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#2874113 - 08/20/17 09:44 PM Modern Pop Music Sucks!
Delta Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 239
Loc: Ormond Beach, FL
I've tried to stay away from it because I know it sucks, but due to certain circumstances I've been a victim of it off and on for the last 2 weeks. Absolute crap! Robotic, mindless drivel that young people are absorbing into their minds. Very sad. And don't try to justify it or I'll kick your ass!



Edited by Delta (08/20/17 09:45 PM)
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#2874121 - 08/20/17 10:38 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Delta]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Delta, Delta, Delta, somehow you have to put yourself to sleep tonight and when you wake up in the morning, pour yourself a large cup of strong black coffee, laced with a double shot of brandy or whiskey, 1 or 2 teaspoons of sugar, and some whipped cream...then turn on something soft like The Doors...kick back in a nice warm robe...and forget about it. Two weeks exposure to that kind of crap can really do a number on just about anyone...the only thing worse is New Country LOL! If I didn't have to drive to the Doctor's tomorrow, I would be joining you! coffee
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#2874131 - 08/21/17 01:11 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5229
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Well, first of all, may I remind you of Theodore Sturgeon's Law/Revelation. As he put it in an interview:
Quote:

I repeat Sturgeon's Revelation, which was wrung out of me after twenty years of wearying defense of science fiction against attacks of people who used the worst examples of the field for ammunition, and whose conclusion was that ninety percent of SF is crud. Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. is crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms.


Or as he later distilled it: "90% of everything is crap."*

Sooo...what do you consider "pop" music? How broadly do you define it? Perhaps we can find you something from the 10%.



* as seen in my sig, below.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/21/17 01:12 AM)
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#2874133 - 08/21/17 01:43 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
The Geoff Offline
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Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 8837
Loc: Near Glasgow
I've been saying that since 1964.....


smile

G.
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#2874137 - 08/21/17 04:11 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Delta]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: Delta
I've tried to stay away from it because I know it sucks, but due to certain circumstances I've been a victim of it off and on for the last 2 weeks. Absolute crap! Robotic, mindless drivel that young people are absorbing into their minds. Very sad. And don't try to justify it or I'll kick your ass!



grin
Just watch out that the "mindless drivel" doesn't numb their brains to where they won't realize they're ON YOUR LAWN! mad

NOW you gotta go CHASE THEM OFF! grin

Hey, look. I'm with ya on this, but EVERY generation had derogatory comments about the next generation's music. Me and my Mom used to get into "mock" arguments about it. I've told all this before in this forum a couple/few times. She'd go on about how MY generations music didn't have as good of LYRICS as songs did in HER day, and I'd come back with, "You mean like, "MARZEY DOATS" or "Hut-Sut Rawlson onna rillerah and a brawla-brawla soo-it"? grin

And there's always the hope that it'll follow it's long cyclical pattern and revolve into something worthwhile to ya in a few short years. I mean, if I could make it through the '80's with it's MYV video driven tripe, I think I still have enough patience to withstand what's going on now. wink

Plus I'm well stocked with recordings of what I DO like that what's going down today won't affect me.
Whitefang
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#2874149 - 08/21/17 05:16 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Delta]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 8009
Loc: Japan
I won`t try and justify it-leaving aside that you would have a long plane ride to collect on that asskicking grin
I`ve had to wade through it for the last few years, to pick out the few good ones that I want to do live. Most of it is basically filler, some of it is worse than that-I mean, if I was stranded on an island and I could only get that on the radio, I would prefer the ocean and hope for a few birds who can harmonize. But the few gems are there, pretty much the same pattern as when music was good-whenever that was.
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#2874154 - 08/21/17 06:00 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
Fred_C Offline
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Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2037
Loc: PA
I have no idea what "modern pop music sounds like.

I listen to the great Jazz vocalists (Nancy Wilson, Ella Fitzgerald, Dinah Washington, Diana Krall, Eliane Elias (the wonderful Brazilian Bossa Nova singer and pianist), Sinatra, Tony Bennet, et. al.) on my home system and in my car.

If I want to listen to something other than Jazz, I listen to Skynyrd, Bad Company, etc. or the great Blues players.

Pop music be damned.
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#2874206 - 08/21/17 08:16 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Fred_C]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Now, THAT'S the way to go! like
Whitefang
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#2874218 - 08/21/17 09:46 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4995
Loc: Los Angeles
There is so much really good music available (mostly in other genres & eras,) that I don't have time to listen to that vast majority of pop which is complete crap.
I do strongly believe, on a qualitative level, not just the "Things-were-better-when-I-was-young" level, that popular music of my youth was in fact much better music than that being produced today. And I would also say that a whole lot of 60's pop was garbage. But amongst the dreck were a bunch of inventive melodic songwriters who have no modern day equivalent.
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#2874222 - 08/21/17 10:17 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz

Or as he later distilled it: "90% of everything is crap."*

Sooo...what do you consider "pop" music? How broadly do you define it? Perhaps we can find you something from the 10%.

* as seen in my sig, below.


I went on YouTube and called up the top 200 pop songs for 2017 just to see what Delta was referring to as I don't listen to it anymore...10% of it being good would be very generous IMHO... cool
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#2874279 - 08/21/17 02:43 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I can go along with Scott inasmuch as every decade's and generation's music was peppered with some crap mixed among the gems. For all the great "Britisn Invasion" groups, there were a few COWSILLS and 1910 Fruit Gum Co. to answer.

But all that regardless, was NOT the greater majority of the music being produced and marketed in those times.

LARRY---You have more courage than I, M'man! wink
Whitefang
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#2874314 - 08/21/17 05:04 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Fred_C]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4375
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
I have no idea what "modern pop music sounds like.


Me neither, I don't listen to the radio except for in the car, and I put on oldies 60's music stations for that.

I do know when I hear new pop it sounds canned from a producer with a composition program, some samples and MIDI, stick a mike in front of the "vocal artist" auto tune the track and ship it. 5 hours in the producers home studio per tune, and done, and hire the dump truck to take the cash to the bank. (That's my guess anyways)

rawk
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#2874321 - 08/21/17 05:35 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: desertbluesman]
Delta Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 239
Loc: Ormond Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: desertbluesman
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
I have no idea what "modern pop music sounds like.


Me neither, I don't listen to the radio except for in the car, and I put on oldies 60's music stations for that.

I do know when I hear new pop it sounds canned from a producer with a composition program, some samples and MIDI, stick a mike in front of the "vocal artist" auto tune the track and ship it. 5 hours in the producers home studio per tune, and done, and hire the dump truck to take the cash to the bank. (That's my guess anyways)

rawk


Well said. Exactly my thoughts as I was listening to this crap. It's over now (hopefully forever). Back to the music I love. I'll mention this. During this period of musical nausea I witnessed a couple of DJs at a restaurant during their shift change. The first was pure formula. The guy that took over started playing Steely Dan's Kid Charlemagne but after about a minute he dived back into the formula. That was sacrilege to me. He continued the modern stuff with minute long classic rock bridges in between. A little creativity there I suppose, but it only pissed me off. Thankfully we were gone after about 30 minutes of that nonsense.
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#2874354 - 08/22/17 12:14 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Delta]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 8009
Loc: Japan
It pisses me off too, but that`s the new normal and has been for a while. A bunch of years ago I was at a party with some people who had come to Japan on the same program as myself. Most of them were a few years younger than me. One of them was channel surfing through music in a way that was getting on my nerves, playing less than a minute of each song and then flipping to something else. Finally he said, "Any requests?" I said, "Yeah, find something and play it." Everybody gave me that "You are not of this Earth" look.


Edited by skipclone 1 (08/22/17 12:23 AM)
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#2874363 - 08/22/17 04:26 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
"Channel surfing" through music on WHAT?

An actual RADIO? Or his "smartphone"?

Nothing saddens me more than seeing a kid put some "music" on his thin, handheld "device" and bobbing his head as if he's listening to something "good" with such tinny, highly distorted sound. And I see that scenario played out everywhere. So, what does it matter? Even IF the "music" WAS any good, they'd never know it because they aren't actually HEARING it. frown
Whitefang
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#2874373 - 08/22/17 06:09 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Fred_C Offline
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Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2037
Loc: PA
The sound quality of a smartphone through headphones or a "Bluetooth" speaker is actually quite good.

The mini (1/8' jack) on my computer is broken (the nice folks at Geek Squad told me that I should buy a new computer!) and therefore I can't use stereo computer speakers (which are also musically satisfying). I purchased a Bluetooth speaker for $60 and a pair of Bluetooth headphones for $50 and the problem is solved. I only use them in my bedroom late at night or early in the morning when I want quiet music. Both YouTube and Pandora sound very good through a Bluetooth device and even better through a pair of good quality computer speakers.

Your post serves to illustrate and underscore your ongoing irrational prejudice regarding smartphones and their owners.



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#2874394 - 08/22/17 07:46 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Fred_C]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
But you see, that's not what I'm SEEING. I notice just holding the phone out (like a waiter might hold a tray) and NOT using any earphones, "buds" or any bluetooth attachments.

While I'll concede those items might increase the sound qality somewhat, I don't think they'll ever outdo my Nakamichi Stasis TA-4A and Miller & Kreisal sat/sub system. wink

And seriously, why waste all that time and money on all that paraphernalia only to listen to plastic formula manufactured "music in a can"? Or what I usually call "Canned beats with autotune sauce"?
Whitefang
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#2874398 - 08/22/17 08:15 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4995
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: whitefang
Nothing saddens me more than seeing a kid put some "music" on his thin, handheld "device" and bobbing his head as if he's listening to something "good" with such tinny, highly distorted sound.
Whitefang


I may have shared the story here of a choir director sitting in my studio & telling me we needed to remix one of the tracks we'd been working, because the bass was too low. Then she pulled out her iPhone & played the track in question & said "See, you can't really hear the bass properly."
Or the time a piano student was recording an audition tape here, & said of the first session that his teacher felt there was too much 'hammer noise' in the recording. Being an accommodating sort I moved the piano & the mics around until the kid was happy & I thought the sound was no longer very good. He then states, "Yeah, when my teacher heard the recording on his iPhone he said the hammer noise was too loud."
People are making qualitative decisions about sound based on a listening experience which provides maybe a couple percent of the necessary information for an informed perception. This is not smart listening.
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#2874402 - 08/22/17 08:29 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Scott Fraser]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 3190
Loc: Inside the Beltway
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
People are making qualitative decisions about sound based on a listening experience which provides maybe a couple percent of the necessary information for an informed perception. This is not smart listening.


+100, Scott! That, and trying to listen to Music on a f@#%ing laptop!?!?!?! How small are those drivers, 1/32 inch?

Earbuds, like Trix, are for kids. I still use big old studio "cans", AKG Studio 240's.
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#2874411 - 08/22/17 08:43 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Winston Psmith]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
+1 Earphones make a big difference, even on a laptop with YT clips. It won't help the sound of modern Pop Music though LOL! I also plug my laptop into my Roland Street Cube to play along with YT clips and it makes a big difference! Those kids with the buds may be hearing their recordings better than some might think. Nothing is going to keep up with sophisticated home sound systems. I like listening to live DVD's on my blue ray surround sound system. Sounds good enough for my deaf ears LOL! cool
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#2874423 - 08/22/17 09:42 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 205
Loc: Shenzhen, China
There are good ear buds and bad ear buds, just like bad and good pop, rack, blues, county and any other type of music you can think of.
I have Bose ear buds, which are very good. I use them when I'm running because I'm unable to carry a stereo system and run at the same time.


Edited by JuJu Kwan (08/22/17 09:42 AM)
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#2874439 - 08/22/17 10:17 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Fred_C]
p90jr Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2887
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
The sound quality of a smartphone through headphones or a "Bluetooth" speaker is actually quite good.

The mini (1/8' jack) on my computer is broken (the nice folks at Geek Squad told me that I should buy a new computer!) and therefore I can't use stereo computer speakers (which are also musically satisfying). I purchased a Bluetooth speaker for $60 and a pair of Bluetooth headphones for $50 and the problem is solved. I only use them in my bedroom late at night or early in the morning when I want quiet music. Both YouTube and Pandora sound very good through a Bluetooth device and even better through a pair of good quality computer speakers.

Your post serves to illustrate and underscore your ongoing irrational prejudice regarding smartphones and their owners.





I was having beers one night on a friend's porch, and somebody pulled out an iPhone and started to play music through the speaker... and asked the host if he had a bluetooth speaker or something they could plug it into... he said no, but I have an idea... he went inside and came back with a roll from the center of toilet paper and a steak knife. He cut an iPhone sized hole in the side of the roll and and stuck the iPhone into it. It amplified the speaker enough to provide some mellow late night chill music.

It's since become a thing...


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#2874446 - 08/22/17 10:49 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: p90jr]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2887
As for modern pop music sucking... yeah... I even thought that as a punk rock-leaning kid (though now I appreciate that era of pop music for the craft).

There's a vid from England I'll try to find (or did I post it here already?) that explains why... it's ALL mostly written by the same two people, and rather than spend millions on different bands or acts to see which ones are lucky enough to have the stars align and become superstars it's become a formula: take a song that's pretty much guaranteed to be a hit because it is a rewrite of the last hit song one of those two guys wrote and get someone who will appeal to 13-25 women to sing it.

That's pop music. Rock music generally shot itself in the foot by becoming too joyless and depressing and serious and unfun, or becoming too goofy and lightweight. Rock music is the music of working class kids, so they can escape and let off steam. Hip Hop and Rap became a better conduit for that than post-grunge era rock (and can we talk about the rock stars of that era themselves committing suicide or OD'ing... not a joyful scene). Not that the gangsta rap phase was all smiles and light entertainment, but at least it provided movie-like escapism in the "Scarface" vein or whatever.

"Modern Country Pop has turned into rap for people who don't like black people." - Steve Earle.

True in a lot of ways... though some of it is hair metal for people who don't like dudes in makeup and spandex.

I mostly hear modern pop music through my 5-year-old listening to the KIDZ BOP versions... and I like those versions better (they're more fitting when aimed at little kids, though they have to rewrite a lot of the lyrics).

But, yeah... modern pop music is not made for us... it's made for 13-25 year old females, and it's made to also sell them ringtones and clothes and make-up and whatever else.

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#2874449 - 08/22/17 11:05 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: p90jr]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 8009
Loc: Japan
That is true-the top 40 is more like five people with a bunch of interchangeable singers.
The singers want to act and then have clothing lines or signature fragrances. They know interchangeability will strike sooner or later so they plan ahead.
The plan is lubricated with a charitable foundation, or visible work for an established cause.
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#2874456 - 08/22/17 11:42 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2887
And that was how it always was... except for a few decades when rock music because the predominant musical form (and even then it still kind of worked that way...).

I do not for a minute begrudge Hip Hip or Rap. It was the organic folk music of the environments that produced it. In New Orleans, it actually merged with the traditional music of black neighborhoods, there - brass band jazz. Same spirit... where kids in Queens took a thrift store turntable and beats and riffs from thrift store records and made something new out of it, in N.O. they took the passed down trumpets and Sousaphones and bass drums.



... and that spirit is why I was attracted to punk rock/new wave when I was a kid. I'd have people who I could outplay snub me as far as jamming or whatever because I only had a little practice amp so I wasn't "serious." Meanwhile, I would see punk bands playing gigs outside at the University here with the same little practice amp mic'ed up... and no fancy trappings, and a couple of hundred people loving it. It just felt more honest than focusing so much on appearances... and I still kind of carry that in me.

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#2874470 - 08/22/17 01:00 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Fred_C]
desertbluesman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 4375
Loc: Near Phoenix Az
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
The sound quality of a smartphone through headphones or a "Bluetooth" speaker is actually quite good.

You betcha, we have a salt water pool in our community. A particular crowd hangs out there from 4:00 PM onward. One guy brings this 5" square Bluetooth speaker hooked to his smartphone, and the sound quality is astonishing for such a small unit. And it is fairly loud.
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#2874505 - 08/22/17 03:20 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: desertbluesman]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I notice that DMoon hasn't returned since posting this a couple days back so maybe they won't be reached by this but as a FWIW, the standard evaluation of most art, incl music, is that 9X% is crap.
However, the fact is that, just in terms of generalities, no art form is full-on shoe smear alla the time.

I think the trick is using yer discrimination to focus on what y' like & finding sources that provide that whilst staying fresh & open to new things so you don't become hidebound...a fate that, unfortunately, affects too many.
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#2874568 - 08/22/17 11:37 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: p90jr]
skipclone 1 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 8009
Loc: Japan
I ran into the same attitude in N.Y.-anyone who couldn`t discuss the latest gear and didn`t keep up with what everyone was buying that month, was quickly left behind in a conversation. There were a few bands that came out of the scene like Rancid, and Big Audio Dynamite though they weren`t punk exactly, but I thought they were good. A lot of it sounded like all attitude and no ability-ironically enough, replace attitude with looks and you end up with pop.
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#2874604 - 08/23/17 04:06 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Well, d....

There ARE those that've become "hidebound" IN SPITE of being "fresh & open to new things" because their "frsh and open" ears haven't HEARD anything those ears wanted to embrace.

After all, we ARE discussing an "art form" with "art" ALWAYS being subjective in nature.

Then there are those who embrace ANYTHING "fresh and new" because they've always believed they're SUPPOSED to. I've always called those folks "Trend whores". wink

Then again too, there are those who REJECT anything "fresh and new" for the same reason.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/23/17 04:10 AM)
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#2874642 - 08/23/17 06:59 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: p90jr]
Delta Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 239
Loc: Ormond Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: p90jr
Originally Posted By: Fred_C
The sound quality of a smartphone through headphones or a "Bluetooth" speaker is actually quite good.

The mini (1/8' jack) on my computer is broken (the nice folks at Geek Squad told me that I should buy a new computer!) and therefore I can't use stereo computer speakers (which are also musically satisfying). I purchased a Bluetooth speaker for $60 and a pair of Bluetooth headphones for $50 and the problem is solved. I only use them in my bedroom late at night or early in the morning when I want quiet music. Both YouTube and Pandora sound very good through a Bluetooth device and even better through a pair of good quality computer speakers.

Your post serves to illustrate and underscore your ongoing irrational prejudice regarding smartphones and their owners.





I was having beers one night on a friend's porch, and somebody pulled out an iPhone and started to play music through the speaker... and asked the host if he had a bluetooth speaker or something they could plug it into... he said no, but I have an idea... he went inside and came back with a roll from the center of toilet paper and a steak knife. He cut an iPhone sized hole in the side of the roll and and stuck the iPhone into it. It amplified the speaker enough to provide some mellow late night chill music.

It's since become a thing...



Very apropo' for modern pop music!


Edited by Delta (08/23/17 07:00 AM)
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#2874648 - 08/23/17 07:17 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2037
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
A lot of it sounded like all attitude and no ability-ironically enough, replace attitude with looks and you end up with pop.


I'll never forget the time when a young guitar student of mine tried to explain to me that "Grunge" musicians were actually proud of not playing well. Incredible!!!
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#2874650 - 08/23/17 07:25 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2037
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: whitefang
But you see, that's not what I'm SEEING. I notice just holding the phone out (like a waiter might hold a tray) and NOT using any earphones, "buds" or any bluetooth attachments.

While I'll concede those items might increase the sound qality somewhat, I don't think they'll ever outdo my Nakamichi Stasis TA-4A and Miller & Kreisal sat/sub system. wink

Whitefang


I was not aware of this fact and apologize for my assumption.

You're correct, These small, relatively inexpensive audio devices (headphones, Bluetooth speakers etc.) will never compete with a quality home system. To borrow a quotation from Mr. Scott on the original Startrek series, "I canna' repeal the laws of Physics, Captain."
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#2874661 - 08/23/17 08:19 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Fred_C]
whitefang Offline
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Apology accepted(though not really needed smile )but I also wonder...

JuJu mentioned the variance of quality in the different listening devices( earbuds, headphones, etc, ) and also I wonder if the quality of the SOURCE plays a large part in that. For instance...

Is the signal received and delivered by an iPhone better, worse or the same as from a Samsung Galaxy? And do iPod stored mp3 files sound better, worse or equal to what one gets from a compact disc?

Having never experienced ALL that's out there, I couldn't fairly give a well informed answer, and am too, guilty of making some possibly unfair assumptions. And how seriously SHOULD I take the opinion about any of this from someone who might not have experienced anything different?
Whitefang
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#2874750 - 08/23/17 12:49 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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After reading the commentary here, both in regard to musical quality & audio quality of diff devices, I must say that the most defining thing abt many of the opinions is along the lines of "this is what I like'.

Some limit their listening to a few narrow sources, hence aren't aware of what's actually happening.
Some make presumptions abt the quality of a audio reproduction device based on their imagined idea of what such a device might sound like, the admit they never heard one.

If all one ventures to hear is what you already listen to, everything else will always be of lesser quality.

Despite what some like to think, there's a diff between an opinion & an informed opinion.
Not all opinions are equal & not everything is relative & up for grabs.
Criteria for evaluating art, products & facts are real.
However, they don't just come to us.
We must acquire them.

So.
"All that stuff sux", applied to any category is false.
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#2874756 - 08/23/17 01:26 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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I'm always on the lookout for new music that interests me. So far, new music in Pop, Rap and Country just can't get me interested. Some of the older Pop like Michael Jackson and Bolton, and going back even further like Johnny Mathis, Tony Bennett, further Sinatra, yada yada yada, is still music to my ears. The newer digital age stuff still sux for now IMHO... cool
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#2874760 - 08/23/17 01:44 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
Delta Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
After reading the commentary here, both in regard to musical quality & audio quality of diff devices, I must say that the most defining thing abt many of the opinions is along the lines of "this is what I like'.

Some limit their listening to a few narrow sources, hence aren't aware of what's actually happening.
Some make presumptions abt the quality of a audio reproduction device based on their imagined idea of what such a device might sound like, the admit they never heard one.

If all one ventures to hear is what you already listen to, everything else will always be of lesser quality.

Despite what some like to think, there's a diff between an opinion & an informed opinion.
Not all opinions are equal & not everything is relative & up for grabs.
Criteria for evaluating art, products & facts are real.
However, they don't just come to us.
We must acquire them.

So.
"All that stuff sux", applied to any category is false.


I never said that ALL pop music sucks. I heard hundreds of these pop songs over the 2 week period I mentioned. Some were better than others, however there wasn't 1 that I actually enjoyed.
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#2874762 - 08/23/17 01:49 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
I'm always on the lookout for new music that interests me. So far, new music in Pop, Rap and Country just can't get me interested. Some of the older Pop like Michael Jackson and Bolton, and going back even further like Johnny Mathis, Tony Bennett, further Sinatra, yada yada yada, is still music to my ears. The newer digital age stuff still sux for now IMHO... cool

That just means yer either looking for what you already like & rejecting all else out of hand or yer looking in, as some cat said abt 1990, all the wrong places.

People can like or dislike whatever but to categorically maintain that all of anything is bad is not a sign of discernment but of a closed mind.
Originally Posted By: Delta
I never said that ALL pop music sucks. I heard hundreds of these pop songs over the 2 week period I mentioned. Some were better than others, however there wasn't 1 that I actually enjoyed.

Naw, I rechecked & you only said "modern pop music sucks" but the crux of the issue remains the same & applies, as I said just above, to any blanket categorization.
Not just you, Delta, but as amply demonstrated by some of the comments here, many base their judgements on preconceived notions.
I suspect some may not actually be able to hear passed though prejudices.
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#2874771 - 08/23/17 02:49 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
Delta Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I'm always on the lookout for new music that interests me. So far, new music in Pop, Rap and Country just can't get me interested. Some of the older Pop like Michael Jackson and Bolton, and going back even further like Johnny Mathis, Tony Bennett, further Sinatra, yada yada yada, is still music to my ears. The newer digital age stuff still sux for now IMHO... cool

That just means yer either looking for what you already like & rejecting all else out of hand or yer looking in, as some cat said abt 1990, all the wrong places.

People can like or dislike whatever but to categorically maintain that all of anything is bad is not a sign of discernment but of a closed mind.
Originally Posted By: Delta
I never said that ALL pop music sucks. I heard hundreds of these pop songs over the 2 week period I mentioned. Some were better than others, however there wasn't 1 that I actually enjoyed.

Naw, I rechecked & you only said "modern pop music sucks" but the crux of the issue remains the same & applies, as I said just above, to any blanket categorization.
Not just you, Delta, but as amply demonstrated by some of the comments here, many base their judgements on preconceived notions.
I suspect some may not actually be able to hear passed though prejudices.


I never used the word "ALL". If I say, "In my opinion, modern pop music sucks", does that work for you? cool


Edited by Delta (08/23/17 03:00 PM)
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#2874773 - 08/23/17 02:52 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
So.
"All that stuff sux", applied to any category is false.


Not patently. Particularily if it's in referrence to one person's opinion. To THAT individual perhaps, all that they so far experienced might "suck" to them. And who among us can sufficiently claim that opinion WASN'T based on only "a few narrow sources"? And as the opinion was centered on modern "pop" music, and not ALL "modern" music, it remains a valid one.

Being open minded and accepting ANYTHING "new" out of hand doesn't make anyone more authorative about any topic than anyone else. But does allow those things have a RIGHT to exist despite overwhelming unfavorable opinions.

If art be self expression, then there must be allowance for it's presentation, regardless if the "art" is in any particular medium. Music for example. If the music being created IS a representation of the "artist's" personal self expression, and not a display of a commercially crafted formula aimed at a particular area of interest, then it truly can be considered an artistic endeavor, but wide acceptance of it depends on many factors.

In another way...Art isn't "art" because one person or a small group of individuals CLAIM it is. It takes ALL artists involved in that particular art form's acceptance to be considered so. All the rest of us can do is consider how it appeals to our personal tastes as to whether WE accept it as so.
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#2874783 - 08/23/17 04:37 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: Larryz
I'm always on the lookout for new music that interests me. So far, new music in Pop, Rap and Country just can't get me interested. Some of the older Pop like Michael Jackson and Bolton, and going back even further like Johnny Mathis, Tony Bennett, further Sinatra, yada yada yada, is still music to my ears. The newer digital age stuff still sux for now IMHO... cool

That just means yer either looking for what you already like & rejecting all else out of hand or yer looking in, as some cat said abt 1990, all the wrong places.

People can like or dislike whatever but to categorically maintain that all of anything is bad is not a sign of discernment but of a closed mind.


I didn't say anything about rejecting all of anything and I did say I'm open minded and will look for something of future interest. Right now it (i.e. Modern Pop Music) doesn't interest me at all. In my prior post I said I reviewed the top 200 and I would be lucky to give 10% of it a worthwhile rating IMHO. It's like opera, I don't care for it so I would not be listening to it (no matter how great and classic) I would not be looking for my love there...I have heard some beauty in the arts that I have mentioned, but I reserve the right to change the station and vote with my pocket book. Certain things do not interest me while others truly enjoy them... cool

ps. I did say the digital stuff sux and that would include all of it...


Edited by Larryz (08/23/17 04:42 PM)
Edit Reason: ps.
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#2874827 - 08/24/17 03:56 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Exactly!

Whitefang
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#2874869 - 08/24/17 07:03 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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thu
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#2874885 - 08/24/17 07:55 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Apology accepted(though not really needed smile )but I also wonder...

JuJu mentioned the variance of quality in the different listening devices( earbuds, headphones, etc, ) and also I wonder if the quality of the SOURCE plays a large part in that. For instance...

Is the signal received and delivered by an iPhone better, worse or the same as from a Samsung Galaxy? And do iPod stored mp3 files sound better, worse or equal to what one gets from a compact disc?

Having never experienced ALL that's out there, I couldn't fairly give a well informed answer, and am too, guilty of making some possibly unfair assumptions. And how seriously SHOULD I take the opinion about any of this from someone who might not have experienced anything different?
Whitefang


As far as sound sources, yes there is a difference among mobile phones-I can`t compare iphone and Galaxy but, it`s easy enough to look up statistical user comparisons from sources like Consumer Reports. My Galaxy S5 went missing last year so I had to plow through a lot of information to get a new phone early this year. I am basically an Android guy-the S7 is still way up there pricewise but, aside from sound quality there are other considerations like battery life. That, and camera quality are probably the big three points in choosing a phone. I take a lot of pictures and video as well so my two priorities were battery life and camera. I`m not a fan of portable sound devices in general. Maybe it`s the martial arts guy in me but, IMO blocking off the abiliy to hear what`s going on around me is like putting on really dark glasses. Or wearing nose plugs. That`s especially true these days with people using vehicles as weapons. I don`t want to miss a revving engine, not even for Pink Floyd.


Edited by skipclone 1 (08/24/17 10:29 PM)
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#2875074 - 08/24/17 11:25 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
skipclone 1 Offline
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My original thought for this post was, to offer a few examples of pop music that doesn`t suck. But regardless of majority opinion, all I can do is post my opinion-and inevitably it won`t work for someone else. There`s really no point. I`ll just say this-the music I grew up on is the foundation of where I am today, both as a music maker and listener. I can still listen to it anytime anywhere. But part of my job is, to stay relevant. I perform for people in their 20s and 30s. Sometimes I do play the music I treasure most but I also have to press on, sometimes I rearrange songs that don`t have guitar. A while back someone mentioned arranging `Say a Prayer` by Duran Duran for guitar. It`s actually a beautiful song at its base, without the loud keyboard. There`s good stuff out there, but not just by hitting the power button. That was never the case anyway.
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#2875075 - 08/24/17 11:44 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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The definition of "pop"- like any genre- is also nebulous. My first thought in this thread was to offer counterexamples, but it's tough to do without parameters...
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#2875078 - 08/25/17 01:27 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Fred_C]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fred_C
Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
A lot of it sounded like all attitude and no ability-ironically enough, replace attitude with looks and you end up with pop.


I'll never forget the time when a young guitar student of mine tried to explain to me that "Grunge" musicians were actually proud of not playing well. Incredible!!!


Fred C
I would be more inclined to agree with that about punk. By the time grunge came along, that ethic was not universal. Two defining grunge bands, Alice in Chains and Soundgarden, may not be your taste personally. But they could definitely play. Nothing surprised me more than when Dave Grohl, a competent multi-instrumentalist and singer, came from Nirvana, a band who had some good songs but were shockingly amatuerish on their instruments. A long, long publicity stunt methinks.
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#2875085 - 08/25/17 04:15 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
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Definition of "pop"?

Now, THERE'S a debate that can heat up fast!

Back in "the day"(which is different for a lot of people) I used to define it as in comparison of what "pop" was in long used vernacular. Like....

In these parts, "pop" is the common referrence to SOFT DRINKS. So then, I compared "pop" music to HARDER fare. Like comparing POP to harder beveages. But I was probably being facetious. Then there's some who might define it as music that's POPular commercially. Probably favored by a large number, or the largest number in a particular demographic. And then there's that "subjective" thing again.

I usually derogate the music of the '80's. But retrospectively I have to admit not ALL of it was bad. Just that I didn't care much for a LOT of it. And perhaps at this point, the OP hasn't heard anything yet that he can say DOESN'T suck. At least to HIM. And then again several of us here have reached an age in which we've gone from watching the GRAMMY awards on TV in order to catch a glimpse of our favorite artists, to where NOW we don't know who ANY of the nominees are, or have heard what they're nominated FOR, and it's unsettling. And of course, there's always that "subjective" thing. AGAIN. wink
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/25/17 04:16 AM)
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#2875092 - 08/25/17 04:34 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Well strictly speaking, pop is not subjective. One of the valid criticisms about the Grammy awards, is that they are more like sales awards. That shouldn`t be a surprise when all the live performers are introduced by their name and sales figures-a whole new meaning to watching one`s figure I suppose.
In that way, some media channels referred to Michael Jackson, after his legal troubles got real, as the `Self-proclamed King of Pop`. Um....no. He didn`t proclaim it. His sales figures did.
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#2875156 - 08/25/17 07:48 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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Sales figures do represent a vote of the people...I'm wondering who would be the King of Pop now? Which Pop artist(s) is selling the most records, CD's, downloads, etc., these days? cool
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#2875161 - 08/25/17 07:58 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Gaga & Timberlake are still big, but others are in the same orbit.
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#2875191 - 08/25/17 10:40 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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It`s funny though-my brother and I were talking music on one of my summer visits-Timberlake`s `Justified` was a smash hit-but the actual financial return on it after all the expenses, was not that great.
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#2875249 - 08/25/17 03:28 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Sales figures do represent a vote of the people...I'm wondering who would be the King of Pop now? Which Pop artist(s) is selling the most records, CD's, downloads, etc., these days? cool


Yeah, but just remember...

Sales figures are NOT an indicator of QUALITY. I mean if you claim that sales figures is what made Michael Jackson the "King" of "pop", and nothing ELSE, then you have to wonder why ELVIS was considered the "King" of "rock'n'Roll"! wink

And if sales figures AREN'T an indicator of QUALITY, THEN what does it mean for both?
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/25/17 03:28 PM)
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#2875255 - 08/25/17 04:10 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I'm not following that one Fang, as Elvis sold more records than any other rock and roll or other genre artist. The Beatles are the only ones that beat him (but not as single artists). I know you like to debate this concept with regard to quality and/or whatever, but record sales are the king when it comes to who comes out at the top of the Billboard top 10, top 40, top 100 each year. I think people vote with their pocket books and it's just a hard rating to ignore...I like both Michael and Elvis whether they're considered the king or not. I know they both sold a ton of records that had a lot to do with the king moniker cool
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#2875292 - 08/25/17 11:24 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
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There`s also this historical note-for a long time, `popular` meant the opposite of quality. Think of it more like `populist` and you get the idea. Even now, trying to equate the two is illogical.

The flip aide of that is-I got in a debate with a friend about it, I think it`s mostly a coastal mentality. A band says, `This tune is by The Yellowjackets`, and everybody is supposed to go `ooooooohhh`. My friend said, `It`s quality music`. So what? that doesn`t mean I`m going to enjoy hearing it. If I didn`t care for a song, and someone says, `But that was by The Yellowjackets`, is that supposed the change my mind? I don`t think so.


Edited by skipclone 1 (08/25/17 11:42 PM)
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#2875309 - 08/26/17 04:46 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
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Exactly Skip. And my point is that.

If somebody recorded themselves farting the National Anthem and it topped the carts due to sales wouldn't make it "great" nor make the gas man "King" of anything. Except of making people look foolish.

Of course, Michael and Elvis gave us MUCH better than that, but you should get what I mean now. wink And I apologize for the indelicacy but I didn't want to bring up my "pet rock" example. Again! And Skip.....

On the TCM forum I'm in, your "Yellowjackets" example illustrates what I go through concerning an old "comedy" movie called BRINGING UP BABY". For YEARS so-called "experts" have lauded how "great" that movie is. I personally don't think it's all that GOOD, let alone "great", yet others attach that "oooooooh" factor to it.
Whitefang
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#2875311 - 08/26/17 05:10 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
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I know that. You know that. But mass media does not support that. None of us no matter how good we are, would ever be signed to a label without the ability to sell stuff. It doesn`t matter if you do that by hanging a rope under a bridge and swinging from one side to the other without getting hit by traffic...
hang on, I`m gonna write that down...
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#2875313 - 08/26/17 05:11 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
skipclone 1 Offline
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I mean, I wouldn`t actually DO that.
yet.....
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#2875329 - 08/26/17 07:44 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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This quote from Wiki kind of sums it up:

"From about 1967, the term was increasingly used in opposition to the term rock music, a division that gave generic significance to both terms.[13] Whereas rock aspired to authenticity and an expansion of the possibilities of popular music,[13] pop was more commercial, ephemeral and accessible.[14] According to British musicologist Simon Frith, pop music is produced "as a matter of enterprise not art", is "designed to appeal to everyone" and "doesn't come from any particular place or mark off any particular taste". It is "not driven by any significant ambition except profit and commercial reward ... and, in musical terms, it is essentially conservative". It is, "provided from on high (by record companies, radio programmers, and concert promoters) rather than being made from below ... Pop is not a do-it-yourself music but is professionally produced and packaged".[4]"

I would agree with this quote and still say Pop is what's popular (not necessarily quality IMHO) and is judged by record sales, radio programmers and concert promoters. Madonna, Gaga, Justin, Jackson, etc. are but a few examples that even I can recognize... cool


Edited by Larryz (08/26/17 07:45 AM)
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#2875335 - 08/26/17 08:28 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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All that said, I would respond that even within the commercialized confines of "pop", some artists do distinguish themselves with genuine musicality.
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#2875338 - 08/26/17 08:50 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
Larryz Offline
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+1 Lady GaGa with Tony Bennett doing their jazz standards did it for me musicalitywise...I also like a lot of Michael Jackson's music. cool
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#2875345 - 08/26/17 09:12 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Well I was going to mention Squeeze, Level 42, Toto, Joe Jackson-I think an important distinction is, between those who CHOOSE to be pop, and those who can ONLY be pop. One of my Kali instructors is also a rapper. From time to time the idea of recording something together crosses my mind. But it would not change my mind about rap in general-on the contrary, it would be my twisted take on the genre.
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#2875403 - 08/26/17 02:58 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: skipclone 1]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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I dig Brand New Heavies, Maroon 5 and Jamiroquai, for different reasons. Not sure if BNH are still together, though.

And there are several pop stars I respect, even though I don't buy their music.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/26/17 03:07 PM)
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#2875444 - 08/27/17 05:02 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
+1 Lady GaGa with Tony Bennett doing their jazz standards did it for me musicalitywise...I also like a lot of Michael Jackson's music. cool


What GaGa did with Tony was outside of her "usual" comfort zone, and a commercial endeavor too. But it worked well for me too.

And Michael was in a position to push the "pop" envelope, and WHO would DARE try and stop him? So, HIS "pop" was BOUND to be a few cuts above. But then again, most industry suits follow the same belief......

If the only thing you give a group of people to eat is garbage, and they eat nothing BUT garbage for a long enough period of time, then they'll get to where they think of it as GOURMET CUISINE.

Which is why they probably spend so much time concentrating on demographics than "artistic creation".
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#2875458 - 08/27/17 07:37 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I will say Gaga and Michael put on some spectacular shows and had some great music to go with it. Before the break in pop and rock Elvis and The Beatles were considered Pop pre '67. +1 Gaga went out of her comfort zone with Tony and that was not very long ago. But that was different than the modern Pop garbage, in that they took it back to what it once was. There is a ton of stuff to like in the older Pop. I didn't care for GaGa's meat dress outfit though LOL! Madonna is still another heavy hitter in the Pop show business as an artist coming from the older days...I like to watch the older shows now and then even though they define the commercial aspects of Pop. cool


Edited by Larryz (08/27/17 07:58 AM)
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#2875495 - 08/27/17 02:31 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Winston Psmith Offline
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When most of us in this Forum were young, I mean really young, even "Pop" Music was recorded by pros like Glen Campbell (RIP), and Tommy Tedesco. I can't think of anyone in Pop right now who's fit to tune their Guitars.

Lady Gaga, IMHO, is something else entirely. I gave her credit for subverting the Pop aesthetic, and managing to play some real Music at the same time. She invented herself, rather than being the product of some management team. Respect!
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#2875499 - 08/27/17 02:53 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Winston Psmith]
whitefang Offline
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I wonder Winston, what you mean by "really" young?

When I started taking an interest in music to buy records and listen to the top40 radio AM stations, Tedesco was still an unheard of by most session man, and Campbell wasn't heard of at all. And at that time, Well, there WAS Elvis. And The Everly Brothers who with Danny And The Juniors, The Dell Vikings and The Crickets were setting the "pop" bar at the time.

Rock'n'Roll was still considered "new" at the time, and the "pop" charts still had folks like Frankie Laine, Nat "King" Cole and "whistle man" Guy Mitchell charting "hits". It was a mixed bag at the time.
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#2875545 - 08/27/17 09:23 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Delta Offline
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I didn't realize I would start such a fuss when I started this thread. My comment that "modern pop music sucks" was an honest personal opinion, and I meant it in a light hearted way. I realize, at my elderly age, that many of these modern pop songs are loved by many young people, especially females, and I would never take that away from them. I love pretty well all forms of music except country, rap, modern pop, modern rock, and most of the metal stuff. One of my favorites is old prog rock. I love ELP, Yes, Uriah Heep, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Atomic Rooster, Mike Oldfield, Kraftwerk, Hawkwind, Triumvirate, Gentle Giant and whatever I may be forgetting. As I have listened to all this music over the
years and have heard the evolution of sound technology I pretty well knew that the mechanization of music would bring us to this point that we're at, especially with pop music. Music for the masses, most of them not knowing what real music is. I've had some Science Fiction quotes thrown at me regarding music which is funny because I've read SF for decades. "90% of everything is crap" Theodore Sturgeon. How did he come up with 90%? We're getting to the point where all music, entertainment and other "art forms" will be computer generated. Your favorite news anchor won't be human and the so called news that it spouts out will be computer generated. "The Shape of things to Come" indeed.


Edited by Delta (08/27/17 09:33 PM)
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#2875546 - 08/27/17 10:01 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Delta]
Larryz Offline
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You didn't start a fuss Delta, I think it's an interesting thread whether you/me/others like Pop, or not. I happened on a Pop Star playing a piano concert tonight on TV singing his tunes, Sir Elton John. He said he was trying to pick out a song for a 911 concert and Crocodile Rock just didn't seem appropriate LOL! So, he remembered back around '72 from his Honky Chateau album doing Mona Lisa and Mad Hatters being a song about NYC. I loved a lot of his music back then when he did this album and Tumbleweed Connection. I never thought of it as Pop at the time but I realize now, most of his stuff is just that. A very talented singer song writer living in the world of Pop. I'm glad you started this thread and didn't have to kick our asses LOL! cool
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#2875559 - 08/28/17 03:57 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Hmmmm...........

Didn't at the time think of Elton john as a "pop" singer, but now you do? Heh. Know what you mean and how you feel. wink And will never consider "11-17-70" a "pop" recording.

Also reminds me of something I think I brought up here before. An old DOONESBURY strip in which Mike, visiting his much younger brother who runs his own radio station, gets upset when the kid keeps referring to Mike's "heavy" favorites like Hendrix, Deep Purple, Zeppelin and such, as "soft rock". grin

And DELTA---

ANY thread that starts such a lively debate is nothing to feel sorry about or ashamed of. thu
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#2875590 - 08/28/17 07:28 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I bought about 4 of Elton's albums: Madman Across the Water, Honky Chateau, Tumbleweed Connection and Yellow Brick Road. This was back in '72 not long after the 11/17/70 concert. He did write some very fine music. Not like the ones that you mentioned Fang which I would never put in the soft rock category (i.e Hendrix, Zeplin, etc.). I think Elton John, Billy Joel, Michael Jackson, etc., would fit the Soft Rock and/or Pop bill quite comfortably. There was a ton of good Pop music back in the day. Same is true for Country. The new stuff just doesn't interest me in both of these genres. cool


Edited by Larryz (08/28/17 02:31 PM)
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#2875670 - 08/28/17 02:16 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Danzilla Offline
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Having teenage kids, I get to hear more modern pop than I would like, but fortunately they are slightly more discriminating than the general public (or at least, than the radio programmers). While I would not say that I was ever happy that my daughter took to One Direction as much as she did, I listened with a critical (but criterial, to get "d" ish) ear. Most of their albums were producer-created blasé stuff, but there were some tracks that had some real musicians on them, and used some "retro-rock" tones. I'll even say there were a couple of songs that I liked. Of course, they weren't released as singles...

Follow that to a few months ago, when one of them, Harry Styles, released his first solo album. I have to say, it's quite a listenable CD. Some acoustic songs, hardly any noticeable drum programming, no synthesized vocals or autotune. Solid songwriting (all collaborations of Harry, the producers and the musicians). I'd put "Sign of the Times" up there with an old-school Elton John tune. More surprisingly, I've hard a few tracks on local college & independent radio stations that I didn't think would touch such a pop star with a ten foot transmission tower. Now, will this album make my top ten? No, but when songs come on, I don't immediately switch the station. And I hope he'll grow more in this vein.

Of course, the other 1D boys put out solo albums, too, which fall into the 90% category.
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#2875681 - 08/28/17 04:09 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Danzilla]
d Offline
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Been offline for a week so there'll be some backtracking here ...along w/ the inevitable defensiveness from W(T)F & maybe some others but,
hey, it's a big world & we can't help that some space is taken up by muckleheads.

Originally Posted By: Delta
I didn't realize I would start such a fuss when I started this thread. My comment that "modern pop music sucks" was an honest personal opinion, and I meant it in a light hearted way. I realize, at my elderly age, that many of these modern pop songs are loved by many young people, especially females, and I would never take that away from them. I love pretty well all forms of music except country, rap, modern pop, modern rock, and most of the metal stuff. One of my favorites is old prog rock. I love ELP, Yes, Uriah Heep, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Atomic Rooster, Mike Oldfield, Kraftwerk, Hawkwind, Triumvirate, Gentle Giant and whatever I may be forgetting. As I have listened to all this music over the
years and have heard the evolution of sound technology I pretty well knew that the mechanization of music would bring us to this point that we're at, especially with pop music. Music for the masses, most of them not knowing what real music is. I've had some Science Fiction quotes thrown at me regarding music which is funny because I've read SF for decades. "90% of everything is crap" Theodore Sturgeon. How did he come up with 90%? We're getting to the point where all music, entertainment and other "art forms" will be computer generated. Your favorite news anchor won't be human and the so called news that it spouts out will be computer generated. "The Shape of things to Come" indeed.

In re the first statement , DMoon, that's wehat ya get fer posting to a forum where the re are some who got nothin' else to do but act as if everything here is The Most Vital Thing Ever (Within Whatever They Know) grin .
I'd hasten at this point to, uh, point out that the method of production of any art has absolutely nothing to do w/ its viability or other quality.
Sampling in hiphop ? Some may not like it but it sure was trendsetting for mid 20th C cats like Cage & Stockhausen, not to mention the EffAreEeeking Beatles (Tomorrow Never Knows), who, I suspect, fall within the "yeah, they're good" range for most here.

Originally Posted By: d
So.
"All that stuff sux", applied to any category is false.

That statement stands as indisputable.
Some will still argue but to condemn any art in a blanket way defines one's prejudices, not the art in question.
That's just the truth.

Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
The definition of "pop"- like any genre- is also nebulous. My first thought in this thread was to offer counterexamples, but it's tough to do without parameters...

Nah, it's easy to define: pop = popular.
There's room to debate whether any example is good or bad but the fact that many ppl like something doesn't mean that it stinks.
To maintain that is does defines one as an elitist &, more often than not, an elitist with no real sense of what's good except "it can't be good if I don't like it".
Feel free to argue but to do so simply points to one's inability to accurately assess art on its own terms.

Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
There`s also this historical note-for a long time, `popular` meant the opposite of quality. Think of it more like `populist` and you get the idea. Even now, trying to equate the two is illogical.

The flip aide of that is-I got in a debate with a friend about it, I think it`s mostly a coastal mentality. A band says, `This tune is by The Yellowjackets`, and everybody is supposed to go `ooooooohhh`. My friend said, `It`s quality music`. So what? that doesn`t mean I`m going to enjoy hearing it. If I didn`t care for a song, and someone says, `But that was by The Yellowjackets`, is that supposed the change my mind? I don`t think so.

I can go w/ the later part of yer idea there, Skip (re: citing something secondarily to gives oneself validity) but the idea that worthwhile art is the antithesis of popular is like what I just mentioned.
The idea that mass popularity = low brow is easy to claim but it's a mistake & one needn't look farther than wide variety of work by
The Beatles to see the impossibility of that as a criterion.

Most of this thread reminds me of hearing...
14th C / "Did you hear that ?! He wrote a 3rd into that tune---that's just wrong !"
1907 / "Foxtrot ?! That sux ! Give me a good waltz!"
1920 / "Jazz ?! That's just noise !"
1943 / "Bebop ? That's not real jazz---where's the melody ?"
1955 / "Rock & roll ? That crap is crap ! Who cares if kids like it--whatta they know ?"
1982 / "Rap ?! Where's the tune ?"

Catch on , Granny...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTO7WVxjz3A
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#2875720 - 08/29/17 04:23 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Your statement; "....the fact that many ppl like something doesn't mean that it stinks." HASN'T been disputed here, but it was also pointed out that many people liking something doesn't mean it's GOOD. AND the fact that just because some self proclaimed "experts" SAY that something is "art", DOESN'T mean EVERYbody HAS to like it. Most have already agreed that the whole matter is too subjective to be definitive. And all the Huntz Hall affectated prose in the world isn't going to change that.
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#2875768 - 08/29/17 09:16 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Quote:
Nah, it's easy to define: pop = popular.


But that's only trivially true.

C&W is a big seller, but we don't call it "pop". In the 80s, hair metal ruled the airwaves, but no one seriously called it "pop".

Likewise, while I mentioned Jamiroquai and Brand New Heavies, neither bad would label themselves as "pop" either,


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/29/17 09:18 AM)
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#2875830 - 08/29/17 02:18 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
d Offline
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DanA, that's just b/c many don't really think abt what they say or look deep enough to see passed cliches.
Chk the post just before yer's for an example.
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#2875831 - 08/29/17 02:22 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Quote:
Your statement; "....the fact that many ppl like something doesn't mean that it stinks." HASN'T been disputed here, but it was also pointed out that many people liking something doesn't mean it's GOOD. AND the fact that just because some self proclaimed "experts" SAY that something is "art", DOESN'T mean EVERYbody HAS to like it. Most have already agreed that the whole matter is too subjective to be definitive. And all the Huntz Hall affectated prose in the world isn't going to change that.

Keep bumpin' that CapsLock key, eh ? rolleyes
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#2875832 - 08/29/17 02:39 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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If I could get this site to italicize better I wouldn't have to capitalize for emphasis. wink

Another wrench...

OK, we're discussing "pop" music and some are trying to come up with definitions. So, Would anyone say that the word "pop" in the case of music is comparable to it's use in terms like "pop art", or "pop culture"?

And is it really necessary to use it when referring to a style of music? Might be time for a better word.
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#2875842 - 08/29/17 03:43 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I think D said it best "Pop = Popular"...the problem is, that it's what is popular at the time, so it is always changing as far as the genre goes...Rock and Roll changes to Rock and other sub genres as well. The older Pop and Rock have some good stuff and the newer stuff does not hold water for my listening pleasure. New Country and Rap gets put in the same bucket. On the other hand, when I look at the size of the crowds and stadium venues, I know there is something popular going on even if it doesn't interest me. It's all pretty subjective as to whether or not I/we think it's GOOD! LOL! cool


Edited by Larryz (08/29/17 03:45 PM)
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#2875850 - 08/29/17 04:25 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Quote:
If I could get this site to italicize better ...

Look at the tools along the top of yer post entry box, mate
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#2875892 - 08/29/17 11:13 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: d

Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
There`s also this historical note-for a long time, `popular` meant the opposite of quality. Think of it more like `populist` and you get the idea. Even now, trying to equate the two is illogical.

The flip aide of that is-I got in a debate with a friend about it, I think it`s mostly a coastal mentality. A band says, `This tune is by The Yellowjackets`, and everybody is supposed to go `ooooooohhh`. My friend said, `It`s quality music`. So what? that doesn`t mean I`m going to enjoy hearing it. If I didn`t care for a song, and someone says, `But that was by The Yellowjackets`, is that supposed the change my mind? I don`t think so.

I can go w/ the later part of yer idea there, Skip (re: citing something secondarily to gives oneself validity) but the idea that worthwhile art is the antithesis of popular is like what I just mentioned.
The idea that mass popularity = low brow is easy to claim but it's a mistake & one needn't look farther than wide variety of work by
The Beatles to see the impossibility of that as a criterion.


Um...no, actually one does need to look further-like history, for example. That is what I said in my very first sentence. It`s not my idea at all, it`s a historical fact.
I offer this excerpt, from dictionary.com

Meaning "suited to ordinary people" is from 1570s in English; hence, of prices, "low, affordable to average persons" (1859). Meaning "well-liked, admired by the people" is attested from c.1600. Of art, entertainment, etc., "favored by people generally" from 1819 ( popular song). Related: Popularly. Popular Front "coalition of Communists, Socialists, and radicals" is from 1936, first in a French context.

This is from Cambridge English dictionary:

`for or involving ordinary people`.

Here also, from Wiki:


The term "popular culture" was coined in the 19th century or earlier.[8] Traditionally, popular culture was associated with poor education and the lower classes,[9] as opposed to the "official culture" and higher education of the upper classes.[10][11]


Edited by skipclone 1 (08/29/17 11:19 PM)
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#2875903 - 08/30/17 04:48 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Quote:
If I could get this site to italicize better ...

Look at the tools along the top of yer post entry box, mate


Oh, yeah. Like I never tried that before.

But when I did click on the "italicize" box, I got two bracketed "i's" , so I typed my text in between them, but when I hit "submit" my post had the word in regular text IN BETWEEN the two bracketed "i's". Didn't italicize the word at all!

As for "pop"=popular....

I have a feeling that was it's original intent. But lately it seems, it's been corrupted to refer to a specific genre of music. Americans are good for that. ie; the phrase "rip off", once used in the drug world to indicate a fraudulent deal, has been adopted to refer to any level of theft.

Or "uptight" which originally meant the same as "cool" or such, quickly went to indicate someone was being anal. Anyway....

The OP was simply voicing HIS opinion of the state of "pop" music in regards to his own personal tastes, and probably not indicating that he feels it's how everyone else should feel about it. Most responders did agree with him however, so it really wasn't that far out of line. smirk
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#2875914 - 08/30/17 05:54 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang

But when I did click on the "italicize" box, I got two bracketed "i's" , so I typed my text in between them, but when I hit "submit" my post had the word in regular text IN BETWEEN the two bracketed "i's". Didn't italicize the word at all!
Whitefang


@Whitefang - Sorry, brother, you're doing it backwards. Type out your post first, then choose the word(s) you want to italicize, highlight them, and choose the "Italics" option. Yes, you'll still see the two little bracketed "i's", but they should be on either side of the word. Hit "Preview Post" if you want to make sure it worked. Same thing with Bold, or underlined text.
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#2876082 - 08/31/17 04:48 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Winston Psmith]
whitefang Offline
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Thanks. Will give it a try. However....

I mentioned that problem in here more than 17 YEARS ago, and no advice like that was given. wink Why not? But it seems to work. smile
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#2876110 - 08/31/17 07:27 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Thanks. Will give it a try. However....

I mentioned that problem in here more than 17 YEARS ago, and no advice like that was given. wink Why not? But it seems to work. smile
Whitefang


I was going to do it but Winston beat me to it! and, I wasn't here 17 years ago LOL! cool

You can go back highlight the text again and use the Bold on it too!


Edited by Larryz (08/31/17 07:29 AM)
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#2876258 - 09/01/17 04:27 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Hmm. The TCM forum site has it where you just hit the "i" for italic and type normally. No need to highlight first. Kinda spoils one. wink
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#2876297 - 09/01/17 07:56 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I remember back in my High School days, a lot of Pop music was played on my Rock and Roll station. It was OK by me as I fell in love with some of the old tunes like Mack the Knife, Misty, Blue Velvet, I Left My Heart in San Francisco, Danke Schoen, Crazy, etc., and I'm glad I got introduced to Patsy Cline (even though she was mostly country) Tony Bennett, Johnny Mathis, Bobby Vinton, Bobby Darin, Wayne Newton, etc., and to Pop music back then. cool


Edited by Larryz (09/01/17 08:04 AM)
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#2876396 - 09/01/17 02:46 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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???

I thought you were only 1 year older than me. You just ran off a lot of artists and some of their tunes that came out when guys yur age should have still been in GRADE school! and a few when you should have been in JR. high. grin

But I know what you mean. wink
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#2876435 - 09/01/17 04:51 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Well I said they were "old tunes" when I was in High School LOL! I remember these songs still being played on my AM radio while cruising around in my 60 Ford that I bought in my Sophomore year '65. The songs mentioned came out in 62 and 63 when I was in about 7th and 8th grade (except Crazy and Misty came out in 59 about 4th grade) I should have thrown in Paper Roses by Anita Bryant '60 too...I started singing to the radio when I was 5 (circa 1955 Kindergarten) those tunes were Blue Suede Shoes, In the Jailhouse Now, The Cow Jumped Over the Moon (1870 my oldest in the set list LOL!), Don't Let The Stars Get In Your Eyes! cool


Edited by Larryz (09/01/17 04:53 PM)
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#2876513 - 09/02/17 04:07 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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We've discussed the diversity in top 40 AM radio from back in "the day" before. Like in 10 minutes time you could hear a rock'n'roll tune, a country tune, then an R&B tune, and then maybe a folk tune. All without changing the station!

But since the most widely listened to radio stations are on the FM band these days, most of them became formatted. You have "Rock", "Hard Rock", Soft Rock", with Rap, Hip-Hop, what's called R&B these days and today's idea of Soul all shoved into a format called "Urban". And probably what's thought of as "Pop" these days in it's own radio station "format". My newspaper used to have a box in one section that listed the various local radio stations and their formats along with their Arbitron rating. They quit printing it in there a few years ago.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (09/02/17 04:07 AM)
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#2876535 - 09/02/17 06:20 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Bottom End Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
We've discussed the diversity in top 40 AM radio from back in "the day" before. Like in 10 minutes time you could hear a rock'n'roll tune, a country tune, then an R&B tune, and then maybe a folk tune. All without changing the station!

This is true, that's why I grew up with an awareness of a variety of music, whatever came out of the speaker in my parents car when I was a kid.
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#2876560 - 09/02/17 08:16 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Bottom End]
Larryz Offline
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+1 a lot of genres were crammed into one AM station back in the '60's! cool
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#2876570 - 09/02/17 08:42 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
+1 a lot of genres were crammed into one AM station back in the '60's! cool


And it was all "popular" music.
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#2876573 - 09/02/17 08:44 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
You have "Rock", "Hard Rock", Soft Rock", with Rap, Hip-Hop, what's called R&B these days and today's idea of Soul all shoved into a format called "Urban".
Whitefang


And of course, what's termed "Dance" music.
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#2876578 - 09/02/17 09:10 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Larryz
+1 a lot of genres were crammed into one AM station back in the '60's! cool


And it was all "popular" music.


It had to be "popular" as we rock and rollers only had about 3 stations to choose from LOL! The station I listened to most played mostly rock and roll and threw in some country and what I called pop. I didn't consider Cream, The Doors, Beatles, Elvis, Beach Boys, etc., in the same category as Bennett, Vinton, Mathis, etc. But now, Ray Charles (one of my all time favorites) could cross all 3 genres and do it very well! cool
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#2876588 - 09/02/17 09:51 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: Larryz
+1 a lot of genres were crammed into one AM station back in the '60's! cool


And it was all "popular" music.


It had to be "popular" as we rock and rollers only had about 3 stations to choose from LOL! The station I listened to most played mostly rock and roll and threw in some country and what I called pop. I didn't consider Cream, The Doors, Beatles, Elvis, Beach Boys, etc., in the same category as Bennett, Vinton, Mathis, etc. But now, Ray Charles (one of my all time favorites) could cross all 3 genres and do it very well! cool


And I think the artists themselves cared much less about categories back then too. It's all music.
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#2876731 - 09/03/17 03:42 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
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Indeed Scott. But when thinking about this some more I thought of the "mix" on old AM, and what was "popular" on radio over the years. For example:

Over a two or three year period you could hear, mixed in with all the rock'n'roll "classics", tunes like "Calcutta" by Lawrence Welk, "Speedy Gonzalez" by Pat Boone, and Perry Como singing "Catch A Falling Star", and "Theme From A Summer Place" by Percy Faith. And all of them were "hits"! wink

In fact, Como's tune was a "hit" in '57. I should mention it in THAT thread! grin
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (09/03/17 03:42 AM)
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#2876784 - 09/03/17 08:04 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser


And I think the artists themselves cared much less about categories back then too. It's all music.


+1 Scott, it's all music! I played clarinet 1959 - 1964. One of the tunes I picked out by ear was Stranger On The Shore which can be considered a pop tune. I also played drums in the drum corp. And picked out tunes by ear on the piano we kept in the living room. Mostly boogie woogie Elvis tunes in C LOL! One of the tunes I picked out by ear was Alley Cat, which was another pop tune. Then I started playing the guitar and I have stuck with it. Started out with country tunes by Hank Williams Sr. as that's all my dad could show me to get me started. I quickly figured out the boogie and my Elvis tunes from my piano playing. I still play a little piano now and then and relive some of those tunes which I have continued to play on guitar. Funny, but I have put more Hank Williams tunes on my list lately (jazzed up just a tad LOL!). cool


Edited by Larryz (09/03/17 08:05 AM)
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#2877130 - 09/05/17 04:09 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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grin
Heh, heh, heh.....

"Stranger On The Shore" is one I liked back then. As well as "Alley Cat" a few years before that. STILL like'em. And both done by guys with odd names. ACKER BILK, and BENT FABRIC. grin

I mean, how many guys do you know are named "Acker"? And doesn't "Bent Fabric" sound like a problem you'd have with your clothing? grin

But yeah, both tunes were on the "pop" charts in their time. And did pretty good too.
Whitefang
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#2877158 - 09/05/17 07:19 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Another pop tune I picked out on piano was from the 1962 John Wayne movie Hatari and that was Baby Elephant Walk...I still like that little blues vibe in it. cool
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#2877183 - 09/05/17 09:16 AM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Another pop tune I picked out on piano was from the 1962 John Wayne movie Hatari and that was Baby Elephant Walk...I still like that little blues vibe in it. cool


It won Henry Mancini a Grammy.
I forgot that was a John Wayne flick, I just remember Red Buttons.
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#2877235 - 09/05/17 12:18 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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Henry Mancini's first Grammy was for Peter Gun, then The Pink Panther theme and a couple more for Moon River. What a great writer! cool
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#2877271 - 09/05/17 02:40 PM Re: Modern Pop Music Sucks! [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Yeah. I have a CD I copied from my sister in law of his stuff.

And great stuff it is too. wink
Whitefang
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