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#2873822 - 08/18/17 06:20 PM Kurzweil SP6
johnchop Offline
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#2873827 - 08/18/17 06:34 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: johnchop]
cphollis Offline
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My take is that all these folks are taking notice of what Nord is doing, and responding appropriately. Would not be opposed to considering a Kurz stage piano -- if it brought game.

The light weight is a bit of a puzzler -- 27 pounds? -- how the hell did they do that without making the playing experience cheesy?

Inquiring minds want to know smile
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#2873828 - 08/18/17 06:48 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: cphollis]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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UI is always a good starting place to spend development time.
And although we've come to expect sturdy build from Kurzweil, clearly they're seeing Nord's success with keeping weight down and not really compromising road worthiness.
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#2873832 - 08/18/17 07:14 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: cphollis]
slowtraveler Offline
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
The light weight is a bit of a puzzler -- 27 pounds? -- how the hell did they do that without making the playing experience cheesy?

According to product info on the Kurz web site, the SP6 uses a Medeli K6 action. I don't know how it compares with Fatar's TP/100, which would have been obvious choice for a lightweight 88 (and which Kurz has used in the Artis SE and other SP-series boards).

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#2873834 - 08/18/17 07:23 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: slowtraveler]
drawback Offline
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That and the case looks like plastic instead of built like a tank metal.
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#2873848 - 08/18/17 08:55 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: slowtraveler]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Originally Posted By: slowtraveler
Originally Posted By: cphollis
The light weight is a bit of a puzzler -- 27 pounds? -- how the hell did they do that without making the playing experience cheesy?

According to product info on the Kurz web site, the SP6 uses a Medeli K6 action. I don't know how it compares with Fatar's TP/100, which would have been obvious choice for a lightweight 88 (and which Kurz has used in the Artis SE and other SP-series boards).


That's the conundrum. Light weight with an action you love to play - developers and players struggle with this trade-off all the time. The SP6 photos are looking like a plastic housing. I am thinking the action is mounted to plastic as well? Or some aluminum in the base? It's not like the TP-100 is favored in scenarios where weight doesn't matter. So, maybe the Medeli action allows them to meet the price point they wanted? Or maybe it actually plays a little better than the TP-100 (which Kurz uses on the SP4). The SP's compete with Casio PX-5S/560. Maybe in the just over $1k price range it steals some folks. 10 velocity curves being offered with this action. One of them has to work decent, right? wink

SP5 uses LK40GH and ways 46.2lbs - so this is drastic weight cut and they moves the pich and mod wheels upstairs to cut down on length.

The SP4 uses the TP-100 and comes in at 36lbs
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#2873864 - 08/19/17 02:20 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Marko in Boston Offline
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A short video clip. Just marketing not a demo

https://vimeo.com/228135336
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#2873877 - 08/19/17 05:41 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: Marko in Boston]
cphollis Offline
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From the web page:

"Every sound within the SP6 is perfectly matched to its 88-note fully-weighted hammer-action keyboard. Further tailor the SP6 response to your playing style via 10 selectable key velocity maps."

Hmmm. Fully weighted. Selectable key velocity. 27 pounds. Hmmm.
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#2873888 - 08/19/17 06:54 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: cphollis]
Rusty Mike Offline
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I'd speculate that the SP6 comes from the same manufacturing bones as the KA series, and not the Forte/Artis line. It looks to me like they've taken the sound generation technology from the Forte SE and stuck it into the manufacturing of the home/arranger models.

Depending on the price and the feel of the action, it could make a decent keyboard for rehearsals, backup or pickup gigs. Since it's an SP, I would guess a price of $1500 or less, as they would not want it competing with the Artis. Although it would still compete with the Artis SE, having the advantage of lighter weight and more power under the hood due to the LENA DSP.

They don't say anything specific about the EP sounds, which leads me to believe it uses the old PC3 EP patches. That is disappointing.

We will see when it comes out.


Edited by Rusty Mike (08/19/17 06:55 AM)
Edit Reason: additional thought
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#2873898 - 08/19/17 07:50 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: Rusty Mike]
sherry Offline
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Is there a difference between this and the Forte Se, besides weight and key action?

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#2873904 - 08/19/17 08:28 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: sherry]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Here's the lineup comparison chart.

http://kurzweil.com/knowledgebase/forte/product_comparisons/311/
both have 128 poly
Smaller LCD display on the SP6
both have 2gb of flash play samples
no sample memory on the SP6
both have string resonance
SP6 has only 256 factory programs vs. 512 on the SE
SP6 has only 130 Factory Setups/Multis compared to 182 on SE
SP6 has 4 zones, SE 8
They both have some stuff from Kore64 library
SP6 does NOT have VAST editing, where the SE does
Both 32 FX units
The SP6 does NOT have dedicated knobs for Master EQ (this is sort of lame)
No Surf-n-Select sounds navigation on the SP6
No sequencer on the SP6
4 arps on the SP6, 8 on the SE
Same main analog outs on both
No 1/8th" analog ins on the SP6
No digital out on either
No programmable sliders on the SP6, 9 on the SE
4 programmable knobs on the SP6, none on the SE
1 programmable button on the SP6, 11 on the SE
Both have one CC pedal input
Both support half damper on the pianos
Neither have drum pads, ribbon input, or breath control input.

At it's price point, likely between $1 and $1.5k. It's an interesting offering from Kurz, getting quite a bit of the Forte SE (sound wise) in a much cheaper board at half the price.
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#2873909 - 08/19/17 08:55 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Jazzmammal Offline
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The first thing that got me in the vid on the Kurz website is the background "music" is all dubstep style crap while the text overlay and shots of the controls is talking about how great the pianos and organs are but NOT ONE SECOND of a piano or organ sound. It's like they're totally conflicted. They want to produce an instrument with good traditional keyboard sounds but also appeal to DJ's and wannabe "music producers" who will never use those sounds.

Bob

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#2873911 - 08/19/17 09:04 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: Jazzmammal]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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They're in a strange new world at Kurzweil.
How to avoid alienating the base (which is an awful lot of pro users) and attract some new fans.

With the full size 88k instruments I think they should focus on players.
To pick up some DJ sales, they should do a VAST VA synth with knobs for every parameter with seq and arp - small keyboard or desktop. Like a cross between a Sledge and a Fantom.

Do they have a tie in, added value with a software developer? They should maybe look for some way they can hook up with Ableton or Propellerheads or something.
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#2873916 - 08/19/17 11:32 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: ElmerJFudd]
sherry Offline
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Hmmm. Looks like there will be an editor, so I'm assuming VAST editing will be possible. No sampling is ok with me, but not have the 1/8 " analog inputs so I could at least use an iPad for samples might be a deal breaker for me. Love the weight of this thing though. I'm old.

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#2873918 - 08/19/17 11:54 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: sherry]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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If you use an mixer or multi input av direct box you can use iPad.
I'd be very surprised if the editor let you do a great deal programming wise.

When they say you can download more sounds, I presume they mean programs as opposed to additional samples?
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#2873953 - 08/19/17 04:13 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: ElmerJFudd]
johnchop Offline
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Looks like no new samples but supports import of PC and Forte series programs, which is cool, since all the sample ROM is in the machine.

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#2873964 - 08/19/17 06:19 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: johnchop]
b3plyr Online   content
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The key will be the keybed (pun intended). It uses a Medeli K6. As to sounds, the SP6 has a lot of horsepower in Flash-Play, the LENA Processor, and 32 FX units. FYI, LENA is used in the Forte SE. I like the lightweight, but already have a Forte, so it is wait and see time.

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#2873966 - 08/19/17 06:23 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: b3plyr]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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It looks like the innards would be near the same as the Forte SE. The case, action, and UI/controls and screen being the big difference, and they've turned off a few things to make sure there's no confusion between why this model is over a grand less.
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#2873968 - 08/19/17 07:26 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: Rusty Mike]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
The light weight is a bit of a puzzler -- 27 pounds? -- how the hell did they do that without making the playing experience cheesy?

It only has to be no more cheesy than a TP100. ;-)

Originally Posted By: slowtraveler

According to product info on the Kurz web site, the SP6 uses a Medeli K6 action. I don't know how it compares with Fatar's TP/100

Originally Posted By: Rusty Mike
I'd speculate that the SP6 comes from the same manufacturing bones as the KA series, and not the Forte/Artis line. It looks to me like they've taken the sound generation technology from the Forte SE and stuck it into the manufacturing of the home/arranger models.

I think you guys are right. And I'd actually suggested to Dave W. that Kurz do something like that. Which of course is probably nothing but coincidence. It seemed logical to me, though. An updated SP in the lightweight chassis they're sourcing from Medelli anyway would allow them to compete in the lightweight market. As for what it feels like, if it is indeed the action of the KA90, it's adequate, at least as good as a TP100, I'd say. Actually, as a point of reference, I'd say that the common action it most reminds me of is the Yamaha GHS.

Originally Posted By: Rusty Mike
Since it's an SP, I would guess a price of $1500 or less, as they would not want it competing with the Artis. Although it would still compete with the Artis SE, having the advantage of lighter weight and more power under the hood due to the LENA DSP.

I see this as a higher end board than the Artis SE. Maybe it will replace it, or maybe it will sell at a premium to it. I don't think the SP nomenclature necessarily relates to how it will be priced. (They'd also have the option of lowering the price of the Artis SE.)

Originally Posted By: Rusty Mike
They don't say anything specific about the EP sounds, which leads me to believe it uses the old PC3 EP patches. That is disappointing.

The site says, "The SP6 offers all of the sample content from the Forte SE and features a wide selection of tailored sounds from the acclaimed ForteŽ and Forte SE (EP, Clav, Celeste, Crotales, Harpsichord)"

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Here's the lineup comparison chart.
...
At it's price point, likely between $1 and $1.5k. It's an interesting offering from Kurz, getting quite a bit of the Forte SE (sound wise) in a much cheaper board at half the price.

Sub-$1500 sound too optimistic to me, considering (a) how close it is in many respects to that Forte SE, and (b) the price of boards you might see as the competition. I don't think they're chasing Casio... they never have, and this is way over-spec'd for that, with 2 GB of sample memory and 32 fx units. I'd say $1500 is bare minimum, and could easily be $2k. It's not impossible it could be higher that that, too. In some respects it is arguably a competitor to a Nord HP model (starts at $3k) and the $2500 Grandstage. But if we're starting a pool, I'll go with $1,895.
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#2874025 - 08/20/17 10:58 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: AnotherScott]
johnchop Offline
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I never used anywhere near what the PC3 is capable of. There's that geeky part of me that wants the satisfaction of knowing I could do all kinds of interesting things with a board, but my (extremely limited) gigging reality doesn't demand anywhere near that level of sophistication.

If it's got better-tasting bread and the butter, and feels reasonably good, I'm sold, given that I can leverage the sound investment I already know and enjoy.

Very eager to play this!
-John

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#2874028 - 08/20/17 11:15 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: johnchop]
johnchop Offline
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Also...
Two more notes:

- Doesn't look like there's aftertouch? Not a deal-breaker for me, as aftertouch on a weighted action just feels weird to me.

- I keep wondering what the advantage of FlashPlay really is, beyond allowing Kurzweil to add a lot of sample ROM relatively inexpensively. I mean, that's great, but I sort of want more flexibility akin to Nord's sample-loading approach. Maybe that's down the road.
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#2874048 - 08/20/17 01:05 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: johnchop]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: johnchop


- I keep wondering what the advantage of FlashPlay really is, beyond allowing Kurzweil to add a lot of sample ROM relatively inexpensively. I mean, that's great, but I sort of want more flexibility akin to Nord's sample-loading approach. Maybe that's down the road.


Flashplay is user flash sample area (2gb) where you can load your own samples or third party libraries. You can convert software sample libraries using products like Translator. It is not limited to a single velocity layer like Nord. You can create sophisticated instruments with it. I'll be looking at providing a version of my stuff for it. Maybe a slightly scaled down version of what I have for the Forte.

Busch.

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#2874049 - 08/20/17 01:13 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: burningbusch]
The Piano Man Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Originally Posted By: johnchop


- I keep wondering what the advantage of FlashPlay really is, beyond allowing Kurzweil to add a lot of sample ROM relatively inexpensively. I mean, that's great, but I sort of want more flexibility akin to Nord's sample-loading approach. Maybe that's down the road.


Flashplay is user flash sample area (2gb) where you can load your own samples or third party libraries. You can convert software sample libraries using products like Translator. It is not limited to a single velocity layer like Nord. You can create sophisticated instruments with it. I'll be looking at providing a version of my stuff for it. Maybe a slightly scaled down version of what I have for the Forte.

Busch.


So you can load your own samples on the SP6? How does that work? Do you load wav files and then edit through the piano itself? Or through SP6 editor software of some kind?

I do this with my Nord Stage via the Nord Sample Manager and find it so simple to work.
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#2874053 - 08/20/17 01:26 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: The Piano Man]
burningbusch Offline
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Don't know the details of editing internal vs. what third-party software is necessary. I am assuming this will be a long the lines of the Forte. Yes Nord has a nice editor for putting together a basic keymap. The other players no longer provide software like this and instead rely on third parties.

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#2874055 - 08/20/17 01:30 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: johnchop]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Originally Posted By: johnchop
Also...

- I keep wondering what the advantage of FlashPlay really is, beyond allowing Kurzweil to add a lot of sample ROM relatively inexpensively. I mean, that's great, but I sort of want more flexibility akin to Nord's sample-loading approach. Maybe that's down the road.


The Forte has 3.3 GB of non-volatile flash memory that supports .WAV, .AIF (up to 16 bit / 96kHz) and Kurzweil formats (.P3K, .KRZ, .K25, .K26). This dwarfs the Nord Stage 3's sample synth which provides only 480mb of storage for their sample synth which supports only .WAV and is single layer with rudimentary controls.

Forte also has 16gb from Kurzweil's library onboard all the time. Nord has a growing library but the Nord Stage 3 with pianos for example only hold 2gb at any one time.

Different ideas on how to accommodate their customers needs and different priorities on how much storage to include on their hardware (processing power, polyphony, split/layers, multi fx, etc.). Simplicity vs. capability and finding the balance that resonates with their users.

Personally I'd love to see them both Nord and Kurz not so reliant on Fatar for their actions. Assuming that will not change in the near future or ever... It would be nice to see a Forte and or Stage 3 rack or desktop to use with the stage piano of our choice. I suppose this is why guys go for a 61/73k synth action model and mount over a CP4 or MP7 or something with MIDI.
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#2874059 - 08/20/17 01:52 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: ElmerJFudd]
johnchop Offline
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Right, so I get the Forte model.

I'm just wondering if loading samples will trickle down to other FlashPlay 'boards.

Otherwise it's marketing fluff that tells us HOW they put 2 GB of samples in there, but it's not something we can take advantage of technically.

Not a negative if it doesn't.

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#2874064 - 08/20/17 02:15 PM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: johnchop]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Most boards in entry level pricing are still using ROMs.
Flash RAM is found on the various Nord models, Kurzweil Forte (2gb on Forte SE and SP6 to hold Kurz library, only Forte and Forte 7 has 3.3gb for users to upload to), and Yamaha Montage which has 1.75gb for users to load into. Flash RAM can be added to the MOXF models via user installable cards (512mb or 1024mb at a time). Open to user and third party development unlike Nord where the library is closed to their proprietary format. GSi is doing the same/similar with the Gemini products. Flash RAM for storage but not open to user or third party development.

Again, same tech basically - just different philosophies on how to allow users to use it.
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#2874386 - 08/22/17 06:56 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: ElmerJFudd]
hipogrito Offline
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Hi,

The key of FlashPlay technology is that not only lets Kurzweil keyboards access many gigabytes of affordable sample flash memory but it does it in zero-time, meaning that you don't have to pre-load those samples (or part of them) into a volatile memory when the keyboard boots up in order to be ready to be played. With FlashPlay the samples are just there ready to be used directly from the Flash memory.

Kurzweil Forte, Forte SE, SP6, CUP 310/320 all use FlashPlay technology.

Whether a particular product allows or not user samples to be loaded is a sample memory management/availability/product-specs/project-resources/etc. issue that is independent of the technology per-se.

Regards,
Fran
Yes, I work at Kurzweil but the opinions here are just mine.

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#2874391 - 08/22/17 07:16 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: hipogrito]
johnchop Offline
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Hi Fran.

Yes, exactly, lots of memory and ROM-like performance at significant cost savings, which is indeed a tremendous innovation in this product space. If that captures a buyer's attention as well, great!

Originally Posted By: hipogrito

Whether a particular product allows or not user samples to be loaded is a sample memory management/availability/product-specs/project-resources/etc. issue that is independent of the technology per-se.


Understood, and this addresses my question.

A future product with some flavor of "pluggable sample library" (a la Nord) would be amazing, e.g. ditching the crotales, harpsichord, and Mk I Rhodes and adding an upright. However, I appreciate the technical and support challenges of doing so, such as linking tons of objects properly and ensuring users don't **** up their keyboard.

For my purposes, sound and feature-wise, the SP6 should be able to succeed my PC3 nicely, and shave off 10 pounds of carry weight in the process. Can't wait to get my hands on one!

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#2874410 - 08/22/17 08:42 AM Re: Kurzweil SP6 [Re: johnchop]
Stokely Offline
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Will this be using the same keybed as the older SPs? I am not a big fan of those, they feel a bit sluggish to me.

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