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#2872059 - 08/10/17 09:45 AM Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9748
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
I've come to realize there are keyboard players out there that don't have GAS. Ever.

They own one keyboard--often something from the 1990's. It's usually a bit dirty or beat up, maybe with a broken key. But no other keyboard. No studio at home. One keyboard. That's it! How can they not want new toys? Is there a special formula to avoid GAS and keep more money in the bank?

roll
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#2872061 - 08/10/17 09:55 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Synthoid]
timwat Offline
Quite wealthy...spiritually
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 5358
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
I know several full-timers at very high level that don't have GAS - not just KB players, but a few of them are. They use old gear, gear that would be derided and made fun of on the forum. And they have no plans to upgrade.

In talking to a few of them, here are the reasons I can cite:

1) It's the carpenter, not the tools
It's almost a cliche - the guy with the newest, shiniest Les Paul is part-timer who can't play in time. And these guys have seen sooo many instances of guys with the latest who can't play. So it becomes clear and obvious (and sometimes, a badge of honor) that they are playing music at the highest levels on old tired road-worn stuff. And in a nod to the differential equation thread and others like it, real music and art touches people at the deepest level, even when it has deep and noticeable flaws. Sometimes, because of the flaws.

2) They did their own taxes last year
Nothing drives home the fact that 'parts is parts' like distilling purchases to deductible expenses or not. It becomes far clearer what is a necessary, required purchase vs. a vanity buy (or, perhaps better, a whimsical buy).

My 0.02.

Tim
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#2872062 - 08/10/17 09:59 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9748
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
OK now that was too practical there, Tim. laugh
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#2872063 - 08/10/17 10:00 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Synthoid]
timwat Offline
Quite wealthy...spiritually
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 5358
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
LOL
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#2872067 - 08/10/17 10:11 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: timwat]
dongna Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 362
I'm one of them.

Up to around 2005 or so, my rig was Yamaha KX88, Kurzweil 1000PX, E-mu Proteus/1, and Alesis D4. Around that time this entire setup was stolen (along with my Hafler amp and Tannoy monitors). They didn't take my Hill Multimix mixer for some reason.

I replaced it all with a Yamaha S90ES and Dynaudio DM5 monitors. That's still all I have today (although I recently added a Mac Mini running Mainstage-- the first step into VSTs).

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#2872071 - 08/10/17 10:27 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Synthoid]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9748
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Yes, but you had several keyboards/modules to start with. smile

I'm talking about folks with one and only one keyboard. Like, forever.

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To stop the flow of music would be like the stopping of time itself, incredible and inconceivable.
-- Aaron Copland

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#2872080 - 08/10/17 11:18 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: timwat]
Rusty Mike Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 10/05/10
Posts: 748
Loc: Central NJ
Originally Posted By: timwat

1) It's the carpenter, not the tools


I can certainly understand that part. And it's not even about the GAS, but the desire to have quality tools.

I met a Professional jazz pianist last year, and his main axe was a Yamaha NP-V60, essentially a consumer grade practice keyboard. It's made of lightweight plastic, has a low grade synth weighted action and a pretty low grade sound for a professional to use. It shocked me a bit; I would think that someone who does this for a living would want to use the best tool he could afford (or maybe that WAS the best tool he could afford). It doesn't bother me a bit to see older, quality equipment. I'm happy to hang onto my stuff for as long as its relevant for my use. I guess I was just surprised at the low quality of the axe.
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#2872081 - 08/10/17 11:20 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Synthoid]
synthizen2 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 692
Loc: USA
If it weren't for my wife feeling that I needed an upgrade last Christmas, I'd still be taking my QS8 and Z1 to gigs. They still work. They're in storage. But it's good to have back-ups in case something goes wrong with the new kit.

I can't say that I'm the type that would only have 1 keyboard (and an extremely old, beat-up keyboard at that)... but I do tend to hold onto my boards for longer periods of time than is typical here in this forum. I get them repaired if I can, rather than just go buy a new one (unless it's too cost-prohibitive to repair). But even if my boards are older 90s beasts, I wouldn't gig it if it looked like crap. I keep even my older boards in top shape.

My basic philosophy is that, if the keys sound good, and I know how to program them inside-out, then there's no point in upgrading until something goes critically wrong with it, or something FANTASTICALLY BETTER SOUNDING comes out (with regard to acoustic piano, rhodes, wurly, B3, clav, etc.), and is affordable (to me).

A person who holds onto an old beat-up single keyboard for ages can't really be placing much emphasis on KEYBOARDS as his/her main instrument... I would think.


Edited by synthizen2 (08/10/17 11:23 AM)
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#2872083 - 08/10/17 11:35 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: synthizen2]
BbAltered Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/18/12
Posts: 473
If I could get someone else to put a fine acoustic piano, and Hammond, and a Rhodes on stage and move them all away afterwards, I would not feel the need for any other keyboards.

But I have to move the keyboards onto the stages I play on, so no fine piano, Hammond, and Rhodes. That means getting a digital instrument light enough to move by myself. And because the quality of such digital keyboards has continued to improve in ways that are meaningful to me (better sound, better keyboard), I have sought to up the quality of the keyboards I use on stage.

I recently bought a VR-09, and replaced it a year later with a NE-5D because the NE-5D has a much better keyboard feel and better Hammond sound (IMO). I sold the VR-09 because I had no more need/use for it. If that is GAS, then I guess I have GAS.
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#2872094 - 08/10/17 12:12 PM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: BbAltered]
SkiGuy777 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/17
Posts: 167
Loc: Plantation FL
It's probably me he's talking about. First I'll tell my equipment and then explain why I never had GAS.

I have a Rhodes 88 stage (soft top) in perfect condition that I practice on. I've had this keyboard since I was a teenager, it doesn't go on gigs.

When I was laid off from a job, I was bouncing off the walls and decided to play keyboards again. I started attending the local jam sessions and bought a Korg 01W/FD. The keyboard player at the jam session had a Korg SG1 88 key piano and a Korg CX3 organ playing the blues. This was the set up I wanted except I didn't want 88 keys weighted.

I eventually bought a Hammond XB-2 and was gigging with an 8 piece R&B soul band (20 years ago). The Korg had all the sounds I needed, it was mostly piano, strings, Rhodes, and the Hammond. The band eventually fizzled. I took a break, was in a classic rock band that only played a party once a year. The newer Korgs didn't impress me (Triton) but I was following everything in Keyboard magazine and the web. My Hammond XB-2 developed a noise problem, so I traded it in at Goff and upgraded to an XK-2. About 8 years ago I started gigging out with a classic rock then horn band and my equipment was good enough.

We move to today, I'm on my 3rd horn band, 3DN tribute, the Korg 01W/FD is in perfect condition, I even made a page about oiling the keys here which still gets tons of hits.
http://www.nogodforme.com/korg-01wFD-sticky-keys-repair.htm

I have all the sounds I need. If the 01W died, then I would get a Kronos, that's a major jump in terms of upgrading. But the Triton and Trinity didn't blow me away. In my world, the piano will always be a Korg, and the organ will be a Hammond.

Pictures of my rig on a gig which I've posted many times.
http://www.quatraine3.com/tw2017/SolidBrass0214171mp001.jpg
http://www.quatraine3.com/tw2017/SolidBrass0214171mp002.jpg

The latest upgrade was the Ventilator 2 which sounds fantastic.

Get this, I'm also in a 3DN tribute, we rehearse at the band leader's home. He's got an 88 key Kronos, Hammond XK5, and Leslie 3300. We recently played our first gig and took all that equipment with no problems. Took 30 minutes to set it up and required 2 people to move the Leslie, Kronos, and Hammond. That's the only issue with the newer equipment, weight. Would I like to have a Kronos and XK5? You bet, but my rig is still good enough for gigging. So in my case, I didn't have to buy the newer stuff, the band leader did and I get to use it because they want the sound. This is the rig I play at rehearsal and the 3DN gigs.
http://www.quatraine3.com/tw2017/RehearsalRoom032317l1mp018.jpg
http://www.quatraine3.com/tw2017/RehearsalRoom0323171mp020.jpg
The Leslie was bought used at a reduced price and already has 2 phantom mics on the upper rotors and a mic on the lower with XLR connections on the cabinet.

The other reason I never got GAS is I don't live in a big home. My equipment is in a computer room, the Rhodes and my rig are on one wall of the room. The computer desk is on the other. I never did the garage studio.


Edited by SkiGuy777 (08/10/17 12:41 PM)
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#2872157 - 08/10/17 04:26 PM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: SkiGuy777]
RABid Offline
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Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12144
I once played with a drummer like that. Used the same drum set for 20 years. Saw no need to buy extra cymbals, more drums, etc... Instead he used his money to buy a house, new car, boat, put a kid through college. ... I don't trust people like that. razz
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#2872181 - 08/10/17 06:36 PM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: RABid]
GregC Online   content
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5052
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
I was starting to resemble that 1 keyboard musician. With a +6 yr old Kronos.

It is a great instrument for a Song writer.

I did recently break my streak and purchased MS3 and Omnis/Keyscape. But I haven't yet integrated that platform into my song writing flow. It will be a project for late 2017 when I have more time.

It is interesting to read about serious musicians who have had the same instrument or rig for a decade + , especially with the temptation of impressive tech related tools, that enhance our craft/creativity.


Edited by GregC (08/10/17 06:39 PM)

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#2872214 - 08/10/17 09:34 PM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: timwat]
allan_evett Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 3717
Loc: Westville, IN
Originally Posted By: timwat
I know several full-timers at very high level that don't have GAS - not just KB players, but a few of them are. They use old gear, gear that would be derided and made fun of on the forum. And they have no plans to upgrade.

In talking to a few of them, here are the reasons I can cite:

1) It's the carpenter, not the tools
It's almost a cliche - the guy with the newest, shiniest Les Paul is part-timer who can't play in time. And these guys have seen sooo many instances of guys with the latest who can't play. So it becomes clear and obvious (and sometimes, a badge of honor) that they are playing music at the highest levels on old tired road-worn stuff.



I've met several players who use older gear. More than a few of them sound like they've not kept up with practicing, but two of them I'd vacate the bench for very quickly. One guy's main axe remains an S90ES, the other used a Wurli 200a as his portable piano for jazz trio gigs - back in the early 1990's. He outclassed many players I've heard on both newer, more expensive gear and grand pianos. When I inquired about lessons, he replied that he was a teacher, but that his waiting list was about 30 deep; small wonder at that.

When I think of guys like that, it indeed gives me pause for thought, considering some of the state-of-the-art gear I own.
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#2872241 - 08/11/17 03:32 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: allan_evett]
marczellm Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 784
Loc: Budapest, Hungary
I think I will only change my current rig if something in it starts dying or there's a specific gig that requires something more. Otherwise the NS2 + JUNO-G is a keeper combo. And I know how to program them to sound good.
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#2872276 - 08/11/17 06:25 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: marczellm]
Outkaster Offline
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Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 5811
Loc: Rochester, NY
The problem becomes when those sounds don't help a player put his best foot forward. I mean for those of us in the know we can tell when someone playing something with outdated sounds doesn't come across well. The public really doesn't care I guess.
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#2872288 - 08/11/17 06:56 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Outkaster]
Stokely Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/15/12
Posts: 1623
Loc: Florida
I can't say that is me.

I have reached a point of equilibrium with my keyboards...I tried to sell them but they are worth more to me to keep them. There's really nothing wrong with my rig (a VR-700 and pc361) other than maybe I'd like it smaller and lighter for the stages we play...and my pc361 has acted up (but actually that makes it impossible to sell).

But some of us always itch to be tweaking and buying smile

So I got a G&L tele on Stupid Deal of the Day at musicians friend. SDotD is truly dangerous.

Then for my birthday I got myself some custom IEMs from a local place--they do the molds so that saves some hassle and $. They had a 20% off sale so I got triple drivers for a darn good price. We'll see how much improvement they will be over my single-driver non-custom Shures.

In other words, it never ends. I'd like to upgrade my acoustic guitar too--but I got honest with myself and said "you are spending more time looking at used acoustics than actually playing the one you have."

We just got a new family ipad so I'm itching to see how that thing works as a sound source for both keyboard and guitar. It might well be that this is my next "keyboard" if it works out.


Edited by Stokely (08/11/17 06:58 AM)

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#2872290 - 08/11/17 07:04 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Stokely]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9748
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: Stokely
But some of us always itch...

I'm itching


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#2872291 - 08/11/17 07:06 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Outkaster]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2221
Loc: NYC area
I'm a full-time musician with little if any disposable income so my tools have to last. One advantage I have is that a software rig at least lets me update my sounds without buying a new laptop. The only thing that constitutes "outdated" to me is when an instrument I play doesn't give me a good finger-to-ear feeling. My acoustic piano plugin is ten years old but I'm happy as a clam playing it. My keyboard controllers, like my cars, are run into the ground I choose them carefully and use them until reliability becomes a concern. I will acknowledge that my gigs are simpler in scope jazz, or older funk/r&b where it's mostly bread & butter sounds. I don't do shows, tribute bands, and even the weddings have dropped off to almost zero (those gigs demand the stupid bleeps & bloops of current loop-based music that live bands aren't designed to play anyway).

I might be generalizing but I see a lot of the GAS here as based on nothing but features, some pretty minor IMO. A new product is announced, noone's seen or heard it, and yet there are posts saying "gotta have one", "I'm definitely buying it", etc. Like that's what's keeping one's musical expressiveness from its full potential. I don't think it works that way. Of course the bottom line is always your satisfaction. For some people it's about having the latest & greatest. I suppose I should thank them for keeping the MI market going I sure as hell am not!

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#2872297 - 08/11/17 07:23 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Reezekeys]
Outkaster Offline
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Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 5811
Loc: Rochester, NY
I think we are getting to the point that certain organ and piano sounds will only get so good. I agree with you about the finger-to-ear feeling. That throws me off a lot even with newer boards. After all they are all facsimile's of acoustic or electro-mechanical boards.
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#2872310 - 08/11/17 08:23 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: RABid]
duff beer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 426
Loc: Winnipeg
Originally Posted By: RABid
I once played with a drummer like that. Used the same drum set for 20 years. Saw no need to buy extra cymbals, more drums, etc... Instead he used his money to buy a house, new car, boat, put a kid through college. ... I don't trust people like that. razz

In one of my bands, our drummer has had the same set of drums for 30 years...all he has done is a few minor hardware and cymbal upgrades. The guitarist used a $200 guitar I sold him 20 years ago and only recently bought a backup for gigs. Our keyboard player still uses the same 2 keyboards that he brought to the audition 8 years ago. I used a $200 Squier bass for years until I finally bought a 5-string.

Our band gets a lot of compliments on song choice and musicianship...virtually no one seems to care about our gear. Even other musicians rarely bring up gear when talking to us.

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#2872351 - 08/11/17 10:29 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Reezekeys]
GregC Online   content
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 5052
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: Reezekeys
I'.

I might be generalizing but I see a lot of the GAS here as based on nothing but features, some pretty minor IMO. A new product is announced, noone's seen or heard it, and yet there are posts saying "gotta have one", "I'm definitely buying it", etc. Like that's what's keeping one's musical expressiveness from its full potential. I don't think it works that way. Of course the bottom line is always your satisfaction. For some people it's about having the latest & greatest. I suppose I should thank them for keeping the MI market going I sure as hell am not!


I agree with you. I have zero financial gain in song writing but its still a passion.

I am locked into my Kronos for + 6 years. No hardware, since then, has caught my interest where I had to have it. I do have MS3 and Omnis/Keyscape as I think this platform is a must have to develop and stay on.

Its great to have choices, but I am utilitarian on gear. Very simple, IOW.

I am the same with my car , 2009 CRV. No need to change that either.

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#2872357 - 08/11/17 10:43 AM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: duff beer]
Mills Dude Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 89
Loc: New York
The Nerds are a very big local cover band in the NJ area for the last 25 years. They quit their day jobs a long time ago and play over 200 dates a year in high paying bars, private and corporate gigs.

The keyboard player, Mongo, has been rocking two Korgs since he took over on 1996, an 01/W and a Trinity. I've talked to him a few times. He doesn't care, he's got everything worked out on that rig. He knows it inside and out. It does everything he needs to do. I'm not even sure he has backup keyboards.
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#2872385 - 08/11/17 12:30 PM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Mills Dude]
SkiGuy777 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/19/17
Posts: 167
Loc: Plantation FL
That's similar to me. The reason people don't upgrade once they have the Korg set up, is because they have all their combis and progs set. The combis can take a while to program with the split and layers. I've got a few that cover a bunch of pop tunes I've done in the past. I'll have a Rhodes sound in the left hand, with flutes and strings in the right.

A backup? Nope, but I do have a Korg PS60 gig piano that was given to me by the previous band leader when he passed away. I bring that to the gigs as a back up in case the 01W/FD dies. So technically, I have 4 keyboards.

As a weekend warrior, I've been playing my Korg for years, and it's still in perfect condition. You'd think the power supply or a part on the main board would go bad, but it's still working, same with the XK-2 and Rhodes. I will cry if something happens and try my hardest to get them fixed.

So to everyone who has a Kronos, if you don't beat it up, you can use it for 20-30 years.


Edited by SkiGuy777 (08/11/17 12:41 PM)
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#2872414 - 08/11/17 03:21 PM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: SkiGuy777]
Karl Sutton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Mount Juliet, TN
I'm like that with my mountain bike - 1997 Gary Fisher Big Sur. Not shiny, beat to death, runs great!
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#2872419 - 08/11/17 03:33 PM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: RABid]
davedoerfler Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 6527
Loc: thin ice
Originally Posted By: RABid
I once played with a drummer like that. Used the same drum set for 20 years. Saw no need to buy extra cymbals, more drums, etc... Instead he used his money to buy a house, new car, boat, put a kid through college. ... I don't trust people like that. razz


coming from the guy who owns 10 snare drums. laugh
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#2872428 - 08/11/17 03:48 PM Re: Kinda OT: A Startling Discovery [Re: Rusty Mike]
Jazzmammal Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1799
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Rusty Mike
I would think that someone who does this for a living would want to use the best tool he could afford (or maybe that WAS the best tool he could afford)


Let's see, a professional jazz musician trying to make a living at it...

As for me, my PC3 76 was my goto board for 3 years until it crapped out on two separate gigs, something to do with bad power and/or heat I think. Funny thing, at home never a problem. I was going to get it fixed but then I bought an SK1 and it's all over for me. 12 pounds, sling it over my shoulder with the carrying case, fits anywhere on tiny stages, good B3, decent enough other sounds. Done.

I have to get off my ass and sell my other boards and get the Kurz fixed.

Bob

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