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#2870131 - 08/01/17 12:56 AM an amp, my kingdom for an amp
zephonic Online   content
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So here's my journey with amps over the last five years:

- Behringer 208D, the first, the cheapest, and with the benefit of hindsight also the best. Problem is, it only has one input, so you need a mixer. If they made these with two line ins, I'd buy another one right now. I blew mine about two months ago, five minutes before the gig. That was not a good night. I want to have it fixed, but cost would probably exceed its retail value.

- EV ZLX12P, very popular around here. I never got on with it. Hated the way it made my Nord sound, but it was pretty okay for everything else. Sold it last year.

- JBL EON 610 sounded fine, but it didn't go loud enough. And I don't like the fact that the DSP EQ curves can't be bypassed (although I guess that applies to all of them). Oh, and the iPad connectivity is a hoax. Returned it after two or three gigs.

- Turbosound Milan M10. I hoped it would be like a better B208D. It wasn't. The first unit I got had a weird LF warble so I exchanged it, only for the second unit to have the same issue. Returned it.

- Presonus AIR 12. It is like a better ZLX, but $200 better? I don't know, and it doesn't go loud enough for certain situations.


I have just reached out to Sweetwater hoping they'll let me return the AIR12 and give me store credit. Lesson learned, throwing more money at the problem isn't necessarily the solution, and buying speakers online is not the best way to do this.


Honestly, I'm not kidding about the Behringer. To me, it sounds better than all the others, at half the price, and oddly it goes louder than most as well. Proof positive that the advertised power ratings are meaningless.
Point is, I'd prefer not to bring a mixer; I schlep enough as it is, so I'd really rather have something that can accommodate two or even three inputs.


Right now I wonder if the EV ELX112P is a suitable step up? I'm also looking at Schertler acoustic amps. I like that those are class A and free of DSP, something I haven't yet tried. I'd prefer not to spend more than $600 on an amp, as I don't need one all that often. But if it is the right one, I may go a little higher. I'm open to suggestions.

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#2870135 - 08/01/17 03:57 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
Markay Offline
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You like pa's voiced different to me. If the ZLX is not for you then try the QSC 8.2 or 10.2.
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#2870141 - 08/01/17 04:38 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Markay]
DanL Offline
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I have the ELX112P and really like them. Definitely better sounding than the ZLX which a friend of mine had and I used it at rehearsal one night.

I had the EON 610 and felt the same - they didn't go loud enough. I did find the DSP easy to work with and the bluetooth app worked fine on my Android phone.
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#2870142 - 08/01/17 04:44 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Markay]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Problem with my, purchased new, QSC 10's, they have to be aimed at your head.
Last week I was shocked at the profound difference in volume ( obviously the dispersion is the issue... but goodness gracious .. that much of a difference.. oy ) with the QSC right next to me, on the floor, but NOT aimed up at my head, versus when I aimed it upward while still on the floor. The difference in volume is a huge- gigantic- colossal- stupid difference. You tech minded heads will get all defensive and justify this... but my old trusty EON 15 - generation 2.. makes that ( angle dispersion ) difference as well, BUT i can still HEAR the darned thing when it is not aimed AT my head.
The difference with the QSC 10 is such, that ( I use two speakers, sometimes of different brands ) I have to put my head next to the darned QSC to see if it is turned ON!

I do not care what the REASONS are... this is too much of a difference.. a mere few inches in direction ought not make sound disappear. The next gig I put qsc on a stand by my head, but it was aimed straight ahead, and not directly at my head.. it was plenty loud then.

But with EON, G2 which has never gotten enough love around most parts... I do not have this issue at all. I can hear it on the floor, whether aimed at me or not. And slight degrees of change in angle help others to hear it better, but I still hear it!!

If JBL would wake up... they ought to reissue them.

I have a similar model EV 15 you mentioned - it is ok, but EON seems stronger to me.

My friend has a super heavy Behringer with mixer in it.. that thing is over 50 lbs, sounds decently.

I do not know an answer that equals the EON 15 G2

In meantime QSC K series need to be on stands. Stands help in general even my favorite ( not perfect - I know about the hiss etc ) EON 15 sounded better on a stand high in the air. I did a gig with a single EON 15 on a high stand.. Left hand bass, piano, strings ... and a loud vocalist. I was pleasantly surprised the single speaker on a stand filled the goal of full sound.

QSC k10 has to be on a stand.




Edited by I-missRichardTee (08/01/17 04:58 AM)
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#2870149 - 08/01/17 05:55 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: I-missRichardTee]
cphollis Offline
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Zephonic, maybe say more about your needs -- what instruments, what sort of music, what sort of gigs and so on.

My personal holy grail has been to get great-sounding APs in my mid-sized bar gigs and outdoor festivals. I got there, but it took more than $600.
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#2870151 - 08/01/17 06:03 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: cphollis]
SkiGuy777 Offline
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Agree about aiming the speaker at your head. I have a 1st gen JBL EON I use, can always hear it, can easily turn it up or down (reaching the volume knob without having to see it).

Some monitor speakers point up, but they're laying sideways on the floor. The JBL EON tips straight back, the horn is at the hop.


Edited by SkiGuy777 (08/01/17 06:05 AM)
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#2870155 - 08/01/17 06:20 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: SkiGuy777]
Jazzooo Offline
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Have you considered the Spacestation SS3? One of the most attractive aspects to me is that everyone onstage can usually hear me fine without it going into the monitor system.

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#2870164 - 08/01/17 06:46 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: SkiGuy777]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: SkiGuy777
Agree about aiming the speaker at your head. I have a 1st gen JBL EON I use, can always hear it, can easily turn it up or down (reaching the volume knob without having to see it).

Some monitor speakers point up, but they're laying sideways on the floor. The JBL EON tips straight back, the horn is at the hop.


Interesting... because I do not lean the Eon 15.. just plant it standing up..
I have seldom put it on a stand... but I will never forget the time I did with the aforementioned vocalist. usually I do not like to share my amp with a singer, but the JBL on a stand just sounded right even with a singer!
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#2870165 - 08/01/17 06:52 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: I-missRichardTee]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB
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#2870166 - 08/01/17 06:55 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Jazzooo]
Rusty Mike Offline
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I only have experience with the QSC K10 and K8, and have come to 2 conclusions:

1. They do sound better on stands, particularly for AP reproduction (I use those short Yorkville stands)
2. They sound better from 5 feet away than from 6 inches away

There is something about the way they project; they fill a room. I've had other people play my piano as a I walked around the room. It's amazing to me how consistent the volume is across several distances. But, I had one next to my ear one night, and had an awful time hearing it - they are simply not designed to be spot monitors, but rather to project out.

We just ran an experiment with the fusion band. We ran keys, sax and drum overheads through the K8's as mains, with K10's as floor monitors. One K10 supported the sax and guitar players, while the other fed back to bass and drums. We set the K8's back a bit, about midway downstage. We have no vocalists, and the sax player's mic is on pretty low gain since it's mostly for effects and ambience, so feedback is not a problem. Bass, guitar and bass drum do not use the PA, although we're thinking about running a bass drum mic into an old JBL EON 15 for presence.

I use a Mackie SRM150 mounted to my keyboard stand as my personal monitor; it's only keys running through it and nothing else. We set an overall level for the room, and I adjust the SRM to my needs afterward. Everyone is happy.

As a keyboard amp, I'm happy with the K8, and happier when I use 2 of them. I just bought a second one as the dealers were closing them out due to the K.2 series.

I have used the K's as stage monitors when we use a FOH system. As I said above, the trick is to put them on a stand and set them back a bit. I usually give FOH a feed right out of the back of the speaker; no DI required. I usually give them one of the channels and not the sum, so my stage volume setting has no impact on the feed to them.

And a shout out to Connie's Covers. Connie is an eBay dealer who makes custom fit covers out of moving blanket material. I like the slip on covers better than the expensive QSC carry bags. Affordable and protective, and she's a very nice lady. I have no affiliation with her, other than being a satisfied customer.
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#2870167 - 08/01/17 07:06 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Rusty Mike]
cphollis Offline
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"I like my Jeep". "I like my sports car". "I like my minivan". "You should check out my SUV". And so on.

All useful information about how people feel about their transportation, but hard to evaluate without context, yes?

What kind of music are you playing, what instruments, what sort of venues, what are you trying to achieve, etc. I do my best to provide complete context before handing out amplification advice.

Maybe my advice is bad (or good) but at least the reader can evaluate what I'm trying to achieve, and compare that with their own situation.

Cheers!
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#2870176 - 08/01/17 07:57 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: cphollis]
Markay Offline
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Well the OP did list what he has owned and what he did, or didn't like about them, specifically mentioned AP, with a target price of $600 or less.

In that price range if it satisfies him for AP I think it will do pretty well with everything else.

I "like" my ZLX's but the OP doesn't hence the suggestion of the QSC's which in IMNSHO have different tonal balance to the ZLX.

Until the OP gets back I guess it is on topic to suggest a powered speaker that people like for AP.
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#2870184 - 08/01/17 08:24 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Markay]
The Real MC Offline
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I've been happy with the series II Bose 802 and (mandatory!) 802C processor I bought back in 1990. Have yet to hear a keyboard monitor that sounds as good as these.

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#2870185 - 08/01/17 08:26 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Markay]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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cphollis
I have played tens of thousands of gigs on the Eon, in many different situations
I do not wish to create an argument, but rather discuss what kinds of context you are suggesting; given what Markay already noted.
I do not quite get this distinction you are making.
Just to play devil's advocate, in the interest of learning for all:
Don't we want our AP's to sound in such a manner as they facilitate whatever piano music we might be playing, whether in a loud cover band, or a trio, or solo?

Can you provide 3 contexts that boil down to three different models for amplification?
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#2870186 - 08/01/17 08:30 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: I-missRichardTee]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Let me go even further with this..

OP said he hated how a amp made his nord sound. This brings to my mind a cool opportunity to share opinions about matching an instrument with an amp. speaker choice

For instance

B3 clones what sucks, what is ok, what kills?

Rhodes?

AP sounds

Strings?

Vocals?

Drum?

Other?


Edited by I-missRichardTee (08/01/17 08:31 AM)
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#2870197 - 08/01/17 09:25 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
Behringer 208D, the first, the cheapest, and with the benefit of hindsight also the best. ...
Honestly, I'm not kidding about the Behringer. To me, it sounds better than all the others, at half the price, and oddly it goes louder than most as well. Proof positive that the advertised power ratings are meaningless.
Point is, I'd prefer not to bring a mixer; I schlep enough as it is, so I'd really rather have something that can accommodate two or even three inputs.

I agree that the B208D is surprisingly decent for what it is. However, the EV ZXa1 sounds better (esp. for piano), gives you more volume and bass, has two inputs, and doesn't weigh terribly more (19 lbs vs 15 lbs). Up from there is the QSC K8.2 (NOT the original K8, IMO).
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#2870212 - 08/01/17 10:20 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: AnotherScott]
J. Dan Offline
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Side note on the K series - different models have different dispersions.

K8 - 105° (conical)
K10 - 90° (conical)
K12 - 75° (conical)

By comparison, the Eon 610 is 110° x 60°.

As others have mentioned, the further you are away from the K series the more even and dispersed the sound - this would apply more to the K10 than the K8. Add to that, the fact that the angle of the K10 is such that, when standing, it needs to be about 6 feet away to be pointing at you head and not your knees.

I agree with DB that the Line6 speakers sound nice, though I haven't gigged with them, only rehearse.

Surprised nobody has chimed in with the Yamaha DXR's.


Edit: Looking over the specs of some of the models listed by the OP. The Behringer lists a max SPL of 113dB which is quite a bit lower than any of the others. The JBL Eon 610 that didn't go loud enough lists a max SPL of 124dB. While specifications can be manipulated to some degree, that is a large enough difference that I have a hard time believing the Behringer goes louder than the JBL. Perhaps the JBL needed more gain at the input?


Edited by J. Dan (08/01/17 10:25 AM)
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#2870213 - 08/01/17 10:22 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: AnotherScott]
jamienewman Offline
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Maybe somewhat OT: There's a bunch of boutique companies that makes amplifiers for bass players that are incredibly light, incredibly powerful, and have an array of tone control options that can then be paired with a passive cabinet or two of the player's choice. Why isn't there at least boutique manufacturer making a lightweight, powerful, stereo amp with tone controls designed specifically for keyboard players that could be used with a pair of passive speakers?

This isn't merely a rhetorical question. Is there a good reason why such an amp doesn't exist?

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#2870215 - 08/01/17 10:31 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: jamienewman]
p19978 Offline
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I used a JBL Eon G2 for years: loved it!

However, I recently traded it for a Yamaha DBR10. Love the sound, and it weighs about half of the JBL, while still providing the db's needed to play in a loud rock band.

They're $299 at Sam Ash in Cincinnati.

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#2870221 - 08/01/17 10:53 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Rusty Mike]
miden Offline
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Also, I ahve been impressed with the JBL EON 1. I have a pair and I can say the Pianoteq, EP4 and Sampletank libraries sound really sweet. As well as vocals. I too have tried all those you mentioned and found all to be a little "lacking", for me.
The EON1's are also pretty well priced.
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#2870232 - 08/01/17 11:23 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Dave Bryce]
Six-string-man Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB




I PM'd DB three years ago, for advice on amplification for my Crumar Mojo. He recommended the L2T, and I bought one. It is far and away the most amazing speaker I have ever heard. I will never get rid of it.


SSM
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#2870237 - 08/01/17 11:27 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Six-string-man]
RABid Offline
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EV's tend to be bright.
Nord's tend to be harsh.
Not a good combination. It can be fixed with a decent EQ.
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#2870242 - 08/01/17 11:35 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: miden]
rockinroller Offline
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I bought a Yamaha DXR12 a few months ago after experimenting with just about every powered speaker and combo amp made since the 1970s. I have to say that IMO it's the best all-around self contained output for my keys (two Kurz's, one primarily for AP's and other synth sounds plus LH bass, and the other my dedicated Hammond clone) that I've used.
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#2870244 - 08/01/17 11:39 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: jamienewman]
JazzPiano88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamienewman
Maybe somewhat OT: There's a bunch of boutique companies that makes amplifiers for bass players that are incredibly light, incredibly powerful, and have an array of tone control options that can then be paired with a passive cabinet or two of the player's choice. Why isn't there at least boutique manufacturer making a lightweight, powerful, stereo amp with tone controls designed specifically for keyboard players that could be used with a pair of passive speakers?

This isn't merely a rhetorical question. Is there a good reason why such an amp doesn't exist?

I don't think there is much of a market for this. People headed this route of stereo passive speakers encompass such a wide range of requirements that the device you describe wouldn't have much of a market. People usually use a vanilla stereo PA (these can be lightweight) passive full range cabinets and a mixer to provide tonal adjustments and incorporate effects with enough channels to allow N stereo keyboards. I used this back in the 90s before the powered PA speaker became popular.

The closest thing to what you suggest would be one of those stereo powered mixer cinder blocks covered in felt for an all-in-one PA.
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#2870250 - 08/01/17 12:06 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: JazzPiano88]
timwat Offline
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Perhaps an area of exploration is the seemingly recent proliferation of FRFR (Full Range, Flat Response) powered cabinets designed to mate with those new modeling guitar amps.

I remember hearing the Atomic CLR was a good match for keyboard players (I've never tried one though), because what a guitar modeling amp needs is a flat reproduction of all the digital magic the amp is supposed to be performing.
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#2870251 - 08/01/17 12:08 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: JazzPiano88]
tfort Offline
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Zephonic - have you tried the SpaceStation? They are appearing used on the classifieds here for less than $600, and are frequently considered to be good amplification for the money. I'm leaning toward getting one fairly soon, even though it'd be mostly used for AP rather than sounds with more stereo effect.


Edited by tfort (08/01/17 01:50 PM)
Edit Reason: typo - wrote EP, meant AP.

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#2870253 - 08/01/17 12:11 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: tfort]
DanL Offline
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Originally Posted By: tfort
Zephonic - have you tried the SpaceStation? They are appearing used on the classifieds here for less than $600, and are frequently considered to be good amplification for the money. I'm leaning toward getting one fairly soon, even though it'd be mostly used for EP rather than sounds with more stereo effect.


You almost have to have a stereo signal for the SS3. Otherwise all you get is the front speaker sounding.
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#2870255 - 08/01/17 12:15 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: JazzPiano88]
WesG Offline
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If you really liked the Behringer that much - why not add a second input?

You could eliminate the mic input and drop another TRS jack in its place. Merge the grounds and run the signal through decoupling caps and mixing resistors. Then you just use the knobs on your boards to control their relative levels.

FWIW, I am extremely pleased with my Yorkville NX55Ps in every regard except weight. Where they are still pretty good for what they are. And they are *durable*.

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#2870259 - 08/01/17 12:24 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: DanL]
tfort Offline
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Originally Posted By: DanL

You almost have to have a stereo signal for the SS3. Otherwise all you get is the front speaker sounding.


Agreed. I need to hear how well the SS Lite does for AP with some stereo effects added to get the benefit of the M/S technology; that's why I haven't bought one already.

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#2870263 - 08/01/17 12:40 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: JazzPiano88]
zephonic Online   content
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Thanks all for chiming in.

I guess I wasn't all that clear about my needs and how I use it, so here goes:

99% of the time I use it in wedge position, connecting two keyboards directly to the inputs (dual mono), and take the line out (XLR) to the FOH. I use the NordPiano on the bottom, with either a Korg Krome 73 on top, or my laptop running GigPerformer/Omnisphere/Kontakt/Expand!2/Talkbox with a Roland Jupiter 50 as controller/audio interface.


The Presonus sounds good, but it has a narrow sweet spot. On bigger stages, this is not a problem as I can position it accordingly, but on smaller stages I have to put it closer than ideal, which makes it hard to hear. Also, it doesn't like to be pushed much. What I have noticed with this speaker and the EV ZLX is that they are generally happier when driven from a mixer.

The Behringer B208D is pretty indifferent to what feeds it; a true omnivore, and it really cuts through.

I used to own a pair of EON15G2's back in Kenya, loved those. But I always used a mixer then. Now I just want to plug in directly to the amp.

The Spacestation seems cool, but only has a single stereo input. If it had two stereo inputs and direct outs, I'd definitely want to check it out.


I wonder if I should just try something completely different, like the Schertler amps I mentioned? There is a used one for sale on Reverb: https://reverb.com/item/5836069-sr-techn...D_BwE&pla=1

Anybody used those?


I'm gonna see if I can find a Line 6 L2t in one of our local music stores. And maybe the DXR as well.


edit:

Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

I agree that the B208D is surprisingly decent for what it is. However, the EV ZXa1 sounds better (esp. for piano), gives you more volume and bass, has two inputs, and doesn't weigh terribly more (19 lbs vs 15 lbs). Up from there is the QSC K8.2 (NOT the original K8, IMO).


It has two inputs, but one is a mic input. Only one line input. I did like how it sounded back then, but the input thing is why I went with the ZLX.


Edited by zephonic (08/01/17 12:55 PM)
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#2870268 - 08/01/17 12:55 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: rockinroller]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: rockinroller
I bought a Yamaha DXR12 a few months ago after experimenting with just about every powered speaker and combo amp made since the 1970s. I have to say that IMO it's the best all-around self contained output for my keys (two Kurz's, one primarily for AP's and other synth sounds plus LH bass, and the other my dedicated Hammond clone) that I've used.


DB mentioned Line 6 - had you tried that as well?
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#2870271 - 08/01/17 12:58 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: AnotherScott]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: zephonic
Behringer 208D, the first, the cheapest, and with the benefit of hindsight also the best. ...
Honestly, I'm not kidding about the Behringer. To me, it sounds better than all the others, at half the price, and oddly it goes louder than most as well. Proof positive that the advertised power ratings are meaningless.
Point is, I'd prefer not to bring a mixer; I schlep enough as it is, so I'd really rather have something that can accommodate two or even three inputs.

I agree that the B208D is surprisingly decent for what it is. However, the EV ZXa1 sounds better (esp. for piano), gives you more volume and bass, has two inputs, and doesn't weigh terribly more (19 lbs vs 15 lbs). Up from there is the QSC K8.2 (NOT the original K8, IMO).


Did I miss something from QSC? There is an updated version of K series, and it sounds appreciably....... what, better, louder, lighter?
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#2870272 - 08/01/17 01:08 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: I-missRichardTee]
cphollis Offline
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All of the above. Well, not lighter.

I did a review of the new K8.2 a while back, posted it here. Major upgrade to the already-popular K8s in almost every dimension, especially power, bass and sound quality. The same should be true for K10.2 and K12.2 as they share the same platform.

Personally, I think they deliver maybe 80%+ of what my RCF TT08-a units deliver for a fraction of the cost. And I predict they're gonna be really popular with this crowd.

Lots of positive anecdotes already on the larger K10.2
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#2870275 - 08/01/17 01:17 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: J. Dan]
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Are the new QSC K's really that different from the first gen? I remember those sounded a little dark (i.e. muffled). But maybe that would pair well with the Nord, actually.



Originally Posted By: J. Dan

Edit: Looking over the specs of some of the models listed by the OP. The Behringer lists a max SPL of 113dB which is quite a bit lower than any of the others. The JBL Eon 610 that didn't go loud enough lists a max SPL of 124dB. While specifications can be manipulated to some degree, that is a large enough difference that I have a hard time believing the Behringer goes louder than the JBL. Perhaps the JBL needed more gain at the input?


I know, but that's just my experience. I think it is more a matter of voicing/tonal character. The B208D really cuts through. Maybe also because it wasn't designed as a FOH speaker?
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#2870278 - 08/01/17 01:36 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
Are the new QSC K's really that different from the first gen? I remember those sounded a little dark (i.e. muffled). But maybe that would pair well with the Nord, actually.



Actually, the main complaint is that the Ks get piercing when they get loud.
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#2870281 - 08/01/17 01:47 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: cphollis]
El Lobo Offline
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
"I like my Jeep". "I like my sports car". "I like my minivan". "You should check out my SUV". And so on.
I love my QSC K8's. I put a pair on low stands, pointed away from each other. They have such a wide dispersion, everybody on stage and the venue can hear. When there's FOH sound, they take direct from one of the speakers, then the K8's act as stage monitors for me and the band.

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#2870286 - 08/01/17 02:31 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: El Lobo]
midinut Offline
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Not to be Mr. Obvious here, but Amazon still has the B208D you seem to love so much listed as being available from 3 different sellers.

I have a B212A and two B215Ds and agree they sound great for the $$$

FWIW, I also have a SSv3 which I adore as well. If you find it not loud enough, throw a tiny mixer in between to help (or maybe a Key Largo?).

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#2870299 - 08/01/17 04:16 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: rockinroller]
MotiDave Offline
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Originally Posted By: rockinroller
I bought a Yamaha DXR12 a few months ago after experimenting with just about every powered speaker and combo amp made since the 1970s. I have to say that IMO it's the best all-around self contained output for my keys (two Kurz's, one primarily for AP's and other synth sounds plus LH bass, and the other my dedicated Hammond clone) that I've used.

never owned one or gigged with it, I run an ELX112P which I bought based on steep discount price and I like it. But when I demo'd units with an mp3 player of various things I'd play, I really liked the DXR. alot. Much preferred over the K-equivalent to my subjective ears. warmer, lusher fuller, yet still very clear. Not as shrill to my ears.

An ELX112P can be had for just over half the price of a DXR or K - and I've liked it alot since I got it. I prefer it to the original K. no regrets but just like everyone here ... I wonder about the one I don't have smile

I have not yet heard any Kx.2's ...
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#2870310 - 08/01/17 06:07 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: MotiDave]
J. Dan Offline
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You're only able to get $600 for your kingdom?
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#2870340 - 08/02/17 12:07 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: midinut]
zephonic Online   content
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Originally Posted By: midinut
Not to be Mr. Obvious here, but Amazon still has the B208D you seem to love so much listed as being available from 3 different sellers.

I have a B212A and two B215Ds and agree they sound great for the $$$



Yeah, I thought about it, but I'd really rather have something with two inputs, and not schlep a mixer around.
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#2870361 - 08/02/17 05:00 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: MotiDave]
rockinroller Offline
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I paid $500 shipped for an open box DXR12 (full factory 7 year warranty!) Bought a nice cover off Reverb for $40 and IMO it's the best one-speaker live performer rig under $600 that I've ever owned.
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#2870362 - 08/02/17 05:04 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: I-missRichardTee]
rockinroller Offline
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I used a Line 6 (not mine) at a fill in gig (I think it was their STAGESOURCE L3s) and while it seemed sufficiently powerful as a stand alone, it didn't impress me--at least compared to the DXR (which seems "punchier") and the fact that the DXR was 1/2 the cost (which probably influenced my impression!).
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#2870393 - 08/02/17 07:33 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
MuzikTeechur Offline
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Currently enjoying a Traynor K4 which sits in wedge position and will part your hair in the back. Sounds good... I don't use the "tube" option (at all). Four stereo inputs, and stereo XLR outs on the back. This is REALLY a great amp, and better if you can find one slightly used as I did. Only drawback was that the PO was a smoker in his home and the amp initially smelled of smoke - all gone now.

However; when I first started with this band 15 years ago, I bought a Behringer KX1200 amp. 4 inputs, XLR out, etc. (not stereo). I heard bad things about B. on this forum and others, but that thing was a WORKHORSE and I kept going back to it. I even bought a second one in case that one died (never happened and I sold the back-up). Plenty loud enough, and decent sound quality. About the size and design of a Peavey KB100 (which is, I think, the design they ripped off for the KX1200).
I put that amp out to pasture in my HS Music Room - and guitarists and bass players have been flailing on it for 5 years now and it STILL takes the punishment.
I later attempted to upgrade to the Behringer K3000fx and was very disappointed - channels cutting out, wimpy sound, etc.
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#2870422 - 08/02/17 09:27 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: MuzikTeechur]
Theo Verelst Offline
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If I would play live regularly, which I momentarily haven't done at all even, I'd think a couple of QSC K12s would, from my hearing them, do for a general amplification job, unless you'd need to act as a PA for Megadeth. Preferably a 3-way system, and maybe a sub would be desirable for the type of medium fidelity a lot of keyboardists should be /are looking for, because you can get used to the phase lag and averaging frequency gap between the woofer and too large tweeter, but it does get old soon.

Also, it could pay to get some cheap bu good amp modules and look around for speakers and make some enclosures yourself. While I type that, I know that's probably not realistic for most, but some can. Also, it depends on what type of show you do, if there's help to carry and build-up and lots of keyboards that need a good deep sound, and there's no PA, you may want some bigger JBL boxes or so, and some hefty (switched supply) amps that aren't all too pricey together when compared to a lot of good workstations, and sound at least no so like "plastic on poles" as everybody seems to muddle their way through.

T.

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#2870443 - 08/02/17 10:40 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Theo Verelst]
SkiGuy777 Offline
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I'm exactly the same as the OP in what I do. I have 2 keyboards, used to have a little 12 channeel Mackie Mixer for the 2 inputs and line out but it broke (distortion). My Hammond XK-2 has a line in so I tandem both keyboards together. The JBL Eon goes behind me pointing up and I can hear it. I send the line out from my Hammond to my Ventilator and both signals go to FOH.

The band leader doesn't like this because he wants a signal from each keyboard. So when we recently played our 3DN gig, I was using his equipment, his monitor which is a JBL PX series on it's side directly behind me. They took a signal from each keyboard, I made sure each was at the same level and I had plenty of head room (meaning he turned up my monitor loud from the start). This is important because keyboards sound loud when no one is playing but once the band comes up they get lost. I like to have the monitor behind me in the middle so my ears get blasted equally and I do wear ear plugs.

If one of your keyboards doesn't have a line in that's always on, then I guess you'd need a little 2 channel mixer, or get an amp/monitor that can tilt back that has the usual 4 inputs.


Edited by SkiGuy777 (08/02/17 10:46 AM)
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#2870456 - 08/02/17 11:11 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Six-string-man]
allan_evett Offline
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Originally Posted By: Six-string-man
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB




I PM'd DB three years ago, for advice on amplification for my Crumar Mojo. He recommended the L2T, and I bought one. It is far and away the most amazing speaker I have ever heard. I will never get rid of it.


SSM


Still like my Yamaha DXR12, but the lack of an easily accessible mixing section means I always need some kind of mixer - even to adjust stage levels if my keys are DI'd directly.
So I picked up a Line 6 L2t in April of this year. Not only does it have several thoughtfully designed features - two different kick-back option, 3-band mid-sweepable EQ per channel, several listening curve options, plus more, but it sounds great; plenty of power and clarity. I highly recommend it.
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#2870498 - 08/02/17 04:28 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: allan_evett]
LX88 Offline
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I have often thought about putting together a stereo keyboard amp rig for possible commercial consideration.

There are thousands of guitar amps out there and not much for keyboards.

Recently - for organ clone primarily I have been experimenting with medium powered home stereo amps used with ( somewhat ) full range speakers. I get pretty good results and seem to get adequate power if I am in stereo.

These amps are generally Yamaha and Dennon etc. with bass and treble knobs. Occasionally they might have a 5 or 7 band EQ.

If I needed more power I would go with a power amp/ preamp combo. Or possibly a power amp /mixer. But a lot of gigs I do these days require lower volume.

I have been using either JBL D131 or EV Force 12 inch speakers - full range, no tweeter.

For organ clone it gets all the frequencies. I rarely use the last/ highest drawbar... instead I might do 888000800 -it's just my preference.

Keep in mind Hammond tone cabinets never used any " high frequency" drivers. Just a lot of 12's and 15's and occasionally 10's in the cheaper models.

So if the amp/ speakers I use can do organ they can generally do EP's. Suitcase Rhodes amps also used full range speakers as I recall.

Acoustic piano is another matter. In this case I would love to try a satellite/ subwoofer combination, and once again eliminate high frequency drivers, which cause nothing but problems with shrillness for me.

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#2870509 - 08/02/17 05:43 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: LX88]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: LX88
I have often thought about putting together a stereo keyboard amp rig for possible commercial consideration.

There are thousands of guitar amps out there and not much for keyboards.

Recently - for organ clone primarily I have been experimenting with medium powered home stereo amps used with ( somewhat ) full range speakers. I get pretty good results and seem to get adequate power if I am in stereo.

These amps are generally Yamaha and Dennon etc. with bass and treble knobs. Occasionally they might have a 5 or 7 band EQ.

If I needed more power I would go with a power amp/ preamp combo. Or possibly a power amp /mixer. But a lot of gigs I do these days require lower volume.

I have been using either JBL D131 or EV Force 12 inch speakers - full range, no tweeter.

For organ clone it gets all the frequencies. I rarely use the last/ highest drawbar... instead I might do 888000800 -it's just my preference.

Keep in mind Hammond tone cabinets never used any " high frequency" drivers. Just a lot of 12's and 15's and occasionally 10's in the cheaper models.

So if the amp/ speakers I use can do organ they can generally do EP's. Suitcase Rhodes amps also used full range speakers as I recall.

Acoustic piano is another matter. In this case I would love to try a satellite/ subwoofer combination, and once again eliminate high frequency drivers, which cause nothing but problems with shrillness for me.


You've described an organ or EP amp, not a keyboard amp. Synth and AP require full range flat response amplification.
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#2870959 - 08/04/17 05:56 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: mate stubb]
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My conclusion is that these plastic powered DSP speakers are great all-rounders, but they're generally unsuitable for AP.

I have learned that Westwood Music sells Schertler amps, but they are currently out of stock. As soon as they get a new batch in, I'm gonna go check them out.
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#2870962 - 08/04/17 06:08 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Agree. Lackluster tone, detail and imaging. They all do go LOUD and have more BASS , which seems to be the criteria.

Let me know how those amps sound with the Nord. I do get tired of all the patch and ac cords.
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#2870963 - 08/04/17 06:31 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
cphollis Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
My conclusion is that these plastic powered DSP speakers are great all-rounders, but they're generally unsuitable for AP.

I have learned that Westwood Music sells Schertler amps, but they are currently out of stock. As soon as they get a new batch in, I'm gonna go check them out.


No arguing that wood cabinets are usually preferable, but ... I think there's more than just black and white here.

For starters, there's this weight thing. Make no mistake, I love my wooden PA units (RCF TT08-as, QSC KW153s, FA 12acs, etc.). The RCFs are light enough. Everything else in my wooden portfolio is a bit on the heavy side.

The other example is advanced tech in mass-market units. Maybe you haven't had a chance to check out the new QSC K.2 units, but they bring *serious* game on electronics, DSP, etc. in a mass-market plastic cabinet.

At the end of the day, all that really matters is how they sound, right?

I continue to argue that my plastic K8.2 units bring 80% of the game of the RCF TT08-a units for a fraction of the price.

I don't de-facto consider plastic unsatisfactory for APs. Plenty of plastic PA units out there that sound like crap with APs. It's just harder to do right smile

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#2870970 - 08/04/17 06:55 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: cphollis]
zephonic Online   content
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Originally Posted By: cphollis

At the end of the day, all that really matters is how they sound, right?

I continue to argue that my plastic K8.2 units bring 80% of the game of the RCF TT08-a units for a fraction of the price.

I don't de-facto consider plastic unsatisfactory for APs. Plenty of plastic PA units out there that sound like crap with APs. It's just harder to do right smile


Sure, I don't mean to imply all plastic cabs are shite. In fact, some of the best studio monitors like Genelecs are made of composites or aluminum.

I'm just concluding that all the ones I have had sound more or less the same, with the cheapest (B208D) actually sounding better than speakers three times their price and size.

I'll check out those new QSC's. I tried the old ones, and didn't think they sounded all that different.


I'm beginning to suspect that the preamps have something to do with it, as I have noticed sometimes things sound better when my keyboards are plugged into the FOH mixer directly, and they give me an aux send back to my speaker. It can take the edge of, reduce harshness; but not every time.
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#2870971 - 08/04/17 06:58 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
cphollis Offline
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Preamps and DIs definitely help smile
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#2870975 - 08/04/17 07:05 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: cphollis]
zephonic Online   content
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Yeah, but if at all possible I'd like to keep schlep to minimum.

I move around a lot, and being able to plug in directly to the speaker and sending a single line out to the FOH is definitely nice.
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#2870977 - 08/04/17 07:07 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
I'm just concluding that all the ones I have had sound more or less the same, with the cheapest (B208D) actually sounding better than speakers three times their price and size.

Again, ZXa1 sounds much, much better. (I own both.)

Like you, though, I was unimpressed by the QSC K8. The new 8.2 is much better.
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#2870980 - 08/04/17 07:15 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: AnotherScott]
cphollis Offline
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The frustrating part for me is that I occasionally cruise these other keyboard forums, and there are the guys touting their low-end KC amps, or a StagePas or whatever low-end stuff they've run across. One guy was proud that he'd found a pair of low-end Fender amps to play through in stereo.

OK, maybe if all I did was distorted EPs smile

Hey, if that's all you can afford, more power to you, but just don't expect to sound half-decent. We spend decent money on our boards. Why not spend decent money on amplification to be heard?

BTW, the EV ZAX-1 brings serious game for what it does. Just sayin'
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#2870982 - 08/04/17 07:17 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: AnotherScott]
zephonic Online   content
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Registered: 10/06/05
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: zephonic
I'm just concluding that all the ones I have had sound more or less the same, with the cheapest (B208D) actually sounding better than speakers three times their price and size.

Again, ZXa1 sounds much, much better. (I own both.)

Like you, though, I was unimpressed by the QSC K8. The new 8.2 is much better.


Yeah, I agree about the ZXA1, but like I said:

Originally Posted By: zephonic
It has two inputs, but one is a mic input. Only one line input. I did like how it sounded back then, but the input thing is why I went with the ZLX.
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#2871841 - 08/09/17 10:58 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Dave Bryce]
RABid Offline
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Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12453
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB


Do you use one or two?
Did you consider the L3t?
Do you use the mixer?
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#2871845 - 08/09/17 11:21 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: RABid]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Two.
No - too big.
Depends on the gig/configuration. If I have them in a V behind me or stacked vertically as a column, there's no need - two keyboards, two inputs per speaker wihich can be configured as stereo or dual mono, four channel snake. If I do one vertically on a pole and the other one on the floor (sometimes in front of me), then yes. I send the mixer output to the floor unit, and a digital feed to the one on the pole.

dB
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#2871847 - 08/09/17 11:23 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: RABid]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
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Loc: Washington DC
Another satisfied ZXA1 owner here.

I would imagine speakers that do not have mixers built in (eg. Roland KC amps that have 4 inputs) would be lighter than the ones that don't, such as the ZXA1.

I'm sure there's a decent range of lightweight mixers out there to keep the schlep factor to a minimum - light enough that ZXA1 plus mixer is still going to be lighter than a PA w/ built in mixer.
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#2871849 - 08/09/17 11:29 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: GovernorSilver]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
KCFFL Champ '14, '16
10k Club

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 19429
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: zephonic
my kingdom for an amp

Wait...you have a kingdom? idk grin

dB
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rockit ==> ReverbNation • SoundCloud <==rawk


Professional affiliations: Cloud Microphones • Crumar/GSi • elysia • Reverb Foundry • Roswell Pro Audio

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#2871852 - 08/09/17 11:47 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Dave Bryce]
Raymb1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 387
Loc: Sterling, VA
I've had a Center Point Stereo SSV3 for about 1 1/2 yrs. I play mainly with jazz groups. The SSV3 been great for my application.
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#2871856 - 08/09/17 12:16 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Dave Bryce]
MotiDave Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1794
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: zephonic
my kingdom for an amp

Wait...you have a kingdom? idk grin

dB


lets breach the walls and storm the palace!
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#2871862 - 08/09/17 12:31 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: RABid]
RABid Offline
10k Club

Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12453
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB


They must be popular. Sold out at most online stores.
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#2871889 - 08/09/17 02:31 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Dave Bryce]
zephonic Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 3854
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: zephonic
my kingdom for an amp

Wait...you have a kingdom? idk grin




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#2871912 - 08/09/17 05:30 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: RABid]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
KCFFL Champ '14, '16
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Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 19429
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: RABid
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB


They must be popular. Sold out at most online stores.

I suspect it's possible that when Yamaha acquired Line 6, some of the emphasis may have fallen away from their PA venture.

dB
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#2872251 - 08/11/17 04:29 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Dave Bryce]
Theo Verelst Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/27/10
Posts: 3971
Small and light are the enemy of rich and deep sounding.

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#2872252 - 08/11/17 04:35 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: MotiDave]
Synthoid Offline
10k Club

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 10258
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: MotiDave
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: zephonic
my kingdom for an amp

Wait...you have a kingdom? idk grin

dB


lets breach the walls and storm the palace!



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#2926835 - 05/13/18 04:49 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Dave Bryce]
RABid Offline
10k Club

Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 12453
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: RABid
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB


They must be popular. Sold out at most online stores.

I suspect it's possible that when Yamaha acquired Line 6, some of the emphasis may have fallen away from their PA venture.

dB


Sweetwater has the full range back in stock now.
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#2926853 - 05/13/18 06:30 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: RABid]
bill bosco Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/14
Posts: 390
i think they are popular with guitar players now . i just traded one
in for a k8.2 . i prefer the QSC cab over the line6 especially for organ. just picked up a second one

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#2926856 - 05/13/18 06:59 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: bill bosco]
Mark Schmieder Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 8760
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
The good thing about the K8.2 is that it's cheap and light and a small investment for something as important as organ. Considering it myself for my XK-1c.

I've only heard the older version, but generally prefer QSC's 8" and 10" to their 12" and 15" speakers, due to mid-honk in the larger ones. Most of us here (and on other forums) prefer E/V for acoustic piano sounds, but they sound harsh and muffled for B3. Completely opposite sounds between piano and B3, so that's no surprise.


Edited by Mark Schmieder (05/13/18 07:01 PM)
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#2927243 - 05/15/18 09:14 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
RogerL Offline
Member

Registered: 09/05/14
Posts: 11
Loc: California
I hope this isnt off topic but I was wondering if anyone has used or heard the new speaker made by Avante which was at NAMM 2018. It is a lot less expensive then say a QVC but I cant find any mention of it anywhere. Maybe you get what you pay for but curious is anyone recommends it

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#2927246 - 05/15/18 10:21 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: RogerL]
hardware Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 03/04/14
Posts: 1323
Loc: Macau
Another cheap cab is the Seismic Audio L Wave.
Just tried out their 8 inch powered cabs.
They sound really good, no off calibration making stereo samples phase.
I’m kind of shocked, and these have 4 years of DJs and bands using them.
165 bucks each brand new.
I don’t mind spending 4 or 5 times that much, just hope the sound is twice as good. If not 330 bucks is a sore dick deal.
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#2927279 - 05/16/18 04:56 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
kbrkr Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/17
Posts: 84
For my solo work, I use two LD Systems Maui 28 line array speakers in stereo on either side of me and behind. They have a tweeter on top, 8 mid range in the middle and a sub on the bottom and boy do they sound amazing. I just did a pre-mothers day gig in the jewelry dept of a well known department store and you could hear me from all over the store (120 degree dispersion).

For gigs with a sound man and FOH system, I just bring a single 12" Mackie Thump for monitoring and it sounds just fine. If I suspect the FOH system monitoring will be crap, I will bring both Mackies and run monitoring as stereo in case no one can hear me during the sound check.

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#2927424 - 05/16/18 09:59 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: kbrkr]
Randelph Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 468
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Was looking up the LD Stems Maui 28 and came across this at SW:
Turbo sound iNSPIRE iP500

They go for $499! And the reviews I read on their site express a lot of appreciation for the sound quality. At that price and easy schleppability, going stereo with array speakers is pretty affordable. Behringer owns Turbosound now.

Randy
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Roland Street Cube EX / QSC K10, K8.2 / SS V.3
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#2927431 - 05/16/18 10:59 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Randelph]
agitato Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/29/10
Posts: 322
Just recently ordered an ev zxa1-90, and key largo, to replace my k4, to run a kawai es4, vr-09 and microstation through. Hope I made a good choice.

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