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#2882652 - 10/01/17 10:15 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Theo Verelst]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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#2882654 - 10/01/17 11:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
DarkyLord Offline
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Got it - Description on one vendor's site shows "A custom potentiometer"?

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#2882686 - 10/01/17 03:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
brenner13 Offline
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Recently preordered Studiologic's FP/50. Haven't a clue about its specs, just looks like an extremely long throw and moderately priced. Expected to arrive mid-January.
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#2882690 - 10/01/17 04:07 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: brenner13]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: brenner13
Recently preordered Studiologic's FP/50. Haven't a clue about its specs, just looks like an extremely long throw and moderately priced. Expected to arrive mid-January.


Got it- and found the specs. Thanks!

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#2882693 - 10/01/17 04:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Bone Muskeleton Offline
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Originally Posted By: OB Dave
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Does anyone know how the cable on the Crumar pedals are wired?


Yamaha FC7 works perfectly on Crumar Mojo 61, so that'd be wiper on ring.
That's interesting, since the Mojo 61 manual recommends a 10k pedal, but the FC7 is 50k.

Originally Posted By: FunkKeyStuff
I just got a Quik Lok pedal with a switchable polarity:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0049B3GFC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Does it feel like a long throw? If you want to try it with a Mojo 61, you know what to do. wink I'd like to try it myself.

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#2882700 - 10/01/17 04:54 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Theo Verelst]
OB Grave Offline
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I honestly wouldn't worry too much about differences in resistance value for a keyboard expression pedal. Internal to the keyboard there will be a resistor in series with the supply voltage to protect against a dead short at the connector. This would typically be in the couple-hundred-ohms range. So the difference between a 10k or 50k pot is going to be pretty negligible. 97 percent-ish of the voltage voltage drop will occur within the wiper's travel, which is what will be read by the analog-to-digital converter that's reading expression pedal position.



Edited by OB Dave (10/01/17 05:00 PM)
Edit Reason: added a sexy pic

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#2882728 - 10/01/17 08:14 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Grave]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Sensitivity to resistance probably depends on the particular keyboard (and circuits involved).
I do know that, on a Kurzweil PC3 series, all other things the same, using a 25k pot instead of the specified 10k pot does make a difference. Not so much in the total amount of volume change, but the 25k concentrates most of the change in a smaller part of the travel (from max volume to min volume). More pleasant to use, with a larger travel range.

Electronic theory would be that perhaps the input impedance of the circuitry in the PC3 series is low enough on the connection to the pot wiper that the higher resistance pot causes the voltage on the wiper to decrease more rapidly as the wiper goes from maximum voltage to minimum voltage. (If one draws a schematic of this, it would show as an additional resistance between the pot wiper and ground, which would be in parallel with the resistance of the pot).
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#2882746 - 10/01/17 11:05 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Phreakay Offline
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My experience was similar to yours Jim with the FC7 plugged into an M-Audio Axiom. It maxed out at about 75% of travel and was constantly changing values if held in between min and max - jumping from 47 to 48 and then down to 46 for examp!e.

With the M-Audio and Hammond EXP-50 pedals midi was read smoothly from min to max over full pedal travel and rock stable in between. That's my requirement for an expression pedal to be described as working perfectly.
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#2882754 - 10/01/17 11:51 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
OB Grave Offline
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Based on this I am guessing the problem you experienced is mostly likely caused by the Axiom expecting the Roland wiring convention. Some keyboards have a menu option to allow you to select which pedal wiring standard.

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#2882756 - 10/02/17 01:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: OB Grave]
Phreakay Offline
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No the above was with an adaptor, I was fortunate to receive a early production one from our new supplier, without was the same as described in the link, 67 to 127 received.
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#2882779 - 10/02/17 06:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: OB Dave
I honestly wouldn't worry too much about differences in resistance value for a keyboard expression pedal. Internal to the keyboard there will be a resistor in series with the supply voltage to protect against a dead short at the connector. This would typically be in the couple-hundred-ohms range. So the difference between a 10k or 50k pot is going to be pretty negligible. 97 percent-ish of the voltage voltage drop will occur within the wiper's travel, which is what will be read by the analog-to-digital converter that's reading expression pedal position.


OK - now that we have a pretty good summary chart, time to draw some conclusions. Starting with....

1) I'm an idiot blush. I previously stated (or supported) that a 50K pot pedal used where a 10K pot pedal is called for would reach maximum value at its 10k point and the rest was dead spaced. NOT TRUE! The pedal interface A/D cares about voltage, not resistance. The wiper at the half-way point of the pedal yields the same voltage whether the pot is 10K,25K, 50K or 5 Million K. As Dave pointed out this assumes keyboard internal resistor is much smaller then the pot value - which it is (better be). Yay OB Dave twothumbs

2) I believe someone mentioned concern for damaging the keyboard if the wrong pedal is used. It won't as long as it's a passive (expression) pedal. An active CV pedal can definitely do damage. All expression pedals get down very close to 0 ohms at their minimum setting. Some pedals have their own short circuit protection resistor - but again ground at the pedal input should not hurt the keyboard - otherwise it's a crappy design and you don't want it anyway laugh

3) I just tested/retested 3 different boards using a F-7, FV500-L and EV-5 while monitoring the resulting midi data out of the pedal. As long as the connection of the tip/ring/sleeve is as the keyboard expects all worked over the full range - ALMOST. The 10K pedals fell short by 2-3 counts at the top of their range (pedal maxed out) on my M-audio controller and Poly Evolver. Still this supports OB Daves contention.

4)

Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Sensitivity to resistance probably depends on the particular keyboard (and circuits involved).


Totally agree. Also not all FC-7s are created equal. I'm seeing more dead space in one vs another - still not a lot. There's error with the pot values and minor physical property inconsistencies. Btw Not sure why your PC3 behaves different then mine. All 3 pedals worked with mine with sweep resulting in all 128 values.


Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys

Electronic theory would be that perhaps the input impedance of the circuitry in the PC3 series is low enough on the connection to the pot wiper that the higher resistance pot causes the voltage on the wiper to decrease more rapidly as the wiper goes from maximum voltage to minimum voltage. (If one draws a schematic of this, it would show as an additional resistance between the pot wiper and ground, which would be in parallel with the resistance of the pot).


Again not seeing this on mine. It's a linear pot and mine behaves in a linear fashion - best I can tell. But you do bring up a good point....

5) Larger pot values are harder to control and need more "throw" for better accuracy/operation. I think that's why you don't see 50K pots being used in short throw pedals. Think about trimmer pots that use 25 turns. If the whole range was covered in 1 turn it would be near impossible to dial in on a specific resistance (as I found when modding my Andromeda pedal interface).

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#2882824 - 10/02/17 08:50 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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The 25K pot did travel from MIDI value 0 to 127 - but went from one extreme to the other in considerably less than the full physical throw of the pedal.
The 10K pot goes from MIDI 0 to 127 - and does so over the full physical throw of the pedal.
I agree that the varying voltage on the wiper is the key, but that voltage can also vary depending on what is connected to that wiper.

Come to think of it, it has been a while since I swapped out the 25K pots (these were inside Fatar branded pedals that are the same size and shape as the Kurzweil CC1). I use the pedals on both my collection of PC3 and my collection of PC2 (for that matter also on a Hammond SK1). It is possible that the difference might have been on the PC2. I just know that in order to get pedals that I could connect any pedal to any of my keyboards, I had to change the two 25K to 10K so that all four of them were 10K. The 25K worked on some but not all of the boards (this was before I got the SK1, don't know about it).

I no longer have the 25K pots (and changing them was not the easiest thing to do - just finding 10K that would physically fit and making the gear line up on the pot so that it engaged the track on the pedal took a bit of doing).
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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
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#2883355 - 10/04/17 05:08 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
burningbusch Offline
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Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.

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#2883359 - 10/04/17 05:38 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: burningbusch]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Loc: Take a guess ....
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.
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#2883361 - 10/04/17 05:56 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: burningbusch]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.


Thanks - got it captured.

Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.


Thanks Dave - I saw the schematic and the 10K pot value came from this:
Fatar FP50

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#2883362 - 10/04/17 05:59 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
DarkyLord Offline
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I wonder if DB or Joe could let me edit the first post of this thread in order to put the current link to the Google spreadsheet right up front. I sure do like that shared Google docs; almost better than my hi-tech camera approach laugh

BTW you guys are seeing my updates? idk


Edited by DarkyLord (10/04/17 06:01 PM)

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#2883382 - 10/04/17 08:40 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
count doerflera Offline
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PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.
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#2883413 - 10/05/17 05:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: count doerflera]
hardware Offline
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No mention of the FC7X-II.
If you really like the Anaconda mouth FC-7 but it has dead spots the Ashby adapter is a great accessory.
My Source Audio pedals just need TS and some dip switch setting for CV or exp.
EV5 works as us, FC7 turns into damn near CV quality when the FC7X-II is used.

I'd die for an FC-7 with the guts of a Reflex Pedal.
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#2883422 - 10/05/17 06:31 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: count doerflera]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: count doerflera
PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.


Thanks - PM sent.

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#2883424 - 10/05/17 06:38 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: hardware
No mention of the FC7X-II.


It's not a pedal so I don't believe it belongs in the chart. Also these are discontinued by Ashby but a near identical product is available from me.

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#2883428 - 10/05/17 07:00 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Roland EV-7 is 10K, wiper on tip.

Busch.


Thanks - got it captured.

Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
According to the schematic the studiologic Fp50 is wiper on ring so it wired like a Yamaha. There's no pot spec; my guess is that it is 50k like the FC7.


Thanks Dave - I saw the schematic and the 10K pot value came from this:
Fatar FP50
That would be perfect, an FC7 type pedal with a 10K pot will work perfectly on my Kurzweil, although the polarity is backward. I have the Ashby adapter so this pedal probably has a better sweep than my EV-7 who polarity matches my Kurzweil and polarity also matches. The EV-7 is NLA, and used (if you can find one) is over $100. Crumar makes one for the Mojo and it is also a 10K pot but is also over $100. I think I am going to pickup one of these pedals, I think I saw it was only $40.
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#2883501 - 10/05/17 01:24 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: count doerflera]
Grave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: DarkyLord
Originally Posted By: count doerflera
PM dB and ask, Joe no can do.

Thanks - PM sent.

Done!

dB
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#2883504 - 10/05/17 01:43 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Grave Bryce]
DarkyLord Offline
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Perfect - thanks! twothumbs

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#2883520 - 10/05/17 03:44 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Phreakay Offline
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Looks good Mark, would it useful to add Keyboard compatabilty? For example Nord is compatible with Type I and Type II from about the Electro 3 era on, as are Hammond XK3, SK and XK, Roland is Type I etc.
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#2883531 - 10/05/17 06:00 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
hardware Offline
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FCX7-II could be an accessory is a sub category if that would ever be added.
Ashby out of business?
Glad I bought another half dozen a few months back.
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#2883533 - 10/05/17 06:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay
Looks good Mark, would it be useful to add Keyboard compatibility?


Definitely - that's been on my mind from the start inspired by the often repeated question "which expression pedal should I use for keyboard xxx?"

I have some other things in work but will return to this shortly. Thanks everyone-this is a really cool team effort that I think/hope benefits most everyone here.

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#2883536 - 10/05/17 06:18 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: hardware]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: hardware
FCX7-II could be an accessory is a sub category if that would ever be added.
Ashby out of business?
Glad I bought another half dozen a few months back.


Will keep that sub-category in mind. AFAIK Ashby's still in business. IIRC Bruce just found the small market for these not viable. On the other hand I'm doing a limited edition followed by a signature edition and maybe even a Valentines Day edition.

Every kiss begins with Little Gray Electronics Polarity Inverting Adapter. PianoBanana

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#2883562 - 10/06/17 02:24 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Phreakay Offline
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Wot no road worn edition, rumbled, dipped in acid to promote that rusted look with one loose connection.
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#2884526 - 10/11/17 07:53 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Registered: 05/15/11
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OK, guys- here's the HOLY GRAIL of expression pedals. Just received mine today and it's so far above anything else I've used. I'll reluctantly share.


http://dbinstrumentamp.com

This DUAL AXIS pedal features 2 SETS (4 total) 25k pots. Each axis (Up/Down, Left/Right) can control 2 separate pedal inputs. For years, I've used modified Fender Tone/Volume pedals to get dual axis control for each keyboard (decades, actually, built my first ones in the late 70s, with 9v batteries to control my Prophet and Minimoog!). Up/Down is always Expression, L/R goes to the second pedal jack and is Leslie speed, crossfades, second layer volume, wah, filter cutoff, attack speed, whatever you can program your 'board to respond to. It's truly awesome. With this pedal, you can connect two 'boards in this way simultaneously to a single pedal.

This is a really well designed, engineered, and built pedal. Very solid and smooth with great throw length and controllability. There are switches to flip polarity, convert to a "TS" type pedal, even switch two of the pots to 10K. Not cheap, at $269, but wow, just wow.


Edited by Bill Spencer (10/11/17 08:16 PM)

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#2884531 - 10/11/17 08:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Bill Spencer]
matted stump Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer
OK, guys- here's the HOLY GRAIL of expression pedals. Just received mine today and it's so far above anything else I've used. I'll reluctantly share.


http://dbinstrumentamp.com


Oooh. I need to cram a 2nd expression pedal on my already too crowded pedal board - I could control expression for 2 different keyboards from this?

How is the throw for organ? Long as FC-7?
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