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#2881904 - 09/27/17 11:29 AM Expression Pedal Summary
DarkyLord Offline
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Here's my first second attempt at an Expression Pedal Summary. I think it covers most Expression and active CV pedals we've talked about, and then some. It may be somewhat cryptic but hopefully useful in steering folks to pedals compatible with their keyboard of choice. I didn't include price as that info varies and can easily be obtained. I welcome inputs, corrections etc. Also if someone would like to host the next version Excel spreadsheet for me that would be great.

Shared Pedal Summary Ver3

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#2881910 - 09/27/17 12:14 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
AnotherScott Offline
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Excellent work!

Other criteria that might matter to people (perhaps these additions could be crowd-sourced, assuming you don't have immediate access to all these pedals)... the angle of the pedal at full off and full on (which, between them, I think would also let you know the total travel, for those who prefer short travel or long travel pedals).
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#2881918 - 09/27/17 01:34 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
GRollins Offline
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I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H. From what I've been able to gather, the working resistance seems to be 0-20k, but that seems to be a relatively narrow (~30-45 degrees) portion of the total rotation of the pot (assumed to be 100k, but no guarantees). I have been unable to find any information regarding the connections.

One poster in my thread on the matter felt that the pedal had a relatively short travel, subjectively.

I remember beginning investigations into a pedal for my Yamaha--might have been the FC7 that you list above--but got distracted and never followed through. If I get back to that and if my Yamaha takes that particular pedal, then your notes will come in quite handy, so thanks.

Grey
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#2881923 - 09/27/17 02:04 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott


Other criteria that might matter to people (perhaps these additions could be crowd-sourced, assuming you don't have immediate access to all these pedals)... the angle of the pedal at full off and full on (which, between them, I think would also let you know the total travel, for those who prefer short travel or long travel pedals).


Thanks Scott. I definitely agree with the usefulness of listing the rotational angle range. Unfortunately this info is not readily available or easy to gather.

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#2881924 - 09/27/17 02:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H.

Grey


That looks to be a sustain pedal.

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#2881926 - 09/27/17 02:19 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
JerryA Online   content
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That chart is so helpful. cool


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#2881931 - 09/27/17 02:54 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: JerryA]
hardware Offline
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Think I owned all of them at one time or another.
Great info there for a sticky IMO.

Bravo
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#2881934 - 09/27/17 03:06 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
DarkyLord Offline
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Thanks guys!

Grey-
Just saw your DS-1H thread from a few days ago. Sorry I missed all the fun but looks like Scott dug up some some really good info.

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#2881939 - 09/27/17 03:27 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
marino Offline
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Very useful. Thanks!! like

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#2881941 - 09/27/17 03:34 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: GRollins
I am still seeking info on the Korg DS-1H.

Grey


That looks to be a sustain pedal.


Silly me...
(...you can't make it a general pedal chart?)

Grey
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#2881966 - 09/27/17 05:42 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
cphollis Offline
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You da man.
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#2881967 - 09/27/17 05:53 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Al Coda Offline
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twothumbs

coolness !

thx

A.C.

P.S.:
According to Markay´s POST the Hammnond EXP-50 is 10K (lin) if true.

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#2881971 - 09/27/17 06:17 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Al Coda]
Phreakay Offline
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The M-Audio wiper wiring is switchable. Maybe it would be easier to categorise the pedals as type 1 or type 2 or both (switchable).

Also regarding throw, there are two criteria, pedal range, possibly group into short (e.g M-Audio), medium or long (e.g. Hammond EXP-50) AND usable throw e.g Boss FV500L - 70%, M-Audio and Hammond - 100%.
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#2881984 - 09/27/17 08:30 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Phreakay]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.
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#2881999 - 09/27/17 10:55 PM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
RudyS Online   content
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Nice work Mark!
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#2882012 - 09/28/17 03:49 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: Al Coda

According to Markay´s POST the Hammnond EXP-50 is 10K (lin) if true.


Got it - thanks!

Originally Posted By: Markay
The M-Audio wiper wiring is switchable. Maybe it would be easier to categorise the pedals as type 1 or type 2 or both (switchable).

Also regarding throw, there are two criteria, pedal range, possibly group into short (e.g M-Audio), medium or long (e.g. Hammond EXP-50) AND usable throw e.g Boss FV500L - 70%, M-Audio and Hammond - 100%.


I like the Type I/II suggestion - great idea. I'll define those up front (i.e I = wiper to tip, II = wiper to ring, I/II = reverse switch/jumper provided). Now I can eliminate the reverse column. Btw I obviously messed up the M-audio -good catch.

Regarding the throw I suggest we include the clear/obvious characteristics in the comments column (FC-7 long throw, EV5, short throw etc.) We might even include "noticeable physical dead region" for the FCV500-L and others without trying to get specific on amounts.


Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.


I'm not sure what this means other then maybe suggesting the Kurzweil (which one?) is expecting a pedal with a 10K pot? If the PC3 variety please see my cryptic note in the table. It appears (based on my testing this week) this will work well with any Type I Pedal independent of pot value.

Thanks all - great inputs!

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#2882022 - 09/28/17 04:34 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Great work! Regarding hosting of the spreadsheet, a publicly shared Google Docs spreadsheet might be an easy way to keep it online and always up to date.
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#2882035 - 09/28/17 05:44 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
Pot value in the Kurzweil CC1 is 10k linear.


I'm not sure what this means other then maybe suggesting the Kurzweil (which one?) is expecting a pedal with a 10K pot?




All pots are not created equal. There are numerous types, but the two most common are log (short for logarithmic) and linear. If you take the resistance of the pot, say 10k, and start twisting the shaft, how much resistance goes by per degree of turn? A linear taper pot will do pretty much what you would expect--if you turn it half way, you'll get half the resistance. 3/4 will increase/decrease (depending on which way you're turning the shaft) the resistance by 3/4. A log taper pot will increase or decrease logarithmically, with most of the resistance occurring in the first or last portion of the turn. This is important for use in places like volume controls, because the human ear responds in a logarithmic fashion. If you use a linear pot for a volume control, you'd get all your volume in the first quarter-turn or so. Yes, people do this. Guitar and bass amps are notorious for using linear pots to control volume because the unwary user turns the knob to, say, 3, covers his ears, and says, "If it's this loud at 3, imagine how loud it will be when I turn it to 10!" not realizing that it's already pretty much maxed out. If you use a log pot, you'll get more-or-less equal numbers of decibels per degree of turn. Stereos generally use log pots in their volume controls--at least the decent ones.

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey
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#2882044 - 09/28/17 06:11 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey


Hi Grey-

Totally agree. The reason I didn't include this is that every expression pedal listed uses a linear pot- period. I haven't found one that didn't. Even the ones that include separate volume I/O use linear pots.

As you indicated volume pedals typically use logarithmic pots - but apparently not the ones that serves as combined expression/volume pedals. I believe this is due to cost and complexities of including 2 separate pots. I also don't believe there are a whole lot of dual- ganged pots where one side is linear and the other log.

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#2882045 - 09/28/17 06:20 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
DarkyLord Offline
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Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Btw - now that we're including some descriptive info on the throw I'm happy to include the DS-1H and the FC3A as these work exactly the same as an expression pedal, albeit with a really short throw. I'll include a comment that these are used for half damper control.

20K pot for the DS-1H?

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#2882052 - 09/28/17 06:39 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
DarkyLord Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mighty Ferguson
Great work! Regarding hosting of the spreadsheet, a publicly shared Google Docs spreadsheet might be an easy way to keep it online and always up to date.


Thanks MF- will further investigate.

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#2882054 - 09/28/17 06:43 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Phreakay Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Regarding the throw I suggest we include the clear/obvious characteristics in the comments column (FC-7 long throw, EV5, short throw etc.) We might even include "noticeable physical dead region" for the FCV500-L and others without trying to get specific on amounts.


Agreed, I hate the thought of having to get a protractor out and accurately measuring throw. Having said that I recently saw a diagram for a pedal that did include a throw angle diagram measured from the 'up' position.

This table is great contribution to the body of knowledge Mark, thanks for taking the time to put it together.

Maybe on a forum the best way to update is to just republish the relevant section as there are updates, similar to the way Vin (Tafkat) over at GS does with the interface latency database.
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#2882055 - 09/28/17 06:44 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Totally agree. The reason I didn't include this is that every expression pedal listed uses a linear pot- period.
...
As you indicated volume pedals typically use logarithmic pots - but apparently not the ones that serves as combined expression/volume pedals.

Very interesting! And while Gray points out the limitations of linear pots, it seems to not really be an issue with expression pedals (at least people don't generally seem to complain about things like uneven response, except when they are using the "wrong" pedal), so I guess the "problem" of linear operation not matching what our ears expect is "solved" by proper interpretation/mapping of the pedal physical locations to the 128 MIDI values.


Originally Posted By: Markyboard
I'm happy to include the DS-1H and the FC3A as these work exactly the same as an expression pedal, albeit with a really short throw.

Yup, and that they spring back. Using a MIDI Solutions box, I once mapped a continuous sustain pedal to pitch bend for that reason. I couldn't spare the hand for pitch bend, and it was sloppy/unnatural to use a traditional expression pedal that had to manually be brought back to true pitch.
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#2882056 - 09/28/17 06:50 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: AnotherScott]
Skinny Offline
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This is very cool, Markyboard. cool like
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#2882059 - 09/28/17 06:51 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Registered: 03/27/08
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I just added the 10 K value for completion of the table (since it doesn't show a value, like the ones in the upper part. This value has been verified by checking - I have four CC1 pedals.
Added only in the interest of helping complete the table.
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#2882060 - 09/28/17 06:57 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
GRollins Offline
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I cannot verify that 20k figure. I read it on the web and I tend to be leery of stuff I see on the web until I figure out how good the source is. There are butt-loads of people out there who think they're "experts," but don't know squat. The site someone linked to in my thread indicated that the pedal had 20k of swept resistance in actual use, but it's only a small amount of the total value of the pot.

The Korg Kronos is supposed to automatically sense when a DS-1H is hooked up, at which point you can undertake some sort of calibration procedure. My homebrew device has yet to trigger the Kronos's automatic recognition. I'm going to try something else as soon as I get time, but I'm tied up doing a bunch of other things. If I had an actual pedal on hand, I'd be happy to test it for you, but I'm trying to save that money for a (possible, maybe, cross fingers) Yamaha rack unit to beef up my MM8. I may not even need the pedal. I've got one place in one song that I want to try it on. If I don't like the result, then it's just going to gather dust, so I'm reluctant to put money into the pedal unless it's going to actually get used, hence my experimentation.

The only non-effects pedal I have on hand is an external switch that goes with the BOSS DD-7. I can't remember what it's called at the moment. If info on that will help, let me know and I'll see what makes it tick. They may be using an FET, rather than just a simple switch, but I don't know that, so don't print it without verification. As far as I know, it doesn't work with anything but BOSS pedals so it may not be of interest.

Grey
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#2882064 - 09/28/17 07:10 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: GRollins]
Phreakay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2630
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: GRollins


All pots are not created equal. There are numerous types, but the two most common are log (short for logarithmic) and linear. If you take the resistance of the pot, say 10k, and start twisting the shaft, how much resistance goes by per degree of turn? A linear taper pot will do pretty much what you would expect--if you turn it half way, you'll get half the resistance. 3/4 will increase/decrease (depending on which way you're turning the shaft) the resistance by 3/4. A log taper pot will increase or decrease logarithmically, with most of the resistance occurring in the first or last portion of the turn. This is important for use in places like volume controls, because the human ear responds in a logarithmic fashion. If you use a linear pot for a volume control, you'd get all your volume in the first quarter-turn or so. Yes, people do this. Guitar and bass amps are notorious for using linear pots to control volume because the unwary user turns the knob to, say, 3, covers his ears, and says, "If it's this loud at 3, imagine how loud it will be when I turn it to 10!" not realizing that it's already pretty much maxed out. If you use a log pot, you'll get more-or-less equal numbers of decibels per degree of turn. Stereos generally use log pots in their volume controls--at least the decent ones.

There are other tapers, but for our needs log and linear will cover 99% of applications. If you have access to that information, please include it. It matters.

Grey


I think it is important to distinguish between the needs of a Guitarist and keyboard player. As Markyboard points out all the pedals that one might use with a keyboard have linear pots.

Few keyboard players are using these pedals to modulate volume into an amp.

More important is their use as a true expression pedal plugged into the expression input of a keyboard to provide swell control forva clonewheel, to fade between layers and splits, modulate other sounds including synths or to vary volume internally between different sounds, e.g. AP and EP.

Where volume modulation of a board's output is required some pedals, like the FV500L, can serve a dual function as an inline Volume pedal.

Hence they are all linear pots. For software users virtually all hosts, DAW's and some VI's provide the functionality to convert the linear input to logarithmic, exponential or to otherwise customise the response curve. VB3 for example provides all three options.

The only value in including pedals with expoential or logarithmic pots would be as a warning to steer clear unless you have a special need for either of these.
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#2882069 - 09/28/17 07:21 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
DarkyLord Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5008
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: MoodyBluesKeys
I just added the 10 K value for completion of the table (since it doesn't show a value, like the ones in the upper part. This value has been verified by checking - I have four CC1 pedals.
Added only in the interest of helping complete the table.


Doh! facepalm
Until now I was unaware of (or totally forgot) this pedal. Will definitely include in table.

Thanks!

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#2882072 - 09/28/17 07:43 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Delaware Dave Offline
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#2882079 - 09/28/17 07:59 AM Re: Expression Pedal Summary [Re: DarkyLord]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
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Originally Posted By: Markyboard

Doh! facepalm
Until now I was unaware of (or totally forgot) this pedal. Will definitely include in table.

Thanks!


Just a note ...
I tried downloading your pics of the table in 1st post and open in Windows which unfortunately doesn´t work.
I was about creating an editable document in Open Office to make a PDF later.
It would be great to have a Open Office-Calc (or Excel) chart to make PDF updates.

smile

A.C.

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