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#2873515 - 08/17/17 08:48 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
What has no place here is continual OT yammering, reflexive defensiveness & confusion abt musical subjects.
"Mylodian" scales ?
A little education is indeed a terrible thing.
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GP Island
#2873571 - 08/17/17 01:52 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, I think it's putting the cart before the horse. You take what you and those guys picked out by ear, then analyze it. You will find the flat 3rds, diminished and dominant 7ths, the most important blue note the flat 5. It all comes from the scales both chords and leads. The 12 chromatic, 7 note and 5 note scales regardless of which mode. For the most part, the pentatonic blues, major and minor scales will dissect anything you want teach yourself. It's not playing academically as much as it is in knowing why what they did works...

When you hear something that moves you, that's the direction you should go in. Each of us has our own method of attacking this great instrument. You can tell by watching the John Lee Hooker video that he uses altered tuning and various finger techniques. Yes, this has to come from knowledge, but the vibe and the sounds he makes both on guitar and vocals comes from the soul...if you love it, you can sing and play it. Those with more talent will play it much sooner that you will...just my 2 cents. cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873656 - 08/18/17 04:21 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Look. All I'm saying is that those guys never THOUGHT of any of that stuff when playing, picking up another song or "making one up". And probably guys like Robert Johnson, Johnny Shines, Floyd Jones, Josh White and Willie Brown would have NO idea what y'all are talkin' about. And maybe too that knowing how the toaster works, while satisfying your curiosity, won't guarantee being able to make a better toaster, or even one as good, nor make the toast BETTER.

And BTW...I thought that clip of White singing his "Howlin' Wolf Blues" would amuse some and make them wonder if THAT'S where Chester Burnett got that name from. wink But there's always been several different stories from him about where the name came from.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2873720 - 08/18/17 09:22 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Too bad no one could see that clip....

Claiming that certain musicians never thought abt what they were doing is both incorrect & insulting but is in line with the suggestion that studying music somehow robs it of its authenticity.
One has to wonder how any new music developed if no one studied what went before.

However some will apparently never get it, so tryna change the mind of an uninformed person who resists learning is a waste of time, as is accommodating their preference to argue over trivialities rather than examine the point.

Let's take a diff tack.
{& some blah can just stay home, please ]

Here are some examples of recontextualized blues.

John Lennon puts sthe blues into middle of Beatlemania
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTe93fhGGvk


Capt Beefheart recasts Jimmy Reed's Big Boss Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soV8IcTzuj8


Value ?

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#2873721 - 08/18/17 09:23 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Fang, Just like that toaster, the guitar is all laid out for you. All you have to do is [pick] it up and start playing it. Your ear will discover the same sounds whether you know it or not. Only you can decide how you like your toast light or dark, with butter or jam, etc., and you still get to play with that volume knob LOL! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873724 - 08/18/17 09:30 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
D, here's my favorite Beatles Blues tune that I love to play and sing. This one I was born to do LOL! Give it a listen:



cool cool cool cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873788 - 08/18/17 03:31 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
@d----


Guitar Player, Forum Rules:

First off, Welcome to the forum! We like to think of this place as our own "Virtual Pub". The little place on the internet where you can sit down with good friends and talk about guitars, effect pedals and any other musically related topics.

We have a few simple rules here, to help keep the peace. Please read them over and then feel free to join in!

1. No Politics or Religion.

These forums are for discussing the guitar. The occasional off topic thread is allowed, but please designate it by adding an "OT:" to the beginning of the thread title. Politics and religion always seem to stir up hard feelings, so it's best if they are not brought up in here.

2. No Spam.

If you are just stopping in to sell something, don't bother. For regular, contributing members, please direct your items for sale to the "Guitar & Gear Classifieds" thread. It has been made a "Sticky" so it will always be located at the top of the page. If you are looking to buy something, by all means stop in and look around.

This forum holds no responsibility for items up for sale within the classified section. Buying items from here must be done at your own risk.
--------
For Promoters:
1. If you work for a music products manufacturer, and someone asks a question about your products or directly requests information from you or your company (for example, a post that begins "If anyone from Kormahaland is listening..."), your response is entirely welcome, as one mission of this forum is certainly to foster information exchange between manufacturers and users. However, please do not start topics about your company or products.

2. During each major trade show, a member or myself may start a thread about new gear at that show. (NAMM, AES, Musikmesse, etc). Again, please leave it to a non-manufacturer to begin the topic, but you are encouraged to post summaries and links to new products introduced at the trade show on that thread only, please.

A few guidelines for what a manfacturer response may contain: Feel free to cite all the design features and their attendant benefits that you want. "This is what we did, and this is why it makes our stuff great." No problem there. When it comes to negative statements about the competition, though, some care is needed to keep things fair. We don't mind statements about a general category of one's competition - for example, you might make a hardware VA synth and talk about why it's better than "workstations" or "soft synths" for a given purpose. But claims about a specific competitor that are either somewhat subjective (Example: "XYZ company's samples sound unrealistic and don't sit in a mix well") or hard for the average reader on these forums to verify as more than hearsay (Example: "I've had a lot of customers switch to my product after getting frustrated with XYZ") are to be avoided. (Thanks to Stephen Fortner for writing up the policy for promoters!)
--------

3. No Personal Attacks.

Please refrain from personal attacks. If you are having a problem with a member and it can't be settled through PMs, talk to one of the Mods.

4. No Trolls!

If you are here to tell everyone how great you are, stir up trouble and see how many folks you can upset, you are in the wrong place.

5. No Resurrecting Old Threads.

If most of the contributing members to a thread are gone and unable to reply, please don't "bump" the thread. As a basic guideline, avoid resurrecting threads that are older than six months. We don't like "Zombie Threads" around here!

6. Please post music in the "Share Your Music..." thread.

If you have a song and you'd like us to give it a listen, feel free to post it in the "Share Your Music With The Forum" thread. You will get honest reviews of your masterpiece without the hassles of having to find it when it drops off the page. Plus, our forum doesn't get over run with song submissions.

7. No Profanity or Inappropriate Images.

Please remember that this is a family site and is therefore viewed by people of all ages. It's also important to note that folks who are logging in from their places of work, may wind up having pages that contain profanities, blocked. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest to avoid it. Mods have final say on the appropriateness of any and all images posted.

Note:

For the regulars, you will notice a new subforum at the top of the page called the "Guitar & Gear Classifieds: For Sale and Wanted". Feel free to use it for posting gear that you wish to buy or sell. Also, it may be used for finding musicians in your home town.

Other then that, take off your hat, pull up a seat and stay a while. There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks here and an equal number of "newbies" looking for help. One way or another, I'm sure you'll fit right in.

Craig Brophy (A String)

I don't see anything in there that stipulates I can't enter any thread and post an opinion or express things in my own personal style.

And perhaps YOU would benefit by paying attention to rule #3.

I also don't get your problem with the clip. Just click on it. When I do, it plays just fine. And can I help it if you insist on taking my comments WAY out of context? I've been a blues lover for 60 years, and playin' it for 50, so I don't fathom what it is you think I don't "get" about it.

@Larry---

The toaster bit was ALLEGORY, and also it seems taken out of context. And I never claimed analyzing it all wasn't necessary. If it makes you feel better, I'll not deny anyone the pleasure. All I attempted to imply is that it won't make anyone understand the HEART of the music, nor help make anyone a BETTER blues player.
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2873847 - 08/18/17 08:49 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: whitefang


@Larry---

The toaster bit was ALLEGORY, and also it seems taken out of context. And I never claimed analyzing it all wasn't necessary. If it makes you feel better, I'll not deny anyone the pleasure. All I attempted to imply is that it won't make anyone understand the HEART of the music, nor help make anyone a BETTER blues player.


I'm not trying to debate these issues Fang, just taking part in the discussion. I didn't bring in the toaster bit, but I do see the correlation as I stated. You still have a volume knob on that toaster and can turn up the heat or turn it down at anytime so that the toast comes out the way you like it. It has all been figured out for you. You put in the bread and push the lever down, making sure you're plugged in. Then the bread pops up and you get to do with it as you wish...

The guitar is much the same in that those 6 strings cross those 22 frets in standard tuning and everything has been figured out for you. The guys and/or gals that designed it and tuned it and figured out all of the intervals, keys, notes, bridge placement, tuners, etc., were genius. You pick it up and play it and discover all those beautiful pieces of golden brown bread just the way you like it. That's why those artists you mentioned did not need to have all that musical theory stuff in order to play it.

Where we tend to disagree (and I derive no pleasure in that regard) is: the scales, chords and theory study did make me a better blues, rock, country, etc., player. I chose to study it just a little (far less than I should have) and that gave me what my soul was searching for...I have always played by ear and still do. The scales and chords just help me locate those sounds my heart is searching for...You, may not agree and I'm not one to argue with your opinion. Just giving anyone who care to read it, mine. It's not meant to be taken as fact. As I said, we all study this instrument in our own way. I always say, you, are your greatest teacher...
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873869 - 08/19/17 04:44 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Fair enough. In my toaster analogy the toaster was the MUSIC. And in taking it apart to understand how it worked didn't make you able to make a BETTER toaster, or make better TOAST. And it was an idea copped from a debate on religion in a Woody Allen movie ("Hannah And Her Sisters"). So, ehough already. And BTW..

Did YOU have any difficulty with the link I posted? It was posted to illustrate an earlier comment that many of the early bluesmen weren't that technically advanced as guitar players, but, as with Josh White, became GIANTS in the blues genre regardless.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2873892 - 08/19/17 07:15 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Quote:



Guitar Player, Forum Rules:

First off, Welcome to the forum! We like to think of this place as our own "Virtual Pub". The little place on the internet where you can sit down with good friends and talk about guitars, effect pedals and any other musically related topics.

We have a few simple rules here, to help keep the peace. Please read them over and then feel free to join in!

1. No Politics or Religion.

These forums are for discussing the guitar. The occasional off topic thread is allowed, but please designate it by adding an "OT:" to the beginning of the thread title. Politics and religion always seem to stir up hard feelings, so it's best if they are not brought up in here.

2. No Spam.

If you are just stopping in to sell something, don't bother. For regular, contributing members, please direct your items for sale to the "Guitar & Gear Classifieds" thread. It has been made a "Sticky" so it will always be located at the top of the page. If you are looking to buy something, by all means stop in and look around.

This forum holds no responsibility for items up for sale within the classified section. Buying items from here must be done at your own risk.
--------
For Promoters:
1. If you work for a music products manufacturer, and someone asks a question about your products or directly requests information from you or your company (for example, a post that begins "If anyone from Kormahaland is listening..."), your response is entirely welcome, as one mission of this forum is certainly to foster information exchange between manufacturers and users. However, please do not start topics about your company or products.

2. During each major trade show, a member or myself may start a thread about new gear at that show. (NAMM, AES, Musikmesse, etc). Again, please leave it to a non-manufacturer to begin the topic, but you are encouraged to post summaries and links to new products introduced at the trade show on that thread only, please.

A few guidelines for what a manfacturer response may contain: Feel free to cite all the design features and their attendant benefits that you want. "This is what we did, and this is why it makes our stuff great." No problem there. When it comes to negative statements about the competition, though, some care is needed to keep things fair. We don't mind statements about a general category of one's competition - for example, you might make a hardware VA synth and talk about why it's better than "workstations" or "soft synths" for a given purpose. But claims about a specific competitor that are either somewhat subjective (Example: "XYZ company's samples sound unrealistic and don't sit in a mix well") or hard for the average reader on these forums to verify as more than hearsay (Example: "I've had a lot of customers switch to my product after getting frustrated with XYZ") are to be avoided. (Thanks to Stephen Fortner for writing up the policy for promoters!)
--------

3. No Personal Attacks.

Please refrain from personal attacks. If you are having a problem with a member and it can't be settled through PMs, talk to one of the Mods.

4. No Trolls!

If you are here to tell everyone how great you are, stir up trouble and see how many folks you can upset, you are in the wrong place.

5. No Resurrecting Old Threads.

If most of the contributing members to a thread are gone and unable to reply, please don't "bump" the thread. As a basic guideline, avoid resurrecting threads that are older than six months. We don't like "Zombie Threads" around here!

6. Please post music in the "Share Your Music..." thread.

If you have a song and you'd like us to give it a listen, feel free to post it in the "Share Your Music With The Forum" thread. You will get honest reviews of your masterpiece without the hassles of having to find it when it drops off the page. Plus, our forum doesn't get over run with song submissions.

7. No Profanity or Inappropriate Images.

Please remember that this is a family site and is therefore viewed by people of all ages. It's also important to note that folks who are logging in from their places of work, may wind up having pages that contain profanities, blocked. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest to avoid it. Mods have final say on the appropriateness of any and all images posted.

Note:

For the regulars, you will notice a new subforum at the top of the page called the "Guitar & Gear Classifieds: For Sale and Wanted". Feel free to use it for posting gear that you wish to buy or sell. Also, it may be used for finding musicians in your home town.

Other then that, take off your hat, pull up a seat and stay a while. There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks here and an equal number of "newbies" looking for help. One way or another, I'm sure you'll fit right in.

Craig Brophy (A String)

I don't see anything in there that stipulates I can't enter any thread and post an opinion or express things in my own personal style.

And perhaps YOU would benefit by paying attention to rule #3.

I also don't get your problem with the clip. Just click on it. When I do, it plays just fine. And can I help it if you insist on taking my comments WAY out of context? I've been a blues lover for 60 years, and playin' it for 50, so I don't fathom what it is you think I don't "get" about it.

@Larry---

The toaster bit was ALLEGORY, and also it seems taken out of context. And I never claimed analyzing it all wasn't necessary. If it makes you feel better, I'll not deny anyone the pleasure. All I attempted to imply is that it won't make anyone understand the HEART of the music, nor help make anyone a BETTER blues player.


That would've been a better edit on yer post.
Once again you just want to blah deadhorse , disrupting the flow of a thread by yer defensiveness abt yer "right" to do so, with nothing to really contribute except generalities or, worse, bad concepts/idea.

As for rule #3, I think yer the one who had a lesson in the results of abusing that, though it doesn't seem to've penetrated the NeverGetIt bubble.

Just stop, why don't ya ?
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2873895 - 08/19/17 07:29 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: Larryz
D, here's my favorite Beatles Blues tune that I love to play and sing. This one I was born to do LOL! Give it a listen:



That's an OK song (another in the series of McCartney & Lennon responding to each others work) but doesn't relate to what I meant, i.e., the recontextualizing of blues as a way to modernize it without simply replaying or imitating what came before.
See what I mean ?
Lennon's Hard Day's Night stays close to basic blues form w/repeated lines followed by a turnaround (in this case altering the usual progressions).
The opening of the solo, although developed by G Martin, is also built on one of Lennon's bluesiest gtr licks.

Beefheart, who later recorded a direct cover of Big Boss Man for the film BLUE COLLAR, similarly updates the original in Plastic Factory both in tone & structure while retaining enough to clearly ID the source material...which is a part of the blues tradition.



_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2873896 - 08/19/17 07:32 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, No, I did not have trouble calling up your YT link. However, there have been times when others are talking about a YT post and I've tried to call it up and it wouldn't let me. I would then go on YT and call it up by title and it would play just fine...I don't know why? On one of the threads I posted a YT with the picture (the way D taught me) and the guy on the other end (I think he's in Spain) couldn't get it to click on from the picture. So I reposted it as a link and it worked for him. Bottom line, I wouldn't put too much stock in why some have trouble and some don't, calling up YouTube or any other links... cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873897 - 08/19/17 07:42 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ D, no I didn't catch all of the Hard Days Night comparison as I didn't consider it a blues tune (all though with the lyrics "I've been working like a dog" I could do it as a blues). The song I posted could be considered an old rock and roll tune or a blues with the timing. I'll have to interject Elvis here, as the Oh Darling cops the song concepts from One Night With You. I can sing them both as a medley. Sometimes I'm more into the music and do not always catch the intended directions you and Fang wish to go. (As evidenced by the toaster as Fang was taking it apart and I was just using it LOL!). Anyway, don't get on me too hard as I don't always follow what the topic is due to my A.D.D LOL! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873905 - 08/19/17 08:39 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
LarZ, I'm not getting on ya, am I ?
Hoever, if ya listen to the song (HDN) again, as I described, Lennon definitely gave it a blues structure but tweaked many elements to make it something new.

That's what I'm discussing here (in the entire thread): building on blues trads by understanding how the elements work & moving the music into something that keeps it from being mere imitation...which in itself is a part of blues tradition, making it new, whether by introducing new subjects/lyrics or new musical elements or sounds, like the post-war electric bands.



_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2873945 - 08/19/17 03:14 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
That's a good assessment. And BTW, didn't most of us here in previous threads conclude that R'n'R WAS basically blues based in structure?

Works for me. And BTW----

Though we all know all the early Beatle tunes were credited to Lennon/McCartney, and it is believed that Lennon wrote HDN, McCartney and others STILL insist that Paul collaborated on it.

I'm just willing to bet that Lennon didn't come up with that opening chord by himself. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2873974 - 08/19/17 09:35 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: d
LarZ, I'm not getting on ya, am I ?
Hoever, if ya listen to the song (HDN) again, as I described, Lennon definitely gave it a blues structure but tweaked many elements to make it something new.

That's what I'm discussing here (in the entire thread): building on blues trads by understanding how the elements work & moving the music into something that keeps it from being mere imitation...which in itself is a part of blues tradition, making it new, whether by introducing new subjects/lyrics or new musical elements or sounds, like the post-war electric bands.



D, No, your not getting on me too hard with Hard Days Night LOL! I'm just not blues savvy enough to follow the direction you're headed in with this song. I don't hear the hidden blues elements that you're speaking of. I know there are blues elements to almost all R&R and country songs usually due to a I IV V progression. For me HDN (which is locked in my memory banks without having to listen to YT to hear it) can be redone as a country tune easier than what I think of as a blues tune...

There is a ton of revamped blues elements in blues that after awhile much of it sounds the same. Same holds true for other genres like country and rock and roll. But blues is blues and it is hard sometimes to make it sound different and break away from the norm. Like you say lyrics can do it, little bass riffs, runs, leads, etc. But Heart and Soul is what does it for me. You have to have the basics of life when it comes to writing these tunes in order to make them stand out and be different. For me, it's like a Telecaster played straight up plugged straight in. Each artist starts with the same plain jane equipment and then shows their skill and makes it come alive. That's how I see the different takes on the blues. Anyway it's just my opinion and thoughts (not easily changed) and I try to keep an open mind. I don't mind going back and listening to HDN again and again to try and see what you see. I'm just SnowBlind. I always thought that was a cool name one of my buddy's had for his band... cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2873991 - 08/20/17 04:36 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9866
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Y'know, this got me to thinking a bit, and it seems you can hear, even if ever so slightly, blues elements in songs that aren't even CONSIDERED anywhere NEAR what most think of as "blues". And could, with some little effort, be played in a "blues fashion".

"I Left My Heart In San Fransisco" comes to mind. I'll bet Johnny or B.B. could have done WONDERS with it!

"My Way" too, could be reworked into a good blues tune. But, those element have to BE there to begin with in order to DO that with any validity. IMHO.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2874029 - 08/20/17 11:17 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, I think there's enough blues to go around without revamping San Francisco and My Way LOL! But, don't let that stop you! I could post bluesy versions Over The Rainbow by Ray Charles and Eric Clapton, but you can find those on YT. There are tons of Jazz versions of just about any pop song you can think of to include the Beatles and many R&R classics. The Blue Grass boys do the same thing even with MowTown tunes. Improvisational renditions are a lot of fun to experience.

I know I've mentioned several times my doing Dylan's Highway 61 as a jump blues tune before Johnny took it up. I was playing my version before my blues duo and Americana buds and they told me, that's not really a blues tune! Well when Eric had Johnny on his Crossroads DVD doing 61 live, I brought the DVD over and told them, so that's not a blues tune eh? They had to eat crow on that one LOL! I like jazzing up old tunes or jump bluesing them up a little the way Elvis did...I'm more of a rocker. Another countrified Beatles bluesy tune I used to do was Rocky Raccoon. It's all in fun! cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2874034 - 08/20/17 11:28 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
To make it clear, for Larry or any others still auditing this, HDNight's verse structure = 2 lines that are virtually identical & sung over a progression based on I IV (w/elaborations) followed by a 3rd line that serves as a turnaround, although Lennon switches it to IV V to return to the I.
How more bluesy could it be ?
It took me a while to catch on though, I admit, since they sauced it up all Beatley.

Then the solo starts w/ a line = [scale tones] 1...1...b3...1...4 bending up to the 5 .
Blues or not ?
_________________________
d=halfnote

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#2874039 - 08/20/17 11:45 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
@ D, I'll let the others still auditing this provide the positive comments you are looking for. There is always going to be primordial blues and rock and roll ooze anytime you have a I IV V going down...throw in that flat 3rd and a turn around and you've got it...bending up to the flat 5 will catch an ear or two too! For me, it's just not a blues tune even if there are common elements...Just about any tune can be a blues tune, if the theory holds water...I'm just a voice in the wilderness on this one. cool
_________________________
Take care, Larryz

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#2874040 - 08/20/17 11:56 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 6080
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
I'm not claiming it's a blues tune but a song developed as a modern, authentic way for an English cat who dug the blues to spread that to others rather than produce a mere imitation/copy.

Not looking for positive comments as much as consideration of the value of such an approach compared to, say, John Mayall, RStones, Cream, etc.
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#2874042 - 08/20/17 12:00 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
JuJu Kwan Offline
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Registered: 02/08/16
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Loc: Shenzhen, China
confused
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#2874060 - 08/20/17 01:56 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
d Offline
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Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
confused

By what ?
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#2874080 - 08/20/17 05:46 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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I'm sorry D, I'm not able to follow. For me, Oh Darling is a blues and HDN is not. Whether or not John was centering on blues concepts to help him write HDN, is a question I cannot answer. How that compares to other blues writers methods, is another one...cool
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#2874139 - 08/21/17 04:34 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Whether or not a song is WRITTEN as a blues tune is determined by it's composer. And probably designated as such. But as much of what ANY of us do musically often has much of what INFLUENCED us weave it's way into it, then blues elements finding their way into HDN is no surprise. Now, John may not have consciously INTENDED any of that to be considered when writing it, but it found it's way in there anyway.

Just as they did in the "non blues" tunes I brought up a few ago.

And though he likes to often imply that I don't "gets" it, I do understand what d's trying to get across. I'll try a different approach.....

In the movie "Back to The Future", when Marty takes over for the guitarist at the school dance, he turns to the band and tries to explain what he's about to do by saying, "It's your basic BLUES riff in B", and THEN flies into "Johnny B. Goode". Which CB never INTENDED to be taken as a blues tune.
Whitefang
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#2874200 - 08/21/17 07:49 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Well I have to disagree Fang. Johnny B. Goode is a classic I IV V blues progression up tempo'ed to create Rock and Roll. I go back and do a slower blues version using Night Train as my backing for the vocal (at one of my cabin jams) and it really came out cool! I can't speak to what Chuck or John intended in their writings. I'll let you two hammer it out...

I wonder what Jimmie Rodgers had in mind with In The Jailhouse Now? That's a blues tune and in the movie Oh Brother Where Art Thou the Soggy Bottom Boys said somewhere in the neighborhood of B...doesn't justify anything...I probably heard it on the radio when I was about 5 years old and started singing it around the house. Box Car Willie really does it in the key of B. Kind of embarrassed my mom when others heard me singing those lyrics...that's a blues tune that touched my soul that I can relate to...so throw me in the I just don't get it jail LOL! cool


Edited by Larryz (08/21/17 08:06 AM)
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#2874208 - 08/21/17 08:30 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I suggest you leave EVELYN WOOD alone and go back and read my previous post.

I actually AGREE with you on "Johnny B. Goode". Remember....I mentioned Marty telling the others, "Your basic BLUES RIFF...." wink

Bear in mind also there WAS a bluesman named JIMMIE ROGERS( w/out the "d") Who was once in Muddy's band and had an OK solo career. His "Blues Leave Me Alone" is on Clapton's "From The Cradle" LP/CD.

Ad don't forget JIMMIE RODGERS, the "Honeycomb" guy. smile
Whitefang



Edited by whitefang (08/21/17 08:31 AM)
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#2874213 - 08/21/17 09:07 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Loc: Northern California
I'm not speed reading your post Fang, I remember the Honey Comb guy and I'm sure there are others with or without the D in the name (which has nothing to do with my post)...the Jimmie Rodgers I'm speaking of recorded In the Jailhouse Now in 1928. Man of Constant Sorrow was recorded the same year by Amry Arthur...movie tunes really don't prove much as far as the blues elements are concerned but both of these tunes had it going for them. I 1st ran into the Constant Sorrow tune when Dylan covered it but I really loved the movie version much better than Dylan's... cool


Edited by Larryz (08/21/17 09:16 AM)
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#2874283 - 08/21/17 02:56 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I did to. And I'll admit, "In The Jailhouse Now" was a tune I have never heard before the flick. As I said earlier, I didn't spend a lot of time listening to country music over the years.

And I just mentioned the other Rogers out of interest in the fact that Blues WAS being bandied about in these discussions. It really had no profound bearing on anything.

And I mentioned Evelyn wood in regards to your reply of "Well I have to disagree fang, Johnny B. Goode is a classic I IV V blues progression...."

Don't recall ever claiming otherwise. Like, it SOUNDS like, "Your basic blues riff...." wink

Some recognize it that way while others are intent on playing the letters and numbers game. I can't do that, so I rely on more simplified and straightforward terms. cool
Whitefang
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#2874390 - 08/22/17 07:13 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 10192
Loc: Northern California
I IV V is pretty straight forward. Start with any note and count up from there...I know you know C F and G, A D and E, G C and D, etc. Start with C and count up from there (i.e. C D E F G) and you'll see where the 4 and 5 are in C and you can do this in any key with any of the 12 starting notes. It is the most common blues and rock and roll progression there is. Thus, just about every old rock and roll song we listen to has blues elements to it...nothing really special about it IMHO. cool

Ps. The same holds true for our old country music...


Edited by Larryz (08/22/17 07:15 AM)
Edit Reason: ps.
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