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#2878851 - 09/13/17 09:00 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: Joe Muscara]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 2949
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Vent + Leslie - this is indeed a good combination. I have been using that lately (ssh, don't tell the bandmates or audience!). It saves me a channel on the mixer, and makes it a lot easier to get a clean signal when the Leslie is 18" from the high hat.

Wes
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Hammond: Split L111, '58 M3, '59 B3, Northern DV
Leslie: 760, 51C, 147, 145
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2878856 - 09/13/17 09:18 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: WesG]
Outkaster Offline
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Registered: 02/25/06
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Loc: Rochester, NY
I have a Trek UC1A and I think it's a great idea. They are not cheap but they make really good products.
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#2878862 - 09/13/17 09:39 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: Outkaster]
WesG Offline
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Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 2949
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
I've been thinking about this and...I'd like to see anybody play "Fly Like An Eagle" on a clone. I just don't think any of them have good enough key contacts.


Edited by WesG (09/13/17 09:39 AM)
_________________________
Hammond: Split L111, '58 M3, '59 B3, Northern DV
Leslie: 760, 51C, 147, 145
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2878869 - 09/13/17 10:01 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: Aperkeys]
Steve Nathan Offline
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Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 2952
Loc: Nashville, TN
I'm going to tiptoe back into this because I fear it may turn into another "which is better" thread. My point above was not that only the real thing will do. I often play fakes, and they often work perfectly for the song I'm recording.
My point was that sometimes it matters, and a good engineer knows it. A good engineer, like a good studio musician knows the difference immediately, instinctively.
So love your clone/vent and enjoy playing it. Most of the time the notes chosen are the most significant factor, not the instrument. But if you plan to record Whiter Shade, Hush, Chest Fever, Green Onions, Love & Happiness, Gimme some Lovin' etc., you'd better crank up some tonewheels (with a T) laugh
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#2878872 - 09/13/17 10:07 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: Steve Nathan]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 3193
Loc: Victoria, BC Canada
twothumbs

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#2878882 - 09/13/17 10:36 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: drawback]
El Lobo Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 12/23/14
Posts: 668
Whenever I hear old Jimmy Smith recordings, I'm in awe at the sound of the organ. I'm sure the recording environments were never ideal, especially the live recordings, but that sound comes through regardless. I've never heard a clone come close to that recorded sound. I have an NE5 with drawbars, a vent I don't use, etc. There's just something in the way a real Hammond and Leslie sounds, even in a mediocre recording, that can never be duplicated by a clone, even in a high-end studio recording with expert engineers. I always go back to Jimmy Smith. Something about the combination of him and the instrument is not reproducible.
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#2879006 - 09/13/17 08:24 PM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: El Lobo]
DenCV Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 223
I'm a studio owner and an organ player. I have three real tonewheel hammonds in the studio, along with two leslies. I also have a few clones,and a vent. Usually I don't argue with the clients, if they want to bring their own keys in, fine, it actually makes it easier for me. If they want to use my vintage stuff, they're more than welcome.I've had an equal number go both ways. But maybe 3 years ago now the blues band I play with decided to do a cd. I was engineering it and playing on it at the same time to save us some money, so I used my live setup which is clone/vent. I knew I could go back and rerecord the organ parts no sweat and keep the live energy later. Most of the tracks I did do that. But there were a few where either my solo's, or the band energy was such that I made the difficult decision to go with the energy rather than the sound. To this day everytime I listen to that CD the fake ones stand out to me. I don't regret going the way I did, it would have been impossible to use the real ones and still engineer/see the rest of the band. But there's a world of difference to my ears. SO my conclusions are any time I can use the real things (including real leslie) I do because there is something about it that I have yet to approach with clone/vent. But if I can't, then I do the best with what I have, and chances are very few will notice it when it's all done.
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#2879050 - 09/14/17 03:06 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: Joe Muscara]
elsongs Offline
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Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 239
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, USA
I guess it depends on the situation and context. If the organ is just a background instrument in a rock setting, I'm sure a VST would do just fine if the general sound is captured. But for something more prominent, say, in a jazz organ trio setting, it might be best to have The Real Enchilada mic'ed up.

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#2879303 - 09/14/17 05:26 PM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: mate stubb]
mate stubb Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb
Originally Posted By: Dnsmo
Originally Posted By: mate stubb
I ran home and dragged this shorty 145 over with a Leslie preamp and it blew the 122 away.
Moe, are you referring to your AMA as the "Leslie preamp" you used with the 145? I ask because I'm thinking about the same pairing -- Mojo (Gemini actually) and 145 -- for a studio project.


No, just an old school Leslie brand preamp.



And here's the business end. I've been recording most of this week and have a big smile on my face.

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Moe
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Jazzooo: "Yes, there is an appeal to having your entire catalog on a few little pieces of dark plastic that are easily lost under the seat."

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#2879321 - 09/14/17 07:45 PM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: mate stubb]
OB Dave Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/25/09
Posts: 847
Loc: San Diego CA, US
I've always found that socks really bring out the warmth in a 145.

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#2879324 - 09/14/17 07:53 PM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: OB Dave]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 6152
Loc: thin ice
was thinking the same thing when I saw you post, OB Dave. laugh

In all seriousness, my first ever amp of any kind was a Leslie 145 with a Leslie Pre Amp, was given to me by my dad when I was 15 years old. I will always have a soft spot for one. cool
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'88 Kawai 52" Upright,'61 Hammond A100,'81 Rhodes 88 Mark II Stage,'71 Wurlitzer 200, Clavinet E7, Moog Voyager, Leslies 142/Studio 12, Yamaha CP70, DSI Prophet 08, Arp Solina, Yamaha CP4, Crumar Mojo

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#2879327 - 09/14/17 08:02 PM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: OB Dave]
mate stubb Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
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Originally Posted By: OB Dave
I've always found that socks really bring out the warmth in a 145.


Those aren't socks, they are precision mic dust covers. wink
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Moe
---
Jazzooo: "Yes, there is an appeal to having your entire catalog on a few little pieces of dark plastic that are easily lost under the seat."

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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#2879356 - 09/15/17 12:26 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: bourniplus]
Jim Alfredson Online   content
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Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 5579
Loc: Lansing, MI
Originally Posted By: bourniplus
If someone told me that "the real thing won't bring a "special frequency" to the mix", I'd sit with them and listen to Santana's Evil ways, or Jimmy Mcgriff's All about my girl, and ask them to tell me that a clone and Vent (or even with a Leslie) can get THAT sound.


This is truth.

It totally depends on the context. If you're going after the classic jazz organ sound, you're going to be hard-pressed to get that out of almost any clone. Oh sure, it will sound fine. But it won't have the magic of the real deal. I've done an entire studio album on my Hammond XK3 through a vintage Leslie 122 (organissimo's Groovadelphia) and it sounds fine; it even fooled a couple reviewers. But the real deal in that kind of exposed setting is inimitable.

I've done albums with just about everything, though. VB3 direct to the board. SK1 through a Ventilator. XK3 through a Leslie as mentioned above. XK1c straight into the board. XK3 through a Lounsberry Organ Grinder pedal into a Vent. And even XK1c with the digital Leslie bypassed and a chorus / phaser duo to get that Tony Banks, late-70s vibe. It completely depends on what you're going for.

In regards to digital pianos, I've done pretty much everything there, too. But one thing I lament is that so many modern piano sounds I hear on albums sound the same. Super clean, super in tune, super precise. Sometimes a little funkiness, a little imperfect unison here and there is a good thing. It gives the recording some character. And as a piano tuner, I appreciate studios that have real pianos. smile

But whatever works. As long as the music is happening, the source is inconsequential. If it sounds good, it is good.
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#2879431 - 09/15/17 09:11 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: Jim Alfredson]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 6152
Loc: thin ice
nice post, JA. Been awhile.
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'88 Kawai 52" Upright,'61 Hammond A100,'81 Rhodes 88 Mark II Stage,'71 Wurlitzer 200, Clavinet E7, Moog Voyager, Leslies 142/Studio 12, Yamaha CP70, DSI Prophet 08, Arp Solina, Yamaha CP4, Crumar Mojo

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#2879470 - 09/15/17 11:57 AM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: Joe Muscara]
JoJoB3 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/04/13
Posts: 265
Nobody's fooling anyone with a clone/leslie sim when it comes to Hammond based music and recording. Real deal in studio - every time. But, when it comes to those other gigs the real deal can't go, or experimentation in sound/style, I'm having a blast with my franken-clone.

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#2879486 - 09/15/17 12:54 PM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: JoJoB3]
WesG Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/16/13
Posts: 2949
Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Moe, I'm surprised you don't point your MD421 more to the right; do you just low-pass the relay click out? SSR?
_________________________
Hammond: Split L111, '58 M3, '59 B3, Northern DV
Leslie: 760, 51C, 147, 145
Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85
Roland: VR-09
Band Site: http://DrBombay.ca/

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#2879491 - 09/15/17 01:19 PM Re: Do we really need to record a "real" Hammond in the studio? [Re: WesG]
mate stubb Offline
Grand Poobah of the Trebuchet
10k Club

Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 15214
Originally Posted By: WesG
Moe, I'm surprised you don't point your MD421 more to the right; do you just low-pass the relay click out? SSR?


Nothing fancy like a trick relay. For some reason, the relay on this box is quiet to begin with. The mic is not picking anything up but speaker (and wind noise of course.)
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Moe
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Jazzooo: "Yes, there is an appeal to having your entire catalog on a few little pieces of dark plastic that are easily lost under the seat."

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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