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#2870268 - 08/01/17 12:55 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: rockinroller]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
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Loc: S. Ca. USA
Originally Posted By: rockinroller
I bought a Yamaha DXR12 a few months ago after experimenting with just about every powered speaker and combo amp made since the 1970s. I have to say that IMO it's the best all-around self contained output for my keys (two Kurz's, one primarily for AP's and other synth sounds plus LH bass, and the other my dedicated Hammond clone) that I've used.


DB mentioned Line 6 - had you tried that as well?
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#2870271 - 08/01/17 12:58 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: AnotherScott]
I-missRichardTee Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: zephonic
Behringer 208D, the first, the cheapest, and with the benefit of hindsight also the best. ...
Honestly, I'm not kidding about the Behringer. To me, it sounds better than all the others, at half the price, and oddly it goes louder than most as well. Proof positive that the advertised power ratings are meaningless.
Point is, I'd prefer not to bring a mixer; I schlep enough as it is, so I'd really rather have something that can accommodate two or even three inputs.

I agree that the B208D is surprisingly decent for what it is. However, the EV ZXa1 sounds better (esp. for piano), gives you more volume and bass, has two inputs, and doesn't weigh terribly more (19 lbs vs 15 lbs). Up from there is the QSC K8.2 (NOT the original K8, IMO).


Did I miss something from QSC? There is an updated version of K series, and it sounds appreciably....... what, better, louder, lighter?
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#2870272 - 08/01/17 01:08 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: I-missRichardTee]
cphollis Offline
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All of the above. Well, not lighter.

I did a review of the new K8.2 a while back, posted it here. Major upgrade to the already-popular K8s in almost every dimension, especially power, bass and sound quality. The same should be true for K10.2 and K12.2 as they share the same platform.

Personally, I think they deliver maybe 80%+ of what my RCF TT08-a units deliver for a fraction of the cost. And I predict they're gonna be really popular with this crowd.

Lots of positive anecdotes already on the larger K10.2
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#2870275 - 08/01/17 01:17 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: J. Dan]
zephonic Offline
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Are the new QSC K's really that different from the first gen? I remember those sounded a little dark (i.e. muffled). But maybe that would pair well with the Nord, actually.



Originally Posted By: J. Dan

Edit: Looking over the specs of some of the models listed by the OP. The Behringer lists a max SPL of 113dB which is quite a bit lower than any of the others. The JBL Eon 610 that didn't go loud enough lists a max SPL of 124dB. While specifications can be manipulated to some degree, that is a large enough difference that I have a hard time believing the Behringer goes louder than the JBL. Perhaps the JBL needed more gain at the input?


I know, but that's just my experience. I think it is more a matter of voicing/tonal character. The B208D really cuts through. Maybe also because it wasn't designed as a FOH speaker?
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#2870278 - 08/01/17 01:36 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
Are the new QSC K's really that different from the first gen? I remember those sounded a little dark (i.e. muffled). But maybe that would pair well with the Nord, actually.



Actually, the main complaint is that the Ks get piercing when they get loud.
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#2870281 - 08/01/17 01:47 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: cphollis]
El Lobo Offline
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Originally Posted By: cphollis
"I like my Jeep". "I like my sports car". "I like my minivan". "You should check out my SUV". And so on.
I love my QSC K8's. I put a pair on low stands, pointed away from each other. They have such a wide dispersion, everybody on stage and the venue can hear. When there's FOH sound, they take direct from one of the speakers, then the K8's act as stage monitors for me and the band.

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#2870286 - 08/01/17 02:31 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: El Lobo]
midinut Offline
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Not to be Mr. Obvious here, but Amazon still has the B208D you seem to love so much listed as being available from 3 different sellers.

I have a B212A and two B215Ds and agree they sound great for the $$$

FWIW, I also have a SSv3 which I adore as well. If you find it not loud enough, throw a tiny mixer in between to help (or maybe a Key Largo?).

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#2870299 - 08/01/17 04:16 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: rockinroller]
MotiDave Offline
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Originally Posted By: rockinroller
I bought a Yamaha DXR12 a few months ago after experimenting with just about every powered speaker and combo amp made since the 1970s. I have to say that IMO it's the best all-around self contained output for my keys (two Kurz's, one primarily for AP's and other synth sounds plus LH bass, and the other my dedicated Hammond clone) that I've used.

never owned one or gigged with it, I run an ELX112P which I bought based on steep discount price and I like it. But when I demo'd units with an mp3 player of various things I'd play, I really liked the DXR. alot. Much preferred over the K-equivalent to my subjective ears. warmer, lusher fuller, yet still very clear. Not as shrill to my ears.

An ELX112P can be had for just over half the price of a DXR or K - and I've liked it alot since I got it. I prefer it to the original K. no regrets but just like everyone here ... I wonder about the one I don't have smile

I have not yet heard any Kx.2's ...
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#2870310 - 08/01/17 06:07 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: MotiDave]
J. Dan Offline
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You're only able to get $600 for your kingdom?
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#2870340 - 08/02/17 12:07 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: midinut]
zephonic Offline
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Registered: 10/06/05
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Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: midinut
Not to be Mr. Obvious here, but Amazon still has the B208D you seem to love so much listed as being available from 3 different sellers.

I have a B212A and two B215Ds and agree they sound great for the $$$



Yeah, I thought about it, but I'd really rather have something with two inputs, and not schlep a mixer around.
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#2870361 - 08/02/17 05:00 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: MotiDave]
rockinroller Offline
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Loc: Motown
I paid $500 shipped for an open box DXR12 (full factory 7 year warranty!) Bought a nice cover off Reverb for $40 and IMO it's the best one-speaker live performer rig under $600 that I've ever owned.
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#2870362 - 08/02/17 05:04 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: I-missRichardTee]
rockinroller Offline
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Loc: Motown
I used a Line 6 (not mine) at a fill in gig (I think it was their STAGESOURCE L3s) and while it seemed sufficiently powerful as a stand alone, it didn't impress me--at least compared to the DXR (which seems "punchier") and the fact that the DXR was 1/2 the cost (which probably influenced my impression!).
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#2870393 - 08/02/17 07:33 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
MuzikTeechur Offline
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Registered: 07/30/08
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Currently enjoying a Traynor K4 which sits in wedge position and will part your hair in the back. Sounds good... I don't use the "tube" option (at all). Four stereo inputs, and stereo XLR outs on the back. This is REALLY a great amp, and better if you can find one slightly used as I did. Only drawback was that the PO was a smoker in his home and the amp initially smelled of smoke - all gone now.

However; when I first started with this band 15 years ago, I bought a Behringer KX1200 amp. 4 inputs, XLR out, etc. (not stereo). I heard bad things about B. on this forum and others, but that thing was a WORKHORSE and I kept going back to it. I even bought a second one in case that one died (never happened and I sold the back-up). Plenty loud enough, and decent sound quality. About the size and design of a Peavey KB100 (which is, I think, the design they ripped off for the KX1200).
I put that amp out to pasture in my HS Music Room - and guitarists and bass players have been flailing on it for 5 years now and it STILL takes the punishment.
I later attempted to upgrade to the Behringer K3000fx and was very disappointed - channels cutting out, wimpy sound, etc.
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#2870422 - 08/02/17 09:27 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: MuzikTeechur]
Theo Verelst Online   confused
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If I would play live regularly, which I momentarily haven't done at all even, I'd think a couple of QSC K12s would, from my hearing them, do for a general amplification job, unless you'd need to act as a PA for Megadeth. Preferably a 3-way system, and maybe a sub would be desirable for the type of medium fidelity a lot of keyboardists should be /are looking for, because you can get used to the phase lag and averaging frequency gap between the woofer and too large tweeter, but it does get old soon.

Also, it could pay to get some cheap bu good amp modules and look around for speakers and make some enclosures yourself. While I type that, I know that's probably not realistic for most, but some can. Also, it depends on what type of show you do, if there's help to carry and build-up and lots of keyboards that need a good deep sound, and there's no PA, you may want some bigger JBL boxes or so, and some hefty (switched supply) amps that aren't all too pricey together when compared to a lot of good workstations, and sound at least no so like "plastic on poles" as everybody seems to muddle their way through.

T.

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#2870443 - 08/02/17 10:40 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Theo Verelst]
SkiGuy777 Offline
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Registered: 02/19/17
Posts: 204
Loc: Plantation FL
I'm exactly the same as the OP in what I do. I have 2 keyboards, used to have a little 12 channeel Mackie Mixer for the 2 inputs and line out but it broke (distortion). My Hammond XK-2 has a line in so I tandem both keyboards together. The JBL Eon goes behind me pointing up and I can hear it. I send the line out from my Hammond to my Ventilator and both signals go to FOH.

The band leader doesn't like this because he wants a signal from each keyboard. So when we recently played our 3DN gig, I was using his equipment, his monitor which is a JBL PX series on it's side directly behind me. They took a signal from each keyboard, I made sure each was at the same level and I had plenty of head room (meaning he turned up my monitor loud from the start). This is important because keyboards sound loud when no one is playing but once the band comes up they get lost. I like to have the monitor behind me in the middle so my ears get blasted equally and I do wear ear plugs.

If one of your keyboards doesn't have a line in that's always on, then I guess you'd need a little 2 channel mixer, or get an amp/monitor that can tilt back that has the usual 4 inputs.


Edited by SkiGuy777 (08/02/17 10:46 AM)
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#2870456 - 08/02/17 11:11 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Six-string-man]
allan_evett Offline
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Registered: 03/18/09
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Originally Posted By: Six-string-man
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB




I PM'd DB three years ago, for advice on amplification for my Crumar Mojo. He recommended the L2T, and I bought one. It is far and away the most amazing speaker I have ever heard. I will never get rid of it.


SSM


Still like my Yamaha DXR12, but the lack of an easily accessible mixing section means I always need some kind of mixer - even to adjust stage levels if my keys are DI'd directly.
So I picked up a Line 6 L2t in April of this year. Not only does it have several thoughtfully designed features - two different kick-back option, 3-band mid-sweepable EQ per channel, several listening curve options, plus more, but it sounds great; plenty of power and clarity. I highly recommend it.
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#2870498 - 08/02/17 04:28 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: allan_evett]
LX88 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1937
I have often thought about putting together a stereo keyboard amp rig for possible commercial consideration.

There are thousands of guitar amps out there and not much for keyboards.

Recently - for organ clone primarily I have been experimenting with medium powered home stereo amps used with ( somewhat ) full range speakers. I get pretty good results and seem to get adequate power if I am in stereo.

These amps are generally Yamaha and Dennon etc. with bass and treble knobs. Occasionally they might have a 5 or 7 band EQ.

If I needed more power I would go with a power amp/ preamp combo. Or possibly a power amp /mixer. But a lot of gigs I do these days require lower volume.

I have been using either JBL D131 or EV Force 12 inch speakers - full range, no tweeter.

For organ clone it gets all the frequencies. I rarely use the last/ highest drawbar... instead I might do 888000800 -it's just my preference.

Keep in mind Hammond tone cabinets never used any " high frequency" drivers. Just a lot of 12's and 15's and occasionally 10's in the cheaper models.

So if the amp/ speakers I use can do organ they can generally do EP's. Suitcase Rhodes amps also used full range speakers as I recall.

Acoustic piano is another matter. In this case I would love to try a satellite/ subwoofer combination, and once again eliminate high frequency drivers, which cause nothing but problems with shrillness for me.

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#2870509 - 08/02/17 05:43 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: LX88]
mate stubb Offline
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Originally Posted By: LX88
I have often thought about putting together a stereo keyboard amp rig for possible commercial consideration.

There are thousands of guitar amps out there and not much for keyboards.

Recently - for organ clone primarily I have been experimenting with medium powered home stereo amps used with ( somewhat ) full range speakers. I get pretty good results and seem to get adequate power if I am in stereo.

These amps are generally Yamaha and Dennon etc. with bass and treble knobs. Occasionally they might have a 5 or 7 band EQ.

If I needed more power I would go with a power amp/ preamp combo. Or possibly a power amp /mixer. But a lot of gigs I do these days require lower volume.

I have been using either JBL D131 or EV Force 12 inch speakers - full range, no tweeter.

For organ clone it gets all the frequencies. I rarely use the last/ highest drawbar... instead I might do 888000800 -it's just my preference.

Keep in mind Hammond tone cabinets never used any " high frequency" drivers. Just a lot of 12's and 15's and occasionally 10's in the cheaper models.

So if the amp/ speakers I use can do organ they can generally do EP's. Suitcase Rhodes amps also used full range speakers as I recall.

Acoustic piano is another matter. In this case I would love to try a satellite/ subwoofer combination, and once again eliminate high frequency drivers, which cause nothing but problems with shrillness for me.


You've described an organ or EP amp, not a keyboard amp. Synth and AP require full range flat response amplification.
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#2870959 - 08/04/17 05:56 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: mate stubb]
zephonic Offline
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My conclusion is that these plastic powered DSP speakers are great all-rounders, but they're generally unsuitable for AP.

I have learned that Westwood Music sells Schertler amps, but they are currently out of stock. As soon as they get a new batch in, I'm gonna go check them out.
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#2870962 - 08/04/17 06:08 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Agree. Lackluster tone, detail and imaging. They all do go LOUD and have more BASS , which seems to be the criteria.

Let me know how those amps sound with the Nord. I do get tired of all the patch and ac cords.
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#2870963 - 08/04/17 06:31 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
cphollis Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
My conclusion is that these plastic powered DSP speakers are great all-rounders, but they're generally unsuitable for AP.

I have learned that Westwood Music sells Schertler amps, but they are currently out of stock. As soon as they get a new batch in, I'm gonna go check them out.


No arguing that wood cabinets are usually preferable, but ... I think there's more than just black and white here.

For starters, there's this weight thing. Make no mistake, I love my wooden PA units (RCF TT08-as, QSC KW153s, FA 12acs, etc.). The RCFs are light enough. Everything else in my wooden portfolio is a bit on the heavy side.

The other example is advanced tech in mass-market units. Maybe you haven't had a chance to check out the new QSC K.2 units, but they bring *serious* game on electronics, DSP, etc. in a mass-market plastic cabinet.

At the end of the day, all that really matters is how they sound, right?

I continue to argue that my plastic K8.2 units bring 80% of the game of the RCF TT08-a units for a fraction of the price.

I don't de-facto consider plastic unsatisfactory for APs. Plenty of plastic PA units out there that sound like crap with APs. It's just harder to do right smile

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#2870970 - 08/04/17 06:55 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: cphollis]
zephonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: cphollis

At the end of the day, all that really matters is how they sound, right?

I continue to argue that my plastic K8.2 units bring 80% of the game of the RCF TT08-a units for a fraction of the price.

I don't de-facto consider plastic unsatisfactory for APs. Plenty of plastic PA units out there that sound like crap with APs. It's just harder to do right smile


Sure, I don't mean to imply all plastic cabs are shite. In fact, some of the best studio monitors like Genelecs are made of composites or aluminum.

I'm just concluding that all the ones I have had sound more or less the same, with the cheapest (B208D) actually sounding better than speakers three times their price and size.

I'll check out those new QSC's. I tried the old ones, and didn't think they sounded all that different.


I'm beginning to suspect that the preamps have something to do with it, as I have noticed sometimes things sound better when my keyboards are plugged into the FOH mixer directly, and they give me an aux send back to my speaker. It can take the edge of, reduce harshness; but not every time.
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#2870971 - 08/04/17 06:58 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
cphollis Offline
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Preamps and DIs definitely help smile
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Keys: NP2, NS3C
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Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC K.2s, EVOX J8, SSv3
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#2870975 - 08/04/17 07:05 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: cphollis]
zephonic Offline
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Yeah, but if at all possible I'd like to keep schlep to minimum.

I move around a lot, and being able to plug in directly to the speaker and sending a single line out to the FOH is definitely nice.
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#2870977 - 08/04/17 07:07 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: zephonic]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
I'm just concluding that all the ones I have had sound more or less the same, with the cheapest (B208D) actually sounding better than speakers three times their price and size.

Again, ZXa1 sounds much, much better. (I own both.)

Like you, though, I was unimpressed by the QSC K8. The new 8.2 is much better.
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#2870980 - 08/04/17 07:15 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: AnotherScott]
cphollis Offline
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The frustrating part for me is that I occasionally cruise these other keyboard forums, and there are the guys touting their low-end KC amps, or a StagePas or whatever low-end stuff they've run across. One guy was proud that he'd found a pair of low-end Fender amps to play through in stereo.

OK, maybe if all I did was distorted EPs smile

Hey, if that's all you can afford, more power to you, but just don't expect to sound half-decent. We spend decent money on our boards. Why not spend decent money on amplification to be heard?

BTW, the EV ZAX-1 brings serious game for what it does. Just sayin'
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#2870982 - 08/04/17 07:17 PM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: AnotherScott]
zephonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: zephonic
I'm just concluding that all the ones I have had sound more or less the same, with the cheapest (B208D) actually sounding better than speakers three times their price and size.

Again, ZXa1 sounds much, much better. (I own both.)

Like you, though, I was unimpressed by the QSC K8. The new 8.2 is much better.


Yeah, I agree about the ZXA1, but like I said:

Originally Posted By: zephonic
It has two inputs, but one is a mic input. Only one line input. I did like how it sounded back then, but the input thing is why I went with the ZLX.
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#2871841 - 08/09/17 10:58 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: Dave Bryce]
RABid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Besides those already mentioned, another worthy candidate is the Line 6 L2t. I really like mine a lot. thu

dB


Do you use one or two?
Did you consider the L3t?
Do you use the mixer?
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#2871845 - 08/09/17 11:21 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: RABid]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Two.
No - too big.
Depends on the gig/configuration. If I have them in a V behind me or stacked vertically as a column, there's no need - two keyboards, two inputs per speaker wihich can be configured as stereo or dual mono, four channel snake. If I do one vertically on a pole and the other one on the floor (sometimes in front of me), then yes. I send the mixer output to the floor unit, and a digital feed to the one on the pole.

dB
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#2871847 - 08/09/17 11:23 AM Re: an amp, my kingdom for an amp [Re: RABid]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
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Another satisfied ZXA1 owner here.

I would imagine speakers that do not have mixers built in (eg. Roland KC amps that have 4 inputs) would be lighter than the ones that don't, such as the ZXA1.

I'm sure there's a decent range of lightweight mixers out there to keep the schlep factor to a minimum - light enough that ZXA1 plus mixer is still going to be lighter than a PA w/ built in mixer.
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