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#2873521 - 08/17/17 09:16 AM White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans.
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Just glanced at a friend's facebook page to see a racist rant by a semi-well-known nationally, locally-based white blues guitarist. Not a surprise... I pretty much take it for granted here that if a white guy plays the blues you'll hear racist comments come out of their mouths in private, which is why I avoid the local blues scene unless it's the genuine old African American guys in a club people from the suburbs are scared to go near.

It's just offensive to me to see these guys gladhanding with the greats in photo ops or jamming with them onstage if they get the chance. But Lee Atwater loved the blues, while doing his best in his day job to make sure there was material for it on the part of African Americans. A sad situation.

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#2873529 - 08/17/17 09:45 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
desertbluesman Offline
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Loc: Near Phoenix Az
I got no time for racists, they are idiots, or at least people who have bought into idiotic ideas. We are all African descended according to the scientists. So what is there to be prejudiced about?
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#2873592 - 08/17/17 03:51 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
Fred_C Offline
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Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 2027
Loc: PA
This has not been my experience. The white blues players I've known have played the music with great respect and reverence for the genre. I have never heard any of them make disparaging remarks about black people.

As I've mentioned many times on this forum, I had the good fortune to study the Blues with the great Philadelphia Jerry Ricks who was a black man. I am forever indebted to his memory for teaching me. RIP, Jerry.
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#2873632 - 08/17/17 11:03 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Fred_C]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9991
Loc: Northern California
+1 Fred, this calls to mind Johnny Winter and Eric Clapton's close relationship, great admiration and friendship with BB King. I too think white blues players revere all of the black blues players that came before them. The Rolling Stones admired Buddy Guy and put him in their Shine a Light movie. The Animals were enamored with Bo Diddley. I'm sure there are a lot more we could name. I dig John Lee Hooker as one of the early blues icons... cool
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#2873650 - 08/18/17 03:48 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I'm dismayed by P90's comment, "I pretty much take it for granted that if a white guy plays the blues you'll hear racist comments come out of their mouths...."

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that many white ROCKERS may have done so, but the white BLUES players I know of always gave respectful props. I wish P90 would have given up the NAME of that clown so I could go through my collection to make sure I don't have anything of his, or if I do, get rid of it or maybe put it in the kitchen to use as a trivet.

BTW Larry---The Stones, claiming him to be a major influence and their cover of "Little Red Rooster" getting wide acclaim, brought HOWLIN' WOLF on TV's "Shindig" with them in '65. I remember seeing that show and Wolf TORE IT UP!

How ANYONE can like Blues, Rock'n'Roll or Jazz and still be racist is beyond my comprehension. But I have to disagree with DBM about racists being idiots. They aren't SMART ENOUGH to be that stupid! wink
Whitefang
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#2873687 - 08/18/17 06:47 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
While I appreciate the sentiment...

If we actually followed through and rid ourselves of all things created by people with reprehensible qualities & beliefs, we'd soon find ourselves with only a handful of possessions.

Even just sticking to music, you'd be hard pressed to find a recording that didn't feature participation by less-than-angelic people.
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#2873702 - 08/18/17 08:29 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: whitefang
I'm dismayed by P90's comment, "I pretty much take it for granted that if a white guy plays the blues you'll hear racist comments come out of their mouths...."
Whitefang


You left out the key word: "here." In my locale, it's the rule... in fact, I quit a local musicians group on facebook partly because someone posted a vid of a hip hop version of "Boogie Chilen" they thought was cool and most members launched into "I hate what 'those people' do to 'our music!'" (The other reason was one jackass posted racist jokes every day and they wouldn't ban him... of course, he leads a 50s and 60s R&B covers band).

But this is a racist place. David Duke almost got elected Governor, here. When they integrated the schools (in the 1980s, after putting it off until it got to the point of Federal intervention) whites left town to move to places with different schools systems... parts of town keep trying to secede to have their own school systems (and get away from the black majority gaining political power, now). The Klan has never been a hidden presence. I stay out of the rural areas and keep to the cosmopolitan area in the shadow of the University, where I was fortunate enough to grow up, but you guys wouldn't believe things here, probably.

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#2873706 - 08/18/17 08:33 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: whitefang
How ANYONE can like Blues, Rock'n'Roll or Jazz and still be racist is beyond my comprehension.


My point, exactly.

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#2873711 - 08/18/17 08:42 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
While I appreciate the sentiment...

If we actually followed through and rid ourselves of all things created by people with reprehensible qualities & beliefs, we'd soon find ourselves with only a handful of possessions.

Even just sticking to music, you'd be hard pressed to find a recording that didn't feature participation by less-than-angelic people.


I can certainly separate the music from the musicmaker (I crank up the radio when "Free-For-All" or "Cat Scratch Fever" come on...) but when you're appropriating a musical form from people you're disparaging... bugs me.

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#2873713 - 08/18/17 08:49 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
It bugs me too.

But I shudder to think what my music collection would look like if I eliminated everything created by bigots, pedophiles, robbers, murderers, drug dealers, perpetrators of domestic violence, etc.

(FWIW, I'd have ditched that FB group, too.)


Edited by Dannyalcatraz (08/18/17 08:55 AM)
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#2873741 - 08/18/17 10:55 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
As much as I miss family and friends, and sometimes I get sick of Asia`s `dictatorships in Disney costumes` crap, it`s still far preferable to the kind of BS the U.S. cranks out. If it wasn`t for racism I might have been born on a farm in the middle of rural Tennesee-frankly a thought that still makes me shudder. My dad was forced to move North after he asked a simple question about voter registration. Don`t even get me started.

That said, I play rock guitar. I sing songs by singers who are not only not Black, but often aren`t even guys. You have seen nothing at all until you`ve seen a bunch of Japanese guys freestyling around a huge boombox. They are probably totally unaware of the history-that`s fine. I can forgive ignorance-I disagree with the courts. They say it`s no excuse-no, actually it`s the ONLY plausible excuse. Racism is willful ignorance-that, is not even close to an excuse.


Edited by skipclone 1 (08/18/17 11:06 AM)
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#2873769 - 08/18/17 01:01 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Quote:
If it wasn`t for racism I might have been born on a farm in the middle of rural Tennesee-frankly a thought that still makes me shudder. My dad was forced to move North after he asked a simple question about voter registration.


OTOH, if it wasn't for racism, that farm in rural Tennessee might have been an awesome place to call home.

I mean, probably NOT, but still...;)
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2873783 - 08/18/17 02:55 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: p90jr
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
While I appreciate the sentiment...

If we actually followed through and rid ourselves of all things created by people with reprehensible qualities & beliefs, we'd soon find ourselves with only a handful of possessions.

Even just sticking to music, you'd be hard pressed to find a recording that didn't feature participation by less-than-angelic people.


I can certainly separate the music from the musicmaker (I crank up the radio when "Free-For-All" or "Cat Scratch Fever" come on...) but when you're appropriating a musical form from people you're disparaging... bugs me.


There's a similar sentiment on the TCM forum I'm in. Separating the actor/actress/director etc. from their perfomances on film. same basic principle in music. But yeah, when it comes to say, someone making a very lucrative living playing the music brought to us by the people the guy is disparaging IS going too far. And different than Frank, Ted or others putting down certain individuals or a segment of society's idealologies.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/18/17 02:56 PM)
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#2873850 - 08/18/17 09:13 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Quote:
If it wasn`t for racism I might have been born on a farm in the middle of rural Tennesee-frankly a thought that still makes me shudder. My dad was forced to move North after he asked a simple question about voter registration.


OTOH, if it wasn't for racism, that farm in rural Tennessee might have been an awesome place to call home.

I mean, probably NOT, but still...;)


As a seasonal home when blizzards are going on up North maybe...not in a place with major segregation issues. I don`t care how awesome it might have been.
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#2873852 - 08/18/17 09:18 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9991
Loc: Northern California
Thinking back on it, I only got to play with one black guy back in '68. I was a senior in High School and there was a wine and beer bar that my band buddies and I would hang out at. The two owners played guitars and entertained the local crowd and would let us sit in. They also served us brown beer in a coke glass knowing we weren't exactly 21 LOL! Anyway my drummer and I stopped in after Karate practice for a quick beer sans equipment. The two owners weren't playing that night due to an amp problem. So I asked if I could play a few tunes on an old piano sitting against a wall. They said sure if you can play it as good as you play that guitar! I said nope, I can only play a boogie in the key of C, but I'll give her hell...

So I went over and played the boogie and a few chords and what little blues runs I could do. An old black man sitting at the bar came over and took out his harp and started playing some jump blues with me. Sounded pretty good so I started signing all the old Elvis revamped R&B tunes I knew as 50's R&R songs, but he knew them from the 40's. We ran through every song I could think of and the crowd loved us and never got tired of that single key and my 3 chords.

So, [long story I know, but I'll keep it short] We stayed late and my new found friend needed a ride home. My drummer and I poured him behind the seats of my Sunbeam Alpine and I drove him to his apartment. We got him out and he was a little wobbly, so I helped him to the door and started to help him up the stairs. He stopped me and said we were good pals but there are some dudes inside that wouldn't like a young white kid roaming the halls LOL! I took his advice and from that point on, we met at the bar and continued to play together. But, I started bringing my guitar so we could play in more than one Key! Anyway, that's the only black blues musician I ever got to play with and I will always remember how great he made us sound... cool
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#2873858 - 08/18/17 09:30 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
I mentioned that I had a reunion recently with the singer on one of my songs. We were walking in Yokohama and talking about the racial diversiy in Rotterdam where she lives, and other cities in Europe. I told her that, there are still some places in America where I could be asking for trouble by simply walking down the street with a blond girl from Holland. She had trouble even imagining it-unfortunate but true.
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#2873867 - 08/19/17 04:29 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Racism isn't only about blind, ignorant hatred, but also making assumptions. For instance, my ex's Dad, who claimed not to hate "colored" people(as he always put it), but believed all the crap that wasn't true about them. Like, they all live on a diet of chittlin's and carp. They brush their teeth with wood ash to make them so white. They only smoked menthol cigarettes. Nonsense like that.

The same assumptions are made about African-Americans when it comes to music as well. Like none of them LIKE Rock'n'Roll( yep. I knew some who believed that) and a story of mine a bit similar in scope to yours, if not technically.....

Talking with a black guy I worked with and in telling him I played guitar, he invited me to jam with a band he and his brother had. They mostly just jammed in his basement, but I went and jammed anyway. Turned out they PREFERRED Rock'n'Roll over most of the MOTOWN that people ASSUMED would be all they'd play. First tune we jammed on was Jeff Beck's "Goin' Down". The only MOTOWN tune we did was RARE EARTH's version of "Get Ready" grin Then we did a bunch of blues tunes, and those guys were GOOD!

That was in '73, and you'll like this, Larry....they claimed their favorite band was THE EAGLES! So, there's ONE assumption tossed on the trash heap! (and we did "Take It Easy" too. wink )
Whitefang
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#2873900 - 08/19/17 07:57 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9991
Loc: Northern California
The only black music that I do not like is Rap and/or Hip Hop. I really can't tell you what the difference is as I do not listen to it. It has found it's way into new country music which is white music that I do not like with or without the rap injection LOL! I love old country and country rock, but the new cowboys and cowgirls can have the new country crap...One of the things I love about The Stones and The Eagles is the country influence in their classic rock! I'm glad to hear that the black guys that you hung with like the Eagles.

Elvis was a guy that bridged the gap and got chastised for playing those old black R&B hits from the mid 40's revamped to invent R&R like That's Alright Mama, his 1st recorded tune. (Along with that hillbilly favorite Blue Moon of Kentucky on the flip side LOL!). The old white farmers didn't like many of the greats like Chuck Berry and Little Richard because their daughters were loving them too! (along with the rest of us!). Music brings us all together as we both love the same things and the vibes that go with it. That's why I understand when a lot of people like Rap or New Country, that it doesn't matter if I like it or not...I just listen and play what I like and let the others do their thing(s). cool


Edited by Larryz (08/19/17 07:58 AM)
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#2873903 - 08/19/17 08:27 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5918
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
P90, yer profile doesn't reveal where yer "her" is. Can ya tell us ?
That won't reveal a special pocket of backwardness, of course b/c this kinda crap's all over & coming back out in the open more of late.

As far as the general subject, let's start w/ the fact that there's only a single race of humans here on Earth[*], so racism isn't just some benighted thinking but an irrational denial of the truth, flavored w/ paranoia abt being outdone by others.

It is more widespread than many may realize (or want to realize).
The famous story abt J Lee Lewis (who's career is largely based on the influence of R&B) vs. Chuck Berry over who'd follow the other as headliner at a concert is an example, as are things such as Elvis Costello's still-bewildering decision to insult some American musicians by calling Ray Charles a "blind ignorant N" ( thanks, Bonnie Bramlett, for putting him in his place, that is, lyin' on the floor w/ a bloody lip ).
It's said that when Monterrey Pop was being set up, a "well-known member of the folk community" who'd spent a lotta time in Greenwich Village, saw Jimi Hendrix as a suggested performer but protested that he was nothing but a modern day minstrel show.

There's also a kinda odd racism that crops up often---even here from at least one member, maybe more---whereby ppl claiming to like blues maintaining that early blues masters just played what was "natural" & didn't/couldn't understand what they were doing as musicians or creators, or the types who only like bands like Cream or the Stones but not the cats who set the standards in the 1st place.

What to do ?
I'm not sure, except I know 3 things: (1) while violence in self-defense may be necessary, it mostly keeps the feuding idiocy going; (2) calling out falseness is important, sunlight being the best disinfectant & all; (3) there are some who simply will not alter their thinking, no matter how obviously wrong, until something happens inside them.

I suggest everyone with an interest in how music has & can play a role in changing things read a book= MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.
While a work of fiction (sorta) it suggest how the spread of certain forms of "outsider" popular music in the USA did as much or more to change society simply by spreading it as a sorta contagion that did it's magic in a way bypassing arguments & convincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAaDEpaOOKw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh4xXxr0LWo


------------------
[*] It's worth noting that the way there got to be just a single genetic group of ppl involved the internecine warfare & slaughter between early hominid groups.
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#2873922 - 08/19/17 12:47 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
As I recall, P90 lives in Louisiana. New Orleans, if memory serves.

NOLA's history with racism is pretty unusual. Complex.
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

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http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2873948 - 08/19/17 03:20 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
d's clip entries makes me wonder.....

Was it BLACK musicians who first referred to the musical style as "Boogie-Woogie"? Or was it because black musicians largely developed and played it that WHITE people gave it that moniker? Seeing as how over many years the word "boogie" was(and still is to some) used as a racial slur? "Chicken or Egg" type of query.
Whitefang
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#2874036 - 08/20/17 11:38 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5918
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
As I recall, P90 lives in Louisiana. New Orleans, if memory serves.

NOLA's history with racism is pretty unusual. Complex.


Thanks.
Yer right abt NO.
Although it illustrates the truth abt what's called racism, that it's actually skin-color & culture prejudice.
There, as there is to some degree in other places, there is (or was) a lotta hype placed on exact shade of skin + on whether one was an original upper crust Creole or not, along w/ other foolishness.

[BTW, I skip the La part b/c, what ? we gotta distinguish it from all the other NOrleanses ? laugh ]
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#2874057 - 08/20/17 01:37 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: d]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5162
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: d

BTW, I skip the La part b/c, what ? we gotta distinguish it from all the other NOrleanses ? laugh


Actually, yes!

Besides being nicer to look at (NO vs NOLA) and sounding cool, it helps distinguish between the city and the many things it shares its name with, like:

New Orleans- the first steamboat in the central United States
The USS New Orleans- four different warships of the U.S. Navy
New Orleans- a residential skyscraper in Rotterdam, Netherlands
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2874144 - 08/21/17 05:04 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Yeah, d...

Both white AND African-American cultures in this country carried that crap out beyond just skin color. Polish-Americans hating Irish-Americans, and them hating Italian-Americans and THEM not liking German-Americans.....and on and on

And DARKER skinned African-Americans looking down on "high-yellow" and vice-versa. THAT'S all too much like WORK for me. It seems easier to me just to go on about my business and live and let live.

And DANNY----That all sounds like too much of a STRETCH to me....

NO v NOLA? But maybe it's because I don't text, or even SPEAK "text", preferring to talk like a grown-up is probably why I find that a non-issue. wink
Whitefang
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#2874448 - 08/22/17 11:04 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
p90jr Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
As I recall, P90 lives in Louisiana. New Orleans, if memory serves.

NOLA's history with racism is pretty unusual. Complex.


85 miles away in Baton Rouge, Louisiana... the State Capital, "part college town and state government hub" that leans more Liberal and Cosmopolitan, part "industrial cowtown" that generally leans the other way. I'm out on the town in New Orleans, playing or taking in shows, more than most of the people I know who live there, though. My dad was a New Orleans guy, but was happy to be here instead because the overall standard of living was much better (probably still is) and his multiracial background wasn't a barrier socially or professionally... people just thought he was a talented, smart, well-spoken guy.

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#2874495 - 08/22/17 02:30 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: p90jr]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9632
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
A lady I used to work with(African-American) transferred to a plant down in Baton Rouge back in '95. Last I heard about her, she was pretty happy living and working down there. Anyway....

P90, one of my favorite singer/songwriters supposedly hails from New Orleans. CHRIS SMITHER. I'm assuming you're pretty familiar with him. But anyway, a lot of talent DOES seem to come out of there.

Like.....YOU for instance! wink
Whitefang
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#2875066 - 08/24/17 10:16 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: whitefang]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
20k Club

Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 24507
Loc: The Great Spirit's Handprint o...
Been BUSY. Stoppin' by this thread, all I wanna say is that

I

LOATH

RACISM.
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#2875068 - 08/24/17 10:27 PM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
Hear hear!
_________________________
Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

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#2875091 - 08/25/17 04:33 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: skipclone 1]
Eric Iverson Online   content
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Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 5227
Loc: Jackson Heights, NY
I just participated in a heated office discussion about racism, as a matter of fact.....

It's a very sticky subject - lots of blame to go around, of course. Sometimes unfairly assigned.... but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, LOL.

My personal experience with musicians is that most of the time those of us who love to play hang out with our "birds of a feather", so to speak, and don't let race hang us up too much - we're more concerned with learning new tunes and new licks, and creating something worthwhile. Give the customer his money's worth....

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#2875096 - 08/25/17 04:43 AM Re: White Blues guitarists who don't like African Americans. [Re: Eric Iverson]
skipclone 1 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 7961
Loc: Japan
I know this is going to get within beeping distance of political-and I wasn`t there for the discussion. But there is a long history of legitimate, peaceful protests being hijacked by agent-provocatuers-for the younger crowd, look up cointelpro. Personally, I never heard of antifa before the big news story, and I`m not a news idiot. I think it`s important to step back a bit-counterprotests have been going on a long time, without blowing up like the recent one.
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Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

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