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#2873521 - 08/17/17 09:16 AM White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans.
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Just glanced at a friend's facebook page to see a racist rant by a semi-well-known nationally, locally-based white blues guitarist. Not a surprise... I pretty much take it for granted here that if a white guy plays the blues you'll hear racist comments come out of their mouths in private, which is why I avoid the local blues scene unless it's the genuine old African American guys in a club people from the suburbs are scared to go near.

It's just offensive to me to see these guys gladhanding with the greats in photo ops or jamming with them onstage if they get the chance. But Lee Atwater loved the blues, while doing his best in his day job to make sure there was material for it on the part of African Americans. A sad situation.

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#2873529 - 08/17/17 09:45 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Loc: Near Phoenix Az
I got no time for racists, they are idiots, or at least people who have bought into idiotic ideas. We are all African descended according to the scientists. So what is there to be prejudiced about?
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#2873592 - 08/17/17 03:51 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
Fred_C Offline
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Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2027
Loc: PA
This has not been my experience. The white blues players I've known have played the music with great respect and reverence for the genre. I have never heard any of them make disparaging remarks about black people.

As I've mentioned many times on this forum, I had the good fortune to study the Blues with the great Philadelphia Jerry Ricks who was a black man. I am forever indebted to his memory for teaching me. RIP, Jerry.
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#2873632 - 08/17/17 11:03 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9991
Loc: Northern California
+1 Fred, this calls to mind Johnny Winter and Eric Clapton's close relationship, great admiration and friendship with BB King. I too think white blues players revere all of the black blues players that came before them. The Rolling Stones admired Buddy Guy and put him in their Shine a Light movie. The Animals were enamored with Bo Diddley. I'm sure there are a lot more we could name. I dig John Lee Hooker as one of the early blues icons... cool
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#2873650 - 08/18/17 03:48 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I'm dismayed by P90's comment, "I pretty much take it for granted that if a white guy plays the blues you'll hear racist comments come out of their mouths...."

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that many white ROCKERS may have done so, but the white BLUES players I know of always gave respectful props. I wish P90 would have given up the NAME of that clown so I could go through my collection to make sure I don't have anything of his, or if I do, get rid of it or maybe put it in the kitchen to use as a trivet.

BTW Larry---The Stones, claiming him to be a major influence and their cover of "Little Red Rooster" getting wide acclaim, brought HOWLIN' WOLF on TV's "Shindig" with them in '65. I remember seeing that show and Wolf TORE IT UP!

How ANYONE can like Blues, Rock'n'Roll or Jazz and still be racist is beyond my comprehension. But I have to disagree with DBM about racists being idiots. They aren't SMART ENOUGH to be that stupid! wink
Whitefang
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#2873687 - 08/18/17 06:47 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
While I appreciate the sentiment...

If we actually followed through and rid ourselves of all things created by people with reprehensible qualities & beliefs, we'd soon find ourselves with only a handful of possessions.

Even just sticking to music, you'd be hard pressed to find a recording that didn't feature participation by less-than-angelic people.
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#2873702 - 08/18/17 08:29 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: whitefang
I'm dismayed by P90's comment, "I pretty much take it for granted that if a white guy plays the blues you'll hear racist comments come out of their mouths...."
Whitefang


You left out the key word: "here." In my locale, it's the rule... in fact, I quit a local musicians group on facebook partly because someone posted a vid of a hip hop version of "Boogie Chilen" they thought was cool and most members launched into "I hate what 'those people' do to 'our music!'" (The other reason was one jackass posted racist jokes every day and they wouldn't ban him... of course, he leads a 50s and 60s R&B covers band).

But this is a racist place. David Duke almost got elected Governor, here. When they integrated the schools (in the 1980s, after putting it off until it got to the point of Federal intervention) whites left town to move to places with different schools systems... parts of town keep trying to secede to have their own school systems (and get away from the black majority gaining political power, now). The Klan has never been a hidden presence. I stay out of the rural areas and keep to the cosmopolitan area in the shadow of the University, where I was fortunate enough to grow up, but you guys wouldn't believe things here, probably.

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#2873706 - 08/18/17 08:33 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: whitefang
How ANYONE can like Blues, Rock'n'Roll or Jazz and still be racist is beyond my comprehension.


My point, exactly.

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#2873711 - 08/18/17 08:42 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
While I appreciate the sentiment...

If we actually followed through and rid ourselves of all things created by people with reprehensible qualities & beliefs, we'd soon find ourselves with only a handful of possessions.

Even just sticking to music, you'd be hard pressed to find a recording that didn't feature participation by less-than-angelic people.


I can certainly separate the music from the musicmaker (I crank up the radio when "Free-For-All" or "Cat Scratch Fever" come on...) but when you're appropriating a musical form from people you're disparaging... bugs me.

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#2873713 - 08/18/17 08:49 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
It bugs me too.

But I shudder to think what my music collection would look like if I eliminated everything created by bigots, pedophiles, robbers, murderers, drug dealers, perpetrators of domestic violence, etc.

(FWIW, I'd have ditched that FB group, too.)


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/18/17 08:55 AM)
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#2873741 - 08/18/17 10:55 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
As much as I miss family and friends, and sometimes I get sick of Asia`s `dictatorships in Disney costumes` crap, it`s still far preferable to the kind of BS the U.S. cranks out. If it wasn`t for racism I might have been born on a farm in the middle of rural Tennesee-frankly a thought that still makes me shudder. My dad was forced to move North after he asked a simple question about voter registration. Don`t even get me started.

That said, I play rock guitar. I sing songs by singers who are not only not Black, but often aren`t even guys. You have seen nothing at all until you`ve seen a bunch of Japanese guys freestyling around a huge boombox. They are probably totally unaware of the history-that`s fine. I can forgive ignorance-I disagree with the courts. They say it`s no excuse-no, actually it`s the ONLY plausible excuse. Racism is willful ignorance-that, is not even close to an excuse.


Edited by skipclone 1 (08/18/17 11:06 AM)
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#2873769 - 08/18/17 01:01 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Quote:
If it wasn`t for racism I might have been born on a farm in the middle of rural Tennesee-frankly a thought that still makes me shudder. My dad was forced to move North after he asked a simple question about voter registration.


OTOH, if it wasn't for racism, that farm in rural Tennessee might have been an awesome place to call home.

I mean, probably NOT, but still...;)
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2873783 - 08/18/17 02:55 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: p90jr
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
While I appreciate the sentiment...

If we actually followed through and rid ourselves of all things created by people with reprehensible qualities & beliefs, we'd soon find ourselves with only a handful of possessions.

Even just sticking to music, you'd be hard pressed to find a recording that didn't feature participation by less-than-angelic people.


I can certainly separate the music from the musicmaker (I crank up the radio when "Free-For-All" or "Cat Scratch Fever" come on...) but when you're appropriating a musical form from people you're disparaging... bugs me.


There's a similar sentiment on the TCM forum I'm in. Separating the actor/actress/director etc. from their perfomances on film. same basic principle in music. But yeah, when it comes to say, someone making a very lucrative living playing the music brought to us by the people the guy is disparaging IS going too far. And different than Frank, Ted or others putting down certain individuals or a segment of society's idealologies.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/18/17 02:56 PM)
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#2873850 - 08/18/17 09:13 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Quote:
If it wasn`t for racism I might have been born on a farm in the middle of rural Tennesee-frankly a thought that still makes me shudder. My dad was forced to move North after he asked a simple question about voter registration.


OTOH, if it wasn't for racism, that farm in rural Tennessee might have been an awesome place to call home.

I mean, probably NOT, but still...;)


As a seasonal home when blizzards are going on up North maybe...not in a place with major segregation issues. I don`t care how awesome it might have been.
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#2873852 - 08/18/17 09:18 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9991
Loc: Northern California
Thinking back on it, I only got to play with one black guy back in '68. I was a senior in High School and there was a wine and beer bar that my band buddies and I would hang out at. The two owners played guitars and entertained the local crowd and would let us sit in. They also served us brown beer in a coke glass knowing we weren't exactly 21 LOL! Anyway my drummer and I stopped in after Karate practice for a quick beer sans equipment. The two owners weren't playing that night due to an amp problem. So I asked if I could play a few tunes on an old piano sitting against a wall. They said sure if you can play it as good as you play that guitar! I said nope, I can only play a boogie in the key of C, but I'll give her hell...

So I went over and played the boogie and a few chords and what little blues runs I could do. An old black man sitting at the bar came over and took out his harp and started playing some jump blues with me. Sounded pretty good so I started signing all the old Elvis revamped R&B tunes I knew as 50's R&R songs, but he knew them from the 40's. We ran through every song I could think of and the crowd loved us and never got tired of that single key and my 3 chords.

So, [long story I know, but I'll keep it short] We stayed late and my new found friend needed a ride home. My drummer and I poured him behind the seats of my Sunbeam Alpine and I drove him to his apartment. We got him out and he was a little wobbly, so I helped him to the door and started to help him up the stairs. He stopped me and said we were good pals but there are some dudes inside that wouldn't like a young white kid roaming the halls LOL! I took his advice and from that point on, we met at the bar and continued to play together. But, I started bringing my guitar so we could play in more than one Key! Anyway, that's the only black blues musician I ever got to play with and I will always remember how great he made us sound... cool
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#2873858 - 08/18/17 09:30 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
I mentioned that I had a reunion recently with the singer on one of my songs. We were walking in Yokohama and talking about the racial diversiy in Rotterdam where she lives, and other cities in Europe. I told her that, there are still some places in America where I could be asking for trouble by simply walking down the street with a blond girl from Holland. She had trouble even imagining it-unfortunate but true.
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#2873867 - 08/19/17 04:29 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Racism isn't only about blind, ignorant hatred, but also making assumptions. For instance, my ex's Dad, who claimed not to hate "colored" people(as he always put it), but believed all the crap that wasn't true about them. Like, they all live on a diet of chittlin's and carp. They brush their teeth with wood ash to make them so white. They only smoked menthol cigarettes. Nonsense like that.

The same assumptions are made about African-Americans when it comes to music as well. Like none of them LIKE Rock'n'Roll( yep. I knew some who believed that) and a story of mine a bit similar in scope to yours, if not technically.....

Talking with a black guy I worked with and in telling him I played guitar, he invited me to jam with a band he and his brother had. They mostly just jammed in his basement, but I went and jammed anyway. Turned out they PREFERRED Rock'n'Roll over most of the MOTOWN that people ASSUMED would be all they'd play. First tune we jammed on was Jeff Beck's "Goin' Down". The only MOTOWN tune we did was RARE EARTH's version of "Get Ready" grin Then we did a bunch of blues tunes, and those guys were GOOD!

That was in '73, and you'll like this, Larry....they claimed their favorite band was THE EAGLES! So, there's ONE assumption tossed on the trash heap! (and we did "Take It Easy" too. wink )
Whitefang
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#2873900 - 08/19/17 07:57 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9991
Loc: Northern California
The only black music that I do not like is Rap and/or Hip Hop. I really can't tell you what the difference is as I do not listen to it. It has found it's way into new country music which is white music that I do not like with or without the rap injection LOL! I love old country and country rock, but the new cowboys and cowgirls can have the new country crap...One of the things I love about The Stones and The Eagles is the country influence in their classic rock! I'm glad to hear that the black guys that you hung with like the Eagles.

Elvis was a guy that bridged the gap and got chastised for playing those old black R&B hits from the mid 40's revamped to invent R&R like That's Alright Mama, his 1st recorded tune. (Along with that hillbilly favorite Blue Moon of Kentucky on the flip side LOL!). The old white farmers didn't like many of the greats like Chuck Berry and Little Richard because their daughters were loving them too! (along with the rest of us!). Music brings us all together as we both love the same things and the vibes that go with it. That's why I understand when a lot of people like Rap or New Country, that it doesn't matter if I like it or not...I just listen and play what I like and let the others do their thing(s). cool


Edited by Larryz (08/19/17 07:58 AM)
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#2873903 - 08/19/17 08:27 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5918
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
P90, yer profile doesn't reveal where yer "her" is. Can ya tell us ?
That won't reveal a special pocket of backwardness, of course b/c this kinda crap's all over & coming back out in the open more of late.

As far as the general subject, let's start w/ the fact that there's only a single race of humans here on Earth[*], so racism isn't just some benighted thinking but an irrational denial of the truth, flavored w/ paranoia abt being outdone by others.

It is more widespread than many may realize (or want to realize).
The famous story abt J Lee Lewis (who's career is largely based on the influence of R&B) vs. Chuck Berry over who'd follow the other as headliner at a concert is an example, as are things such as Elvis Costello's still-bewildering decision to insult some American musicians by calling Ray Charles a "blind ignorant N" ( thanks, Bonnie Bramlett, for putting him in his place, that is, lyin' on the floor w/ a bloody lip ).
It's said that when Monterrey Pop was being set up, a "well-known member of the folk community" who'd spent a lotta time in Greenwich Village, saw Jimi Hendrix as a suggested performer but protested that he was nothing but a modern day minstrel show.

There's also a kinda odd racism that crops up often---even here from at least one member, maybe more---whereby ppl claiming to like blues maintaining that early blues masters just played what was "natural" & didn't/couldn't understand what they were doing as musicians or creators, or the types who only like bands like Cream or the Stones but not the cats who set the standards in the 1st place.

What to do ?
I'm not sure, except I know 3 things: (1) while violence in self-defense may be necessary, it mostly keeps the feuding idiocy going; (2) calling out falseness is important, sunlight being the best disinfectant & all; (3) there are some who simply will not alter their thinking, no matter how obviously wrong, until something happens inside them.

I suggest everyone with an interest in how music has & can play a role in changing things read a book= MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.
While a work of fiction (sorta) it suggest how the spread of certain forms of "outsider" popular music in the USA did as much or more to change society simply by spreading it as a sorta contagion that did it's magic in a way bypassing arguments & convincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAaDEpaOOKw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh4xXxr0LWo


------------------
[*] It's worth noting that the way there got to be just a single genetic group of ppl involved the internecine warfare & slaughter between early hominid groups.
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#2873922 - 08/19/17 12:47 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
As I recall, P90 lives in Louisiana. New Orleans, if memory serves.

NOLA's history with racism is pretty unusual. Complex.
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

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http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2873948 - 08/19/17 03:20 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
d's clip entries makes me wonder.....

Was it BLACK musicians who first referred to the musical style as "Boogie-Woogie"? Or was it because black musicians largely developed and played it that WHITE people gave it that moniker? Seeing as how over many years the word "boogie" was(and still is to some) used as a racial slur? "Chicken or Egg" type of query.
Whitefang
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#2874036 - 08/20/17 11:38 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5918
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
As I recall, P90 lives in Louisiana. New Orleans, if memory serves.

NOLA's history with racism is pretty unusual. Complex.


Thanks.
Yer right abt NO.
Although it illustrates the truth abt what's called racism, that it's actually skin-color & culture prejudice.
There, as there is to some degree in other places, there is (or was) a lotta hype placed on exact shade of skin + on whether one was an original upper crust Creole or not, along w/ other foolishness.

[BTW, I skip the La part b/c, what ? we gotta distinguish it from all the other NOrleanses ? laugh ]
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#2874057 - 08/20/17 01:37 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: d

BTW, I skip the La part b/c, what ? we gotta distinguish it from all the other NOrleanses ? laugh


Actually, yes!

Besides being nicer to look at (NO vs NOLA) and sounding cool, it helps distinguish between the city and the many things it shares its name with, like:

New Orleans- the first steamboat in the central United States
The USS New Orleans- four different warships of the U.S. Navy
New Orleans- a residential skyscraper in Rotterdam, Netherlands
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2874144 - 08/21/17 05:04 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Yeah, d...

Both white AND African-American cultures in this country carried that crap out beyond just skin color. Polish-Americans hating Irish-Americans, and them hating Italian-Americans and THEM not liking German-Americans.....and on and on

And DARKER skinned African-Americans looking down on "high-yellow" and vice-versa. THAT'S all too much like WORK for me. It seems easier to me just to go on about my business and live and let live.

And DANNY----That all sounds like too much of a STRETCH to me....

NO v NOLA? But maybe it's because I don't text, or even SPEAK "text", preferring to talk like a grown-up is probably why I find that a non-issue. wink
Whitefang
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#2874448 - 08/22/17 11:04 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
As I recall, P90 lives in Louisiana. New Orleans, if memory serves.

NOLA's history with racism is pretty unusual. Complex.


85 miles away in Baton Rouge, Louisiana... the State Capital, "part college town and state government hub" that leans more Liberal and Cosmopolitan, part "industrial cowtown" that generally leans the other way. I'm out on the town in New Orleans, playing or taking in shows, more than most of the people I know who live there, though. My dad was a New Orleans guy, but was happy to be here instead because the overall standard of living was much better (probably still is) and his multiracial background wasn't a barrier socially or professionally... people just thought he was a talented, smart, well-spoken guy.

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#2874495 - 08/22/17 02:30 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
A lady I used to work with(African-American) transferred to a plant down in Baton Rouge back in '95. Last I heard about her, she was pretty happy living and working down there. Anyway....

P90, one of my favorite singer/songwriters supposedly hails from New Orleans. CHRIS SMITHER. I'm assuming you're pretty familiar with him. But anyway, a lot of talent DOES seem to come out of there.

Like.....YOU for instance! wink
Whitefang
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#2875066 - 08/24/17 10:16 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
20k Club

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 24507
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Been BUSY. Stoppin' by this thread, all I wanna say is that

I

LOATH

RACISM.
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#2875068 - 08/24/17 10:27 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
Hear hear!
_________________________
Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

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#2875091 - 08/25/17 04:33 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
Eric Iverson Online   content
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Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 5227
Loc: Jackson Heights, NY
I just participated in a heated office discussion about racism, as a matter of fact.....

It's a very sticky subject - lots of blame to go around, of course. Sometimes unfairly assigned.... but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, LOL.

My personal experience with musicians is that most of the time those of us who love to play hang out with our "birds of a feather", so to speak, and don't let race hang us up too much - we're more concerned with learning new tunes and new licks, and creating something worthwhile. Give the customer his money's worth....

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#2875096 - 08/25/17 04:43 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Eric Iverson]
skipclone 1 Offline
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I know this is going to get within beeping distance of political-and I wasn`t there for the discussion. But there is a long history of legitimate, peaceful protests being hijacked by agent-provocatuers-for the younger crowd, look up cointelpro. Personally, I never heard of antifa before the big news story, and I`m not a news idiot. I think it`s important to step back a bit-counterprotests have been going on a long time, without blowing up like the recent one.
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#2875153 - 08/25/17 07:36 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
Larryz Offline
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I know music bridges the gap between the races, at least it has for me. Most musicians appreciate each other and get along just fine. I enjoy listening to all kinds of music from different areas of the US and other parts of the world as well. cool
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#2875190 - 08/25/17 10:38 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Absolutely, and other areas of the arts have the same quality. My friend is from Australia, his wife is Japanese, he studies Wing Chun kungfu and she is a hula dancer.
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#2875238 - 08/25/17 02:49 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
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Thanks to my wife and her family, I've been exposed to far better Mariachi music thean I would have ordinarily. At least compared to what I've been privy to hear beforehand.

Never a wedding(except ours) went by without an excellent Mariachi band contributing to the festivities.

And growing up, I've been exposed to plenty Polish music, and growing up in close proximity to Detroit, lots of local jazz and R&B. Then came Motown and a further appreciation for the contributions Black artists made to music.

Plus my stepfather being Hungarian, I learned what Czardas music was and the limitless possibilities of the zither.

But I always disliked the term "world music" because I've always considered ALL music to be worldwide. There's just different cultural styles and distinct instrumentation, but that shouldn't imply limits and/or seperations.
Whitefang
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#2875257 - 08/25/17 04:17 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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It maybe a little OT, but I loved Linda Ronstadt during her Mariachi days! Still do. love

One of my buds hired a full Mariachi band (like about 10 players or so) for his daughter's wedding reception...what a gas! cool


Edited by Larryz (08/25/17 04:23 PM)
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#2875265 - 08/25/17 05:47 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
But I always disliked the term "world music" because I've always considered ALL music to be worldwide. There's just different cultural styles and distinct instrumentation, but that shouldn't imply limits and/or seperations.
Whitefang


Those of us in the "world music" world just call it "folk music."
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#2875267 - 08/25/17 05:50 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
It maybe a little OT, but I loved Linda Ronstadt during her Mariachi days! Still do. love
One of my buds hired a full Mariachi band (like about 10 players or so) for his daughter's wedding reception...what a gas! cool


Here in LA there's a lot of work for Mariachis. At least once a year some neighbor of mine hosts a Quinceañera, & there's always a Mariachi band playing late into the night within earshot for those. It's a wonderful music tradition. I've worked with a lot of those bands, both recording & mixing live.
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#2875291 - 08/25/17 11:20 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Scott Fraser]
skipclone 1 Offline
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There are several Mexican culture festivals here during the summer, with excellent music and dance performances. Unfortunately, this being Japan, the food kept getting blander and blander. Finally my friends and I got fed up (so to speak), we don`t go anymore.
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#2875316 - 08/26/17 05:24 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
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Yeah, as a wedding photographer I've also done a few Quinceaneras, which is like shooting the largest "wedding" party ever, and Mariachis were always there too. A unique and fascinating musical form. And I've long been fascinated with that big GUITARRRON they use. That 5-string GUITARRA de golpe is interesting too.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/26/17 05:26 AM)
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#2875323 - 08/26/17 07:21 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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The Mariachi dancers that go with the music are fantastic too. Many traditional dance steps and costumes. I watched some YT clips of the Quinceaneras to see what you guys were talking about. The mariachis have some provocative traditional dance steps that they do around the 15 year old girl. They get some oooh's from the audience...

The guys on the trumpets really impress me as they add so much to the music while not blasting the acoustic instruments out of the water. They always remind me of the Tijuana brass for some reason. cool


Edited by Larryz (08/26/17 07:23 AM)
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#2875431 - 08/26/17 11:19 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Here`s one from the festival a few years back:
https://goo.gl/photos/nvo7iqSF2imX1NgS8
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#2875441 - 08/27/17 04:44 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
whitefang Offline
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Not all the ones I've beento had all those dancers and added attractions, but there's ALWAYS a good time to be had anyway.

And note that Mariachi doesn't follow what we "whettoes" think of as "traditional" rhythm patterns in both the music AND the vocals. wink

My wife once told me that she and her sisters took lessons in those dances and have danced at a few quinceanera's when they were little girls. I've seen old B&W photos of them and have to say they were "cuties"! wink
Whitefang
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#2875684 - 08/28/17 04:28 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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As we get further from the point, I'd like to wheel back & ask who was the original schmuck in question here, the one that provoked the outrage ?
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#2875717 - 08/29/17 04:06 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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That was P90jr, who brought up the sad fact that there ARE some white blues and R'n'R artists who don't mind raking in the bucks playing African-American based music while privately( and not so privately) venting bigoted epithets.
Whitefang
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#2875772 - 08/29/17 09:22 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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I think he was asking who the guitarist was, whose ID has not yet been revealed.

I think I know who it is, but not having p90jr's direct experience- which prompted the thread- I'm not going to engage in open speculation.
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#2875829 - 08/29/17 02:16 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
d Offline
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Hey, DanA, thanks for attempting to clue the clueless in.

BTW, got the perpetrator's name from P90 but he/it seems to be a local hero, nobody in the national leagues.
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#2875907 - 08/30/17 05:15 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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I just re-read the OP and it's clear he's venting about ALL white bluesmen who badmouth African-Americans. Or white musicians that do so. Especially in genres that exist due to a lot of African-American influence.
Whitefang
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#2876164 - 08/31/17 01:01 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
p90jr Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
I just re-read the OP and it's clear he's venting about ALL white bluesmen who badmouth African-Americans. Or white musicians that do so. Especially in genres that exist due to a lot of African-American influence.
Whitefang


Yeah... is that off?

I badmouth white people a lot, but that's more nuanced. (joke)

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#2876167 - 08/31/17 01:21 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
DocPate Offline
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Bad topic IMHO. There's too much "us" and "them" going on in the world today. I totally agree with Fred: All musicians I've come in contact with over my 80+ years have been highly respectful of their peers. I can't recall a time when anyone referred to another as it relates to their ethnicity.

Now, I'll share a humorous story (at least I thought it was). I was sitting at a catfish shack just outside of Holly Springs MS back in the late 60s. There was some great music coming from the backporch. I finished my lunch and wandered out back to find R. L. Burnside jamming with a couple of local boys. When they finished their song (Asspocket full of whiskey) and I was clapping, he smiled and looked over to me and ask, "what is that you're drinking?" I told him I was drinking a bloody mary to which he walked over, pulled a pint of whiskey from his back pocket poured a good slug into my glass and commented, "Now white boy, that's how you drink a bloody muthafucker.


Edited by DocPate (08/31/17 01:22 PM)

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#2876182 - 08/31/17 02:57 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: DocPate]
whitefang Offline
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Well, not related to music, I've always noticed there were differences in what I've noticed how many black people were and with how many whites in my neighborhood and family said they were like.

Many over the years said they were lazy no 'counts that didn't want to work. But I noticed that when I hired in to GM, most of the workers in the Cadillac plant I was at were black. And working harder than I ever cared to.

And most of my favorite music and music artists were black.

There was Sidney Poitier in the movies and Ruby Dee too. And Rex Ingram.

I never really understood all that racial antipathy.
Whitefang
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#2876693 - 09/02/17 08:26 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Delta Offline
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Well, I've been avoiding this thread because as Cavean so eloquently stated "I loath racism." Now that that I've jumped into and read all of it, I have to say that I'm proud to be a part of this forum. I grew up in Northern Ontario, Canada and didn't see a black person in real life until I was 5 in 1961. We had 3 channels of TV, 2 Canadian, CBC Toronto, CTV Thunder Bay and 1 American, CBS out of Marquette, Michigan. I grew up in "The Great White North" in more ways than one. Of course we watched black people on TV, the tremendous athletes, musicians, entertainers. The riots and MLK came a little later. When I was 12 our family drove down for the first time to visit relatives in Farmington, Michigan, just outside of Detroit. This was in the summer 1968 right after the Detroit riots. Instead of taking us across the Ambassador Bridge from Windsor, Ontario over the Detroit River which would have taken us over and past downtown Detroit, my dad took us through the tunnel which emptied into the downtown core of Detroit. My first vision of America was a torn down, burnt up hole, something out WW2. My dad did this intentionally, to give the 3 of us kids a reality lesson. At the same time, Gordon Lightfoot's "Black Day in July" was on the radio airwaves. Our relatives in Farmington were very racist, some of it no doubt reignited by the recent events. My American wife of almost 35 years was born in Joliette, Illinois. We know what happened there. My dad stressed to us that this was the result of what Gordy sang in the song "when all is out of reach". He argued with my American uncle a few times regarding the racial line. We learned a lot from that experience. Racism has no place anywhere, and it's so sad to see it still exists.
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#2876742 - 09/03/17 04:05 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Delta]
whitefang Offline
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Well Delta, the riot only tore up one neighborhood of the city, not all of it. But it tore up an even bigger section of the city's soul. And it did bring about some significant changes. The main drags through the riot's epicenter were renamed after Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King. Five years after your visit Detroit elected it's first black mayor. Eventually the city council changed from a bunch of old white guys to a black majority, as well as the city workers, fire department and police force. And also eventually, celebrated singer MARTHA REEVES(of the Vandellas) became a councilwoman.

The city still has enough problems to deal with, but now the racism has expanded to include Latinos and Arabs as well. But that racism is felt more outside the city than within. So I guess that is a level of progress. Plus, musically, we've had MOTOWN here since before you saw your first "real life" black person. wink
Whitefang
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#2876859 - 09/03/17 12:32 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
picker Offline
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"I pretty much take it for granted that if a white guy plays the blues you'll hear racist comments come out of their mouths...."

Isn't this the dictionary definition of prejudice?
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#2877266 - 09/05/17 02:35 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: picker]
p90jr Offline
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Originally Posted By: picker
"I pretty much take it for granted that if a white guy plays the blues you'll hear racist comments come out of their mouths...."

Isn't this the dictionary definition of prejudice?


Yep... and I should've put "here" in that sentence, as I think explained earlier.

And as local discussions with people who saw the post have pointed out, it is a certain type of person that we know locally from certain areas that we expect it from.

Not baby boomer-age, because - as one guy put it - "we took beatings from the crew cut 'necks around here ourselves for liking 'black people things' back then." There's empathy that came from having to dig into stuff back then.

Younger guys than that... who have grown up with an internet pipeline of everything into their rooms (and can I mention again that I think the internet - as wonderful as it is in the right hands - is making some warped human beings) and don't have "human" connections to much at all.

But with this, let this thread die.

Proud to be a member of this place, too.

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#2877272 - 09/05/17 02:41 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
whitefang Offline
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And we're glad to have ya here too. smile
Whitefang
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#2878247 - 09/10/17 09:35 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
p90jr Offline
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He's at it again... I'm biting my tongue off...

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#2878270 - 09/10/17 01:58 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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If you enjoy his music, enjoy it. If not, then don't. But at some point, you either have to stop torturing your own conscience dealing with his hypocrisy by ignoring press about his personal views or taking a stand against it.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (09/10/17 01:59 PM)
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#2878273 - 09/10/17 02:22 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
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Then also as was mentioned before, and as Danny just pointed out, if you enjoy his music, let it go at that. I mean,

There's a LOT of Frank Zappa's viewpoints I strongly disagreed with, but I never stopped liking the music. But on the other hand, at no time did he seem to be a hypocrite.
Whitefang
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#2878418 - 09/11/17 11:57 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
DocPate Offline
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Just curious. Why do people associate rural Tennessee with rednecks and racism? I grew up in middle Tennessee on a farm and

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#2878421 - 09/11/17 12:10 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: DocPate]
A String Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
Just curious. Why do people associate rural Tennessee with rednecks and racism? I grew up in middle Tennessee on a farm and


Blame Movies and TV shows.
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#2878441 - 09/11/17 01:33 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: A String]
DocPate Offline
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Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: A String
Originally Posted By: DocPate
Just curious. Why do people associate rural Tennessee with rednecks and racism? I grew up in middle Tennessee on a farm and


Blame Movies and TV shows.

I know. Stereotyping is just another form of bias. All bad

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#2878452 - 09/11/17 02:40 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: A String]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: A String
Originally Posted By: DocPate
Just curious. Why do people associate rural Tennessee with rednecks and racism? I grew up in middle Tennessee on a farm and


Blame Movies and TV shows.


And what, Doc?

And you can't blame it all on TV and movies. I've worked in a GM plant that had plenty transplanted Southerners from Tenn. KY. and other states that had strong racist attitudes. But, sure, not everyone from Southland did. And plenty whites in the neighborhood I grew up in that WEREN'T from the South had them too. Odd thing.....

Of course, me and my brother grew up in the same house, raised(of course) by the same people, who never to my recollection ever uttered any racist nonsense. Yet, my brother wound up for YEARS being a "militant" racist, while I never was. In fact, man of my "friends" used to razz me because I insisted, when doing "eeny, meeny, miney, moe" on sayng "Catch a TIGER by the toe." wink
Whitefang PS: BTW...there was a guy here in the forum early on in my membership that insisted I WAS a racist due to my choosing the Soupy sales puppet character WHITEFANG'S name for my "handle" instead of the other one, named BLACKTOOTH. crazy


Edited by whitefang (09/11/17 02:41 PM)
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#2880490 - 09/20/17 03:19 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Stereotypes often (not always) have some basis.
Skin color prejudice [*] is rampant in many areas, not just rural, but it does tend to be more obvious there.

--------------------------------------
[*] A term that I employ b/c there is no different human race on which to base "racism".
Calling it what it is makes the idiocy of it more obvious.
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#2880562 - Yesterday at 04:19 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
Eric Iverson Online   content
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I sort of believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and things like that, and that we are all 100% human and yet unique individuals.... but being human, I have my prejudices and tribal loyalties and all that.
If I acknowledge as much, I can hope to look beyond people's outward appearance and not leap to conclusions about people I don't even know.
But it's not always EASY....

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#2880567 - Yesterday at 04:47 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Eric Iverson]
whitefang Offline
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If you asked any bigot WHY he hates blacks, or whichever "color" his reply will most likely be based on unsubstantiated stereotype. But mostly it boils down to beause they don't "act white". It's very similar to those stupid "conservative vs. liberal" feuds.

I'd like to address d's second part of his post up there, "there is no different human race" part----

I remember back in the late '60's cartoonist AL CAPP('Li'l Abner") was at the time an outspoken social critic that toured college campuses giving lectures sometimes raising the ire of college students with some of his commentary. Anyway....

He was on Johnny Carson's "Tonight" show one night, and Carson had handed out little cards to the audience to put down questions some might have for Capp. One question he read was "What is your opinion on interracial marriages?"

Capp's reply was, "Interracial marriages? I don't know of any. The only marriages I'M familiar with involve members of the HUMAN race." wink

So, d's calling it "skin color prejudice" IS more on the money, and actually no less stupid than bigotry or "racism" to begin with.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (Yesterday at 04:49 AM)
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#2880603 - Yesterday at 07:21 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
Fred_C Offline
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I am ashamed to admit that my mother was a racist. One day I was listening to a recording and she said to me, "Fred, the only music you listen to and play is by drunken, old, black men." I remained silent because I could not refute the statement. It was true. They were old. They were black. They were often drunk. I loved their music.
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#2880614 - Yesterday at 07:56 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Fred_C]
d Offline
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Fred, that was yer mom.
She was led to think one way but may've at some time came to think differently, as you , me & others have.

While it's important to remember what various ppl have done, it's also important to realize that we ( & even , ugh, "them") can change.
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#2880616 - Yesterday at 07:59 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Fred_C]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Well, conservatives and liberals often have actual reasons for disliking each other, or at least their politics and methods.

Racists- at least the ones who weren't raised in a household of hate- usually have one or more catalyzing event that drove them to their bigotry.

As for being embarrassed by the racists in our families, well...it can happen in any family. Even black ones- don't let anyone tell you differently.

My fraternal aunt has a history as being a militant black. Not exactly Black Panthers, but enough so that she has often espoused a hatred of whites. However, my friends seem to have softened that edge, particularly the one who cared for her cat for a while when she could not.

And I worked very, very hard with a couple of my cousins who were headed down a path of antisemitism and hatred of Asians back in the 1990s. Educating them on reality helped a lot: that they were descended from Jews on their mothers' side had never been explained to them. Pointing out the importance of Asians to the history of NOLA and the black community helped too.


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (Yesterday at 08:17 AM)
Edit Reason: Correcting an AutoCorrect
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My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2880621 - Yesterday at 08:11 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
Fred_C Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2027
Loc: PA
@d,

Unfortunately, she never changed. She died in 1980 and went to her grave as a racist.

I understand that the vast majority of white people of her generation were vehemently racist and their hatred was basically cultural. My father, although far from being "enlightened" did not spew hatred like my mother.
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#2880629 - Yesterday at 08:38 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Fred_C]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5918
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Here's a contrast.
My mum was born in late 1920s Appalachia.
She grew up in an environment full of hate against others, often inculcated, as one of our Bob's said, as pawns in the game.

None of her sisters or brothers grew out of that.
When my maternal GMa, who was my 1st slide gtr teacher, saw Rahsaan Kirk & Mingus on the Sullivan show in 1960s she was speechlessly aghast.
To her the Rolling Stones, even the Beatles , sounded like "screaming nigs"---incidentally the same term used by a drummer I auditioned in 1979 when confronted w/ some PFunk tunes.

My mum, however, while she never fought her family on such things, made sure my sister & I knew better.
At one point her 2 fave recordings were Aretha Franklin's "House that Jack Built" & cover of "Bridge Over Troubled Water".

I've mentioned this before but, to reiterate, the best tool we have before us for changing ppl's hearts is music.

Please, all who care abt this stuff, find the book MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.
It delineates how music, more than anything else in the 20th C, changed culture in the USA &, thence, around the world....though the job's not done.
Plus it's a fun read & very creative twist on standard narrative tech.
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#2880646 - Yesterday at 09:50 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
Scott Fraser Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4968
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: d
Please, all who care abt this stuff, find the book MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed. It delineates how music, more than anything else in the 20th C, changed culture in the USA &, thence, around the world....though the job's not done.
Plus it's a fun read & very creative twist on standard narrative tech.


I feel the truly important triumph of roll & roll was that it signaled white youth's rejection of the previous generation's segregation. By embracing Black culture, 50's white youth laid the ground for the Civil Rights era of the 60's.
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#2880737 - Yesterday at 02:59 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Yes, I can understand the feeling when it's discovered that some people you long love and respected reveal they have attitudes you yourself have long before rejected.

Like the shock, disappointment and sick feeling I got when leaving a visit with my Grandfather( biodad's dad) just as the popular TV mini-series "The Holocaust" was coming on the TV. He turned and said, "Boy, you know, that Hitler had the right idea. Kill all those Jewish bastards." And when it was clear he wasn'tjoking, I said my goodnight and didn't see him again. until his funeral.
Whitefang
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#2880774 - Yesterday at 04:44 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Many years ago, right before he boarded a plane home, my grandfather told me I had to marry a black woman. I just shrugged it off. After moving away from NOLA, I don't know that I've lived in a city with more than 5% black population demographics. And because of who I am, where I live, and what I do, I don't interact with American blacks all that often. Africans, yes. South American and Caribbean blacks, yes. Those from the US of A? Not so much.

A lot of minority kids growing up in the USA hear something like that from their ancestors. Or sometimes from other friends and family, A good freind of mine had a tough time convincing her naturalized Chinese parents that the white guy she met in college in San Antonio would actually be a worthy son in law.

Just like the white nationalists/separatists/nationalists, there's a fear of cultural erasure resulting from assimilation and blending.

Me? I'm gumbo and proud of it,

And should I find a woman who is as fond of me as I am of her, her melanin count will be utterly irrelevant.
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2880837 - Today at 04:29 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
In some cases, it gets that bad in other area's,like Catholic families disapproving of their sons or daughters marrying outside of their FAITH, Or even ethnicity. Like Italian girls always encouraged to find themselves "A nice Italian boy" and like that with other "nationalities". And then some purposely avoid it, like none of my wife's sisters, and of course her too, married any Mexican men. In fact, according to my wife, it was growing up noticing how their friend's Mexican fathers constantly cheated on their Mexican mothers, plus their Father's strong sense of chauvinism, that repelled them against the idea of marrying a Mexican man.

And in spite of how some "traditionalists", either white or black feel, the "mixing" of the "races" goes on and is even increasing. It was a bit comically approached in the Warren Beatty movie "Bulworth" when the title character, a senator running for re-election, talking about the "issue" of interracial marriage and mixing and the big deal some peple make about race issues, saying, "We're all gonna keep f***king each other until we're all the same color anyway, so why make a big deal out of it now?" grin

As to "cultural erasure", well,I always thought "culture" was about HOW and WHAT people were and did, and not WHO they were.
Whitefang
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