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#2871101 - 08/05/17 11:00 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
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I've seen footage of Ashkenazy say basically the same thing to a group of Suzuki trained child pianists. Praising their "technically astute" playing, but also mentioning it's "emotionall vapid" effect. "Play the MUSIC as well as the NOTES" is also something he said.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/05/17 11:01 AM)
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#2871113 - 08/05/17 12:36 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser

Originally Posted By: d
As for Trucks, my impression is that he started as an imitator but has become a true innovator, incorporating MidEastern microtonality into something new, if reminiscent of a space age Muddy Waters.


Well, he started quite young, so we saw him start out as a talented, but not fully formed, kid. Now he's a mature artist. I think he's been watching Jeff Beck play slide. There's some very Eastern ornamentation going on there, zipping around both sides of the pitch, rather than just approaching it from below.


The scary-interesting thing is that while Trucks has achieved a remarkable degree of mastery in the past decade, he's still such a young cat that it's possible that he might surpass Jeff Beck as the master of pitch bending. freak


Originally Posted By: d
Many ignore that Waters was a master of deliberately offpitched notes.


Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
I'm kind of thinking, at least in this clip, that this is not so much deliberately subverting proper pitch, as much as not concerning himself with pitch as the primary issue. The main event is getting the emotion out.

That may not be the best illustration of his intentional control as the tweek he lays on the 3rd is somewhat subtle but make no mistake he did that deliberately as a way of conveying his emotional intent.

I'll look for a more definitive example.
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#2871252 - 08/06/17 12:06 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
d Offline
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OK, here's a Waters track that shows a bit more of his pitch sensibility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD9fRI_SgAg


During the 1st vocal verse note how he treats the word "each" [1:05~1:10]; similarly the word "sounds"in the 1st & 2nd lines of the 3rd verse [[2:20~2:50] gets a smeared bend.
The gtr solos that follow [3:17~5:00] get more extreme.
In the final verse he repeats the treatment of the word "sounds" from the 3rd verse.

Here's another example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiSoJL_PJMg


Of course bending pitch is a standard part of blues trad but I think that what MW did was particularly idiosyncratic & deliberate, going beyond the usual emotional touch to express a deeper anguish or even confusion or violence & to actually put those emotions into the minds of his audience.
Music does have a real physical effect---an impact, even, in the true sense of that word---on those in its presence.

BTW, for those who wonder if maybe MW was maybe just a bit sloppy, consider his skill as a singer---the cat knew when something was in tune or not.

This kinda thing's also heard in the wild bends of Muddy's main acolyte Buddy Guy.

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#2871272 - 08/06/17 02:54 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Yeah, well....when it comes to Muddy, all I can ask is.....

Ain't that a MAN? wink
Whitefang
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#2872495 - 08/12/17 06:11 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Bottom End Offline
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#2872498 - 08/12/17 06:13 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Bottom End Offline
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#2872505 - 08/12/17 07:06 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Bottom End]
Larryz Offline
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Cool video Bottom End! Jerry Reed is one of my all-time favorite guitar players and I love hearing him play with BB King and other greats like Chet Atkins and Glen Campbell who just passed on to play with them again. Those back up guys in your video were very lucky to get to play with Jerry and BB...here's Jerry with Glen:



cool
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#2872531 - 08/12/17 09:28 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
BTW, for those who wonder if maybe MW was maybe just a bit sloppy, consider his skill as a singer---the cat knew when something was in tune or not.


I would never consider approximate intonation, in the hands of a master, to be sloppy, but in the folk idiom (i.e. blues, in this case,) I can see how strobe-tuner-like pitch perfection might be viewed as a sort of first world concern. More a matter for academics than the folks on the porch. Not saying Muddy was't precisely controlling the shape of a bend which never quite arrives all the way at the target pitch, just that that sort of thing was likely delegated to the hands, while the head & the heart went about the more pressing matters of expressing what needed to be expressed.
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#2872559 - 08/12/17 02:18 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
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What I liked about those clips LARRY, was I've never known Jerry Reed as a guitarist,only familiar with him from the "Smokey/Bandit" movies. That's what I GET from not listening to a lot of country music I guess. blush
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (08/12/17 02:25 PM)
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#2872582 - 08/12/17 09:12 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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If you like that one, try this one of Jerry and Chet having fun. The guy was a phenomenal guitar player. He wrote quite a few tunes too, like Eastbound and Down for Smokey and the Bandit. He wrote, sang and played the guitar for the movie.



cool
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#2872597 - 08/13/17 04:39 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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shocked

YIKES!

Must have been him AND Chet John Sebastian wrote about in "Nashville Cats" that can "Pick more notes than the number of ants on a Tennessee anthill"! wink

I have certainly been missing out. Gonna have to go on the hunt for some CD re-ssues of Jerry's guitar work. I'd appreciate any suggestions. cool
Whitefang
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#2872640 - 08/13/17 11:02 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fang, He's got CD's out there of his greatest vocal hits and super hits. Any of them will showcase his guitar work as he always takes a lead or two and plays his own back up chords and fills. He has an instrumental album called Finger Dancing with two other guitar sessions players: Bobby Lovette and Mark Thompson. Jerry's Breakdown the song in the video with him and Chet is on that album. You can preview the whole album here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C25nd3NeyPw&index=5&list=PLs3UiDDnr8FkhsoUgMFR43iEvJbSATIoB

cool
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#2872662 - 08/13/17 01:07 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Quote:
I've never known Jerry Reed as a guitarist

freak

Back to the discussion...
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
Originally Posted By: d
BTW, for those who wonder if maybe MW was maybe just a bit sloppy, consider his skill as a singer---the cat knew when something was in tune or not.


I would never consider approximate intonation, in the hands of a master, to be sloppy, but in the folk idiom (i.e. blues, in this case,) I can see how strobe-tuner-like pitch perfection might be viewed as a sort of first world concern. More a matter for academics than the folks on the porch. Not saying Muddy was't precisely controlling the shape of a bend which never quite arrives all the way at the target pitch, just that that sort of thing was likely delegated to the hands, while the head & the heart went about the more pressing matters of expressing what needed to be expressed.


SF, you might not make the mistake of considering MW's playing sloppy; others might.

Just to make a fine point clear for certain, for masterful players such as Waters or Fred McDowell the awareness of the precise degree of pitch offset ( as in terms of cents, for ex ) may've been outside their realm of discussion but they were very precise in matching the pitch tones w/ their voices & they used these effects not just as self-expression but to communicate, to make listeners experience what they intended.

Self-expression & communication of feeling are not quite the same thing.
Self expression gets a feeling out; communication of feeling makes someone else understand the feeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCwUwx2vONk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZRv829tt5c


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Prof Fred McD conducts a master class in deliberate pitch distortion.
In the following vid chk how what he plays & sings at 0:50~0:57 shifts from being diff (in classical music it would be termed a "false relation", i.e., harmony & melody differ) to matching as he finishes the phrase.
That's followed by him stressing the vocal phrase "waves of the water" as he bends the pitch of there word "waves" [1:00~1:07].
Then he plays a truly extraordinary passage [1:15~1:27] that really demonstrates that the distortions of pitch effected her are deliberate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TyzAAwJnIw

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#2872682 - 08/13/17 02:57 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Thanks, Larry. When I have time maybe, I'll get back and give a listen. But I'll probably wind up just trying to find it and buy it anyway, even WITHOUT a "preview". Y'know I'm not that big on listening to much music off of YouTube clips.

So, d----

I imagine your snark implies your collection of NOEL HARRISON is pretty extensive? wink
Whitefang
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#2872861 - 08/14/17 09:17 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fang, I think you'll find the album interesting if you click on my link...YouTube is a great way to try before you buy. It will only get better on your home equipment, if you like it... cool
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#2872953 - 08/14/17 04:14 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Typical doltish drivel from the 2nd previous poster boy for excessive, pointless posts.

Let's stick somewhat to the subject, eh ?
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#2872961 - 08/14/17 05:07 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: d

Tell what y'think N know...
snax


@ D, I don't [think] the subject was ever clearly defined in the OP...just say'in. cool


Edited by Larryz (08/14/17 05:09 PM)
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#2872971 - 08/14/17 05:43 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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True, but I sorta thought it'd be obvious.
Why some play blues & how they do their work.
One thing it's not meant to include the typical drift that some engage in.

Jerry Reed's OK by all means but...let's stick to music.


How abt we take a listen to these 2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3RNbAA7Wgg


& a later version that includes some of BG's variations on pitch control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkGa_nAkzZo
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#2873030 - 08/14/17 09:53 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Why some play the blues and how they do their work? I think they are born with it...BB, Muddy, Buddy, Mississippi, Howlin, etc., much like this guy that demos how it came from way down deep:



cool
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#2873054 - 08/15/17 04:30 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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I would venture a guess that if you're NOT "born with it", then there must be something about it that appeals to your sensibilities or otherwise speaks to you. I "discovered" it at a very young age and just liked the way it sounded. And the fact that it DOESN'T require a lot of technical skills and formal training in order to play it also appeals to a lot of guys. It's basic and straightforward. And in the case of THIS song :

https://youtu.be/mG-OlTWl6jQy

might give ONE kind of "inspiration". wink
Whitefang
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#2873405 - 08/16/17 03:52 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Or it might if it linked. rolleyes

I disagree, LarZ, abt being "to the manor born"
What we do is not really inborn but learned.

Oh, & thanks for the JLH vid!
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#2873413 - 08/16/17 04:57 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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It's OK to disagree D, as we often do...although the "manor born" (whoever said it), usually refers to the upper crust, to which most blues players do not belong. I don't think non-guitar players and those that could care less about music, will understand what I'm getting at. The blues chords and scales strike a special place in my DNA. I don't play or sing the blues for the most part, but I appreciate those that do. The chords and scales from the blues makes up a major part of my playing and I feel it's inbred somehow. JLH definitely has it and the video makes reference to being born with it (i.e title: "JLH Born with the Blues." cool


Edited by Larryz (08/16/17 05:00 PM)
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#2873416 - 08/16/17 05:18 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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By extension it also means to a certain style
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#2873436 - 08/16/17 07:04 PM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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@ D, These were your words not mine. I have never used the phrase and didn't know what you were referring to. Here's what I found when I looked it up:

" Manor Born
The meaning of this phrase with the spelling of "manor" refers to a nobility of birth. In feudal England, the ruling nobility lived in the manor house, while the serfs or other peons did not. Hence, "to the manor born" refers to a noble, or "upper crust" birth and heritage."

There may be more uses or extensions that I am unaware of...at any rate, the title of the clip that you thanked me for refers to being born with the blues...especially when listening to JLH. There is more there in the soul than just what has been learned IMHO. cool
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#2873469 - 08/17/17 03:41 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Or it might if it linked. rolleyes

I disagree, LarZ, abt being "to the manor born"
What we do is not really inborn but learned.

Oh, & thanks for the JLH vid!


If you were referring to the YT link I posted, I had no trouble with it when I went back and "clicked" it.

"Inborn"? That sounds as if it would mean "genetic", which skills in music certainly aren't. But then again, it might mean "born to", which some say and think you HAVE to be in order to play the blues. Which I don't think is true either, "born to" seeming to indicate one must be born into some particular culture or environment that those old blues legends came from. Like Miles once claiming BLACK musicians are the only ones that can play jazz at any worthwhile level.

But these various ambiguous phrases are more or less a matter of personal semantics and can mean different things to different people, so it's best to ask what an individual might have meant when using one of them before expressing an assumption.
Whitefang
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#2873494 - 08/17/17 06:43 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fang, I didn't use the terms "Inborn" or "born to" but I wonder, Haven't you ever heard someone say "He's a natural"? This is what I am referring to, not just to race:

" NOUN
a person regarded as having an innate gift or talent for a particular task or activity:
"she was a natural for the sort of television work required of her"

For me, there was just something about that 7th chord that resonated. When playing blues, rockabilly, rock and roll, it was like I had discovered the moon the 1st time I used a C7 or an E7 or the A7. It's in my soul. Then that minor chord F#minor from the Fmajor in Sleep Walk came along and I use this technique in many of my tunes and jazz standards. Speaking of which, I fell in love with the 9th chords and abused them without knowing the difference between the 9th and minor7th formations...Then along came the 6th (actually a 13th the way I play it) and I started getting a steel guitar sound for jazzing up my country licks. I also got a horn section sound out of it...I have taken a lot of feedback from die hard country players that don't like minors, 7ths, 9ths, etc., and get accused of jazzing up old country songs. Too bad, I'm having fun!

OK, that's a long winded description of what's in my birthrights. There is something in my soul in each of these genres that motivates me to play the guitar and use it as my backing band. If I love the song, I'll play it. I don't get locked into the blues or [insert genre]. I like to be versatile and play many different styles. Those that I have mentioned (and many more) that are born with the blues, get locked into the blues and I admire them. It's just not what I was born with...I'm more of a rockabilly Scotty Moore type...that's what I feel. It's subjective and non-players will have no idea of what I'm trying to describe. I also love lead work and scale improvisation in addition to the chords mentioned above. cool
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#2873503 - 08/17/17 07:43 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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[1]
Quote:
...the YT link I posted...


https://youtu.be/mG-OlTWl6jQy =====> This site canít be reached
youtu.be unexpectedly closed the connection.
Try: Checking the connection
Checking the proxy and the firewall
ERR_CONNECTION_CLOSED

But please take that subject up elsewhere; it has no place here, really.
rolleyes

-----------------------------------------------------------
[2]
As for the confusion over terms, perhaps I should've typed "to the manner born", thereby getting some extra points for the pun besides the point, which is what we should get back to rather than chasing tangents b/c one member likes to do that.

------------------------------------------
[3]
Music is deeply ingrained in humans in at least 2 ways.
It's not only a social/cultural thing that likely predated our advanced development (or maybe paralleled it---gibbons & perhaps other species have been observed engaged in what can only be considered group vocalizing & movement aka singing/dancing) but there's a real physical effect that sound waves have on our bodies + the actual math/physics of acoustics that underlies the structures of music in cultures world-wide.

However, those structures do not universally carry the same meanings.
A b3rd didn't convey sadness in all cultures (although w/ the dominance of American pop music we may be headed that way).
The meaning music has is always defined by culture.
There's no specific inborn quality, no matter how natural it may seem to us.

That said, let's take a step back to revisit an earlier visitor, Jerry Reed...who provides some clarification on a certain long-debated question...

crazyfingers starts at 1:28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22tA-FiXeu8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-TVrR8wZc


&, of course, the answer is....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbpGMF4bcbU




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#2873508 - 08/17/17 08:16 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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The flat 3rd and the minor key works great for blues whether it's sad in all cultures really doesn't matter to me...here's a song I learned to play in Gminor on the Keyboard (my bass player stole the riff for If Your River Was Whiskey LOL!) by the Doobies. One of my favorites:



Thanks for bringing it back to Jerry Reed playing Honky Tonk with Boots. Both the Sax and Guitar version, although Jerry is doing what I like to do and improvising the guitar version of Honky Tonk without really playing Honky Tonk LOL!

I'm not chasing tangents and not really using the same words that both of you guys put in quotes...so, I hope you'll just read my born with it post for what it's worth. Something or nothing? You can say: "There's no specific inborn quality, no matter how natural it may seem to us." But, it does not ring true for me. It's a matter of opinion and I'm just expressing mine. It's OK if you wish to disagree and state this as fact as that's what you truly believe... cool
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#2873512 - 08/17/17 08:33 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Naw, LZ, yer not the "tangentialist" (& I think ya already knew that).

As for the rest, there are opinions & there are facts, even though that's something some are trying to destroy these days.
Not everything can be reduced to opinion.
Everything can be reduced to fact, though & while I, too, sometimes feel connections w/things that seem incredible, there's a reason the word incredible applies. grin

Actually I thought I brought it back to "Bloomers" & cross-cultural immersion in the blues, a subject to which y'can relate, I'm sure. wink

I'll haveta dig the Doobs another time but I'll be back...
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#2873513 - 08/17/17 08:38 AM Re: Why Me & Him / Why You ? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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d;

[1] If you had a problem with the link, how could you possibly be of the opinion that it has no place here? In fact, I just now tried it and had no problem. wink

[2] Confusion over terms usually occurs when someone uses vernacular they're more familiar with that few people outside of the first person's personal sphere rarely if ever use. Like a friend of mine who always used to say, ie; "I carried him to the store." instead of, "I gave hm a ride to the store".

[3] It's difficult to pinpoint just when and how humans developed what THEY( we?) call "music". Emulating what they observed primates and other species doing? Quite possibly. And true, music always had a specific connection to specific cultures, and the development and evolution of each culture's music is connected to their intended use of it. My guess is largely in religious rites and ceremonies as the earliest human compositions were largely in tribute to our particular deities. From God to "Gaboolah" the spirit that shows his face each full moon. wink

Larry:

I never once thought you WERE referring to race, I was just mentioning someone who tried to impose that opinion. And yes, I have heard the expression "A natural" in the sense you convey. But not all blues "legends" were"naturals" but instead were drawn to play the music out of a strong desire to express themselves in that manner. And the point of my link was to also make clear that despite the postulting of others here, that those cats never thought in those certain terms. They just played( and often not that technically skilled, as Josh White in my clip demonstrates) what they could in the best of their (in some cases) limited abilities. They had no idea of what Pentatonic, Chromatic or Mylodian scales were. Or even that they were playing 7th, 6th or diminished chords. If how they held a chord sounded good to them, they worked out a way to use it in a song. And the only "pitch" they were familiar with was probably what someone does in a baseball game or that hot, sticky black stuff you slop on the roof of a building or house. Most of those guys were self taught or learned from someone ELSE who was self taught, and they did their best to do what other before them did and some even tried(and succeeded) to make some improvements.

A little education can be a dangerous thing, and my feeling is that if people keep trying to approach and play blues too academically it'll drain it of all it's substance.
Whitefang
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