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#2881904 - 09/27/17 11:29 AM Expression Pedal Summary
DarkyLord Offline
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Here's my first second attempt at an Expression Pedal Summary. I think it covers most Expression and active CV pedals we've talked about, and then some. It may be somewhat cryptic but hopefully useful in steering folks to pedals compatible with their keyboard of choice. I didn't include price as that info varies and can easily be obtained. I welcome inputs, corrections etc. Also if someone would like to host the next version Excel spreadsheet for me that would be great.

Shared Pedal Summary Ver3

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#2881910 - 09/27/17 12:14 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
AnotherScott Offline
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Excellent work!

Other criteria that might matter to people (perhaps these additions could be crowd-sourced, assuming you don't have immediate access to all these pedals)... the angle of the pedal at full off and full on (which, between them, I think would also let you know the total travel, for those who prefer short travel or long travel pedals).
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#2881918 - 09/27/17 01:34 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H. From what I've been able to gather, the working resistance seems to be 0-20k, but that seems to be a relatively narrow (~30-45 degrees) portion of the total rotation of the pot (assumed to be 100k, but no guarantees). I have been unable to find any information regarding the connections.

One poster in my thread on the matter felt that the pedal had a relatively short travel, subjectively.

I remember beginning investigations into a pedal for my Yamaha--might have been the FC7 that you list above--but got distracted and never followed through. If I get back to that and if my Yamaha takes that particular pedal, then your notes will come in quite handy, so thanks.

Grey
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#2881923 - 09/27/17 02:04 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott


Other criteria that might matter to people (perhaps these additions could be crowd-sourced, assuming you don't have immediate access to all these pedals)... the angle of the pedal at full off and full on (which, between them, I think would also let you know the total travel, for those who prefer short travel or long travel pedals).


Thanks Scott. I definitely agree with the usefulness of listing the rotational angle range. Unfortunately this info is not readily available or easy to gather.

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#2881924 - 09/27/17 02:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H.

Grey


That looks to be a sustain pedal.

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#2881926 - 09/27/17 02:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
JerryA Online   content
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That chart is so helpful. cool


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#2881931 - 09/27/17 02:54 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: JerryA]
hardware Offline
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Think I owned all of them at one time or another.
Great info there for a sticky IMO.

Bravo
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#2881934 - 09/27/17 03:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
DarkyLord Offline
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Thanks guys!

Grey-
Just saw your DS-1H thread from a few days ago. Sorry I missed all the fun but looks like Scott dug up some some really good info.

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#2881939 - 09/27/17 03:27 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
marino Offline
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Very useful. Thanks!! like

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#2881941 - 09/27/17 03:34 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: GRollins
I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H.

Grey


That looks to be a sustain pedal.


Silly me...
(...you can't make it a general pedal chart?)

Grey
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#2881966 - 09/27/17 05:42 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
cphollis Offline
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#2881967 - 09/27/17 05:53 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Al Coda Offline
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twothumbs

coolness !

thx

A.C.

P.S.:
According to Markay´s POST the Hammnond EXP-50 is 10K (lin) if true.

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#2881971 - 09/27/17 06:17 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
Phreakay Offline
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The M-Audio wiper wiring is switchable. Maybe it would be easier to categorise the pedals as type 1 or type 2 or both (switchable).

Also regarding throw, there are two criteria, pedal range, possibly group into short (e.g M-Audio), medium or long (e.g. Hammond EXP-50) AND usable throw e.g Boss FV500L - 70%, M-Audio and Hammond - 100%.
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#2881984 - 09/27/17 08:30 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.
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#2881999 - 09/27/17 10:55 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
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Nice work Mark!
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#2882012 - 09/28/17 03:49 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda

According to Markay´s POST the Hammnond EXP-50 is 10K (lin) if true.


Got it - thanks!

Originally Posted By: Markay
The M-Audio wiper wiring is switchable. Maybe it would be easier to categorise the pedals as type 1 or type 2 or both (switchable).

Also regarding throw, there are two criteria, pedal range, possibly group into short (e.g M-Audio), medium or long (e.g. Hammond EXP-50) AND usable throw e.g Boss FV500L - 70%, M-Audio and Hammond - 100%.


I like the Type I/II suggestion - great idea. I'll define those up front (i.e I = wiper to tip, II = wiper to ring, I/II = reverse switch/jumper provided). Now I can eliminate the reverse column. Btw I obviously messed up the M-audio -good catch.

Regarding the throw I suggest we include the clear/obvious characteristics in the comments column (FC-7 long throw, EV5, short throw etc.) We might even include "noticeable physical dead region" for the FCV500-L and others without trying to get specific on amounts.


Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.


I'm not sure what this means other then maybe suggesting the Kurzweil (which one?) is expecting a pedal with a 10K pot? If the PC3 variety please see my cryptic note in the table. It appears (based on my testing this week) this will work well with any Type I Pedal independent of pot value.

Thanks all - great inputs!

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#2882022 - 09/28/17 04:34 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Great work! Regarding hosting of the spreadsheet, a publicly shared Google Docs spreadsheet might be an easy way to keep it online and always up to date.
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#2882035 - 09/28/17 05:44 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.


I'm not sure what this means other then maybe suggesting the Kurzweil (which one?) is expecting a pedal with a 10K pot?




All pots are not created equal. There are numerous types, but the two most common are log (short for logarithmic) and linear. If you take the resistance of the pot, say 10k, and start twisting the shaft, how much resistance goes by per degree of turn? A linear taper pot will do pretty much what you would expect--if you turn it half way, you'll get half the resistance. 3/4 will increase/decrease (depending on which way you're turning the shaft) the resistance by 3/4. A log taper pot will increase or decrease logarithmically, with most of the resistance occurring in the first or last portion of the turn. This is important for use in places like volume controls, because the human ear responds in a logarithmic fashion. If you use a linear pot for a volume control, you'd get all your volume in the first quarter-turn or so. Yes, people do this. Guitar and bass amps are notorious for using linear pots to control volume because the unwary user turns the knob to, say, 3, covers his ears, and says, "If it's this loud at 3, imagine how loud it will be when I turn it to 10!" not realizing that it's already pretty much maxed out. If you use a log pot, you'll get more-or-less equal numbers of decibels per degree of turn. Stereos generally use log pots in their volume controls--at least the decent ones.

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey
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#2882044 - 09/28/17 06:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey


Hi Grey-

Totally agree. The reason I didn't include this is that every expression pedal listed uses a linear pot- period. I haven't found one that didn't. Even the ones that include separate volume I/O use linear pots.

As you indicated volume pedals typically use logarithmic pots - but apparently not the ones that serves as combined expression/volume pedals. I believe this is due to cost and complexities of including 2 separate pots. I also don't believe there are a whole lot of dual- ganged pots where one side is linear and the other log.

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#2882045 - 09/28/17 06:20 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
DarkyLord Offline
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Btw - now that we're including some descriptive info on the throw I'm happy to include the DS-1H and the FC3A as these work exactly the same as an expression pedal, albeit with a really short throw. I'll include a comment that these are used for half damper control.

20K pot for the DS-1H?

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#2882052 - 09/28/17 06:39 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mighty Ferguson
Great work! Regarding hosting of the spreadsheet, a publicly shared Google Docs spreadsheet might be an easy way to keep it online and always up to date.


Thanks MF- will further investigate.

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#2882054 - 09/28/17 06:43 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Phreakay Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Regarding the throw I suggest we include the clear/obvious characteristics in the comments column (FC-7 long throw, EV5, short throw etc.) We might even include "noticeable physical dead region" for the FCV500-L and others without trying to get specific on amounts.


Agreed, I hate the thought of having to get a protractor out and accurately measuring throw. Having said that I recently saw a diagram for a pedal that did include a throw angle diagram measured from the 'up' position.

This table is great contribution to the body of knowledge Mark, thanks for taking the time to put it together.

Maybe on a forum the best way to update is to just republish the relevant section as there are updates, similar to the way Vin (Tafkat) over at GS does with the interface latency database.
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#2882055 - 09/28/17 06:44 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Totally agree. The reason I didn't include this is that every expression pedal listed uses a linear pot- period.
...
As you indicated volume pedals typically use logarithmic pots - but apparently not the ones that serves as combined expression/volume pedals.

Very interesting! And while Gray points out the limitations of linear pots, it seems to not really be an issue with expression pedals (at least people don't generally seem to complain about things like uneven response, except when they are using the "wrong" pedal), so I guess the "problem" of linear operation not matching what our ears expect is "solved" by proper interpretation/mapping of the pedal physical locations to the 128 MIDI values.


Originally Posted By: Markyboard
I'm happy to include the DS-1H and the FC3A as these work exactly the same as an expression pedal, albeit with a really short throw.

Yup, and that they spring back. Using a MIDI Solutions box, I once mapped a continuous sustain pedal to pitch bend for that reason. I couldn't spare the hand for pitch bend, and it was sloppy/unnatural to use a traditional expression pedal that had to manually be brought back to true pitch.
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#2882056 - 09/28/17 06:50 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
Skinny Offline
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This is very cool, Markyboard. cool like
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#2882059 - 09/28/17 06:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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I just added the 10 K value for completion of the table (since it doesn't show a value, like the ones in the upper part. This value has been verified by checking - I have four CC1 pedals.
Added only in the interest of helping complete the table.
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#2882060 - 09/28/17 06:57 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
GRollins Offline
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I cannot verify that 20k figure. I read it on the web and I tend to be leery of stuff I see on the web until I figure out how good the source is. There are butt-loads of people out there who think they're "experts," but don't know squat. The site someone linked to in my thread indicated that the pedal had 20k of swept resistance in actual use, but it's only a small amount of the total value of the pot.

The Korg Kronos is supposed to automatically sense when a DS-1H is hooked up, at which point you can undertake some sort of calibration procedure. My homebrew device has yet to trigger the Kronos's automatic recognition. I'm going to try something else as soon as I get time, but I'm tied up doing a bunch of other things. If I had an actual pedal on hand, I'd be happy to test it for you, but I'm trying to save that money for a (possible, maybe, cross fingers) Yamaha rack unit to beef up my MM8. I may not even need the pedal. I've got one place in one song that I want to try it on. If I don't like the result, then it's just going to gather dust, so I'm reluctant to put money into the pedal unless it's going to actually get used, hence my experimentation.

The only non-effects pedal I have on hand is an external switch that goes with the BOSS DD-7. I can't remember what it's called at the moment. If info on that will help, let me know and I'll see what makes it tick. They may be using an FET, rather than just a simple switch, but I don't know that, so don't print it without verification. As far as I know, it doesn't work with anything but BOSS pedals so it may not be of interest.

Grey
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#2882064 - 09/28/17 07:10 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
Phreakay Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins


All pots are not created equal. There are numerous types, but the two most common are log (short for logarithmic) and linear. If you take the resistance of the pot, say 10k, and start twisting the shaft, how much resistance goes by per degree of turn? A linear taper pot will do pretty much what you would expect--if you turn it half way, you'll get half the resistance. 3/4 will increase/decrease (depending on which way you're turning the shaft) the resistance by 3/4. A log taper pot will increase or decrease logarithmically, with most of the resistance occurring in the first or last portion of the turn. This is important for use in places like volume controls, because the human ear responds in a logarithmic fashion. If you use a linear pot for a volume control, you'd get all your volume in the first quarter-turn or so. Yes, people do this. Guitar and bass amps are notorious for using linear pots to control volume because the unwary user turns the knob to, say, 3, covers his ears, and says, "If it's this loud at 3, imagine how loud it will be when I turn it to 10!" not realizing that it's already pretty much maxed out. If you use a log pot, you'll get more-or-less equal numbers of decibels per degree of turn. Stereos generally use log pots in their volume controls--at least the decent ones.

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey


I think it is important to distinguish between the needs of a Guitarist and keyboard player. As Markyboard points out all the pedals that one might use with a keyboard have linear pots.

Few keyboard players are using these pedals to modulate volume into an amp.

More important is their use as a true expression pedal plugged into the expression input of a keyboard to provide swell control forva clonewheel, to fade between layers and splits, modulate other sounds including synths or to vary volume internally between different sounds, e.g. AP and EP.

Where volume modulation of a board's output is required some pedals, like the FV500L, can serve a dual function as an inline Volume pedal.

Hence they are all linear pots. For software users virtually all hosts, DAW's and some VI's provide the functionality to convert the linear input to logarithmic, exponential or to otherwise customise the response curve. VB3 for example provides all three options.

The only value in including pedals with expoential or logarithmic pots would be as a warning to steer clear unless you have a special need for either of these.
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#2882069 - 09/28/17 07:21 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
I just added the 10 K value for completion of the table (since it doesn't show a value, like the ones in the upper part. This value has been verified by checking - I have four CC1 pedals.
Added only in the interest of helping complete the table.


Doh! facepalm
Until now I was unaware of (or totally forgot) this pedal. Will definitely include in table.

Thanks!

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#2882072 - 09/28/17 07:43 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Delaware Dave Offline
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#2882079 - 09/28/17 07:59 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Doh! facepalm
Until now I was unaware of (or totally forgot) this pedal. Will definitely include in table.

Thanks!


Just a note ...
I tried downloading your pics of the table in 1st post and open in Windows which unfortunately doesn´t work.
I was about creating an editable document in Open Office to make a PDF later.
It would be great to have a Open Office-Calc (or Excel) chart to make PDF updates.

smile

A.C.

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#2882083 - 09/28/17 08:10 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Delaware Dave]
Phreakay Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave

Well like a few of these comparisons floating around it doesn't address wiring which is the first thing you need to know to match it to your keyboard.

The SOS thread is the most complete that I have found but Markyboard's comparison provides more detail and is up to date.
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#2882089 - 09/28/17 08:34 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Delaware Dave]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave


Thanks Dave - I've run across other lists but not this particular one. This did remind me that the FV500-L has dual pots - will update. Also the Pigtronix states 20K in the description, but 25K in the spec. Went with the 25K.

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#2882099 - 09/28/17 09:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Bone Muskeleton Offline
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Thanks, Mark! Though I do find it funny that you created this on a computer and then shared it via photos of the printout. wink

I do agree that putting the info somewhere like a Google Doc would be useful.

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#2882291 - 09/29/17 06:39 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bone Muskeleton]
wjones Offline
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Registered: 07/02/13
Posts: 40
This is great (and timely) information. Thanks, Markyboard!

I have a Roland EV-5 and a Yamaha FC7, but honestly I don't like either of them.

I've been looking around for something with some more heft and a better feel without a huge footprint, but haven't found any expression pedal products that interest me. I will now google all the products on your spreadsheet.

I like the look of the Ernie Ball volume pedals (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EB6181) and am considering wiring one to work as an expression pedal. Is anyone else on the forum doing that?
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#2882296 - 09/29/17 07:02 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
wjones Offline
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Hmmm... of your fine list, the Korg XVP20 seems like it might be what I'm looking for. Anyone using one of these with a Nord?
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Leslie 145
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#2882297 - 09/29/17 07:03 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
Phreakay Offline
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Originally Posted By: wjones

I have a Roland EV-5 and a Yamaha FC7, but honestly I don't like either of them.

What is it you don't like about them?

The EV-5 is wiper on tip, the FC7 is wiper on ring. Are you changing the 'polarity' expression pedal setting in the Electro to suit each pedal?
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#2882316 - 09/29/17 07:47 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave


Thanks Dave - I've run across other lists but not this particular one. This did remind me that the FV500-L has dual pots - will update. Also the Pigtronix states 20K in the description, but 25K in the spec. Went with the 25K.
Yeah, I found what appears to be some inaccuracies in some of their specs as well.....
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#2882322 - 09/29/17 08:09 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Delaware Dave]
GRollins Offline
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Posts: 203
Although you can always pad a pot out with a fixed resistor to any desired value, it's worth noting that pots trend heavily towards a 1, 2, 5 progression (yes, there are other values, but...), i.e.:

1k
2k
5k
10k
20k
50k
100k...etc.

With that in mind, I'd suggest that it's more likely that the pot in question is, perhaps, a 20k pot.

Unless...they're doing something like this Korg pedal that I'm trying to figure out, where they take a larger value pot and restrict the travel so you're only using a portion of the pot's total value.

I'm not familiar with the pedal in question--just musing out loud from an electronics point of view.

Grey
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#2882328 - 09/29/17 08:19 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
wjones Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/02/13
Posts: 40
Both function fine. It's an angle and feel issue, I think.

The EV-5 served me well for almost 20 years, but I wanted something the felt better to use and had a better build quality. So I moved the EV-5 onto my guitar pedalboard and picked up the FC7 (because so many sing its praises).

I've played with all the adjustments on the FC7 (for angle and such) and I simply don't enjoy using it.

The Korg XVP20 looks might nice. Pricey, but nice. I'm curious to know if anyone is using one with a Nord- my Stage 3 hopefully will be here in a few weeks, and I'd love to upgrade this pedal before it arrives.
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#2882338 - 09/29/17 08:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
Phreakay Offline
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Seems like a long throw pedal like the FC7 is not to your liking. I like long throw pedals as they are closest to the classic Hammond swell pedal.

If a short throw pedal is more to your liking the M-Audio EXP sends midi over its full range of travel, and is one of the lowest cost pedals available.
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#2882370 - 09/29/17 11:01 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: wjones


The Korg XVP20 looks might nice. Pricey, but nice. I'm curious to know if anyone is using one with a Nord- my Stage 3 hopefully will be here in a few weeks, and I'd love to upgrade this pedal before it arrives.


This one's perplexing. The description states 50k-100k or from the manual:
Input impedance: 50K or greater.

I have no idea what this means - Is it the volume or expression side? Both?
Pot value? Wtf? Hoping someone gets their hands on one to measure.

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#2882379 - 09/29/17 11:41 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
wjones Offline
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Registered: 07/02/13
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I believe that's a big part of the problem. I learned to play "organ" on the Roland pedal (not a real Hammond), so the FC7 has a very different throw than what I'm used to. It also has that extra bit of volume left that you have to press to get- which seems cool, but for me, it makes the top volume feel a bit squishy rather than hitting a harder, more satisfying maximum throw.
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#2882389 - 09/29/17 12:38 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
matted stump Offline
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Originally Posted By: wjones
the FC7 has a very different throw than what I'm used to. It also has that extra bit of volume left that you have to press to get- which seems cool, but for me, it makes the top volume feel a bit squishy rather than hitting a harder, more satisfying maximum throw.


Yes, that's lame. Fortunately, there is a screw adjustment under the pedal that allows you to dial that out. Turn the recessed screw labeled Spring Point Adjust fully CCW to disable the spring.
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#2882414 - 09/29/17 03:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: matted stump]
wjones Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/02/13
Posts: 40
Thanks for the tip! I'll crank that puppy down and see how I like it. Unfortunately, I think the throw will be (or at least seem) even longer.

I see a Korg XVP-20 in my future. I'll even test the impedance when it comes in... for science!
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StudioLogic SL88 Grand
The CAT by Octave
Hohner Melodica

Leslie 145
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#2882416 - 09/29/17 04:01 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: wjones]
matted stump Offline
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Embrace the longer throw. It's not even as long as on a real Hammond. You don't typically spend a lot of time pumping a volume pedal back and forth, and longer throw == more precision to get the value you need.

I used to have the short throw Roland pedals and grew to hate them. The only thing I found them good for was wah wah.
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#2882424 - 09/29/17 04:47 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: matted stump]
burningbusch Offline
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I have the Roland RV-7. It does minimum control. Very nice pedal. Long throw. My Yamaha pedals have gotten scratchy over time. The RV-7 is not sealed but nicely enclosed. I just opened mine after many years of it's very clean inside. Good organ expression pedal. Hate the EV-5 in comparison.

Busch.

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#2882430 - 09/29/17 06:43 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: burningbusch]
hardware Offline
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Registered: 03/04/14
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Loc: Nashville, TN.
I used an EV-5 for years.
When it arrived I was pissed on how small it was, but it's been 100% accurate hitting the desired MIDI CC points on larger controllers, so I kept it to kick on ducking delay AUX Channels for solos.
I could pick 47 for the perfect mix of Delay and MIDI Monitors showed it's dead on balls accurate every time.
After a few weeks of Source Audio pedals I'm finally getting used to their skinny but decent size.
Just wish every Expression Pedal was the size of the FC7 and had that Anaconda mouth...
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#2882496 - 09/30/17 09:21 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
DarkyLord Offline
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Hey guys-
I'm back from NY and I'm working on an update - should be ready early next week.

Busch- thanks for the reverse switch presence (I assume you meant EV-7) I also assume the EV-7 is wired same as EV-5 (Wiper to Tip). Appreciate if you can confirm

Does anyone know how the cable on the Crumar pedals are wired? Hoping Andrea is keeping tabs on this thread

Also Markay advised printing to pdf which I should then be able to post. It'll be great to be back on the bleeding edge of technology (Joe) facepalm grin

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#2882545 - 09/30/17 03:50 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Karl Schmeer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 187
Loc: State of Misery
Nice Work Markyboard!!
I have a Proline that I picked up as a spare, if you would like to add it to the list. I can ohm it out.


BTW Thanks again for the capacitor supplier link. I just received 500 pcs and they seem to be just what I need.
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#2882546 - 09/30/17 04:01 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Karl Schmeer]
DarkyLord Offline
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Happy I could help Karl and absolutely I'll include the Proline. The intent is to develop and maintain a comprehensive list.

Thanks twothumbs

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#2882549 - 09/30/17 04:13 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Karl Schmeer Offline
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Ok be back soon with specs
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#2882560 - 09/30/17 04:44 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
OB Grave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 904
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Does anyone know how the cable on the Crumar pedals are wired?


Yamaha FC7 works perfectly on Crumar Mojo 61, so that'd be wiper on ring.

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#2882574 - 09/30/17 06:17 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
OB Grave Offline
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Registered: 04/25/09
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Loc: San Diego CA, US
Also, Hammond EXP-20 is 10k ohms, wiper on tip.

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#2882587 - 09/30/17 08:56 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: hardware
I used an EV-5 for years.
When it arrived I was pissed on how small it was, but it's been 100% accurate hitting the desired MIDI CC points on larger controllers ...


I´m using the same EV5 I bought when I got my old MK80 somewhere 1989!
The EV5 works like day one here and even I toured w/ it for decades.
It´s small, it looks cheap, it´s plastic,- but it still WORKS!

In addition I use 2 Yammi FC7 which I bought together w/ my KX88 in 1987, so they are older and still WORK too.

2 of my MOOG 1120 CV pedals and the OBX pedal I own work flawlessly,- that´s antique compared to EV5 or FC7.

The latest I bought in 2011 are Fatar VP-25 for KURZ PC361 and they work perfect up to now.

I dunno what people do with their pedals destroying ´em quickly, but I can imagine when organ is the main axe, a pot might wear out earlier (depending on pot quality) and mechanics too.

That said, I managed cracking a portion of a tooth from the cogwheel of a MOOG 1120 mechanics and these pedals are build like tanks.
So I think, bad luck is a factor too !

A.C.

P.S.:
I´m searching a cogwheel for a MOOG 1120 pedal.
You might imagine, in germany, I have a problem finding something w/ the same count of teeth, grub scew and fitting the diameter (in inches) of an Allen Bradley 100K pot´s shaft.

When someone knows a ressource for a replacement, original NOS, used or new,- please PM.

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#2882593 - 09/30/17 10:47 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but do we know whether the specs for those models have been consistent throughout their run?

In the related category of Volume Pedals (ones that apply attenuation to audio signal vs. ones that augment volume via MIDI CC), I am pretty sure that impedance and other specs have changed over the years on several models without a change in model designation.
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#2882595 - 09/30/17 11:21 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mark Schmieder]
Karl Schmeer Offline
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Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 187
Loc: State of Misery
Okay I took my 2017 Proline Expression pedal apart and checked everything w/ an ohmmeter just to be sure.


Proline Audio: Standard Model

Has Polarity Switch On Bottom and minimum adjustment on left side

Sweep Potentiometer: 10 K

Jack Connection: TRS Wiper on T or R Depending on Polarity Switch

Minimum Adjust Potentiometer: 50 K

I also took my 2010 EV-5 apart and compared the two.
Electrically they are almost identical except the Proline
has a 1K resistor in series w/ wiper of the sweep potentiometer. And the EV-5 has no polarity switch.

For Grins, I also measured the travel of all my pedals.

Proline 1.5"
Roland EV-5 1.2"
Yamaha FC-7 3.2"

Hope this Helps smirk
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#2882598 - 10/01/17 12:33 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Karl Schmeer]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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I bet that was a bit of a surprise, but the differences were slight.

The travel of the Yamaha vs. the Roland is also much greater than I realized. I'm one of the "long travel" people, and actually like the EXP for my Hammond XK-1c the best of all.
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Yamaha WX5, Hammond XK1c, Moog Voyager, DSI Prophet12

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#2882635 - 10/01/17 08:26 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mark Schmieder]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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OK I think I got this shared Google Docs thing happening after recovering my account from years ago.

Shared Pedal Summary Ver3


Let me know if I missed anyone's comments and continue to provide corrections/additions. Still missing some data so if you have it please pass it on.




Edited by Markyboard (10/01/17 09:16 AM)

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#2882637 - 10/01/17 08:33 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mark Schmieder]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but do we know whether the specs for those models have been consistent throughout their run?

In the related category of Volume Pedals (ones that apply attenuation to audio signal vs. ones that augment volume via MIDI CC), I am pretty sure that impedance and other specs have changed over the years on several models without a change in model designation.



You raise a good point Mark although I haven't seen anything with expression pedals in this regard. Not saying it hasn't happened, I just haven't run across it in any of my research. I did find several occurrences of volume pedals where they changed the pot value. Must be those guitarist who can never make up their mind . grin

I suggest if we do run across this we can always note it in the comments.

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#2882648 - 10/01/17 09:48 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Theo Verelst Offline
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Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 3618
I didn't know that about the Kurz pedal, but I'vebeen too busy with the sound to care much about pedals. I used to have a pedal I made myself with a keyboard that didn't originally have an input for it, which was cool to compare with organ playing. I'd say normally there's a difference between a volume and an expression pedal, but hey, we're not infants, so maybe that's not the most important.

It's also, just like with the "keyboard" discussions, questionable if that hidden glorious sound is coming to come from adding a proper volume pedal to an organ which is a clone, because normally the sound isn't going to get much of a different character, unless you want to use the pedal as some digital hurdygurdy playing device, like on the PC3 there are sounds where turning the mod wheel generates a idea reminiscent of bowing a string.

T.

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#2882652 - 10/01/17 10:15 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Theo Verelst]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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#2882654 - 10/01/17 11:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Got it - Description on one vendor's site shows "A custom potentiometer"?

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#2882686 - 10/01/17 03:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
brenner13 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 939
Loc: Kansas
Recently preordered Studiologic's FP/50. Haven't a clue about its specs, just looks like an extremely long throw and moderately priced. Expected to arrive mid-January.
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#2882690 - 10/01/17 04:07 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: brenner13]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: brenner13
Recently preordered Studiologic's FP/50. Haven't a clue about its specs, just looks like an extremely long throw and moderately priced. Expected to arrive mid-January.


Got it- and found the specs. Thanks!

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#2882693 - 10/01/17 04:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Bone Muskeleton Offline
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Registered: 02/21/05
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Originally Posted By: OB Dave
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Does anyone know how the cable on the Crumar pedals are wired?


Yamaha FC7 works perfectly on Crumar Mojo 61, so that'd be wiper on ring.
That's interesting, since the Mojo 61 manual recommends a 10k pedal, but the FC7 is 50k.

Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
I just got a Quik Lok pedal with a switchable polarity:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0049B3GFC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Does it feel like a long throw? If you want to try it with a Mojo 61, you know what to do. wink I'd like to try it myself.

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#2882700 - 10/01/17 04:54 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Theo Verelst]
OB Grave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 904
Loc: San Diego CA, US
I honestly wouldn't worry too much about differences in resistance value for a keyboard expression pedal. Internal to the keyboard there will be a resistor in series with the supply voltage to protect against a dead short at the connector. This would typically be in the couple-hundred-ohms range. So the difference between a 10k or 50k pot is going to be pretty negligible. 97 percent-ish of the voltage voltage drop will occur within the wiper's travel, which is what will be read by the analog-to-digital converter that's reading expression pedal position.



Edited by OB Dave (10/01/17 05:00 PM)
Edit Reason: added a sexy pic

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#2882728 - 10/01/17 08:14 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Grave]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Registered: 03/27/08
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Sensitivity to resistance probably depends on the particular keyboard (and circuits involved).
I do know that, on a Kurzweil PC3 series, all other things the same, using a 25k pot instead of the specified 10k pot does make a difference. Not so much in the total amount of volume change, but the 25k concentrates most of the change in a smaller part of the travel (from max volume to min volume). More pleasant to use, with a larger travel range.

Electronic theory would be that perhaps the input impedance of the circuitry in the PC3 series is low enough on the connection to the pot wiper that the higher resistance pot causes the voltage on the wiper to decrease more rapidly as the wiper goes from maximum voltage to minimum voltage. (If one draws a schematic of this, it would show as an additional resistance between the pot wiper and ground, which would be in parallel with the resistance of the pot).
_________________________
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#2882746 - 10/01/17 11:05 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Phreakay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2630
Loc: Australia
My experience was similar to yours Jim with the FC7 plugged into an M-Audio Axiom. It maxed out at about 75% of travel and was constantly changing values if held in between min and max - jumping from 47 to 48 and then down to 46 for examp!e.

With the M-Audio and Hammond EXP-50 pedals midi was read smoothly from min to max over full pedal travel and rock stable in between. That's my requirement for an expression pedal to be described as working perfectly.
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"He helped me onto the bottom rung as a musician, from which, I might add, I never ascended" Glyn Johns - Sound Man

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#2882754 - 10/01/17 11:51 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
OB Grave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 904
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Based on this I am guessing the problem you experienced is mostly likely caused by the Axiom expecting the Roland wiring convention. Some keyboards have a menu option to allow you to select which pedal wiring standard.

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#2882756 - 10/02/17 01:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Grave]
Phreakay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
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No the above was with an adaptor, I was fortunate to receive a early production one from our new supplier, without was the same as described in the link, 67 to 127 received.
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#2882779 - 10/02/17 06:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: OB Dave
I honestly wouldn't worry too much about differences in resistance value for a keyboard expression pedal. Internal to the keyboard there will be a resistor in series with the supply voltage to protect against a dead short at the connector. This would typically be in the couple-hundred-ohms range. So the difference between a 10k or 50k pot is going to be pretty negligible. 97 percent-ish of the voltage voltage drop will occur within the wiper's travel, which is what will be read by the analog-to-digital converter that's reading expression pedal position.


OK - now that we have a pretty good summary chart, time to draw some conclusions. Starting with....

1) I'm an idiot blush. I previously stated (or supported) that a 50K pot pedal used where a 10K pot pedal is called for would reach maximum value at its 10k point and the rest was dead spaced. NOT TRUE! The pedal interface A/D cares about voltage, not resistance. The wiper at the half-way point of the pedal yields the same voltage whether the pot is 10K,25K, 50K or 5 Million K. As Dave pointed out this assumes keyboard internal resistor is much smaller then the pot value - which it is (better be). Yay OB Dave twothumbs

2) I believe someone mentioned concern for damaging the keyboard if the wrong pedal is used. It won't as long as it's a passive (expression) pedal. An active CV pedal can definitely do damage. All expression pedals get down very close to 0 ohms at their minimum setting. Some pedals have their own short circuit protection resistor - but again ground at the pedal input should not hurt the keyboard - otherwise it's a crappy design and you don't want it anyway laugh

3) I just tested/retested 3 different boards using a F-7, FV500-L and EV-5 while monitoring the resulting midi data out of the pedal. As long as the connection of the tip/ring/sleeve is as the keyboard expects all worked over the full range - ALMOST. The 10K pedals fell short by 2-3 counts at the top of their range (pedal maxed out) on my M-audio controller and Poly Evolver. Still this supports OB Daves contention.

4)

Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Sensitivity to resistance probably depends on the particular keyboard (and circuits involved).


Totally agree. Also not all FC-7s are created equal. I'm seeing more dead space in one vs another - still not a lot. There's error with the pot values and minor physical property inconsistencies. Btw Not sure why your PC3 behaves different then mine. All 3 pedals worked with mine with sweep resulting in all 128 values.


Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys

Electronic theory would be that perhaps the input impedance of the circuitry in the PC3 series is low enough on the connection to the pot wiper that the higher resistance pot causes the voltage on the wiper to decrease more rapidly as the wiper goes from maximum voltage to minimum voltage. (If one draws a schematic of this, it would show as an additional resistance between the pot wiper and ground, which would be in parallel with the resistance of the pot).


Again not seeing this on mine. It's a linear pot and mine behaves in a linear fashion - best I can tell. But you do bring up a good point....

5) Larger pot values are harder to control and need more "throw" for better accuracy/operation. I think that's why you don't see 50K pots being used in short throw pedals. Think about trimmer pots that use 25 turns. If the whole range was covered in 1 turn it would be near impossible to dial in on a specific resistance (as I found when modding my Andromeda pedal interface).

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#2882824 - 10/02/17 08:50 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Registered: 03/27/08
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The 25K pot did travel from MIDI value 0 to 127 - but went from one extreme to the other in considerably less than the full physical throw of the pedal.
The 10K pot goes from MIDI 0 to 127 - and does so over the full physical throw of the pedal.
I agree that the varying voltage on the wiper is the key, but that voltage can also vary depending on what is connected to that wiper.

Come to think of it, it has been a while since I swapped out the 25K pots (these were inside Fatar branded pedals that are the same size and shape as the Kurzweil CC1). I use the pedals on both my collection of PC3 and my collection of PC2 (for that matter also on a Hammond SK1). It is possible that the difference might have been on the PC2. I just know that in order to get pedals that I could connect any pedal to any of my keyboards, I had to change the two 25K to 10K so that all four of them were 10K. The 25K worked on some but not all of the boards (this was before I got the SK1, don't know about it).

I no longer have the 25K pots (and changing them was not the easiest thing to do - just finding 10K that would physically fit and making the gear line up on the pot so that it engaged the track on the pedal took a bit of doing).
_________________________
Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
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#2883355 - 10/04/17 05:08 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
burningbusch Offline
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Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 7586
Loc: Ghost Planet
Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.

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#2883359 - 10/04/17 05:38 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: burningbusch]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Loc: Take a guess ....
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.
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57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; dyinbreedband.com; thewildthingsrock.webs.com

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#2883361 - 10/04/17 05:56 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: burningbusch]
DarkyLord Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.


Thanks - got it captured.

Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.


Thanks Dave - I saw the schematic and the 10K pot value came from this:
Fatar FP50

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#2883362 - 10/04/17 05:59 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
I wonder if DB or Joe could let me edit the first post of this thread in order to put the current link to the Google spreadsheet right up front. I sure do like that shared Google docs; almost better than my hi-tech camera approach laugh

BTW you guys are seeing my updates? idk


Edited by DarkyLord (10/04/17 06:01 PM)

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#2883382 - 10/04/17 08:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
count doerflera Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
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PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.
_________________________
I need to practice more than I do, and that will make my current gear - first rate, by any measure - sound even better than it already does.
Tim Wat

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#2883413 - 10/05/17 05:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: count doerflera]
hardware Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 03/04/14
Posts: 1059
Loc: Nashville, TN.
No mention of the FC7X-II.
If you really like the Anaconda mouth FC-7 but it has dead spots the Ashby adapter is a great accessory.
My Source Audio pedals just need TS and some dip switch setting for CV or exp.
EV5 works as us, FC7 turns into damn near CV quality when the FC7X-II is used.

I'd die for an FC-7 with the guts of a Reflex Pedal.
_________________________
Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic

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#2883422 - 10/05/17 06:31 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: count doerflera]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: count doerflera
PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.


Thanks - PM sent.

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#2883424 - 10/05/17 06:38 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: hardware
No mention of the FC7X-II.


It's not a pedal so I don't believe it belongs in the chart. Also these are discontinued by Ashby but a near identical product is available from me.

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#2883428 - 10/05/17 07:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 2692
Loc: Take a guess ....
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.


Thanks - got it captured.

Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.


Thanks Dave - I saw the schematic and the 10K pot value came from this:
Fatar FP50
That would be perfect, an FC7 type pedal with a 10K pot will work perfectly on my Kurzweil, although the polarity is backward. I have the Ashby adapter so this pedal probably has a better sweep than my EV-7 who polarity matches my Kurzweil and polarity also matches. The EV-7 is NLA, and used (if you can find one) is over $100. Crumar makes one for the Mojo and it is also a 10K pot but is also over $100. I think I am going to pickup one of these pedals, I think I saw it was only $40.
_________________________
57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; dyinbreedband.com; thewildthingsrock.webs.com

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#2883501 - 10/05/17 01:24 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: count doerflera]
Grave Bryce Administrator Offline
KCFFL Champ '14, '16
10k Club

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 18959
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: count doerflera
PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.

Thanks - PM sent.

Done!

dB
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rockit ==> ReverbNationSoundCloud <==rawk


Professional affiliations: Amphion Loudspeakers • Cloud Microphones • Crumar/GSi • elysia GmbH • Reverb Foundry • Roswell Pro Audio...and Electronic Musician

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#2883504 - 10/05/17 01:43 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Grave Bryce]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Perfect - thanks! twothumbs

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#2883520 - 10/05/17 03:44 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Phreakay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
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Loc: Australia
Looks good Mark, would it useful to add Keyboard compatabilty? For example Nord is compatible with Type I and Type II from about the Electro 3 era on, as are Hammond XK3, SK and XK, Roland is Type I etc.
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"He helped me onto the bottom rung as a musician, from which, I might add, I never ascended" Glyn Johns - Sound Man

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#2883531 - 10/05/17 06:00 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
hardware Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 03/04/14
Posts: 1059
Loc: Nashville, TN.
FCX7-II could be an accessory is a sub category if that would ever be added.
Ashby out of business?
Glad I bought another half dozen a few months back.
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Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic

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#2883533 - 10/05/17 06:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Markay
Looks good Mark, would it be useful to add Keyboard compatibility?


Definitely - that's been on my mind from the start inspired by the often repeated question "which expression pedal should I use for keyboard xxx?"

I have some other things in work but will return to this shortly. Thanks everyone-this is a really cool team effort that I think/hope benefits most everyone here.

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#2883536 - 10/05/17 06:18 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
DarkyLord Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: hardware
FCX7-II could be an accessory is a sub category if that would ever be added.
Ashby out of business?
Glad I bought another half dozen a few months back.


Will keep that sub-category in mind. AFAIK Ashby's still in business. IIRC Bruce just found the small market for these not viable. On the other hand I'm doing a limited edition followed by a signature edition and maybe even a Valentines Day edition.

Every kiss begins with Little Gray Electronics Polarity Inverting Adapter. PianoBanana

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#2883562 - 10/06/17 02:24 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Phreakay Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2630
Loc: Australia
Wot no road worn edition, rumbled, dipped in acid to promote that rusted look with one loose connection.
_________________________
MainStage | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P
"He helped me onto the bottom rung as a musician, from which, I might add, I never ascended" Glyn Johns - Sound Man

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#2884526 - 10/11/17 07:53 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 329
Loc: Northern California
OK, guys- here's the HOLY GRAIL of expression pedals. Just received mine today and it's so far above anything else I've used. I'll reluctantly share.


http://dbinstrumentamp.com

This DUAL AXIS pedal features 2 SETS (4 total) 25k pots. Each axis (Up/Down, Left/Right) can control 2 separate pedal inputs. For years, I've used modified Fender Tone/Volume pedals to get dual axis control for each keyboard (decades, actually, built my first ones in the late 70s, with 9v batteries to control my Prophet and Minimoog!). Up/Down is always Expression, L/R goes to the second pedal jack and is Leslie speed, crossfades, second layer volume, wah, filter cutoff, attack speed, whatever you can program your 'board to respond to. It's truly awesome. With this pedal, you can connect two 'boards in this way simultaneously to a single pedal.

This is a really well designed, engineered, and built pedal. Very solid and smooth with great throw length and controllability. There are switches to flip polarity, convert to a "TS" type pedal, even switch two of the pots to 10K. Not cheap, at $269, but wow, just wow.


Edited by Bill Spencer (10/11/17 08:16 PM)

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#2884531 - 10/11/17 08:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
matted stump Offline
Grand Poobah of the Trebuchet
10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15347
Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer
OK, guys- here's the HOLY GRAIL of expression pedals. Just received mine today and it's so far above anything else I've used. I'll reluctantly share.


http://dbinstrumentamp.com


Oooh. I need to cram a 2nd expression pedal on my already too crowded pedal board - I could control expression for 2 different keyboards from this?

How is the throw for organ? Long as FC-7?
_________________________
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---
Kawai Novus: "Please feel surprised even more."

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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#2884535 - 10/11/17 08:41 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: matted stump]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 329
Loc: Northern California
Yes, you could use U/D for one 'board and L/R for the other, or if you don't need independent control, connect both 'boards to the U/D jacks and control them both with one axis.

I'm not sure about the FC-7 but the specs for the 4E say 20° of travel for each axis.


Edited by Bill Spencer (10/11/17 09:09 PM)

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#2884549 - 10/11/17 09:47 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
OB Grave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 904
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Wow, that sounds pretty impressive except for the throw. The FC7 has 30 degrees of throw. I've never used a pedal with a side-to-side axis, but the FC7 at 30 degrees is about the minimum I'd want to use for expression. I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.

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#2884562 - 10/12/17 03:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
DarkyLord Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer


This is a really well designed, engineered, and built pedal. Very solid and smooth with great throw length and controllability. There are switches to flip polarity, convert to a "TS" type pedal, even switch two of the pots to 10K. Not cheap, at $269, but wow, just wow.


Hey cool - thanks Bill. Captured in spreadsheet based on your info. I don't have FB so let me know if corrections are needed.

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#2884563 - 10/12/17 03:58 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Grave]
DarkyLord Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: OB Grave
I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.


Pretty tight but maybe? Finding the right pot is the tricky part.


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#2884599 - 10/12/17 07:45 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3899
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer


This DUAL AXIS pedal features 2 SETS (4 total) 25k pots.
...
There are switches ..., even switch two of the pots to 10K.


I wonder why not possible for all FOUR pots,- and are the pots linear or logarithmic/ audio taper ?

For most keyboards, except those using Yamaha FC-7 (50K), we need 10K linear !

A.C.

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#2884618 - 10/12/17 08:58 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
DarkyLord Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Ah, just noticed the links to the specs. And they have another variation of this pedal that also has a dual I/O volume function
in the M440 model:





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#2884632 - 10/12/17 10:02 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Al Coda Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3899
Loc: out in the sticks
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Ah, just noticed the links to the specs. And they have another variation of this pedal that also has a dual I/O volume function
in the M440 model:


Up Down volume only potentiometer resistance 500k.

Panning potentiometer resistance 500k.

Up Down expression resistance is 50k linear
.

For sure the "PAN"-pot is for placement into the audio path of a given rig,- the 50K pot might be usable for expression or any MIDI CC like a Yammi FC7 pedal, but w/ limited throw (20°).

The other pedal mentioned above at least offers 1 pot for 10K expression when being switched to that value,- but IMO and for the price, it´s not very satisfying for a keyboardplayer when the demand is replacing 2 10K lin expression pedals by only ONE multi-functional pedal unit.

A.C.

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#2884636 - 10/12/17 10:27 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
matted stump Offline
Grand Poobah of the Trebuchet
10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15347
Originally Posted By: Al Coda

The other pedal mentioned above at least offers 1 pot for 10K expression when being switched to that value,- but IMO and for the price, it´s not very satisfying for a keyboardplayer when the demand is replacing 2 10K lin expression pedals by only ONE multi-functional pedal unit.

A.C.


I read that differently - "Potentiometers resistance 25k Linear. Switchable to 10k on U/D1 and L/R1." Seems you can get 10K on both axes.
_________________________
Moe
---
Kawai Novus: "Please feel surprised even more."

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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#2884667 - 10/12/17 03:01 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 329
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Al Coda


I wonder why not possible for all FOUR pots,- and are the pots linear or logarithmic/ audio taper ?

For most keyboards, except those using Yamaha FC-7 (50K), we need 10K linear !

A.C.


Pots are all linear, for use with pedal inputs. The other pedal they offer has Log taper pots for use with audio signals.

I tried it with my Kurx PC3K and, although the specs say it wants to see 10k, it works great on the 25k setting, too.

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#2884668 - 10/12/17 03:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 329
Loc: Northern California
Today I added USB MIDI to one of my new 4E pedals. Amazing.

Installed LIVID's "Brain Jr." board. $50, fits like it was made for it. For use with MainStage, and still leaves one set of jacks to use. WHEEE!!




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#2884669 - 10/12/17 03:11 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: matted stump]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 329
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: matted stump


I read that differently - "Potentiometers resistance 25k Linear. Switchable to 10k on U/D1 and L/R1." Seems you can get 10K on both axes.


Yep- one SET of pots can be switched to 10k.


Edited by Bill Spencer (10/12/17 03:11 PM)

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#2884727 - 10/12/17 09:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
OB Grave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 904
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: OB Grave
I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.


Pretty tight but maybe? Finding the right pot is the tricky part.



Aw man, that cavity was made for a dual-gang pot. I think it'll just fit. Ok, ima have to dissect one of mine and go pot shopping. Stay tuned...

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#2884734 - 10/12/17 11:57 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Grave]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 329
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: OB Grave
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: OB Grave
I should open one of mine up and see if there's a way to get a dual-gang pot in there.


Pretty tight but maybe? Finding the right pot is the tricky part.






Aw man, that cavity was made for a dual-gang pot. I think it'll just fit. Ok, ima have to dissect one of mine and go pot shopping. Stay tuned...


It will fit. GO FOR IT!

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#2884745 - 10/13/17 04:18 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
DarkyLord Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
OK - my bad! But shame on you guys for trusting my ability to use Google facepalm . Here's another pic of the same pedal:



Not sure which pedal this is - but it's not an FC-7. I've reversed polarity on several of my FC-7s and my recollection is that it would be difficult to change out the pot, but I could be wrong. Thought I had pics of my rework but I guess not - my apologies.

Btw Bill that little midi usb board you added is really cool - nice job twothumbs . I may just find a use for one of those in the future.


Edited by DarkyLord (10/13/17 04:25 AM)

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#2884763 - 10/13/17 06:45 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Bill Spencer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 329
Loc: Northern California

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#2885073 - 10/14/17 07:02 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
OB Grave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 904
Loc: San Diego CA, US
Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Not sure which pedal this is - but it's not an FC-7.

Hahahah, you're right. It's not an FC-7. I discovered this when I opened my my FC-7. It looks completely different inside.



It's actually kind of a beautifully designed pedal. The FC-7 doesn't use a gear, instead there's a spring-loaded cam, and there's this whole other crazy thing in there to give the pedal some friction. The pot is an Alps but 116G doesn't appear to be a standard Alps part number, and going through the catalog I don't see anything exactly like it. Alps appears to only be distributed by Mouser in the US and I didn't find it there either. I am guessing this is a special pot made for Yamaha.

However, I took some measurements with a caliper and found an Alps mechanical drawing for a very similar pot - I am guessing the mechanical components are used for the special Yamaha pot - and using that drawing I did find three potential candidates that all have the same approximate shaft length and type. All 10k linear dual-gang pots, one Alps, one Bourns, and one Taiwan Alpha. I need to order up some other stuff anyway so I'll throw these on the order and see what I can make any of 'em work when they arrive.

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