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#2869871 - 07/30/17 01:24 PM Why Me & Him / Why You ?
d Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOnzDKvn7YI


Tell what y'think N know...
snax
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#2869876 - 07/30/17 02:02 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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I really don't sing the blues as I just don't have the right voice for it...but I do enjoy listening to BB tell us why he sings the blues! He always does a great job on Lucille, just like he does in that live performance! cool
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#2869884 - 07/30/17 02:59 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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I don't really know WHAT the "right voice" for singing the blues IS, but I imagine it would at least have to be on key, and not offensive to the ear, which is why I only sing the blues when nobody else is in the room. wink

But, what I can't do with the voice, I at least try to do on the guitar. And true enough, I've had enough in my life to sing the blues ABOUT. frown
Whitefang
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#2869901 - 07/30/17 06:23 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Nobody else does vibrato like that.
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#2869908 - 07/30/17 07:23 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Nobody else does vibrato like that.


+1,000 Scott...

@ Fang, The right voice is how you feel about singing in the genre. I don't feel I have it. I'm more of a smoother Jazzy feel, Country Rock feel and old R&R feel. I can sing a little Stormy Monday but I just don't get into much more than that as I don't feel I can do the blues justice. Eric Clapton, Johnny Winter and others are good examples of those that can. I have always said BB just opens his mouth and the blues comes pouring out. If I could feel the vibe more, I would sing it more...I don't buy the I have to have had a rough time in my life to sing the blues bit... cool


Edited by Larryz (07/30/17 07:29 PM)
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#2869935 - 07/31/17 05:11 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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No, you don't, but it helps. It's what the ACTOR'S STUDIO folks call "sense/memory". I mean, there HAD to be SOMETHING in your life that made you feel bummed. Even if it's just your pet dog getting hit by a car when you were a kid. frown Think hard and bring THAT memory of how you felt then into it. wink
Whitefang
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#2869944 - 07/31/17 06:45 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Nobody else does vibrato like that.

Maybe, BBK def invented the standard but chk this...
[intro = 0:08~0:15]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yndfnaZbNYE


...but, L & WTF, y'all missing the why for the how.
Nixing the message for the media, as it were.
How is important but what is, uh, what it's all abt.

On w/ the show....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQQ_vl47CGc

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#2869954 - 07/31/17 07:06 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I guess that's why I'm not interested in singing the blues. I'm not an actor and I don't care to think about being bummed when I'm singing. I do hear the blues influence in my playing and I love the chords and scales that go into it. I play a few bluesy tunes like Bob Dylan's Dear Landlord or the Marty Robbins version of Singing The Blues which I think Dylan got the idea for his Living The Blues tune. I do my blues version of Highway 61 too. I do a few of these tunes, but I don't want to cry over them and I don't care that much for sad songs either. I'm more into jump blues. I've had a long life with many bad times that could make me cry if I were to dwell on them. I have too much fun playing than to try using the technique and to quote Hank Jr. "I am into happy and I don't like sad"... cool
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#2869955 - 07/31/17 07:12 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Actually, delivering the message of the blues isn't abt sadness but overcoming it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM


Edited by d (07/31/17 07:20 AM)
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#2869957 - 07/31/17 07:13 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Well, the WHY should be obvious.

Because I LIKE to. I often find it a good and satisfying form of self expression. I like it's form and variety in delivery. Not chained to any particular "formula" in how it can be played or sung. Can make you laugh or cry, or laugh to KEEP rom cryin'.

Oh, and LARRY---

You said(among others) your voice has more of a "country rock" feel. Which can also be just a country feel. And the illustrious Mr. King DID once say, "Country music is just WHITE BOY blues!" wink
Whitefang
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#2869962 - 07/31/17 07:23 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Quote:
Well, the WHY should be obvious.

Seems so but somehow isn't.
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#2869970 - 07/31/17 07:45 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fang, I really don't have a country voice with all that nasal stuff going on. I'm more into country rock and jazzing up some old country. More of a Rockabilly guy... cool

@ D, Why? not sure...I like the blues but not for much longer than an hour at a time and I like it live better than on recordings for some reason... cool
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#2869996 - 07/31/17 09:11 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Nobody else does vibrato like that.

Maybe, BBK def invented the standard but chk this...
[intro = 0:08~0:15]


There's something so tactile, like velvet, almost, more than sonic.

Anyway, but my real question is this: how the hell did I miss the Haynes-Trucks version of ABB until it was too late? I mean, this is what we call a trifecta. I have some researching to do.
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#2870086 - 07/31/17 02:40 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Actually, delivering the message of the blues isn't abt sadness but overcoming it.


No doubt. Move past it by getting it off your chest. I mean, just listen to a lot of B.B.'s stuff. He ain't "weepin' and moanin' " about his sadness, he's more or less telling his troubles where to get off!

And in a way, as a performer, even in music, you ARE somewhat of an "actor". You have to have SOME idea of how something expressed in some song's lyrics feels before trying to convincingly sing them. It's like what I read something singer/songwriter Joan Armitrading said about Marie Osmond....On the order of----"That little teeny-bop singin' all them love songs and it all sounding hollow. Then she grew up, got married and finally GOT her some, and THEN they started sounding real." wink
Whitefang
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#2870264 - 08/01/17 12:40 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
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Yes, that's often the case with young performers - their vocal interpretations don't sound "lived in" enough.

Case in point, Chris Thile, [no bluesman, LOL) whose vocals as a kid were too "earnest" somehow, for my taste anyway, though he was always a superb mandolinist. Now of course, he's grown up in many ways.

"Actors" - well, I think we're ALL actors to one degree or another if we expect to live in society.....

Re: blues being sad - BB said he didn't think the lyrics to "Sweet Little Angel" were sad:

I've got a sweet little angel
I love the way she spreads her wings

And there are others.

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#2870285 - 08/01/17 02:18 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Eric Iverson]
Larryz Offline
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I think this was a cool interview with Johnny and BB...wish the video was better. Here' some happy blues with that Sweet Little Angel:



Johnny said just singing about it, makes you feel better...

cool cool


Edited by Larryz (08/01/17 02:20 PM)
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#2870300 - 08/01/17 04:25 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Dig how John Dawson Winter 3 plays a backup just like a horn section there on Angel.

Then at 5:30 they dip into the universal mind & go for the same lick !
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#2870334 - 08/01/17 10:26 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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thu
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#2870350 - 08/02/17 04:11 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
Johnny said just singing about it, makes you feel better...

cool cool


Uh....Well.....yeah. Ain't that what we be sayin'?

And really, Ain't that WHY we LIKE to PLAY music in the FIRST PLACE? wink

And anyway, THANK YOU!

Seeing Johnny Winter AND B.B. King in he same clip TOGETHER not only made my DAY, probably my WHOLE YEAR! love
Whitefang
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#2870390 - 08/02/17 07:26 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Yeah, it's what we be sayin, that's [why]I went back and posted this interview/live playing video clip. It just sticks in my memory banks! Glad youse 2 like it! thu
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#2870400 - 08/02/17 08:02 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
...my real question is this: how the hell did I miss the Haynes-Trucks version of ABB until it was too late? I mean, this is what we call a trifecta. I have some researching to do.

Well, it's not too late.
They made several records + lotsa their shows are available online to audit when ya want.

If yer like me (& in some respects I think we have an affinity) y'may've dismissed Haynes as just another of the jam band mavens without actually hearing him.
Certainly by the end of the ABB he'd become a real titan of blues-derived techniques. He also wrote/cowrote much of their material, filling a collaborative role w/Gregg Allman that went in a diff direction than either Duane or Betts.

As for Trucks, my impression is that he started as an imitator but has become a true innovator, incorporating MidEastern microtonality into something new, if reminiscent of a space age Muddy Waters.
Many ignore that Waters was a master of deliberately offpitched notes.

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#2870401 - 08/02/17 08:08 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
skipclone 1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Originally Posted By: d
Actually, delivering the message of the blues isn't abt sadness but overcoming it.


No doubt. Move past it by getting it off your chest. I mean, just listen to a lot of B.B.'s stuff. He ain't "weepin' and moanin' " about his sadness, he's more or less telling his troubles where to get off!

And in a way, as a performer, even in music, you ARE somewhat of an "actor". You have to have SOME idea of how something expressed in some song's lyrics feels before trying to convincingly sing them. It's like what I read something singer/songwriter Joan Armitrading said about Marie Osmond....On the order of----"That little teeny-bop singin' all them love songs and it all sounding hollow. Then she grew up, got married and finally GOT her some, and THEN they started sounding real." wink
Whitefang


Well file this somewhere between Just sayin, and FWIW-I think the message of punk-to the extent that I get it, and I get the message 90% more than I get the music-the message was, that if you are pissed off don`t wrap that up in some kind of neat package so no one will choke-be pissed off, put the emotion first. I mean, music is supposed to be a medium, right? I do agree with that part.
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#2870449 - 08/02/17 11:04 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: skipclone 1]
Caevan O'Shite Offline
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Short answer- I love the sound and feel and want to get inside it.
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#2870710 - 08/03/17 02:40 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Caevan O'Shite]
whitefang Offline
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Let's all thank Caev for paring down our collective ten or so dozen words to a simple, concise to the point 12! thu
Whitefang
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#2870712 - 08/03/17 02:50 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
desertbluesman Offline
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The blues, is sweet music as played by BB. I did see BB live once at a venue in Sun City West Arizona. He had to be helped to the stage, they sat him down, and handed Lucille to him, and he proceeded to make me like his work more than I ever did before, which was a big bunch. His showmanship was absolutely great, his playing was as always, sweet simple and pure. His banter between songs was as interesting as his playing. I went home suitably impressed. Whatever I paid for the tickets was well worth it.

I don't actually play the blues, I consider what I do blues based rock.
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#2870728 - 08/03/17 04:41 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: skipclone 1]
Bottom End Offline
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Originally Posted By: skipclone 1
I think the message of punk-to the extent that I get it, and I get the message 90% more than I get the music-the message was, that if you are pissed off don`t wrap that up in some kind of neat package so no one will choke-be pissed off, put the emotion first. I mean, music is supposed to be a medium, right? I do agree with that part.
IIRC, the message of punk was "do what you want to do, and do it yourself" it was a way to broke out of the "corporate" structure the music world had become in the '70's. Though most people equate guitar based anger and thrashing rage with punk, many bands of various sorts of music took that DIY ethic and made all sorts of music, which made for a lot of great hits as well as import-only undergound stuff, too.

As for BB King, I had the great fortune to see him multiple times over 15 years, and even in the later years he still put it all out on stage, that voice, and Lucille, giving the lie to his age.

As for another King, check out the PBS special with Albert King and Stevie Ray Vaughn.
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#2870734 - 08/03/17 05:35 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Bottom End]
desertbluesman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bottom End

As for another King, check out the PBS special with Albert King and Stevie Ray Vaughn.


Saw it several times, great show that one.
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#2870758 - 08/04/17 03:53 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: desertbluesman]
whitefang Offline
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Saw B.B. long ago at the Grande pre-"The Thrill Is Gone" reknown.

A few "underground" FM stations played his stuff before AM got ahold of "Thrill".

And that Albert and Stevie show IS a great one. wink
Whitefang
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#2871019 - 08/05/17 04:36 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
whitefang Offline
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BTW:

Tv Station THIS/Detroit played the movie "Crossroads" yesterday, in which actor Joe Seneca, as an old bluesman named Willie Brown, says, "The blues ain't nothin' but a good man feelin' bad." And in another part tells Ralph Macchio's character, You got the FLASH but it's lackin' somethin' "

And when asked, "what?" replies, "MILEAGE!" wink

I always took it to mean that you don't approach blues academically. I know it's just a movie, but it made sense to me.
Whitefang
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#2871078 - 08/05/17 08:52 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
...my real question is this: how the hell did I miss the Haynes-Trucks version of ABB until it was too late? I mean, this is what we call a trifecta. I have some researching to do.

Well, it's not too late.
They made several records + lotsa their shows are available online to audit when ya want.


Sure, though too late to catch them live.

Quote:
If yer like me (& in some respects I think we have an affinity) y'may've dismissed Haynes as just another of the jam band mavens without actually hearing him.


Check.

Quote:
Certainly by the end of the ABB he'd become a real titan of blues-derived techniques. He also wrote/cowrote much of their material, filling a collaborative role w/Gregg Allman that went in a diff direction than either Duane or Betts.


Writing well is generally not the province of jam bands. Nothing in the guitar press led to think I should pay attention to him. But as far as note shaping I'm definitely wanting to look a lot further into his ouevre.

Quote:
As for Trucks, my impression is that he started as an imitator but has become a true innovator, incorporating MidEastern microtonality into something new, if reminiscent of a space age Muddy Waters.


Well, he started quite young, so we saw him start out as a talented, but not fully formed, kid. Now he's a mature artist. I think he's been watching Jeff Beck play slide. There's some very Eastern ornamentation going on there, zipping around both sides of the pitch, rather than just approaching it from below.

Quote:
Many ignore that Waters was a master of deliberately offpitched notes.


I'm kind of thinking, at least in this clip, that this is not so much deliberately subverting proper pitch, as much as not concerning himself with pitch as the primary issue. The main event is getting the emotion out.
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#2871101 - 08/05/17 11:00 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
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I've seen footage of Ashkenazy say basically the same thing to a group of Suzuki trained child pianists. Praising their "technically astute" playing, but also mentioning it's "emotionall vapid" effect. "Play the MUSIC as well as the NOTES" is also something he said.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/05/17 11:01 AM)
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#2871113 - 08/05/17 12:36 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser

Originally Posted By: d
As for Trucks, my impression is that he started as an imitator but has become a true innovator, incorporating MidEastern microtonality into something new, if reminiscent of a space age Muddy Waters.


Well, he started quite young, so we saw him start out as a talented, but not fully formed, kid. Now he's a mature artist. I think he's been watching Jeff Beck play slide. There's some very Eastern ornamentation going on there, zipping around both sides of the pitch, rather than just approaching it from below.


The scary-interesting thing is that while Trucks has achieved a remarkable degree of mastery in the past decade, he's still such a young cat that it's possible that he might surpass Jeff Beck as the master of pitch bending. freak


Originally Posted By: d
Many ignore that Waters was a master of deliberately offpitched notes.


Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
I'm kind of thinking, at least in this clip, that this is not so much deliberately subverting proper pitch, as much as not concerning himself with pitch as the primary issue. The main event is getting the emotion out.

That may not be the best illustration of his intentional control as the tweek he lays on the 3rd is somewhat subtle but make no mistake he did that deliberately as a way of conveying his emotional intent.

I'll look for a more definitive example.
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#2871252 - 08/06/17 12:06 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
d Offline
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OK, here's a Waters track that shows a bit more of his pitch sensibility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD9fRI_SgAg


During the 1st vocal verse note how he treats the word "each" [1:05~1:10]; similarly the word "sounds"in the 1st & 2nd lines of the 3rd verse [[2:20~2:50] gets a smeared bend.
The gtr solos that follow [3:17~5:00] get more extreme.
In the final verse he repeats the treatment of the word "sounds" from the 3rd verse.

Here's another example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiSoJL_PJMg


Of course bending pitch is a standard part of blues trad but I think that what MW did was particularly idiosyncratic & deliberate, going beyond the usual emotional touch to express a deeper anguish or even confusion or violence & to actually put those emotions into the minds of his audience.
Music does have a real physical effect---an impact, even, in the true sense of that word---on those in its presence.

BTW, for those who wonder if maybe MW was maybe just a bit sloppy, consider his skill as a singer---the cat knew when something was in tune or not.

This kinda thing's also heard in the wild bends of Muddy's main acolyte Buddy Guy.

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#2871272 - 08/06/17 02:54 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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like

Yeah, well....when it comes to Muddy, all I can ask is.....

Ain't that a MAN? wink
Whitefang
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#2872495 - 08/12/17 06:11 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Bottom End Offline
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#2872498 - 08/12/17 06:13 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Bottom End Offline
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#2872505 - 08/12/17 07:06 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Bottom End]
Larryz Offline
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Cool video Bottom End! Jerry Reed is one of my all-time favorite guitar players and I love hearing him play with BB King and other greats like Chet Atkins and Glen Campbell who just passed on to play with them again. Those back up guys in your video were very lucky to get to play with Jerry and BB...here's Jerry with Glen:



cool
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#2872531 - 08/12/17 09:28 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: d
BTW, for those who wonder if maybe MW was maybe just a bit sloppy, consider his skill as a singer---the cat knew when something was in tune or not.


I would never consider approximate intonation, in the hands of a master, to be sloppy, but in the folk idiom (i.e. blues, in this case,) I can see how strobe-tuner-like pitch perfection might be viewed as a sort of first world concern. More a matter for academics than the folks on the porch. Not saying Muddy was't precisely controlling the shape of a bend which never quite arrives all the way at the target pitch, just that that sort of thing was likely delegated to the hands, while the head & the heart went about the more pressing matters of expressing what needed to be expressed.
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#2872559 - 08/12/17 02:18 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
like

What I liked about those clips LARRY, was I've never known Jerry Reed as a guitarist,only familiar with him from the "Smokey/Bandit" movies. That's what I GET from not listening to a lot of country music I guess. blush
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/12/17 02:25 PM)
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#2872582 - 08/12/17 09:12 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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If you like that one, try this one of Jerry and Chet having fun. The guy was a phenomenal guitar player. He wrote quite a few tunes too, like Eastbound and Down for Smokey and the Bandit. He wrote, sang and played the guitar for the movie.



cool
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#2872597 - 08/13/17 04:39 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
shocked

YIKES!

Must have been him AND Chet John Sebastian wrote about in "Nashville Cats" that can "Pick more notes than the number of ants on a Tennessee anthill"! wink

I have certainly been missing out. Gonna have to go on the hunt for some CD re-ssues of Jerry's guitar work. I'd appreciate any suggestions. cool
Whitefang
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#2872640 - 08/13/17 11:02 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fang, He's got CD's out there of his greatest vocal hits and super hits. Any of them will showcase his guitar work as he always takes a lead or two and plays his own back up chords and fills. He has an instrumental album called Finger Dancing with two other guitar sessions players: Bobby Lovette and Mark Thompson. Jerry's Breakdown the song in the video with him and Chet is on that album. You can preview the whole album here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C25nd3NeyPw&index=5&list=PLs3UiDDnr8FkhsoUgMFR43iEvJbSATIoB

cool
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#2872662 - 08/13/17 01:07 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Quote:
I've never known Jerry Reed as a guitarist

freak

Back to the discussion...
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: d
BTW, for those who wonder if maybe MW was maybe just a bit sloppy, consider his skill as a singer---the cat knew when something was in tune or not.


I would never consider approximate intonation, in the hands of a master, to be sloppy, but in the folk idiom (i.e. blues, in this case,) I can see how strobe-tuner-like pitch perfection might be viewed as a sort of first world concern. More a matter for academics than the folks on the porch. Not saying Muddy was't precisely controlling the shape of a bend which never quite arrives all the way at the target pitch, just that that sort of thing was likely delegated to the hands, while the head & the heart went about the more pressing matters of expressing what needed to be expressed.


SF, you might not make the mistake of considering MW's playing sloppy; others might.

Just to make a fine point clear for certain, for masterful players such as Waters or Fred McDowell the awareness of the precise degree of pitch offset ( as in terms of cents, for ex ) may've been outside their realm of discussion but they were very precise in matching the pitch tones w/ their voices & they used these effects not just as self-expression but to communicate, to make listeners experience what they intended.

Self-expression & communication of feeling are not quite the same thing.
Self expression gets a feeling out; communication of feeling makes someone else understand the feeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwUwx2vONk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZRv829tt5c


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Prof Fred McD conducts a master class in deliberate pitch distortion.
In the following vid chk how what he plays & sings at 0:50~0:57 shifts from being diff (in classical music it would be termed a "false relation", i.e., harmony & melody differ) to matching as he finishes the phrase.
That's followed by him stressing the vocal phrase "waves of the water" as he bends the pitch of there word "waves" [1:00~1:07].
Then he plays a truly extraordinary passage [1:15~1:27] that really demonstrates that the distortions of pitch effected her are deliberate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TyzAAwJnIw

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#2872682 - 08/13/17 02:57 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Thanks, Larry. When I have time maybe, I'll get back and give a listen. But I'll probably wind up just trying to find it and buy it anyway, even WITHOUT a "preview". Y'know I'm not that big on listening to much music off of YouTube clips.

So, d----

I imagine your snark implies your collection of NOEL HARRISON is pretty extensive? wink
Whitefang
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#2872861 - 08/14/17 09:17 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fang, I think you'll find the album interesting if you click on my link...YouTube is a great way to try before you buy. It will only get better on your home equipment, if you like it... cool
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#2872953 - 08/14/17 04:14 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Typical doltish drivel from the 2nd previous poster boy for excessive, pointless posts.

Let's stick somewhat to the subject, eh ?
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#2872961 - 08/14/17 05:07 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: d

Tell what y'think N know...
snax


@ D, I don't [think] the subject was ever clearly defined in the OP...just say'in. cool


Edited by Larryz (08/14/17 05:09 PM)
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#2872971 - 08/14/17 05:43 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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True, but I sorta thought it'd be obvious.
Why some play blues & how they do their work.
One thing it's not meant to include the typical drift that some engage in.

Jerry Reed's OK by all means but...let's stick to music.


How abt we take a listen to these 2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3RNbAA7Wgg


& a later version that includes some of BG's variations on pitch control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkGa_nAkzZo
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#2873030 - 08/14/17 09:53 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Why some play the blues and how they do their work? I think they are born with it...BB, Muddy, Buddy, Mississippi, Howlin, etc., much like this guy that demos how it came from way down deep:



cool
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#2873054 - 08/15/17 04:30 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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I would venture a guess that if you're NOT "born with it", then there must be something about it that appeals to your sensibilities or otherwise speaks to you. I "discovered" it at a very young age and just liked the way it sounded. And the fact that it DOESN'T require a lot of technical skills and formal training in order to play it also appeals to a lot of guys. It's basic and straightforward. And in the case of THIS song :

https://youtu.be/mG-OlTWl6jQy

might give ONE kind of "inspiration". wink
Whitefang
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#2873405 - 08/16/17 03:52 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Or it might if it linked. rolleyes

I disagree, LarZ, abt being "to the manor born"
What we do is not really inborn but learned.

Oh, & thanks for the JLH vid!
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#2873413 - 08/16/17 04:57 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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It's OK to disagree D, as we often do...although the "manor born" (whoever said it), usually refers to the upper crust, to which most blues players do not belong. I don't think non-guitar players and those that could care less about music, will understand what I'm getting at. The blues chords and scales strike a special place in my DNA. I don't play or sing the blues for the most part, but I appreciate those that do. The chords and scales from the blues makes up a major part of my playing and I feel it's inbred somehow. JLH definitely has it and the video makes reference to being born with it (i.e title: "JLH Born with the Blues." cool


Edited by Larryz (08/16/17 05:00 PM)
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#2873416 - 08/16/17 05:18 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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By extension it also means to a certain style
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#2873436 - 08/16/17 07:04 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
@ D, These were your words not mine. I have never used the phrase and didn't know what you were referring to. Here's what I found when I looked it up:

" Manor Born
The meaning of this phrase with the spelling of "manor" refers to a nobility of birth. In feudal England, the ruling nobility lived in the manor house, while the serfs or other peons did not. Hence, "to the manor born" refers to a noble, or "upper crust" birth and heritage."

There may be more uses or extensions that I am unaware of...at any rate, the title of the clip that you thanked me for refers to being born with the blues...especially when listening to JLH. There is more there in the soul than just what has been learned IMHO. cool
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#2873469 - 08/17/17 03:41 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Or it might if it linked. rolleyes

I disagree, LarZ, abt being "to the manor born"
What we do is not really inborn but learned.

Oh, & thanks for the JLH vid!


If you were referring to the YT link I posted, I had no trouble with it when I went back and "clicked" it.

"Inborn"? That sounds as if it would mean "genetic", which skills in music certainly aren't. But then again, it might mean "born to", which some say and think you HAVE to be in order to play the blues. Which I don't think is true either, "born to" seeming to indicate one must be born into some particular culture or environment that those old blues legends came from. Like Miles once claiming BLACK musicians are the only ones that can play jazz at any worthwhile level.

But these various ambiguous phrases are more or less a matter of personal semantics and can mean different things to different people, so it's best to ask what an individual might have meant when using one of them before expressing an assumption.
Whitefang
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#2873494 - 08/17/17 06:43 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, I didn't use the terms "Inborn" or "born to" but I wonder, Haven't you ever heard someone say "He's a natural"? This is what I am referring to, not just to race:

" NOUN
a person regarded as having an innate gift or talent for a particular task or activity:
"she was a natural for the sort of television work required of her"

For me, there was just something about that 7th chord that resonated. When playing blues, rockabilly, rock and roll, it was like I had discovered the moon the 1st time I used a C7 or an E7 or the A7. It's in my soul. Then that minor chord F#minor from the Fmajor in Sleep Walk came along and I use this technique in many of my tunes and jazz standards. Speaking of which, I fell in love with the 9th chords and abused them without knowing the difference between the 9th and minor7th formations...Then along came the 6th (actually a 13th the way I play it) and I started getting a steel guitar sound for jazzing up my country licks. I also got a horn section sound out of it...I have taken a lot of feedback from die hard country players that don't like minors, 7ths, 9ths, etc., and get accused of jazzing up old country songs. Too bad, I'm having fun!

OK, that's a long winded description of what's in my birthrights. There is something in my soul in each of these genres that motivates me to play the guitar and use it as my backing band. If I love the song, I'll play it. I don't get locked into the blues or [insert genre]. I like to be versatile and play many different styles. Those that I have mentioned (and many more) that are born with the blues, get locked into the blues and I admire them. It's just not what I was born with...I'm more of a rockabilly Scotty Moore type...that's what I feel. It's subjective and non-players will have no idea of what I'm trying to describe. I also love lead work and scale improvisation in addition to the chords mentioned above. cool
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#2873503 - 08/17/17 07:43 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
[1]
Quote:
...the YT link I posted...


https://youtu.be/mG-OlTWl6jQy =====> This site can’t be reached
youtu.be unexpectedly closed the connection.
Try: Checking the connection
Checking the proxy and the firewall
ERR_CONNECTION_CLOSED

But please take that subject up elsewhere; it has no place here, really.
rolleyes

-----------------------------------------------------------
[2]
As for the confusion over terms, perhaps I should've typed "to the manner born", thereby getting some extra points for the pun besides the point, which is what we should get back to rather than chasing tangents b/c one member likes to do that.

------------------------------------------
[3]
Music is deeply ingrained in humans in at least 2 ways.
It's not only a social/cultural thing that likely predated our advanced development (or maybe paralleled it---gibbons & perhaps other species have been observed engaged in what can only be considered group vocalizing & movement aka singing/dancing) but there's a real physical effect that sound waves have on our bodies + the actual math/physics of acoustics that underlies the structures of music in cultures world-wide.

However, those structures do not universally carry the same meanings.
A b3rd didn't convey sadness in all cultures (although w/ the dominance of American pop music we may be headed that way).
The meaning music has is always defined by culture.
There's no specific inborn quality, no matter how natural it may seem to us.

That said, let's take a step back to revisit an earlier visitor, Jerry Reed...who provides some clarification on a certain long-debated question...

crazyfingers starts at 1:28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22tA-FiXeu8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-TVrR8wZc


&, of course, the answer is....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbpGMF4bcbU




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#2873508 - 08/17/17 08:16 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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The flat 3rd and the minor key works great for blues whether it's sad in all cultures really doesn't matter to me...here's a song I learned to play in Gminor on the Keyboard (my bass player stole the riff for If Your River Was Whiskey LOL!) by the Doobies. One of my favorites:



Thanks for bringing it back to Jerry Reed playing Honky Tonk with Boots. Both the Sax and Guitar version, although Jerry is doing what I like to do and improvising the guitar version of Honky Tonk without really playing Honky Tonk LOL!

I'm not chasing tangents and not really using the same words that both of you guys put in quotes...so, I hope you'll just read my born with it post for what it's worth. Something or nothing? You can say: "There's no specific inborn quality, no matter how natural it may seem to us." But, it does not ring true for me. It's a matter of opinion and I'm just expressing mine. It's OK if you wish to disagree and state this as fact as that's what you truly believe... cool
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#2873512 - 08/17/17 08:33 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Naw, LZ, yer not the "tangentialist" (& I think ya already knew that).

As for the rest, there are opinions & there are facts, even though that's something some are trying to destroy these days.
Not everything can be reduced to opinion.
Everything can be reduced to fact, though & while I, too, sometimes feel connections w/things that seem incredible, there's a reason the word incredible applies. grin

Actually I thought I brought it back to "Bloomers" & cross-cultural immersion in the blues, a subject to which y'can relate, I'm sure. wink

I'll haveta dig the Doobs another time but I'll be back...
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#2873513 - 08/17/17 08:38 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
d;

[1] If you had a problem with the link, how could you possibly be of the opinion that it has no place here? In fact, I just now tried it and had no problem. wink

[2] Confusion over terms usually occurs when someone uses vernacular they're more familiar with that few people outside of the first person's personal sphere rarely if ever use. Like a friend of mine who always used to say, ie; "I carried him to the store." instead of, "I gave hm a ride to the store".

[3] It's difficult to pinpoint just when and how humans developed what THEY( we?) call "music". Emulating what they observed primates and other species doing? Quite possibly. And true, music always had a specific connection to specific cultures, and the development and evolution of each culture's music is connected to their intended use of it. My guess is largely in religious rites and ceremonies as the earliest human compositions were largely in tribute to our particular deities. From God to "Gaboolah" the spirit that shows his face each full moon. wink

Larry:

I never once thought you WERE referring to race, I was just mentioning someone who tried to impose that opinion. And yes, I have heard the expression "A natural" in the sense you convey. But not all blues "legends" were"naturals" but instead were drawn to play the music out of a strong desire to express themselves in that manner. And the point of my link was to also make clear that despite the postulting of others here, that those cats never thought in those certain terms. They just played( and often not that technically skilled, as Josh White in my clip demonstrates) what they could in the best of their (in some cases) limited abilities. They had no idea of what Pentatonic, Chromatic or Mylodian scales were. Or even that they were playing 7th, 6th or diminished chords. If how they held a chord sounded good to them, they worked out a way to use it in a song. And the only "pitch" they were familiar with was probably what someone does in a baseball game or that hot, sticky black stuff you slop on the roof of a building or house. Most of those guys were self taught or learned from someone ELSE who was self taught, and they did their best to do what other before them did and some even tried(and succeeded) to make some improvements.

A little education can be a dangerous thing, and my feeling is that if people keep trying to approach and play blues too academically it'll drain it of all it's substance.
Whitefang
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#2873515 - 08/17/17 08:48 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
What has no place here is continual OT yammering, reflexive defensiveness & confusion abt musical subjects.
"Mylodian" scales ?
A little education is indeed a terrible thing.
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#2873571 - 08/17/17 01:52 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, I think it's putting the cart before the horse. You take what you and those guys picked out by ear, then analyze it. You will find the flat 3rds, diminished and dominant 7ths, the most important blue note the flat 5. It all comes from the scales both chords and leads. The 12 chromatic, 7 note and 5 note scales regardless of which mode. For the most part, the pentatonic blues, major and minor scales will dissect anything you want teach yourself. It's not playing academically as much as it is in knowing why what they did works...

When you hear something that moves you, that's the direction you should go in. Each of us has our own method of attacking this great instrument. You can tell by watching the John Lee Hooker video that he uses altered tuning and various finger techniques. Yes, this has to come from knowledge, but the vibe and the sounds he makes both on guitar and vocals comes from the soul...if you love it, you can sing and play it. Those with more talent will play it much sooner that you will...just my 2 cents. cool
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#2873656 - 08/18/17 04:21 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Look. All I'm saying is that those guys never THOUGHT of any of that stuff when playing, picking up another song or "making one up". And probably guys like Robert Johnson, Johnny Shines, Floyd Jones, Josh White and Willie Brown would have NO idea what y'all are talkin' about. And maybe too that knowing how the toaster works, while satisfying your curiosity, won't guarantee being able to make a better toaster, or even one as good, nor make the toast BETTER.

And BTW...I thought that clip of White singing his "Howlin' Wolf Blues" would amuse some and make them wonder if THAT'S where Chester Burnett got that name from. wink But there's always been several different stories from him about where the name came from.
Whitefang
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#2873720 - 08/18/17 09:22 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Too bad no one could see that clip....

Claiming that certain musicians never thought abt what they were doing is both incorrect & insulting but is in line with the suggestion that studying music somehow robs it of its authenticity.
One has to wonder how any new music developed if no one studied what went before.

However some will apparently never get it, so tryna change the mind of an uninformed person who resists learning is a waste of time, as is accommodating their preference to argue over trivialities rather than examine the point.

Let's take a diff tack.
{& some blah can just stay home, please ]

Here are some examples of recontextualized blues.

John Lennon puts sthe blues into middle of Beatlemania
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTe93fhGGvk


Capt Beefheart recasts Jimmy Reed's Big Boss Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soV8IcTzuj8


Value ?

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#2873721 - 08/18/17 09:23 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Fang, Just like that toaster, the guitar is all laid out for you. All you have to do is [pick] it up and start playing it. Your ear will discover the same sounds whether you know it or not. Only you can decide how you like your toast light or dark, with butter or jam, etc., and you still get to play with that volume knob LOL! cool
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#2873724 - 08/18/17 09:30 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
D, here's my favorite Beatles Blues tune that I love to play and sing. This one I was born to do LOL! Give it a listen:



cool cool cool cool
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#2873788 - 08/18/17 03:31 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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@d----


Guitar Player, Forum Rules:

First off, Welcome to the forum! We like to think of this place as our own "Virtual Pub". The little place on the internet where you can sit down with good friends and talk about guitars, effect pedals and any other musically related topics.

We have a few simple rules here, to help keep the peace. Please read them over and then feel free to join in!

1. No Politics or Religion.

These forums are for discussing the guitar. The occasional off topic thread is allowed, but please designate it by adding an "OT:" to the beginning of the thread title. Politics and religion always seem to stir up hard feelings, so it's best if they are not brought up in here.

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If you are just stopping in to sell something, don't bother. For regular, contributing members, please direct your items for sale to the "Guitar & Gear Classifieds" thread. It has been made a "Sticky" so it will always be located at the top of the page. If you are looking to buy something, by all means stop in and look around.

This forum holds no responsibility for items up for sale within the classified section. Buying items from here must be done at your own risk.
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1. If you work for a music products manufacturer, and someone asks a question about your products or directly requests information from you or your company (for example, a post that begins "If anyone from Kormahaland is listening..."), your response is entirely welcome, as one mission of this forum is certainly to foster information exchange between manufacturers and users. However, please do not start topics about your company or products.

2. During each major trade show, a member or myself may start a thread about new gear at that show. (NAMM, AES, Musikmesse, etc). Again, please leave it to a non-manufacturer to begin the topic, but you are encouraged to post summaries and links to new products introduced at the trade show on that thread only, please.

A few guidelines for what a manfacturer response may contain: Feel free to cite all the design features and their attendant benefits that you want. "This is what we did, and this is why it makes our stuff great." No problem there. When it comes to negative statements about the competition, though, some care is needed to keep things fair. We don't mind statements about a general category of one's competition - for example, you might make a hardware VA synth and talk about why it's better than "workstations" or "soft synths" for a given purpose. But claims about a specific competitor that are either somewhat subjective (Example: "XYZ company's samples sound unrealistic and don't sit in a mix well") or hard for the average reader on these forums to verify as more than hearsay (Example: "I've had a lot of customers switch to my product after getting frustrated with XYZ") are to be avoided. (Thanks to Stephen Fortner for writing up the policy for promoters!)
--------

3. No Personal Attacks.

Please refrain from personal attacks. If you are having a problem with a member and it can't be settled through PMs, talk to one of the Mods.

4. No Trolls!

If you are here to tell everyone how great you are, stir up trouble and see how many folks you can upset, you are in the wrong place.

5. No Resurrecting Old Threads.

If most of the contributing members to a thread are gone and unable to reply, please don't "bump" the thread. As a basic guideline, avoid resurrecting threads that are older than six months. We don't like "Zombie Threads" around here!

6. Please post music in the "Share Your Music..." thread.

If you have a song and you'd like us to give it a listen, feel free to post it in the "Share Your Music With The Forum" thread. You will get honest reviews of your masterpiece without the hassles of having to find it when it drops off the page. Plus, our forum doesn't get over run with song submissions.

7. No Profanity or Inappropriate Images.

Please remember that this is a family site and is therefore viewed by people of all ages. It's also important to note that folks who are logging in from their places of work, may wind up having pages that contain profanities, blocked. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest to avoid it. Mods have final say on the appropriateness of any and all images posted.

Note:

For the regulars, you will notice a new subforum at the top of the page called the "Guitar & Gear Classifieds: For Sale and Wanted". Feel free to use it for posting gear that you wish to buy or sell. Also, it may be used for finding musicians in your home town.

Other then that, take off your hat, pull up a seat and stay a while. There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks here and an equal number of "newbies" looking for help. One way or another, I'm sure you'll fit right in.

Craig Brophy (A String)

I don't see anything in there that stipulates I can't enter any thread and post an opinion or express things in my own personal style.

And perhaps YOU would benefit by paying attention to rule #3.

I also don't get your problem with the clip. Just click on it. When I do, it plays just fine. And can I help it if you insist on taking my comments WAY out of context? I've been a blues lover for 60 years, and playin' it for 50, so I don't fathom what it is you think I don't "get" about it.

@Larry---

The toaster bit was ALLEGORY, and also it seems taken out of context. And I never claimed analyzing it all wasn't necessary. If it makes you feel better, I'll not deny anyone the pleasure. All I attempted to imply is that it won't make anyone understand the HEART of the music, nor help make anyone a BETTER blues player.
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2873847 - 08/18/17 08:49 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: whitefang


@Larry---

The toaster bit was ALLEGORY, and also it seems taken out of context. And I never claimed analyzing it all wasn't necessary. If it makes you feel better, I'll not deny anyone the pleasure. All I attempted to imply is that it won't make anyone understand the HEART of the music, nor help make anyone a BETTER blues player.


I'm not trying to debate these issues Fang, just taking part in the discussion. I didn't bring in the toaster bit, but I do see the correlation as I stated. You still have a volume knob on that toaster and can turn up the heat or turn it down at anytime so that the toast comes out the way you like it. It has all been figured out for you. You put in the bread and push the lever down, making sure you're plugged in. Then the bread pops up and you get to do with it as you wish...

The guitar is much the same in that those 6 strings cross those 22 frets in standard tuning and everything has been figured out for you. The guys and/or gals that designed it and tuned it and figured out all of the intervals, keys, notes, bridge placement, tuners, etc., were genius. You pick it up and play it and discover all those beautiful pieces of golden brown bread just the way you like it. That's why those artists you mentioned did not need to have all that musical theory stuff in order to play it.

Where we tend to disagree (and I derive no pleasure in that regard) is: the scales, chords and theory study did make me a better blues, rock, country, etc., player. I chose to study it just a little (far less than I should have) and that gave me what my soul was searching for...I have always played by ear and still do. The scales and chords just help me locate those sounds my heart is searching for...You, may not agree and I'm not one to argue with your opinion. Just giving anyone who care to read it, mine. It's not meant to be taken as fact. As I said, we all study this instrument in our own way. I always say, you, are your greatest teacher...
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873869 - 08/19/17 04:44 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Fair enough. In my toaster analogy the toaster was the MUSIC. And in taking it apart to understand how it worked didn't make you able to make a BETTER toaster, or make better TOAST. And it was an idea copped from a debate on religion in a Woody Allen movie ("Hannah And Her Sisters"). So, ehough already. And BTW..

Did YOU have any difficulty with the link I posted? It was posted to illustrate an earlier comment that many of the early bluesmen weren't that technically advanced as guitar players, but, as with Josh White, became GIANTS in the blues genre regardless.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2873892 - 08/19/17 07:15 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Quote:



Guitar Player, Forum Rules:

First off, Welcome to the forum! We like to think of this place as our own "Virtual Pub". The little place on the internet where you can sit down with good friends and talk about guitars, effect pedals and any other musically related topics.

We have a few simple rules here, to help keep the peace. Please read them over and then feel free to join in!

1. No Politics or Religion.

These forums are for discussing the guitar. The occasional off topic thread is allowed, but please designate it by adding an "OT:" to the beginning of the thread title. Politics and religion always seem to stir up hard feelings, so it's best if they are not brought up in here.

2. No Spam.

If you are just stopping in to sell something, don't bother. For regular, contributing members, please direct your items for sale to the "Guitar & Gear Classifieds" thread. It has been made a "Sticky" so it will always be located at the top of the page. If you are looking to buy something, by all means stop in and look around.

This forum holds no responsibility for items up for sale within the classified section. Buying items from here must be done at your own risk.
--------
For Promoters:
1. If you work for a music products manufacturer, and someone asks a question about your products or directly requests information from you or your company (for example, a post that begins "If anyone from Kormahaland is listening..."), your response is entirely welcome, as one mission of this forum is certainly to foster information exchange between manufacturers and users. However, please do not start topics about your company or products.

2. During each major trade show, a member or myself may start a thread about new gear at that show. (NAMM, AES, Musikmesse, etc). Again, please leave it to a non-manufacturer to begin the topic, but you are encouraged to post summaries and links to new products introduced at the trade show on that thread only, please.

A few guidelines for what a manfacturer response may contain: Feel free to cite all the design features and their attendant benefits that you want. "This is what we did, and this is why it makes our stuff great." No problem there. When it comes to negative statements about the competition, though, some care is needed to keep things fair. We don't mind statements about a general category of one's competition - for example, you might make a hardware VA synth and talk about why it's better than "workstations" or "soft synths" for a given purpose. But claims about a specific competitor that are either somewhat subjective (Example: "XYZ company's samples sound unrealistic and don't sit in a mix well") or hard for the average reader on these forums to verify as more than hearsay (Example: "I've had a lot of customers switch to my product after getting frustrated with XYZ") are to be avoided. (Thanks to Stephen Fortner for writing up the policy for promoters!)
--------

3. No Personal Attacks.

Please refrain from personal attacks. If you are having a problem with a member and it can't be settled through PMs, talk to one of the Mods.

4. No Trolls!

If you are here to tell everyone how great you are, stir up trouble and see how many folks you can upset, you are in the wrong place.

5. No Resurrecting Old Threads.

If most of the contributing members to a thread are gone and unable to reply, please don't "bump" the thread. As a basic guideline, avoid resurrecting threads that are older than six months. We don't like "Zombie Threads" around here!

6. Please post music in the "Share Your Music..." thread.

If you have a song and you'd like us to give it a listen, feel free to post it in the "Share Your Music With The Forum" thread. You will get honest reviews of your masterpiece without the hassles of having to find it when it drops off the page. Plus, our forum doesn't get over run with song submissions.

7. No Profanity or Inappropriate Images.

Please remember that this is a family site and is therefore viewed by people of all ages. It's also important to note that folks who are logging in from their places of work, may wind up having pages that contain profanities, blocked. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest to avoid it. Mods have final say on the appropriateness of any and all images posted.

Note:

For the regulars, you will notice a new subforum at the top of the page called the "Guitar & Gear Classifieds: For Sale and Wanted". Feel free to use it for posting gear that you wish to buy or sell. Also, it may be used for finding musicians in your home town.

Other then that, take off your hat, pull up a seat and stay a while. There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks here and an equal number of "newbies" looking for help. One way or another, I'm sure you'll fit right in.

Craig Brophy (A String)

I don't see anything in there that stipulates I can't enter any thread and post an opinion or express things in my own personal style.

And perhaps YOU would benefit by paying attention to rule #3.

I also don't get your problem with the clip. Just click on it. When I do, it plays just fine. And can I help it if you insist on taking my comments WAY out of context? I've been a blues lover for 60 years, and playin' it for 50, so I don't fathom what it is you think I don't "get" about it.

@Larry---

The toaster bit was ALLEGORY, and also it seems taken out of context. And I never claimed analyzing it all wasn't necessary. If it makes you feel better, I'll not deny anyone the pleasure. All I attempted to imply is that it won't make anyone understand the HEART of the music, nor help make anyone a BETTER blues player.


That would've been a better edit on yer post.
Once again you just want to blah deadhorse , disrupting the flow of a thread by yer defensiveness abt yer "right" to do so, with nothing to really contribute except generalities or, worse, bad concepts/idea.

As for rule #3, I think yer the one who had a lesson in the results of abusing that, though it doesn't seem to've penetrated the NeverGetIt bubble.

Just stop, why don't ya ?
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2873895 - 08/19/17 07:29 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Larryz
D, here's my favorite Beatles Blues tune that I love to play and sing. This one I was born to do LOL! Give it a listen:



That's an OK song (another in the series of McCartney & Lennon responding to each others work) but doesn't relate to what I meant, i.e., the recontextualizing of blues as a way to modernize it without simply replaying or imitating what came before.
See what I mean ?
Lennon's Hard Day's Night stays close to basic blues form w/repeated lines followed by a turnaround (in this case altering the usual progressions).
The opening of the solo, although developed by G Martin, is also built on one of Lennon's bluesiest gtr licks.

Beefheart, who later recorded a direct cover of Big Boss Man for the film BLUE COLLAR, similarly updates the original in Plastic Factory both in tone & structure while retaining enough to clearly ID the source material...which is a part of the blues tradition.



_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2873896 - 08/19/17 07:32 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, No, I did not have trouble calling up your YT link. However, there have been times when others are talking about a YT post and I've tried to call it up and it wouldn't let me. I would then go on YT and call it up by title and it would play just fine...I don't know why? On one of the threads I posted a YT with the picture (the way D taught me) and the guy on the other end (I think he's in Spain) couldn't get it to click on from the picture. So I reposted it as a link and it worked for him. Bottom line, I wouldn't put too much stock in why some have trouble and some don't, calling up YouTube or any other links... cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873897 - 08/19/17 07:42 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ D, no I didn't catch all of the Hard Days Night comparison as I didn't consider it a blues tune (all though with the lyrics "I've been working like a dog" I could do it as a blues). The song I posted could be considered an old rock and roll tune or a blues with the timing. I'll have to interject Elvis here, as the Oh Darling cops the song concepts from One Night With You. I can sing them both as a medley. Sometimes I'm more into the music and do not always catch the intended directions you and Fang wish to go. (As evidenced by the toaster as Fang was taking it apart and I was just using it LOL!). Anyway, don't get on me too hard as I don't always follow what the topic is due to my A.D.D LOL! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873905 - 08/19/17 08:39 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
LarZ, I'm not getting on ya, am I ?
Hoever, if ya listen to the song (HDN) again, as I described, Lennon definitely gave it a blues structure but tweaked many elements to make it something new.

That's what I'm discussing here (in the entire thread): building on blues trads by understanding how the elements work & moving the music into something that keeps it from being mere imitation...which in itself is a part of blues tradition, making it new, whether by introducing new subjects/lyrics or new musical elements or sounds, like the post-war electric bands.



_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2873945 - 08/19/17 03:14 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
That's a good assessment. And BTW, didn't most of us here in previous threads conclude that R'n'R WAS basically blues based in structure?

Works for me. And BTW----

Though we all know all the early Beatle tunes were credited to Lennon/McCartney, and it is believed that Lennon wrote HDN, McCartney and others STILL insist that Paul collaborated on it.

I'm just willing to bet that Lennon didn't come up with that opening chord by himself. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2873974 - 08/19/17 09:35 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: d
LarZ, I'm not getting on ya, am I ?
Hoever, if ya listen to the song (HDN) again, as I described, Lennon definitely gave it a blues structure but tweaked many elements to make it something new.

That's what I'm discussing here (in the entire thread): building on blues trads by understanding how the elements work & moving the music into something that keeps it from being mere imitation...which in itself is a part of blues tradition, making it new, whether by introducing new subjects/lyrics or new musical elements or sounds, like the post-war electric bands.



D, No, your not getting on me too hard with Hard Days Night LOL! I'm just not blues savvy enough to follow the direction you're headed in with this song. I don't hear the hidden blues elements that you're speaking of. I know there are blues elements to almost all R&R and country songs usually due to a I IV V progression. For me HDN (which is locked in my memory banks without having to listen to YT to hear it) can be redone as a country tune easier than what I think of as a blues tune...

There is a ton of revamped blues elements in blues that after awhile much of it sounds the same. Same holds true for other genres like country and rock and roll. But blues is blues and it is hard sometimes to make it sound different and break away from the norm. Like you say lyrics can do it, little bass riffs, runs, leads, etc. But Heart and Soul is what does it for me. You have to have the basics of life when it comes to writing these tunes in order to make them stand out and be different. For me, it's like a Telecaster played straight up plugged straight in. Each artist starts with the same plain jane equipment and then shows their skill and makes it come alive. That's how I see the different takes on the blues. Anyway it's just my opinion and thoughts (not easily changed) and I try to keep an open mind. I don't mind going back and listening to HDN again and again to try and see what you see. I'm just SnowBlind. I always thought that was a cool name one of my buddy's had for his band... cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873991 - 08/20/17 04:36 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Y'know, this got me to thinking a bit, and it seems you can hear, even if ever so slightly, blues elements in songs that aren't even CONSIDERED anywhere NEAR what most think of as "blues". And could, with some little effort, be played in a "blues fashion".

"I Left My Heart In San Fransisco" comes to mind. I'll bet Johnny or B.B. could have done WONDERS with it!

"My Way" too, could be reworked into a good blues tune. But, those element have to BE there to begin with in order to DO that with any validity. IMHO.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2874029 - 08/20/17 11:17 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, I think there's enough blues to go around without revamping San Francisco and My Way LOL! But, don't let that stop you! I could post bluesy versions Over The Rainbow by Ray Charles and Eric Clapton, but you can find those on YT. There are tons of Jazz versions of just about any pop song you can think of to include the Beatles and many R&R classics. The Blue Grass boys do the same thing even with MowTown tunes. Improvisational renditions are a lot of fun to experience.

I know I've mentioned several times my doing Dylan's Highway 61 as a jump blues tune before Johnny took it up. I was playing my version before my blues duo and Americana buds and they told me, that's not really a blues tune! Well when Eric had Johnny on his Crossroads DVD doing 61 live, I brought the DVD over and told them, so that's not a blues tune eh? They had to eat crow on that one LOL! I like jazzing up old tunes or jump bluesing them up a little the way Elvis did...I'm more of a rocker. Another countrified Beatles bluesy tune I used to do was Rocky Raccoon. It's all in fun! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2874034 - 08/20/17 11:28 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
To make it clear, for Larry or any others still auditing this, HDNight's verse structure = 2 lines that are virtually identical & sung over a progression based on I IV (w/elaborations) followed by a 3rd line that serves as a turnaround, although Lennon switches it to IV V to return to the I.
How more bluesy could it be ?
It took me a while to catch on though, I admit, since they sauced it up all Beatley.

Then the solo starts w/ a line = [scale tones] 1...1...b3...1...4 bending up to the 5 .
Blues or not ?
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2874039 - 08/20/17 11:45 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ D, I'll let the others still auditing this provide the positive comments you are looking for. There is always going to be primordial blues and rock and roll ooze anytime you have a I IV V going down...throw in that flat 3rd and a turn around and you've got it...bending up to the flat 5 will catch an ear or two too! For me, it's just not a blues tune even if there are common elements...Just about any tune can be a blues tune, if the theory holds water...I'm just a voice in the wilderness on this one. cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2874040 - 08/20/17 11:56 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I'm not claiming it's a blues tune but a song developed as a modern, authentic way for an English cat who dug the blues to spread that to others rather than produce a mere imitation/copy.

Not looking for positive comments as much as consideration of the value of such an approach compared to, say, John Mayall, RStones, Cream, etc.
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2874042 - 08/20/17 12:00 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 205
Loc: Shenzhen, China
confused
_________________________






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#2874060 - 08/20/17 01:56 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
confused

By what ?
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2874080 - 08/20/17 05:46 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
I'm sorry D, I'm not able to follow. For me, Oh Darling is a blues and HDN is not. Whether or not John was centering on blues concepts to help him write HDN, is a question I cannot answer. How that compares to other blues writers methods, is another one...cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2874139 - 08/21/17 04:34 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Whether or not a song is WRITTEN as a blues tune is determined by it's composer. And probably designated as such. But as much of what ANY of us do musically often has much of what INFLUENCED us weave it's way into it, then blues elements finding their way into HDN is no surprise. Now, John may not have consciously INTENDED any of that to be considered when writing it, but it found it's way in there anyway.

Just as they did in the "non blues" tunes I brought up a few ago.

And though he likes to often imply that I don't "gets" it, I do understand what d's trying to get across. I'll try a different approach.....

In the movie "Back to The Future", when Marty takes over for the guitarist at the school dance, he turns to the band and tries to explain what he's about to do by saying, "It's your basic BLUES riff in B", and THEN flies into "Johnny B. Goode". Which CB never INTENDED to be taken as a blues tune.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2874200 - 08/21/17 07:49 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Well I have to disagree Fang. Johnny B. Goode is a classic I IV V blues progression up tempo'ed to create Rock and Roll. I go back and do a slower blues version using Night Train as my backing for the vocal (at one of my cabin jams) and it really came out cool! I can't speak to what Chuck or John intended in their writings. I'll let you two hammer it out...

I wonder what Jimmie Rodgers had in mind with In The Jailhouse Now? That's a blues tune and in the movie Oh Brother Where Art Thou the Soggy Bottom Boys said somewhere in the neighborhood of B...doesn't justify anything...I probably heard it on the radio when I was about 5 years old and started singing it around the house. Box Car Willie really does it in the key of B. Kind of embarrassed my mom when others heard me singing those lyrics...that's a blues tune that touched my soul that I can relate to...so throw me in the I just don't get it jail LOL! cool


Edited by Larryz (08/21/17 08:06 AM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2874208 - 08/21/17 08:30 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I suggest you leave EVELYN WOOD alone and go back and read my previous post.

I actually AGREE with you on "Johnny B. Goode". Remember....I mentioned Marty telling the others, "Your basic BLUES RIFF...." wink

Bear in mind also there WAS a bluesman named JIMMIE ROGERS( w/out the "d") Who was once in Muddy's band and had an OK solo career. His "Blues Leave Me Alone" is on Clapton's "From The Cradle" LP/CD.

Ad don't forget JIMMIE RODGERS, the "Honeycomb" guy. smile
Whitefang



Edited by whitefang (08/21/17 08:31 AM)
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2874213 - 08/21/17 09:07 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
I'm not speed reading your post Fang, I remember the Honey Comb guy and I'm sure there are others with or without the D in the name (which has nothing to do with my post)...the Jimmie Rodgers I'm speaking of recorded In the Jailhouse Now in 1928. Man of Constant Sorrow was recorded the same year by Amry Arthur...movie tunes really don't prove much as far as the blues elements are concerned but both of these tunes had it going for them. I 1st ran into the Constant Sorrow tune when Dylan covered it but I really loved the movie version much better than Dylan's... cool


Edited by Larryz (08/21/17 09:16 AM)
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2874283 - 08/21/17 02:56 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I did to. And I'll admit, "In The Jailhouse Now" was a tune I have never heard before the flick. As I said earlier, I didn't spend a lot of time listening to country music over the years.

And I just mentioned the other Rogers out of interest in the fact that Blues WAS being bandied about in these discussions. It really had no profound bearing on anything.

And I mentioned Evelyn wood in regards to your reply of "Well I have to disagree fang, Johnny B. Goode is a classic I IV V blues progression...."

Don't recall ever claiming otherwise. Like, it SOUNDS like, "Your basic blues riff...." wink

Some recognize it that way while others are intent on playing the letters and numbers game. I can't do that, so I rely on more simplified and straightforward terms. cool
Whitefang
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#2874390 - 08/22/17 07:13 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I IV V is pretty straight forward. Start with any note and count up from there...I know you know C F and G, A D and E, G C and D, etc. Start with C and count up from there (i.e. C D E F G) and you'll see where the 4 and 5 are in C and you can do this in any key with any of the 12 starting notes. It is the most common blues and rock and roll progression there is. Thus, just about every old rock and roll song we listen to has blues elements to it...nothing really special about it IMHO. cool

Ps. The same holds true for our old country music...


Edited by Larryz (08/22/17 07:15 AM)
Edit Reason: ps.
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#2874395 - 08/22/17 08:00 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Well, I DID once quote B.B. saying something like, "All that country music IS, is WHITE BOY BLUES." wink I think it was in response to some of his friends way back razzing him for saying he liked some country song that was big at the time.

And none of that counting and all those letters STILL doesn't change the fact that NONE of that stuff was ever thought of by those old dudes back when they were setting the bar. Just HEARING it for so long and so much over time it became so INGRAINED in them that they pulled it out of their bag when they thought it would help them "say" what they needed to.

And, as you claim NOT to be that "good" of a blues player, then knowing all of that really doesn't seem to HELP all that much, does it? wink
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#2874400 - 08/22/17 08:20 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fang, I never claimed "NOT to be that "good" of a blues player"...I simply said I don't have the right voice, heart, interest, etc., in singing and/or playing the blues. (you like to pick my comments apart but your memory fades a little at times). But, Yes, knowing "all of that" has helped my playing 100%. And, BTW I am a piss ant in the cosmos as far as knowing all that much of it! It's like the old bear story, I don't have to outrun the bear to keep from being eaten alive, I only have to outrun you LOL!

You may think those old blues boys did not know what a I IV V is or a Pentatonic Blues Scale, or whatever you wish to focus on [insert blues element here], but I assure you that they do...many times players such as yourself claim to not know or use these elements, but I assure you that you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be playing the blues. You can believe it or not...it's just my comment. cool


Edited by Larryz (08/22/17 08:49 AM)
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#2874501 - 08/22/17 02:52 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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I'll try one lasttime, then we'll leave it be because I don't wish to piss you off. That's not my intent. And the not being a good blues player was just a bit of a "rib" wink

I never claimed the old blues players DIDN'T know what all that was. Just that they never knew(or cared) what all of it was called. Or even considered any of it when coming up with a new tune. I did often mention a friend of mine who was in one of the "rag-tag" basement bands I was in who was classically trained. Well, one time I came up with a new tune I "wrote"(which really means I "made it up", since I don't "write" music). When I finished a quick run-through of it, he said, "I thought you said you never studied music formally." And I said I didn't. He then asked me, "You mean you DIDN'T realize that song is in a 5/4 time signature?"

I told him no, I just liked the way the changes SOUNDED. cool
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#2874754 - 08/23/17 01:16 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Don't worry about pissing me off Fang, you do it all of the 5/4 time LOL! cool
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#2874833 - 08/24/17 04:23 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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grin

That's how I've been workin' on the railroad! wink

Anyway( and it struck me humorously), I was lookin' though my CD collection the other day for something to strike my fancy at the time, and chose an old JOHN MAYALL re-issue("Crusade")

While listening, your comment about not having "the right voice" came haunting back. Now, many would say John doesn't exactly SOUND like a blues singer, yet he's STILL considered a respected "bluesman". wink So, it must be the "heart and interest" that's the major players, eh? Anyway....

That LP starts out with "Driving Sideways", an instrumental blues tune by Freddie King, who's done several of those. So THAT approach might work for ya. wink And as far as "Singin' The Blues", did you forget Guy Mitchell? wink
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#2874865 - 08/24/17 06:46 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
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Yeah, forget about Guy Mitchell...Marty Robbins is my favorite when it comes to Singing the Blues. There were a lot of old white country blues tunes going back to 1928 like the ones I mentioned from Oh Brother Where Art Thou. I think Bob Dylan copped his tune from Mitchell and Robbins when he did his version called Living The Blues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq0xZQvvX20

I was watching a few YT interview clips about the blues and caught Buddy Guy talking about those old dudes. He had put his guitar on the back burner for awhile and just went and watched the greats. He said they "were naturals and I was just a student." Howlin Wolf said it's all about money and Son House said it's all about a man and a woman...Buddy attended the greats concerts back in the day and is around today to tell us what he was thinking. Luckily there are clips of the older "naturals" that I describe as being born with it. Something in their voices that I just don't have. Sorry it haunted you Fang LOL! I have said many times that BB just opens his mouth and the blues comes pouring out...and Buddy said he loved the way BB hit that note and just waved his hand, with that clean sound plugged straight in with no effects...he did not need them to play the blues...

My favorite instrumental blues is Sleep Walk. It hit the rock and roll classic charts with a bang, but for me it's a blues. That trick of going from Fmajor to Fminor in the same song is found in a few of the songs I do like: Since I Fell For You 1945, where I think Santo and Johnny got the idea for their '59 tune. Brian Setzer does my favorite version of Sleep Walk with a ton of improvisation...which is the key to the Blues, Jazz, Blue Grass and Rock and Roll instrumental music that I love to hear... cool


Edited by Larryz (08/24/17 10:10 AM)
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#2875102 - 08/25/17 05:18 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Well, I was more or less being facetious with the Guy Mitchell thing. wink

https://youtu.be/BrBpT05be18

But it was just a thought. And you give the impression that you might not consider John Mayall to be a respectable bluesman, and I thought the fact that HE doesn't have that "blues voice" you seem to think somebody HAS to have might have loosened you up a bit too. And my mention of Freddie King was to point out you don't ALWAYS have to SING blues, nor is it always about playing or singing in minor keys.

But I like that connection you made with "Sleepwalk" and "Since I Fell For You". Heh. Never took notice of it before. wink

And if you DID listen to the Josh White clip I posted you'd have noticed TOO, that he wasn't also that "bluesy" a singer. Not in the B.B. or Buddy vein at least. Actually, it SOUNDED quite "pitchy" and crackly at times, but the EMOTION was there.

And BTW..I think the world of Brian Setzer, but still prefer the Santo and Johnny original "Sleepwalk". wink
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#2875145 - 08/25/17 07:24 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVaypxYh8aY <---here's Marty...I prefer this version and "blues voice" over the whistle dude LOL!

What you may someday notice Fang, is you do not have to have that "blues voice" I'm talking about like BB and many of the black blues greats have (i.e. as you are trying to point out with your John Mayall clip). The country white blues voice that I pointed out in the clips I posted from Oh Brother Where Art Thou go back to 1928. Eric Clapton and Johnny Winter are a couple of white guys that have good "blues voices". All you really have to do is be into it and you too can sing the blues. I'm not into the vibe and don't have the right pipes for it IMHO. If you are not into the blues or any other genre for that matter, don't bother singing it...that's my rule, it doesn't apply to everybody to include you.

"And you give the impression that you might not consider John Mayall to be a respectable bluesman" when you make comments like this, you state something I did not say or that you feel I infer. It's not true...and I don't listen to every clip you post nor do I listen to John Mayall. I do like old jump blues and rock and roll based upon blues chords and scale patterns. I hope you'll give Marty Robbins a chance (as posted above) for a minute or two. But if you don't, I won't comment on what you may or may not have inferred.

The Brian Setzer version is an example of improvisation on a theme. I enjoy both his and the original version. For instrumentals, I loved The Ventures version. My Ventures buddies and I played it wrong back in the 60's. We use C Am F G. It's actually C Am Fm G. I like the wrong way as when you go to that Fmajor to Fminor in the bridge, the change really stands out more, if you are using Fmajor in the verse throughout. Setzer plays the chords correctly and also adds a ton of jazz and passing chords to the tune. My version uses C Am G# G, C Am Fminor G in the intro and then C Am F G throughout (i.e the way me and the boys used to play it). Which sounds more like the Ventures IMHO. It's all a matter of taste. What you like and who you listen to is for your enjoyment...and yes, those two songs Sleep Walk and Since I Fell For You, have a lot in common and I'm glad you can hear the similarities I'm thinking of when I play and sing them... cool


Edited by Larryz (08/25/17 07:29 AM)
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#2875241 - 08/25/17 03:06 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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And what YOU may someday notice Larry, is that I mean to imply that it isn't how GOOD you sing when singing a blues tune, it's what you sing and the meaning you put into it is what counts. It don't HAVE to be "pretty" or some percieved notion of what "soulful" is, as blues is one genre that has NO such requirements for it's execution. Meaning basically, if you think you're better suited for COUNTRY music vocals, you could probably pull off blues, because the EMOTION is really the same.

I mean, you proved my point by claiming MARTY ROBBINS has a "blues voice". And I doubt that Marty would have considered himself a "blues" singer. I can almost hear him say, "I'm just a country boy doin' the best I can." wink And I'D say that MY voice isn't good for blues. OR rock, country or even folk. But whenever any band I was in would do a blues tune, the rest of the band insisted that I do the vocals because for some strange reason, they thought I was BETTER at it than they were. Go figure....
Whitefang

Oh, and BTW....since you HAD a "Ventures" band, lemme ask.....

When some of us early on would play "Walk, Don't run" we'd play Am, G, F,E. But listening closely, I though I instead heard the first chord a Amaj. Right or wrong? Or am I remembering something wrong...


Edited by whitefang (08/25/17 03:19 PM)
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#2875252 - 08/25/17 03:51 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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+1 Marty has too sweet of a "blues voice" to be a real blues singer and you can have a raspy voice like Taj Mahal, Janis Joplin or Joe Cocker, that I love, and sound sweet singing the blues...

Funny, but in the movie Hamburger Hill, the black guys in the platoon make fun of the white guys singing this same song (i.e. Singing the Blues) and really lay that yodel part on thick LOL!

I know we used Amajor G F E for Walk Don't Run...In Pipeline for the chorus run down we used Am G F and back to G then repeat and go down to E...but when I play Pipeline and/or when I'm adlibbing a on a surf vibe, I like to just keep using Am G F E...we would run these two tunes together along with a couple more in a surf medley, much like what Junior Brown does. We did pretty good for some high school kids [picking] out the songs by ear, wearing holes in our 33 rpm's LOL! When we go back over some of those tunes these days, my lead guitar guy says we were playing some of the chords wrong back in those days and I tell him, that's cuz I was play'in the rhythm guitar LOL! I get accused of being the chord master and/or jazzing it up. But playing rhythm guitar in that old high school band really helped me with my back up guitar for my vocals/solo act...the lead players get all the credit but the rhythm player is what makes them sound good! Now if you're Jeff Beck, Jimi or SRV, you don't need no chord hacker like me! cool


Edited by Larryz (08/25/17 09:50 PM)
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#2875312 - 08/26/17 05:11 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Well, in "Pipeline" the Am is clear. But many years after first playing "Walk, don't Rn", I was listening to it on an "oldies" radio station, and on better sound equipment that the old portable "phonograph" I wore the old 45 of mine to translucence on, and it DID then sound like A and not Am. DUH! I should just do a "google" search, eh? wink

As for Marty....Yeah, sure. Had a "sweet" voice, but still managed to get the "blue" across. Meaning you don't HAVE to have some particular sounding pipes in order to BE a "blues" singer. Just like "husk and growl" and running up and down the scales five or six times on one syllable DOESN'T necessarily make anyone a "soul" singer. Joan Armitrading for example, manages to get TONS of soul in an otherwise "smooth as silk" sounding voice. smile

BTW...I had that old Guy Mitchell tune on an old 78 once and it always made me laugh. grin
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#2875331 - 08/26/17 07:54 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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You could do a google search or you can just grab your guitar. Try it both ways and you'll find that Amajor is the way to go on Walk Don't Run...





cool
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#2875446 - 08/27/17 05:12 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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There WERE other tunes( I think) that used an Am-G-F-E pattern BEFORE WDR, and The Ventures just changed it up. But a lot of guys just never bothered to notice is what probably happened.

That "google search" BTW, took me to a few places with a couple having it as Am, and a couple of others at Amaj. crazy
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#2875457 - 08/27/17 07:27 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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You play by ear don't you? I'll bet you'll like the Amajor for WDR...for all other tunes, I use the Aminor and play the lead using the Aminor scale. The Aminor is more bluesy and Latin sounding. cool
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#2875500 - 08/27/17 02:56 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Safe bet. Since WDR IS an "upbeat" kind of tune, Amaj works better. wink For me at least.
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#2875528 - 08/27/17 06:47 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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A couple of bluesy tunes you can do using Aminor G F E are Stray Cat Strut by Brian Setzer and 16 Tons by Merle Travis... cool
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#2875560 - 08/28/17 04:13 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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THERE ya go! wink
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#2875601 - 08/28/17 08:19 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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My prayers and best wishes go out to all those good people down in Texas! It's why I have the blues today...



cool

ps. Hope you are OK up in Dallas Texas DannyA!


Edited by Larryz (08/28/17 02:36 PM)
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#2875722 - 08/29/17 04:28 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Cripes! I go off the rails if a little water backs up from the basement drains. I can't IMAGINE what those poor folks are enduring down there. And it's what the KIDS are suffering is what bothers me the most.
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#2875853 - 08/29/17 04:31 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swhEa8vuP6U


As far as how bad that scene is ....can't help pointing out there was a worse situation in New Orleans w/ Katrina
Dig
The Storms
Katrina: It made landfall near the Louisiana/Mississippi border on Aug. 29, 2005, as a Category 3 storm and measured 350 miles across. However, the relatively low classification, based on wind speed, was deceptive because Katrina produced the highest storm surge ever recorded in the United States.
Harvey: It made landfall in Rockport, Tex., on Friday as a Category 4 storm, measuring 200 miles across, but was quickly downgraded. As of Monday, it was expected to linger for days, causing the National Weather Service to warn, “This event is unprecedented and all impacts are unknown.”
Deaths and Damage
Katrina: One of the deadliest hurricanes ever to strike the United States, Katrina was responsible for 1,833 deaths, and some bodies were untouched for days. The storm inflicted more than $100 billion in damage, with most of it caused by wind, storm surge and the failure of the levees. Katrina also left three million people across the region without power.
Harvey: Local officials have reported at least 10 deaths in Texas since the storm began, and the number could rise. Heavy rains and flooding are expected to continue at least through Friday, and most of the damage could be caused by flooding.

Armed police immediately roamed the streets of the Crescent City.
Think we'll see that in Houston ?

"And Everybody Wanna Know Why I Sing The Blues"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJrZ1LAOLYQ&spfreload=5
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#2875952 - 08/30/17 09:08 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Katrina was very bad...could have been much worse the predictions of a direct hit were 10,000 deaths. New Orleans was built below sea level and the levees broke. The pumps (that could have saved the day) didn't work cuz the vandals took the handles (actually due to no electricity but Bob Dylan wrote about such levee failures in his song posted below). Houston had many floods and the shipping channel Houston built to become a port city, may have had something to do with the flood of 1929.



cool
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#2876084 - 08/31/17 05:02 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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It doesn't matter which one was worse. It's the worst since Katrina, and hopefully FEMA has it's kinks all worked out.
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#2876114 - 08/31/17 07:40 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Katrina hit in August too...it was in 2005. It doesn't seem that long ago, but it was 12 years ago. All of the private citizens showing up with their boats to help in the evacuation of the Harvey victims, is a God send. cool
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#2876123 - 08/31/17 08:26 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
All of the private citizens showing up with their boats to help in the evacuation of the Harvey victims, is a God send. cool


Reminds me of Dunkirk; the call goes out & the civilian fleet just shows up & knows what to do. In spite of all the divisiveness, when people need help, people help.
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#2876197 - 08/31/17 04:11 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
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There are weather related events happening at an alarming rate all over the world, and some still don't get it. Having been through a major flood last summer, my thoughts go out to the people in Texas and Louisiana. Also to the forgotten weather event on the West coast, record setting heat.
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#2876234 - 08/31/17 08:50 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Also to the forgotten weather event on the West coast, record setting heat.


Hottest day of the year so far in LA, 104 according to Google. Fortunately I was in my studio all day where it averaged about 82.
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#2876252 - 09/01/17 03:47 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
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OY! And here in MI, we're experiencing unseasonably cool weather. 55 as I'm typing this right now.

Not complaining, just noticing the oddness of it.
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#2876283 - 09/01/17 07:20 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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We are expecting 110 degrees today here in Northern Cal...hope it falls a little short of that mark! crazy
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#2877131 - 09/05/17 04:17 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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We just yesterday evening got some "spin-off" from Harvey up here in the form of thunderstorms and heavy rain. But the rain only lasted a half hour or so and caused no problem. But in other nearby counties they had "severe weather" watches and warnings until 11:00pm.
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#2877163 - 09/05/17 07:42 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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We hit 108 degrees and it's been a long hot summer! But, we are looking at a cool down into the 80's today, Yeah! We won't have to sing the blues now like James Taylor's tune: "I've seen Fire and I've seen Rain, I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end!" cool


Edited by Larryz (09/05/17 09:58 AM)
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#2877359 - 09/06/17 03:59 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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grin
Seems in California lately, that song's lyrics have a lot of relevance!

There were tmes you could see all three in one week. wink
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#2877394 - 09/06/17 07:48 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Yeah, we get some strong wind rains, forest fires, earthquakes and heatwaves. But, those that are facing hurricanes and tornados back east are always in our prayers as they seem to come around every year... cool
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#2878338 - 09/11/17 03:45 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Just got an e-mail back from my friend in Ocala. Said huricanes don't bother them much in that location, but Irma is something else and though for now they're staying put, if it gets more intense they're prepared to vamoose.

Said to pass the time he's working out various arrangements for "Stormy Weather". grin
Whitefang
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I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2878388 - 09/11/17 08:55 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Hope your friends are OK...the report I heard this morning was winds were down to 100 mph and Irma is downgraded to a Cat 2 or less. Should clear Florida on Tuesday. Just heard a radio report that winds are now down to 70 mph...glad to hear your buddy has a sense of humor and is working out on Stormy Weather. I'm sure a lot of people will be having a reason to sing the blues out there. Sending all of them our best wishes... cool
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Take care, Larryz

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#2878390 - 09/11/17 09:33 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 205
Loc: Shenzhen, China
Hope everyone is doing well in Texas and Florida. We've had an abnormal number of typhones this year, earlier than normal. We are expecting 5 this month. The anxiety is almost unbearable. So for all my friends, and everyone, in harm's way my thoughts are with you. We haven't taken a direct hit yet, so I can't begin to imagine what people in the the path of the storm are going through.

P.S. add Georgia, Louisiana and any place else that may be effected as the storm moves inland.


Edited by JuJu Kwan (09/11/17 09:42 AM)
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#2878407 - 09/11/17 10:51 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Those are good thoughts JuJu, and it seems we get so wrapped up in these things here that many in the U.S. tend to forget people and countries on your side of the globe face similar troubles. I hope none of the typhoons they face cause as much trouble and destruction.

To those who might think "Global warming" is just a "scam":

Then please offer some intelligent sounding explanation for the inordinate frequency and power of these recent weather anomalies please.
Whitefang
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I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2880487 - 09/20/17 03:14 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
bor blah
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d=halfnote

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