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#2879210 - 09/14/17 11:29 AM GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo
Lou_NC Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/17
Posts: 10
Folks,
I'm new to this forum but have been playing clonewheels for 30 years, starting with an analog Korg BX-3 back in 1985. I play mostly for my own pleasure, but have also started playing in my church recently. I learned on a Wurlitzer spinet, so I generally play two manuals plus spinet bass pedals.

I don't own my BX-3 any longer, I'm playing an XK-3 with Ventilator these days. I'm looking for ways to get to a decent dual-manual setup again. I'm not crazy about the XLK/XK-3 combination because it's bulky and heavy, and I need to move my keyboard to and from my home and church every week.

I'm looking at a GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander that just came up for sale on a local Craigslist post. I've been considering the Mojo or Mojo 61 + a light weight 61-key MIDI controller for a lower keyboard as an upgrade from my XK-3/Vent.

What is the thinking about the GSi/Gemini combo vs. the dual-manual Mojo? I believe they have the identical sound engine. I'm not really very interested in exploiting the GSi controller as a MIDI controller, since I'm primarily an organ guy. But, if the GSi/Gemini gives me the same function as a Mojo, I might go ahead and buy it.

My basic concern is whether there any downside to the GSi/Gemini when compared to the Mojo? One thing that comes immediately to mind is that the controls on the GSi aren't labeled as they are on a Mojo. I'm sure I can get accustomed to what button does what, and I can even put labels on the GSi if I need to. But if it's going to be more complicated than I'll ever need to deal with the GSi, then maybe I should just ignore the local sale and re-set my sights on the Mojo or Mojo 61.

Thanks,
Lou

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#2879236 - 09/14/17 12:39 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Lou_NC]
ABECK Offline
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Other than the layout (labels and wood sides), the action is different on the Mojo. I haven't played the current setup for the Mojo, but the reviews seems to be very favorable for dedicated Hammond players.
The DMC-122 has the pretty standard Fatar action that a lot of other boards use.
The software for Gemini and DMC has the potential to be complicated, or, you could just run the default VB3 setup and be done with it. So, very flexible. It's probably worth checking out.

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#2879237 - 09/14/17 12:39 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Lou_NC]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
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Welcome.

Couple things.

This topic has been discussed plenty already. See the sticky thread about searching for info on this forum before you search blindly.
The Hammond lower manual for the XK3 I'm fairly certain has been discontinued. I sold mine to a fellow forum member earlier this year because he believed this to be true and he needed it more than I did.
(I took those funds and added some more and bought a used Mojo)
There is now a lower manual for the Mojo 61.
If you are used to your Vent and love it you might want to hang on to it, there are forum members who run their Mojo through a Vent. (I don't)
In any case you will get a fine sounding clonewheel no matter which of the 3 you choose.
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#2879247 - 09/14/17 01:01 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Lou_NC]
DaveMcM Offline
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Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: Cincy, OH, USA
If the price for the DMC-122/Gemini is attractive compared to that of a Mojo, I would go for it. The organ sound and functionality is the same. True the DMC labeling is not organ specific, but the button layout is exactly the same and it won't take long to remember which button does what.

There are some specific differences to consider:

First, the keybed on the Mojo has a lighter touch than the DMC. That being said, I have no complaints with the action of my DMC-122. It feels very similar to the XK-3 actually.

Second, the looks. The Mojo is more traditional looking with its wooden ends and black faceplate while the DMC has a contemporary look. I really like the looks of the Mojo, but to me the advantages of the DMC-122/Gemini outweigh the aesthetics.

Which brings us to the third difference. The Gemini does WAY more than just organ. If all you want is organ, it can work that way. Turn it on and it's ready to go. But, if you ever have a need or desire to utilize other sounds, i.e. pianos, clavinet, brass, orchestral, analog synth, etc. you're set. It is quite easy to use the PC based editor for creating new setups in the DMC and the Gemini editor is equally simple by using an iOS or Android device.

You mentioned that you had the XK3 and lower manual. I sold those off to get the DMC-122/Gemini. It is such a please to lift one relatively light dual manual keyboard out of its case, set it on a stand and its ready to go. Load in and setup time is a bit faster now.


Edited by DaveMcM (09/14/17 01:19 PM)
Edit Reason: added comment
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#2879388 - 09/15/17 06:17 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: DaveMcM]
Lou_NC Offline
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Registered: 07/19/17
Posts: 10
Folks, thanks for the valuable input! I'm still chewing on this.

I called the guy listing the DMC-122/Gemini on Craigslist yesterday and spoke for a while. It was interesting......I mentioned that his pricing seemed a little low, and I wanted to confirm that the unit was fully functional and as-advertised. He soon started asking me "well how much higher should it be"? I wasn't ready to commit to purchase, so I chatted for a while longer without committing to a higher price, but I was getting the idea that his Craigslist price was rapidly turning into a "bait and switch". I couldn't tell whether he was a really shrewd operator, or an honest guy....still unsure. It's about an hour's drive so I have to decide whether I want to possibly waste a half day on this guy.

I need to sleep on the decision a couple more days. Every time I play my XK-3 I ask myself whether I REALLY need to spend the $$ on a dual keyboard clone. No question it's what I'd prefer if I were starting over, but as with everything else in life, it's a tradeoff.

Thanks again for the info!

Lou

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#2879415 - 09/15/17 08:10 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Lou_NC]
HammondDave Offline
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Registered: 01/20/08
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I tried both extensively and even a/b'ed them side by side. The Mojo has a far superior Keyboard (for Hammond players like me). Yes, the DMC can play other sounds, but so can I when I USB my iPad running Korg Module into the Mojo. Finally, the end blocks trim on the DMC allows you to easily lift the board onto the stand, but could be damaged if you do not use the correct case. Be careful of these.
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#2879447 - 09/15/17 10:02 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: HammondDave]
sosho Offline
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Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 97
Loc: germany
I recently tried a mojo against a c2d and viscount in a store. The actions were different but not so much IMHO . The standard fatar gets lighter over time , I would not want my electro keybed any lighter . But I am not a good organ player.
What would be a good way to transport a DMC ( except a custom built case )? does the mojo bag fit ? The nord c2 seems to be similar size .thank you

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#2879483 - 09/15/17 12:43 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: sosho]
DaveMcM Offline
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Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: Cincy, OH, USA
I have the hard shell case that GSi offers for my DMC-122. It works great. The wood side panels do make great handles when removing it from the case and for placing it on a stand. I would be weary of a soft gig bag for any keyboard really. Not only the side panels, whether wooden or plastic, but also the knobs and sliders of the control panel are at risk.

As for the keyboard feel, I have not played the Mojo keybed but from the comments it sounds like has a fairly light touch kind of like my Roland VR-760. I took the VR out the other night for a quick in/out gig and didn't enjoy the light touch. It all depends on what you get used to I suppose. To reiterate, if all you want is organ, and you like the feel of a worn-in Hammond, then the Mojo is a good choice. But if the price of the DMC-122/Gemini is that good (and legit) I personally wouldn't let the keyboard feel steer me away. As I said earlier, the DMC keybed feels a lot like the XK3.
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#2879498 - 09/15/17 01:37 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: DaveMcM]
sosho Offline
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Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 97
Loc: germany
Hard shell case from the manufacturer is not offered anymore.would be too heavy , anyway


Edited by sosho (09/15/17 01:38 PM)

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#2879529 - 09/15/17 04:38 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: sosho]
DaveMcM Offline
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Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: Cincy, OH, USA
Sorry. I wasn't aware of that.
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#2879577 - 09/15/17 08:56 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: DaveMcM]
t9cstudio Offline
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Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 257
Loc: TX
I got a custom made hard shell case, like the stuff that drum cases are made of, only nicer from Road Cases USA for $139. I should have got the optional wheels, though. Not a flight or shipping case by any means, but perfect for the occasional gig.
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#2937245 - 07/11/18 02:30 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: t9cstudio]
BachStudentMCS Offline
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Registered: 07/10/18
Posts: 7
Loc: AZ
I'm rebuilding my old 1960 vintage Rodgers theater organ with 32 pedals that I MIDI-ized about 31 years ago because rats ate out most of the wiring and did nasty unspeakable things all over it while it was in storage for a while. I'm gutting it all out and think that the DMC-122 will work well to replace the original organ dual manuals. I originally added a lower 3rd keyboard using an Ensoniq VFX SD when it came out a long time ago. How does the DMC-122 key action feel compared to the Ensoniq VFX SD and Ensoniq TS10 (which I also have and I think they are semi-weighted)? Does it feel like a traditional pipe organ tracker-touch keyboard? Is it feasible to use the Hauptwerk system with the DMC-122 or is it unnecessary because the DMC-122 sounds are sufficient? Can I hook up and use other synthesizers to the DMC-122 to use other sounds (I would expect so)? I've been looking for DMC-122 dimension specs to get a better idea of how to fit it into the remains of my original organ and how closely it fits the AGO (American Guild of Organists) dimensional standards, but haven't found anything on this - are there any dimensional specs? Is it feasible to add thumb piston presets to the front moldings under the keys (like traditional classical organs)? In the photos it looks like the front molding facade protrudes in front of the keys instead of the keys hanging over the front facing moldings. I'm a Bach organist type and like to synth up the Bach organ works, so I'm looking to make it very similar to a pipe organ feel with classical pipe organ sounds. To bad the DMC-122 is only channel after touch, I heavily use polyphonic after touch on my Ensoniq keyboards. Thanks for all of your help and advice!


Edited by BachStudentMCS (07/11/18 02:33 AM)
Edit Reason: Fixed DMC
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#2937267 - 07/11/18 05:12 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: BachStudentMCS]
Al Quinn Offline
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Registered: 08/13/14
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Loc: Center Moriches, NY
I was faced with the same decision a couple of years ago and choose the Mojo because of the action. FWIW, I'm very happy with the decision I made. The Mojo action is excellent!
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#2937315 - 07/11/18 08:48 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Al Quinn]
jeffinpghpa Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 485
Loc: Charlotte, NC
I looked VERY closely at the DMC-122 and Gemini, talked to several users here, spent time on the Facebook forum and considered it very carefully. I bought the Viscount Legend Live and use iPad based tones for extra sounds. The Gemini sounds great, although, like the Crumar Seven, acoustic piano is not a strong point. It's worth noting that the DMC-122 and Gemini are separate components and that you have to mentally think that it's both a MIDI controller and a module that need to be integrated together. Some of the implementation of these are not always seamless.

The Gemini sounds great for rhodes, wurlitzer, clav and a nice VA.

If Crumar/GSI ever delivers their realization of a dual manual Mojo interface and keybed with a Gemini architecture and the sounds of the Gemini in a single seamless instrument, I would buy that. Until then... I wait.
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#2937319 - 07/11/18 08:57 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: jeffinpghpa]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 306
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: jeffinpghpa
...It's worth noting that the DMC-122 and Gemini are separate components and that you have to mentally think that it's both a MIDI controller and a module that need to be integrated together. Some of the implementation of these are not always seamless.

....snip.....

If Crumar/GSI ever delivers their realization of a dual manual Mojo interface and keybed with a Gemini architecture and the sounds of the Gemini in a single seamless instrument, I would buy that. Until then... I wait.


I think the end result you get is fairly seamless, but getting there definitely isn't. It's a bit of a pain to mix a PC/Mac app for editing the DMC-122 and a web browser for the Gemini. I agree, if they deliver an updated Mojo with the Gemini DSP architecture and sounds, I'd get it. I could have sworn Guido said this was coming in late 2018 several months ago, but his recent comments on Facebook at the time of the enhanced Mojo coming out make it sound like it will be further in the future.
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#2937343 - 07/11/18 09:58 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
Delaware Dave Offline
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The Mojo itself is mono-timbral while the Gemini is bi-timbral. Also, playing pianos on 61 keys is too restrictive. Anxiously awaiting the 76 key DMC (SMC) with the Gemini. The Electro killer.
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#2937350 - 07/11/18 10:33 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Delaware Dave]
ABECK Offline
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Does it still count as bi-timbral if you can't layer those voice? I always thought of it as Dual Mono Timbral. If that is even a thing...lol

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#2937361 - 07/11/18 11:13 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: ABECK]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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You can layer them depending on your controller I guess - if it can transmit on two channels at once, you should be good to go.
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#2937368 - 07/11/18 11:49 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Mighty Ferguson]
Adan Offline
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I recently got to play someone's well-broken-in Viscount Legend. The action was maybe slightly stiffer than my Mojo 61, but the difference was very minor and should be an easy adjustment. I wouldn't make a choice based on the action. If you get something with the standard Fatar action (as opposed to the modified Mojo 61), just play it until it breaks in.
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#2937394 - 07/11/18 01:50 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Adan]
BachStudentMCS Offline
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Registered: 07/10/18
Posts: 7
Loc: AZ
Thank you all for your replies so quickly! Maybe I'm in the wrong forum, I really don't know what I'm talking about with the dual keyboard products available. The DMC-122 grabbed my attention because it looks like it is a turn-key solution to getting a good MIDI dual manual to pop into my old organ console-table when I rip out all the old stuff - and I can get it for $1400. Then I can save time and spend it on integrating the AGO 32 pedal keyboard, MIDI crescendo and swell pedals, and thumb and toe programmable (patch) preset studs/pistons to emulate a classical console. Am I on the right track or should I be looking at something other than the DMC-122?
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#2937403 - 07/11/18 02:45 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: BachStudentMCS]
BachStudentMCS Offline
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Registered: 07/10/18
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Loc: AZ
Also I don't know the difference between Crumar and non-Crumar DMC-122 units. Are they the same thing?
Thanks.
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#2937404 - 07/11/18 03:07 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: BachStudentMCS]
davedoerfler Offline
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Crumar and GSI are sister companies run by the same 2 people in Italy. The Mojo is branded under Crumar, while the DMC-122 is branded under GSI. You can check it out for yourself on their web page.

http://www.crumar.it/?a=products
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#2937432 - 07/11/18 06:50 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: ABECK]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: ABECK
Does it still count as bi-timbral if you can't layer those voice? I always thought of it as Dual Mono Timbral. If that is even a thing...lol
As Mighty Ferguson indicated it's the controller that ultimately allows this. I can put a piano on one channel and strings on another channel then use the controller to determine the layering, overlapping or whatever the choice is and even determine the individual volume levels.
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#2937508 - 07/12/18 07:01 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: BachStudentMCS]
Mighty Ferguson Offline
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Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 306
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: BachStudentMCS
The DMC-122 grabbed my attention because it looks like it is a turn-key solution to getting a good MIDI dual manual...

This feels like a bit of a stretch, but the organ at least is pretty good to go out of the box with a Gemini module. The good thing at least is that if you're not planning on changing much of it all the time, once it's set up you're all set.
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#2937618 - 07/12/18 01:46 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: Delaware Dave]
ABECK Offline
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Registered: 01/22/01
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
Originally Posted By: ABECK
Does it still count as bi-timbral if you can't layer those voice? I always thought of it as Dual Mono Timbral. If that is even a thing...lol
As Mighty Ferguson indicated it's the controller that ultimately allows this. I can put a piano on one channel and strings on another channel then use the controller to determine the layering, overlapping or whatever the choice is and even determine the individual volume levels.


Good point. I did try to map both engines of the internal Gemini to one manual on the DMC, but was not successful. I figured I could find a way to layer them, but because it's on an internal MIDI port, rather than a true external MIDI module, I think there's a limitation there.

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#2937644 - 07/12/18 05:40 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: ABECK]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Good point, the example I used was an external controller connected to a table top Gemini. The DMC with an internal midi Gemini connection might limit its flexibility.
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#2937685 - 07/13/18 01:59 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: BachStudentMCS]
AD1969 Offline
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Posts: 11
BachStudent, Iím finding it hard to imagine how a DMC would fit into a classical console - wouldnít the controls be obscured? I use a DMC 122 with a Viscount midi pedalboard and Hauptwerk for classical practice (I work as church organist) using stands from Hoffrichter. I went with this set-up as itís modular, so easy to move, and I could upgrade to a midi organ stack if I wanted to, and not have to replace the whole thing. Itís fine for note-learning, and I like itís flexibility ( I use it for Hammond, EP, and synth as well), so for me it ticked a lot of boxes, but it is a compromise - I couldnít close my eyes and think I was playing the real thing.

For what youíre wanting to do, Iíd do a search on Hauptwerk builds, and see what it throws up. I think M Audio Keystations used to be used a fair bit.

Bear in mind that the DMC is a controller only, so no sounds! For sounds, youíd have to buy the Gemini expander as well, though personally I wouldnít do that just for itís pipe organ - especially when you can use Hauptwerk free!

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#2937711 - 07/13/18 07:14 AM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: ABECK]
DaveMcM Offline
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Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 1478
Loc: Cincy, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: ABECK
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
Originally Posted By: ABECK
Does it still count as bi-timbral if you can't layer those voice? I always thought of it as Dual Mono Timbral. If that is even a thing...lol
As Mighty Ferguson indicated it's the controller that ultimately allows this. I can put a piano on one channel and strings on another channel then use the controller to determine the layering, overlapping or whatever the choice is and even determine the individual volume levels.


Good point. I did try to map both engines of the internal Gemini to one manual on the DMC, but was not successful. I figured I could find a way to layer them, but because it's on an internal MIDI port, rather than a true external MIDI module, I think there's a limitation there.


Years ago I remember getting around a similar issue with another keyboard by connecting a short MIDI cable between the MIDI IN & OUT jacks. Just be sure you set MIDI routines properly before connecting the cable. The DMC can transmit on two channels for each manual and the Gemini receives on two channels so this may solve the issue.
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#2937818 - 07/13/18 05:45 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: DaveMcM]
BachStudentMCS Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/18
Posts: 7
Loc: AZ
Thanks for your reply, AD1969! I did not realize that the DMC-122 didn't have any native sounds on it, which changed my whole perspective. I'm able to get a DMC-122 with the Gemini addition or the new Crumar Mojo XT loaded for about the same price. So now I'm looking for input on which of the 2 dual MIDI keyboard systems I should take a chance on buying since nobody near me in Tucson that I know of has any of these loaded dual MIDI keyboard systems. I'm planning on acquiring some level of Hauptwerk anyway, but I want to be able to synth things up. I finished gutting the old Rodgers organ console & now have plenty of table top & head room to accommodate 4 manuals/keyboards. What does anybody recommend or prefer?
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#2937822 - 07/13/18 07:45 PM Re: GSi DMC-122 + Gemini Expander vs. Crumar Mojo [Re: BachStudentMCS]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 3090
Loc: Take a guess ....
The gemini module itself has a couple of dozen instruments,all of exceptional quality. Have you listened to them?

http://www.gsidsp.com
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