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#2871774 - 08/09/17 07:38 AM Simple differential Equations
Theo Verelst Offline
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Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 3664
Most somewhat intelligent people with some (western, at least) education will know what D.E.'s are up to some level. Thinking from a reasonable level of aggregation, mechanical, electro mechanical and electronic instrument's behavior can completely be specified by DEs and even sound waves in air can be, be it by 3-dimensional, but relatively basic ones.

Boring mathematics for engineers, perhaps, but think about why there is so little known about the technology underlying most of the sound technology many here use: everything appears hidden under menus with perhaps appealing denotions but getting that dream sound takes a lot of unnatural tuning that's hard to specify to others and even more impossible to quantify.

Sound qualities would be easier to convey to for instance software instrument makers if you could say something like: "the LFO modulation of the main iterator XYZ should come out more accurate to the linear output of the wave simulator" than "gimme an MKS20 on steroids with some piano samples"

Lot's of signal phases, filter convolutions an air-rattling note components are hidden from view, and accuracy in mid frequency range wave-ensembles for instance is hard to find at all. Sigh, if more people would have mathematical background, the world of music would be easier to grasp.

T

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#2871777 - 08/09/17 07:45 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Theo Verelst]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Theo Verelst
Sigh, if more people would have mathematical background, the word of music would be easier to grasp.


Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present peoples' exhibit A, which neatly and thoroughly topples the OP's ivory tower.

Friday's afternoon Blues

For those who would prefer to just jump straight to the evidence:

http://www.theover.org/Keybdmg/kurzrom_maseffs_tvblues1.mp3
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#2871778 - 08/09/17 07:48 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Sven Golly]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Posts: 2751
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Simple Differential Equations, the not-so-simple hyperbole.
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#2871786 - 08/09/17 08:17 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Delaware Dave]
stoken6 Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 1543
"I woke up this morning, my mid-frequency range wave-ensemble accuracy was gone
I said I woke up this morning, my filter convolutions and air-rattling note components were hidden from view
But I thought from a reasonable level of aggregation...
... and my electro-mechanical and electronic instrument's behaviour was completely specified"

Lord, that's a real Theo for ya!

Cheers, Mike.
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#2871803 - 08/09/17 09:09 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: stoken6]
mate stubb Offline
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My day goes so much better when I get my morning Theo.
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#2871804 - 08/09/17 09:21 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: stoken6]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
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Loc: USA, greater NY area
I got home late last night - hungry.
I found leftovers in the refrigerator.
I immediately brought a plate to the microwave oven, then calculated the necessary heat flux using Fourier's law.
Since the heat flux is uniform over the surface, it became evident the heat loss rate was going to play a factor.
Then I said, "screw it" set it for 1:45, stirred up the bowl and put it back in for another minute. Then I ate.
Tasted the same whether I did the math or not.
Maybe even better without. wink
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#2871808 - 08/09/17 09:28 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Theo Verelst]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9748
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA

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#2871810 - 08/09/17 09:32 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Synthoid]
Legatoboy Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 3618
Loc: Huntington Sta., New York (LI)


The DUH Formula!

D=UH 2

Dumbness equals (U)s times the speed of light (H) squared or DUH!

DUH can be chanted like OM, only it's the sound of Nothing coming out of Nothing!


Edited by Legatoboy (08/09/17 10:19 AM)
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#2871819 - 08/09/17 10:02 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Legatoboy]
TommyS Offline
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Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 525
Loc: SoCal
Rübe Goldberg is alive and well apparently,,,

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#2871824 - 08/09/17 10:15 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: TommyS]
Sven Golly Offline
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Registered: 11/12/03
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Loc: Toronto, ON
Originally Posted By: TommyS
Rübe Goldberg is alive and well apparently,,,


I love his Variations... twothumbs
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#2871827 - 08/09/17 10:24 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Sven Golly]
RABid Offline
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Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12144
There is a club called MENSA, specifically formed for people that need to tell others how smart they are. Admission requirements are not very high. You should check it out.
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#2871832 - 08/09/17 10:33 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: RABid]
Dr88s Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/12/13
Posts: 1108
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I totally want to click on any random (heck, all) treads on this forum and just answer any OPs question with

The LFO modulation of the main iterator XYZ should come out more accurate to the linear output of the wave simulator.

Must... resist... temptation...
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#2871833 - 08/09/17 10:35 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: RABid]
Legatoboy Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 3618
Loc: Huntington Sta., New York (LI)
Mensa requires a proven IQ rating of 140 or above tested by a valid testing service or similar to get into their high brow club.

I have a score from my private HS entrance exam of just 130 or so (not bad but no cigar) ...I'm no genius, just a smart a$$ and DUH a$$ most of the time!

Theo on the other hand, well lets just say he's a shoe in!


Edited by Legatoboy (08/09/17 10:36 AM)
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#2871834 - 08/09/17 10:36 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: RABid]
Theo Verelst Offline
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Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 3664
Just to be clear: it's not a bogus subject, and more than a few people may know from memory that when "simple" is replaced by "ordinary", it can actually be used in conjunction with DE.

The fun is that music can be made from highschool level DE's, which can sound beautiful.

T

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#2871835 - 08/09/17 10:37 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Legatoboy]
RABid Offline
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Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12144
Well, he is definitely the personality type they are looking for.
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#2871850 - 08/09/17 11:44 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Theo Verelst]
Sven Golly Offline
KC Ambassador of Goodwill
10k Club

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 12227
Loc: Toronto, ON
Originally Posted By: Theo Verelst
Just to be clear: it's not a bogus subject, and more than a few people may know from memory that when "simple" is replaced by "ordinary", it can actually be used in conjunction with DE.

The fun is that music can be made from highschool level DE's, which can sound beautiful.

T


Pictures (or, in this case, audio) or it didn't happen. snax
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#2871851 - 08/09/17 11:46 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: stoken6]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 5697
Loc: San Diego / Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: stoken6
"I woke up this morning, my mid-frequency range wave-ensemble accuracy was gone
I said I woke up this morning, my filter convolutions and air-rattling note components were hidden from view
But I thought from a reasonable level of aggregation...
... and my electro-mechanical and electronic instrument's behaviour was completely specified"


Was dying from laughter after reading this. And it was impossible to read without putting the 'ba doo ba dee bum' blues lick on beat 4.
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#2871869 - 08/09/17 12:47 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Theo Verelst]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 5156
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Theo Verelst


The fun is that music can be made from highschool level DE's, which can sound beautiful.

T


Well I thought so too...until my musical taste and ear matured now greatly preferring sounds derived from 3rd order linear non-homogeneous equations.

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#2871870 - 08/09/17 12:59 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Markyboard]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 2751
Loc: Take a guess ....
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#2871871 - 08/09/17 01:00 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Bobadohshe]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 3274
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Bobadohshe
Originally Posted By: stoken6
"I woke up this morning, my mid-frequency range wave-ensemble accuracy was gone
I said I woke up this morning, my filter convolutions and air-rattling note components were hidden from view
But I thought from a reasonable level of aggregation...
... and my electro-mechanical and electronic instrument's behaviour was completely specified"


Was dying from laughter after reading this. And it was impossible to read without putting the 'ba doo ba dee bum' blues lick on beat 4.


Finally there's a hip, modern 21st century equivalent to "Working At The Woolco Manager Trainee Blues" for those open jam nights at the Faculty Club.
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#2871880 - 08/09/17 01:58 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: drawback]
Gretel Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/13/14
Posts: 75
I don't get it. It's required for people working in physical modelling to know about differential equations. That's basically what physical modelling is all about. But what does the average musician have to do with it?
Furthermore: Are differential equations really highschool level in the netherlands? They aren't in germany.

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#2871886 - 08/09/17 02:21 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Bobadohshe]
Moonglow Offline
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Registered: 03/15/03
Posts: 4451
Loc: Northwest Indiana
Originally Posted By: Bobadohshe
Originally Posted By: stoken6
"I woke up this morning, my mid-frequency range wave-ensemble accuracy was gone
I said I woke up this morning, my filter convolutions and air-rattling note components were hidden from view
But I thought from a reasonable level of aggregation...
... and my electro-mechanical and electronic instrument's behaviour was completely specified"

Was dying from laughter after reading this. And it was impossible to read without putting the 'ba doo ba dee bum' blues lick on beat 4.

...and here I thought they were the preliminary lyrics to More Than a Feeling.
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#2871888 - 08/09/17 02:29 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Moonglow]
Kurt W Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 213
The mob is having fun. Just ugly.

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#2871901 - 08/09/17 03:58 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Kurt W]
JazzPiano88 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/15
Posts: 306
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kurt W
The mob is having fun. Just ugly.

Here we're conducting our nice tame soap operas, and he goes and interrupts us with Ordinary Differential Equations!!! The Nerve!!

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#2871902 - 08/09/17 04:09 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Kurt W]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
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Loc: St. Louis, MO
My experience was that High school covered Algebra and Trigonometry as requirements, though most people who were college bound in any kind of technical field elected to take Calculus....which was sort of the cliff notes version of Calc at an engineering University.

My Engineering degree required in order: Calc 1, Calc 2, Calc 3, Differential Equations, Partial Differential Equations. Sort of separate from those but still required was Statistics. Problem with the Diff EQ classes was that they were very general since all of the various Engineering Disciplines may apply them in different ways - so you may be using it for Thermodynamics, Engineering Mechanics/Dynamics, etc....so they kept it very general in terms of applications.

Now some of the EE classes were basically math classes except offered by the EE department and more applicable. As an example, Diff EQ covered Laplace Transforms, which I found to be less applicable than the Fourier Transforms covered in EE classes. We also had to take a Computer Science class that really didn't involve a single computer all semester and was also all math. It was covered Decision Tree, Game Theory, Shortest Route (Travelling Salesman Problem) etc.

Anyway, at undergraduate level, they just weren't very good at digging into specific music related applications. I took a semester of analog electronics for obvious reason. While we did spend adequate time on things like OTA's for VCO/VCF/VCA, enough for me to be able to design circuits, the professor spent most of the damn semester covering a Tunnel Diode. I'll probably never touch a tunnel diode my entire life.
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#2871924 - 08/09/17 07:13 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: J. Dan]
Tom Williams Offline
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Registered: 01/04/14
Posts: 644
Loc: West Virginia
And I was proud of myself for knowing about logarithms and their application to pitch and amplitude. I aced calculus while I was finishing my degree, but forgot about it in about 2 years. Never made it to "simple" differential equations, but I admit it sounds like fun.
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#2871929 - 08/09/17 07:37 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Tom Williams]
harmonizer Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 666
Loc: NJ, USA
I got an B.S. Engineering degree in college, which included taking 4 semesters of calculus of some type. I recall reading statements like this in the Thomas textbook:

"Clearly, one of the solutions to this differential equation is <something-or-other>" ......(and then the text would continue on, to discuss the more difficult other solution to the differential equation).

I remember thinking "no, it's not clear at all". That I passed the 4th semester of calc in college had more to do with my test-taking ability than my comfort with the subject.

Hence my comfort with ordinary software programming, where if you look closely enough, the answer is always going to be a 1 or a 0, and will not be approaching some limit. Ah, software.

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#2871951 - 08/09/17 11:42 PM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Theo Verelst]
CowboyNQ Offline
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#2871958 - 08/10/17 12:04 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: CowboyNQ]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 8293
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I was a math major, and studied advanced differential equations. It's the basis of a lot of engineering, but isn't the math I use everyday on my day job (that would primarily be Geometry, Algebra, Fourier Transforms, and basically anything in the realm of Mathematical Physics).

It has never occurred to me to let O.D.E. inform my appreciation of a musical Ode, whether written by ol' Ludwig or by yours truly. When I wake up tomorrow, I doubt things will have changed in that regard.

I suspect this whole topic has been one grand joke; a play on words, so to speak.
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#2871959 - 08/10/17 12:04 AM Re: Simple differential Equations [Re: Sven Golly]
stoken6 Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 1543
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Originally Posted By: TommyS
Rübe Goldberg is alive and well apparently,,,


I love his Variations... twothumbs

laugh

See also P.D.Q. Bach (cf)

Regards, Mike.
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