patches, L/R controls stereo tremelo speed, similar on Wurlis and Vibes. Clavs, it's a wah. You can actually think of the pedal as a foot operated joystick due to the two axes.


Edited by Bill Spencer (10/26/17 04:17 AM)

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#2887286 - 10/26/17 02:51 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 1220
Loc: Southern Calif.
Yeah, it's not the main thing I'm interested in, but I get that it's pretty cool. What a (seemingly) great piece of kit!

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#2887327 - 10/26/17 08:30 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: zxcvbnm098]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
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Loc: DE
How about durability? My Hammond EXP50, over $200, has crapped out on me. Granted it's used extensively- every gig, rehearsal, etc, it's my go to expression pedal. I took it apart and my guess is it's the potentiometer as all the wiring is intact. I've gone back to my nearly 30 year old Boss pedal, the ancestor of the FV500.

I suppose I can replace the pot in the Hammond pedal without too much difficulty, but what's everyone's experience with some of the other long throw pedals regarding durability? The Boss pedal is a good backup but it's not a long enough throw.
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#2887478 - 10/27/17 09:12 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DanL]
Delaware Dave Online   content
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Dan, I'd try an FC7. It's 50K ohms but wired backwards for your Roland. You can make an Ashby adapter in about 10 minutes for about $7 and give it a try. Guitar Center has them in stock at the Wilmington store w/ a 30 day return policy. If it doesn't work out return it. The sweep is long.
_________________________
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#2887481 - 10/27/17 09:48 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Delaware Dave]
davedoerfler Offline
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DD speaks the truth. thu
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#2887490 - 10/27/17 10:44 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Delaware Dave]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
Dan, I'd try an FC7. It's 50K ohms but wired backwards for your Roland. You can make an Ashby adapter in about 10 minutes for about $7 and give it a try. Guitar Center has them in stock at the Wilmington store w/ a 30 day return policy. If it doesn't work out return it. The sweep is long.


I'd be using it on the Electro. Both the Roland and Electro are supposed to auto sense the polarity. I have a dual Kurz sustain pedal that is backwards and they both sense it when you power up.

I was thinking about the FC7. It's not that expensive and would be a good option.
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#2887492 - 10/27/17 10:52 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DanL]
Karl Schmeer Offline
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Registered: 11/09/08
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I second the FC7. I have two. One I opened up and flipped the polarity, to use with my Nord NE2. It's also sealed up very well to keep dust and stuff out of the potentiometer.
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#2887507 - 10/28/17 03:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DanL]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5284
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: DanL

I'd be using it on the Electro. Both the Roland and Electro are supposed to auto sense the polarity. I have a dual Kurz sustain pedal that is backwards and they both sense it when you power up.


For an expression pedal? Not sure how it would know. I'm only aware of auto sense for sustain pedal inputs. But I could be wrong...again mad

(Edit) Now there may be a reverse function setting.


Edited by DarkyLord (10/28/17 04:31 AM)

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#2887516 - 10/28/17 05:10 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2783
Loc: Australia
From NE3 on there is the option switch from Type 1 to Type 2 in the expression pedal settings.
_________________________
MainStage | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P
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#2887529 - 10/28/17 06:35 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4042
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Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: DanL

I'd be using it on the Electro. Both the Roland and Electro are supposed to auto sense the polarity. I have a dual Kurz sustain pedal that is backwards and they both sense it when you power up.


For an expression pedal? Not sure how it would know. I'm only aware of auto sense for sustain pedal inputs. But I could be wrong...again mad

(Edit) Now there may be a reverse function setting.


The E5 has a setting for the FC7.

I got one off of Amazon last night for $38. Should be here by mid week.
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#2887601 - 10/28/17 10:29 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Dave]
OB Dave Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 1000
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: OB Grave
I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.

Ok, so the parts came in and I finally got some time to sit down and see if I can hack the Yamaha FC7 expression pedal to make it a dual expression pedal. Short answer is: I was unsuccessful and I suspect it’s just not possible with this pedal. You can skip the rest if you’re not interested.

At first glance it shouldn’t be too difficult a problem to solve. The Yamaha FC7 uses what appears to be an unremarkable 50k rotary pot with a linear curve. Just need to find a dual gang rotary pot with similar dimensions. How hard can it be? So I found three pots that looked similar - same shaft length with a D-key, etc. They were all 10k, but that’s fine, perhaps even better. Bought one of each. The Alps and Bourns devices I bought were higher quality sealed pots, but the Taiwan Alpha part was most similar physically to the Alps pot that Yamaha uses. None of the three pots I found had lug terminals, but the Alpha part was the largest and I figured the easiest to solder, so that’s what I went with.

I should also point out that after having disassembled and reassembled the FC7 several times now, I’m gaining an even deeper appreciation for how well-engineered this pedal is. A lot of volume pedals use a gear and toothed bar mechanism to translate the pedal motion to a rotational motion to turn a rotary pot. Ernie Ball pedals use a string and spindle thing that’s an enormous pain to restring if you ever have to service the pedal, and both designs put tremendous strain on the pot if they become mis-adjusted. The Yamaha design is quite elegant. The pot is turned by a spring-loaded cam, and pushing down on the pedal turns the cam. There’s no way for the pot to get rotated beyond its physical limits, and there’s no way it can become misadjusted. You could drive over the thing and you’ll break the housing before you’ll break the pot. It’s a really good design. No wonder I’ve never had one fail on me.

Anyway, here’s the issue: Yamaha’s cam mechanism does not turn the pot through its full rotation, and Yamaha had Alps build them a pot with a special curve to accommodate this. If you connect the pot to an ohmmeter, remove the cam, and turn it through its full rotation, you’ll see 50k 50k 50k 50k 50k and once you’ve turned it about half of its range, then you’ll see it ramp down to 0 ohms. It is a linear taper pot, but the range of the taper has been restricted to only a subset of its full rotation, and they’ve engineered this subset to correspond to the motion of the cam.

At this point I was far enough into it I decided to go ahead and install the dual gang Alpha pot and see if it was gonna be close enough. Aligned the pot so that toe-down got all the way down to 0 ohms resistance like the original Yamaha pot. But in the toe up position, you only get to 5k or 6k. (Remember, this is a 10k pot, so about half its range is inaccessible.) Connected to the Nord, I could see the clav rotary encoder range was reduced to maybe 40-50% of full range, and when used on expression pedal on the Mojo, also only gave you the last portion of the expression pedal range.

So I’m throwing in the towel on this one. The only way to make this work would be to find a dual-gang rotary pot with a linear taper whose range matches that of the original pot. This is clearly a custom part so the odds of that are approximately zero.

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#2887602 - 10/28/17 11:04 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Dave]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Very interesting Dave. However I wonder how "custom" this pot really is. We've been talking about physical "dead" range with several pedals and it seems this "feature" is built into the pot itself. I'm not sure how these pots are built but I can envision no internal wiper movement until the shaft s turned a certain amount from it physical stops. I wonder if it's a speced parameter? idk I believe this is true for mod wheel and pitch wheel pots as well. Opened my m-audio controller while investigating the center point dead space a while back and came to this conclusion.

Anyway thanks for sharing your insight. How was removal of the old pot? Did you end up irreparably tearing through some of the pedal infrastructure?

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#2887604 - 10/28/17 11:24 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
mate stubb Online   content
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This doesn't surprise me. I remember pots in old wah wah pedals and other gear driven devices that were what we called short throw - they had less mechanical rotation than a standard pot.

I haven't looked closely at one of my FC7s, but is there a point where the cam stops turning the shaft before the physical limit of rotation?

If so, Yamaha probably found that it was cheaper to source a pot with standard rotation params but with a custom resistance track, rather than custom short physical throw. But I'm speculating.
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---
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#2887605 - 10/29/17 12:03 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
OB Dave Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 1000
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
However I wonder how "custom" this pot really is.

I would say the answer is "very." I can't think of many applications for a pot that behaves this way.

Originally Posted By: matted stump
I remember pots in old wah wah pedals and other gear driven devices that were what we called short throw - they had less mechanical rotation than a standard pot.

I haven't looked closely at one of my FC7s, but is there a point where the cam stops turning the shaft before the physical limit of rotation?

Yes, exactly. The geometry of the cam mechanism is such that the pot's rotation is limited by the cam, not the pot, so it's impossible to rotate the pot beyond its mechanical limits. If you pop the cam off, you can rotate the pot a full 270 or 300 degrees. Its travel seems like that of a regular pot.

The way these pots are typically made: the phenolic material is impregnated with a carbon stripe whose total resistance is 10k or 50k or whatever the pot resistance is, and the wiper travels the length of the carbon stripe. I am guessing that if you busted this pot open, about half of that stripe is copper, so there's no resistance change for that part of the pot's travel, and then it transitions to carbon for the usable travel of the pot. It was probably cheaper to make a custom pot this way because the one phenolic board is custom and the rest of the pot could be built using standard components.

That said, the alignment pin on this pot was in an odd location rotationally. In order to mount the Alpha pot, i needed to drill a new hole in the plate, oh I dunno, maybe 165 degrees off from where the original hole was.

Opening up the pedal was pretty easy. The one screw sorta in the center of the bottom holds a plate that holds the guts of the thing against the bottom of the part you put your foot on. Loosen that once screw and you can get the guts out. Remove the bolt that serves as the fulcrum, and lift the plastic housing out. It will split into two halves. All the interesting stuff happens in the half where the wire goes. One screw and one bolt pretty much holds the whole thing together.

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#2888776 - 11/06/17 07:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
DanL Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4042
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: DanL

I'd be using it on the Electro. Both the Roland and Electro are supposed to auto sense the polarity. I have a dual Kurz sustain pedal that is backwards and they both sense it when you power up.


For an expression pedal? Not sure how it would know. I'm only aware of auto sense for sustain pedal inputs. But I could be wrong...again mad

(Edit) Now there may be a reverse function setting.


Just to clarify- my Electro did sense the FC7 properly and it worked right out of the box. The pedal response wasn't quite right though, it had a narrow band, but when I changed the setting in the Electro to use the FC7, it responded perfectly over the full sweep of the pedal.
_________________________
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#2888779 - 11/06/17 07:24 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DanL]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5284
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: DanL


Just to clarify- my Electro did sense the FC7 properly and it worked right out of the box. The pedal response wasn't quite right though, it had a narrow band, but when I changed the setting in the Electro to use the FC7, it responded perfectly over the full sweep of the pedal.


What is it "sensing" - that a pedal is present? Since it's just a resistance between 0 and 50k Ohms I'm not sure how it could do anything more then that. idk

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#2888789 - 11/06/17 08:32 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
The Real MC Offline
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Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 4773
Loc: Secluded Tranquil NY Wine Coun...
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Here's my first second attempt at an Expression Pedal Summary. I think it covers most Expression and active CV pedals we've talked about, and then some. It may be somewhat cryptic but hopefully useful in steering folks to pedals compatible with their keyboard of choice. I didn't include price as that info varies and can easily be obtained. I welcome inputs, corrections etc. Also if someone would like to host the next version Excel spreadsheet for me that would be great.

Shared Pedal Summary Ver3


I've been using the Ernie Ball 25K stereo volume pedals. I'm now up to four of them. Smooth action, doesn't tilt over or ride the floor, medium damped travel, accepts TRS stereo I/O which I have adopted as standard in my system.

I could put the summary on my website. I would convert the Excel file to an html table and add your credit.

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#2888822 - 11/06/17 12:34 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 4042
Loc: DE
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: DanL


Just to clarify- my Electro did sense the FC7 properly and it worked right out of the box. The pedal response wasn't quite right though, it had a narrow band, but when I changed the setting in the Electro to use the FC7, it responded perfectly over the full sweep of the pedal.


What is it "sensing" - that a pedal is present? Since it's just a resistance between 0 and 50k Ohms I'm not sure how it could do anything more then that. idk


Sensing the polarity- you had mentioned in another comment that you thought the sustain pedals did that but were not sure about expression. Since the Yamaha is wired backwards from other models I wanted to clarify that the Nord did sense it and configure it to work properly.
_________________________
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#2888923 - 11/07/17 04:25 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: The Real MC]
Markyboard Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5284
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: The Real MC


I've been using the Ernie Ball 25K stereo volume pedals. I'm now up to four of them. Smooth action, doesn't tilt over or ride the floor, medium damped travel, accepts TRS stereo I/O which I have adopted as standard in my system.

I could put the summary on my website. I would convert the Excel file to an html table and add your credit.


I believe the Ernie Ball 25K is strictly a volume pedal and this summary is for expression pedals. It does include pedals that do both so if I got that wrong let me know.

Also thanks very much for the offer to post but this Google Share seems to work really well.

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#2889673 - 11/10/17 08:24 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
paulnajar Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/24/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Sydney Australia
I wanted to weight in on this thread for a couple of reasons. First is to say a sincere thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread making it the valuable resource that it is. For me it’s also been very timely having recently busted 2 different old pedals and so I wanted to share my experiences on 2 different new pedals I’ve recently purchased.

The first broken pedal was an old Alesis F2. Very robust but downside is it did have a fair bit of dead travel at the top and bottom of it’s physical range. I was using this on my bottom KB which is a Roland RD64.

I had an old Fatar pedal from the 1990’s that I was using on my top KB - a Novation SL MK2 61 that I moved to the Roland and this worked much better than the old Alesis F2 pedal did on the Roland with almost no dead travel.

For the Novation after looking around I purchased a Boss EV-30. It works OK but there is a tiny bit of dead travel. Not a deal breaker.

So that all happened about 6 weeks ago. Last weekend I broke the old Fatar pedal at a gig. Simply the plastic pedal upper just snapped. After reading through this thread and looking around again I purchased a Moog EP-3. This pedal works brilliantly on the Roland with absolutely no dead travel and a very smooth response.

What’s interesting is if I swap the two pedals and plug the Moog in the Novation and the Boss into the Roland - neither pedal performs as well and both end up having increased dead travel. I see that as strange particularly for the Boss plugged into the Roland given they’re the same company. Also both keyboards expect a 10K pedal.

So the Moog EP-3 was about 30% cheaper than the Boss EV-30 and is a far superior performing pedal and I wish I had 2 of them.

Kind regards
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Jaminajar music production
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#2889675 - 11/10/17 08:46 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: paulnajar]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2783
Loc: Australia
Paul, glad someone else has noticed the dead travel issue and the difference in observed response that the same pedal has plugged into different, but technically identical, boards.

I had formed the opinion that most considered an expression pedal to "work" if it went from soft to loud during its travel without regard to what happened over the full arc of travel.
_________________________
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#2889678 - 11/10/17 09:20 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markay]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 333
Loc: Northern California
What strikes me about this whole thread is how ridiculous it is that it’s this hard to find a pedsl to work with a given keyboard. It would be very nice if manufacturers could agree on some sort of standard, much like they did with MIDI, to alleviate this unnecessary complication.

Yamaha’s implementation of a ‘second’ pedal is particularly annoying because if you program a patch to work with the pedal and then don’t use the pedal, It acts as if the pedal is all the way on. That’s the way you want an expression or volume pedal to work, but completely opposite the way a ‘pedal controller’ should work. I just don’t get the logic.

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#2894784 - 12/08/17 11:14 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: mate stubb]
zxcvbnm098 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 1220
Loc: Southern Calif.
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Will do.


Moe, did you ever get this? I've been thinking about these lately...

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#2894787 - 12/09/17 12:29 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: zxcvbnm098]
mate stubb Online   content
Grand Poobah of the Trebuchet
10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15688
Originally Posted By: zxcvbnm098
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Will do.


Moe, did you ever get this? I've been thinking about these lately...


No. Been on his list for awhile, haven't heard anything.
_________________________
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---
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#2898328 - 12/28/17 11:04 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
Spider76 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 08/01/13
Posts: 370
Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer
What strikes me about this whole thread is how ridiculous it is that it’s this hard to find a pedsl to work with a given keyboard.


This. I've been trying to get any pedal to work with my KARP Odyssey, but no way. The website says the Korg XVP-20 will work, but it's really expensive and I dont own other Korg synths, so I'm afraid it could be a one-trick pony I will use only with the Oddy.
Any hints?

Apart from this, a few considerations:

1- THANKS for the topic!

2- can we make this and the "keyboard action list" topics stickies? I think they're very useful general reference topics.

3- we could add to the pedal description size, weight and travel. All are quite useful practical info. I'll start with what I found (or measured):

BRAND /MODEL /Size mm (LxWxH) /Weigth(g) /Throw(°)

BOSS
/FV-500L /289x110x72 /1600
/EV-30 /192x80x58 /780 /Short(17°)

EHX
/Exp Pedal /252x87x76
/Dual Exp Pedal /252x87x76
/Next Step Expression

Korg
/EXP-2 /200x87x91 /460
/XVP-10 /300x114x69 /1450
/XVP-20 /268x90x62 /1300
/DS-1H

Mission Eng
/EP-1 /251x99x76 /1430
/EP-25K /251x99x76 /1430
/EP-25- Pro Aero /279x101x76 /770

Moog
/EP-3 /1180

Pigtronix
/Dual Expression Pedal /254x102x64 /1600

Quiklok
VP-26U /200x84x58 /630 /Short(15°)

Roland
/EV-5 /200x86x54 /400

Source Audio
/Dual Expression Pedal /254x102x76
/Reflex Universal Controller /267x95x70 /1000

Yamaha
/FC7 /250x116x58 /1300 /Long(30°)



I would also add to the list the EHX Next Gen Expression Pedal, which is weird because it has no mechanical moving parts (no pots!) and also doubles as an active CV pedal.

(sorry for the messy list, can't find a way to make tabs work!)

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#2898479 - 12/29/17 07:32 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Spider76]
Markyboard Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5284
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Spider76
Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer
What strikes me about this whole thread is how ridiculous it is that it’s this hard to find a pedsl to work with a given keyboard.


This. I've been trying to get any pedal to work with my KARP Odyssey, but no way. The website says the Korg XVP-20 will work, but it's really expensive and I dont own other Korg synths, so I'm afraid it could be a one-trick pony I will use only with the Oddy.
Any hints?



Hi- Per the manual

PEDAL jack
Connect an optional (separately sold) volume pedal here. You’ll also use this jack when connecting the SQ-1 (sequencer) to control the ARP ODYSSEY.



Under the specs at the bottom the options show VP-10, although I'm sure many volume type pedals will work. Note that this is not an Expression pedal input found on most modern synths/keyboards.



Originally Posted By: Spider76

Apart from this, a few considerations:


2- can we make this and the "keyboard action list" topics stickies? I think they're very useful general reference topics.



Several have requested this and other threads be made stickies. I believe the intent of stickies is for forum guidance, not specific subjects.

Originally Posted By: Spider76

3- we could add to the pedal description size, weight and travel. All are quite useful practical info.

I'll give it a shot but it may be a while. Imo most people aren't looking to compare size and weight, but what do I know? The throw angle has been suggested but I think the specific data is limited. Still good idea though - thanks!


I think a higher priority is to include keyboard/compatibility with each pedal which is also a lot of work, but i plan to attempt to tackle this soon.




Originally Posted By: Spider76

I would also add to the list the EHX Next Gen Expression Pedal, which is weird because it has no mechanical moving parts (no pots!) and also doubles as an active CV pedal.


Will do.

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#2898883 - 01/01/18 04:42 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Spider76 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 08/01/13
Posts: 370
Originally Posted By: Markyboard

I'll give it a shot but it may be a while. Imo most people aren't looking to compare size and weight, but what do I know? The throw angle has been suggested but I think the specific data is limited. Still good idea though - thanks!


I think a higher priority is to include keyboard/compatibility with each pedal which is also a lot of work, but i plan to attempt to tackle this soon.


I think size and weight are useful because these are practical features that can make a difference for the gigging musician (space taken up on a pedalboard, weight to carry around). Also, usually (not always) bigger and heavier pedals have a longer throw and better build quality.

As to size, weight and throw angle, I measured the ones I own (Yamaha FC7, Boss EV30 and QuikLok VP26U) so I can confirm these data are precise.
Hopefully somebody else can chime in on other models.

As to compatibility, it's absolutely a need given how much variability there is, and how difficult it is to find a pedal that properly works with different brands and models.

I think the best thing would be if members reported their own experiences, and we collected them all on this topic.


Side question: does the Moog EP-3 have a cam or a string? I plan on getting one but I HATE strings, they look so cheap and fragile to me. I found pics online of Moog pedals both with strings or cams, both advertized as the EP-3...can anybody clarify? Thanks!

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#2898893 - 01/01/18 07:01 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Spider76]
Markyboard Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5284
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Spider76

Hopefully somebody else can chime in on other models,
I think the best thing would be if members reported their own experiences, and we collected them all on this topic.


Yup - exactly what we've been doing thus far. Personally I just need a bit more time before I focus on this again.

Originally Posted By: Spider76

Side question: does the Moog EP-3 have a cam or a string? I plan on getting one but I HATE strings, they look so cheap and fragile to me. I found pics online of Moog pedals both with strings or cams, both advertized as the EP-3...can anybody clarify? Thanks!


No string per these EP-3 Comments on Moog Forum

Btw I did add the EHX pedals.


Edited by Markyboard (01/01/18 07:02 AM)

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#2898910 - 01/01/18 08:23 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Markyboard]
Marzzz Offline
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Registered: 11/24/00
Posts: 2376
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
I believe the Ernie Ball 25K is strictly a volume pedal and this summary is for expression pedals. It does include pedals that do both so if I got that wrong let me know.

Hans Tobeason (Eddie Jobson's keyboard tech) converted Ernie Ball Volume pedals into continuous MIDI controllers expression pedals.



He got back to me quickly on this:

I converted the Ernie Ball pedals by swapping out the logarithmic taper potentiometers for 25K linear taper, then rewiring one of the 1/4 TRS jacks on the back (I removed the extraneous jacks). It was a bit of a kludge, since the new pot shafts weren't metric size, so I had to ream out the pulleys. And the new pots weren't quite as good quality as the originals, since I couldn't source the same manufacturer (I used Honeywell 10% pots - Mouser part #785-380C125K). But they seem to be working!

That EB pedal has, I believe, logarithmic taper potentiometers - all volume pedals do - and that won't work as a expression pedal, which needs a linear taper pot. The trick with expression pedals is to get the circuit right - <http://www.strymon.net/2010/07/12/strymon-tech-corner-1-anatomy-of-an-expression-pedal/>. I just happened to use a 25K pot - it doesn't really matter. But it has to be linear - <http://www.strymon.net/tag/expression-pedal/> - read down a bit for the linear/log bit.


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