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#2867161 - 07/15/17 08:07 PM Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil...
miden Offline
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Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 2107
Loc: Australia
and other makers posing the question where to and where from (my paraphrasing)

Particularly good,is the third post, very well written imo

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=57635

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KC Island
#2867169 - 07/15/17 08:45 PM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: miden]
drawback Online   content
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 3133
Loc: Victoria, BC Canada
Wow. Invite that feller over here.

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#2867188 - 07/15/17 10:59 PM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: drawback]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 4624
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: drawback
Wow. Invite that feller over here.



i think you are referring to Kevin N. He's a regular on the Korg forum. Mostly Latest News.

Have enjoyed his posts for some time there. We both used to work for the same co, Sun Micro some yrs ago. Different countries, different depts. Typical big co stuff.

So you can catch up on his thoughts on the Korg forum. He is one of the few that understands the bigger picture. He can support his opinions quite well.

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#2867192 - 07/16/17 02:07 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: miden]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
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Originally Posted By: miden
and other makers posing the question where to and where from (my paraphrasing)

Particularly good,is the third post, very well written imo

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=57635


I disagree on Kurzweil VAST is so hard to edit.
It has a learning curve, especially when coming from other synth architectures and as a newbie like I was, but itīs not too hard to learn.
I use edited or built from scratch programs and setups exclusively on my PC361 which I bought to learn VAST.
In addition, the KURZ keyboards are top range MIDI keyboard controllers and will only be outperformed by dedicated masterkeyboard controllers like Viscount/Physis K4/K5 or discontinued MIDI processor devices like the Miditemp PMM88E.

A.C.

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#2867206 - 07/16/17 05:30 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: Al Coda]
RudyS Online   content
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Coda. based on all your post, I don't think you are representing the "average" user! (I mean that as a compliment;))

About Kurzweil, I don't know. I owned a (second hand) PC3 and had quite some troubles with, so I never really connected with that board. But also sound wise I never was too enthusiastic. I really liked the orchestral stuff. But the pianos, e piano's, hammond and synths always sound a but thin or static. Don't get me wrong, they were certainly good enough for live usage, but in my opinion, they can not compete with today's Nords or Yamaha's. No shame in that given the "old" technology, but there are still people who are saying the PC3 belongs to the top boards for synths and e.piano, which in my opinion isn't true.

Above opinion is based on the presets only, because I never took the time to grasp VAST fully.
_________________________
Rudy

Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2867212 - 07/16/17 06:25 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: RudyS]
GregC Offline
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Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 4624
Loc: Discovery Bay, California
Originally Posted By: RudyS
Coda. based on all your post, I don't think you are representing the "average" user! (I mean that as a compliment;))

About Kurzweil, I don't know. I owned a (second hand) PC3 and had quite some troubles with, so I never really connected with that board. But also sound wise I never was too enthusiastic. I really liked the orchestral stuff. But the pianos, e piano's, hammond and synths always sound a but thin or static. Don't get me wrong, they were certainly good enough for live usage, but in my opinion, they can not compete with today's Nords or Yamaha's. No shame in that given the "old" technology, but there are still people who are saying the PC3 belongs to the top boards for synths and e.piano, which in my opinion isn't true.

Above opinion is based on the presets only, because I never took the time to grasp VAST fully.


i think you are correct. Some keyboardists are sterling sound programmers.

I am not 1 of them, programming from scratch is simply not 1 of my strengths.

I can handle basic edits, adding FX, etc, etc. No problem there.

IMO, when you create music, you could or should emphasize or show your strengths. along the way, a keyboardist can improve on other areas , as desired or needed.

There is a lot to work on to be a good keyboardist and there are only so many hours in the day, the week, etc. I would sooner outsource any need for a custom sound since its quite affordable and it saves me days of trying to crack the code, days I don't have to give up.

Its the usual personal preference.

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#2867215 - 07/16/17 07:13 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: RudyS]
Al Coda Offline
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Originally Posted By: RudyS
Coda. based on all your post, I don't think you are representing the "average" user! (I mean that as a compliment;))


Well, thank you very much ! smile

When I read that other thread linked above, I recognized the guy talking from the older K2500/2600 series of Kurzweil keyboards and rack-modules.
Indeed there it is quite cumbersome walking thru all the layers when just only editing a filter setting,- but that really comes from the architecture of the older series machines where cascading layers was much more limited.
The same rules in regards of KDFX and the PC3 FX architecture.
On the PC3 itīs much easier than in any K-model !

So, for the actual series of PC3 and Forte machines that isnīt really representative.
Now you might complain the countless factory programs coming w/ the PC3 series where many if not most were designed the same way, ignoring the new possibilities which partially came much later w/ OS updates and after the PC3 was released (much too early).
At least for synth programs, when designed and programmed right, itīs easy to just have the (or a single) filter in just only one layer, the layers acting as OSCs cascading into that single filter-layer making editing of filter itself, filter ENV and AMP ENV as easy as in any other synth.

I also cannot accept the "average" user buying complex (in this case half-modular) machines not willing to learn and/ or just only want to play preprogrammed presets.
There are much better options then,- at least playing a NORD almost completely eliminates a learning curve for the average intelligent user.

For my impression, the poster of that article gives not the right picture of actual Kurzweil machines which are the Forte, Forte7 and Forte SE.

Originally Posted By: RudyS

About Kurzweil, I don't know. I owned a (second hand) PC3 and had quite some troubles with, so I never really connected with that board.


I bought a new one as a blowout in 2011,- and the biggest trouble I had w/ the minor pitchwheel mechanics design flaw which randomly leaves the pitchwheel centered w/ values around +/- a few cents, but that relativated when my tech replaceded the ALFA pot by a sealed ALPS, so pitch wheel position differences now reduced down to +/- 2cents at max. which is very playable even w/ heavy pitchbend usage.

Otherwise, the machine is very reliable up to now.

Originally Posted By: RudyS

But also sound wise I never was too enthusiastic. I really liked the orchestral stuff.


The orchestral stuff, for me, was important too ...

Originally Posted By: RudyS

But the pianos, e piano's, hammond and synths always sound a but thin or static.


I think the pianos work very good in a band context and/or playback.
I donīt play solo-acoustic piano concerts,- so for me it works, especially when I layer e-pianos and pads,- also the ones coming from other keyboards and/or modules.

I agree the Rhodes doesnīt play too well in regards of velocity.
I like the wurli as also the clav.
There are "better", more detailed sounds everywhere, but my experience is, they often donīt cut thru and all the bells and whistles get lost in a mix,- live and recording.

One of the big plusses for me is the freedom chaining much more insert-FX for a single program than I can do in any other brand keyboard or module.
The drawback is I have to be satisfied w/ 2 or 3 programs in a single setup then, but thatīs not much different in other machines since it all depends on overall available DSP ressources.

I really recommend trying and carefully use the 2-band enhancer in combination w/ the EQ and available compressor types for the Rhodes which improved the overall dullness a lot and smoothes out velocity jumps to a degree !

The KB3 in PC3 for me is the best organ emulation in any workstation keyboard available,- but you have to dive in and tweak it.
I did incl. OD and leslie sim,- now using just only 1 double- and 1 single leslie FX chain and forgot all the others.
EHX Lester K and Vent II are better for sure,- but for practising, rehearsal, jam or the small gig, Iīm happy thereīs the internal sim.
Hey, itīs a single manual organ "clone" which is still good enough when organ isnīt the main axe and in a multi-keyboard rig.
When I want a better organ I buy a dedicated great clone and Iīd do that also when playing a NORD, KORG or Yammi.

On the PC3 I hated I cannot tweak the C/V though.

Originally Posted By: RudyS

Don't get me wrong, they were certainly good enough for live usage, but in my opinion, they can not compete with today's Nords or Yamaha's.


NORD in general and Yamaha, at least Montage, cannot compete MIDI-wise w/ KURZ in any way !
MIDI is extremely important for me and Iīm sure Iīm not alone.
Sound alone is not everything for me.

Originally Posted By: RudyS

No shame in that given the "old" technology, but there are still people who are saying the PC3 belongs to the top boards for synths and e.piano, which in my opinion isn't true.


PC3 is a top MIDI controller for sure !
Sounds are matter of taste and how using īem in music.
I really wanted the old on tape recorded samples from KURZ.
I never rely on only one board, so the KURZ is just only a part of my rig and I use it for what it does best, the same how I use the others as well.
In fact and regardless what I used in the past and use today, I always try to squeeze the most out of everything and that worked for me always.

When I imagine KURZ changes the route, releasing small toy gear w/ mediocre MIDI and just only for usage together w/ the actual popular laptop based rigs, Iīd be very disappointed.
I LOVE they take care for hi-end MIDI.

Originally Posted By: RudyS

Above opinion is based on the presets only, because I never took the time to grasp VAST fully.


Yeah, that might be the mistake.
OTOH, youīre not wrong per sé w/ the presets.
I hated the program volumes were all over the place as also there were samples used, introducing aliasing in high ranges, where VA-waveforms would have been the better choice.
Blame the marketing staff forcing sounddesigners composing patches in a hurry or mimik patches from K-series (which isnīt possible 100% always).

Anyway,- at least Iīm the one not buying machines because of the factory library.

I also think the Forte is a step up from PC3.
I didnīt buy because it doesnīt have the ribbon controller connector and because part of itīs sound library is the PC3 programs and setups I already have as well as portions from KORE64.
I expect the next KURZ is some step up again and might introduce more DSP power, faster VA modifiers processing and some more better samples as well.
I really thing the Forteīs piano and epiano samples are good and the FlashPlay load times as well as the overall boot-time, much shorter than a Kronos p.ex., are welcome.

Thereīs too much I dislike w/ NORD keyboards.
They are good, but for me too limited for the pricerange.

A.C.



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#2867217 - 07/16/17 07:40 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: Al Coda]
Delaware Dave Offline
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I read the SOS topic and learned nothing new. Kurz is a small company so don't expect new major products every year, there isn't a large enough staff for that. And don't tell me that Nord blows them away, that is BS. Nord's forte has always been electromechanical and acoustic piano. How does Nord's single layer strings, brass , violins, oboes, any non electromechanical for that matter stack up? Do you want to go instrument by instrument? In fact Kurzweil delivers 10 times the number of instruments that Nord does, and they don't have to be loaded, they are already in the instrument. Any effect can be applied to them; they are all tweakable at the envelope level. Multi-timbrality, how does Nord do with that? How is Nord as a Midi controller? All of that and delivered at a price less than Nord.
I
When I purchased my PC3 it was a decision between it and the E3. When I looked at what both delivered for the price it was a no brainer for me.
_________________________
57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; www.dyinbreedband.com; thewildthingsrock.webs.com/

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#2867220 - 07/16/17 07:44 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: Al Coda]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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Loc: Springfield, Virginia
From someone who very recently spent a good week (maybe 2) programming VAST on my PC3x and creating a half dozen or so of my own patches:

Yes this is an extremely deep synth to program with endless possibilities and has some really cool capabilities. It's a sound explorer's dream synth come true. Except...I find it really tedious, and that's with me only using maybe 3 or 4 layers to explore the interaction between layers and algorithms. I also found the end result was way less satisfying then the VSTs I program and obviously no where near that of an analog knobby synth if that the sound you're trying for (I wasn't). Admittedly 1-2 weeks on this synth is not very long so take it for what it's worth.

I'm always up for exploring new methods of synthesis. Maybe it's old age but when the process just wears me out with nothing substantial above and beyond what I can get with a much easier interface/process I throw in the towel. For digital sounds/programming I'm sticking with a handful of VSTs. To each his own.

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#2867226 - 07/16/17 08:07 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: Delaware Dave]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
don't tell me that Nord blows them away, that is BS.

Who's saying that? They're just different boards with different strengths. Making your choice between a PC3 and an Electro is like choosing between an SUV and a motorcycle. The "better" choice depends on your goal.
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#2867246 - 07/16/17 10:43 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: AnotherScott]
Delaware Dave Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Who's saying that?

"..But also sound wise I never was too enthusiastic.. but in my opinion, they (Kurzweil) cannot compete with today's Nords..."

So today's Kurzweil (Forte) cannot compete with today's Nord? To that I say BS for all the reasons I previously mentioned.
_________________________
57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; www.dyinbreedband.com; thewildthingsrock.webs.com/

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#2867247 - 07/16/17 11:00 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: Delaware Dave]
RudyS Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Who's saying that?

"..But also sound wise I never was too enthusiastic.. but in my opinion, they (Kurzweil) cannot compete with today's Nords..."

So today's Kurzweil (Forte) cannot compete with today's Nord? To that I say BS for all the reasons I previously mentioned.


Dave I am not talking about the Forte. Never played that! I am talking about the PC3, the only Kurzweil I owned and played.

Don't get me wrong. The PC3 is a fantastic instrument. As Al Coda mentioned, the midi capabilities are awesome. The workflow is really good (when I had to make complex setups on the kurz it was very easy. Also assigning controllers to functions.).

I am just saying that if I only take the sound aspect, my PC3 was not as inspiring as my Electro to my ears.

I would have kept my PC3 btw if I didn't have the troubles. It is the most versatile board I ever owned. Sold it to someone who used is at home only, so he didn't have the risks I had live.
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Rudy

Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2867252 - 07/16/17 11:13 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: RudyS]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: RudyS
[I am just saying that if I only take the sound aspect, my PC3 was not as inspiring as my Electro to my ears.

I'd agree if you're talking about piano and organ. For other sounds, I'd give the edge to Kurz.
_________________________
Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

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#2867253 - 07/16/17 11:20 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: AnotherScott]
RudyS Online   content
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: RudyS
[I am just saying that if I only take the sound aspect, my PC3 was not as inspiring as my Electro to my ears.

I'd agree if you're talking about piano and organ. For other sounds, I'd give the edge to Kurz.


Primarily yes. And e-piano's as well.
_________________________
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Stuff: Nord Electro 3, Casio PX5s, DSI Mopho keys, Nord Lead A1, Korg N5, Korg Poly 61, QSC K10 and a Shure SM58.

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#2867286 - 07/16/17 02:26 PM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: RudyS]
erik_nie Offline
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Registered: 12/17/13
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Loc: The Netherlands
once had an E2 and Stage 2, sold it within a week. If you are spoiled with al the options from a PC3, you quickly run into restrictions:
I use a a-piano+fmpiano+ strings where I can balance using sliders-> not possible on a Stage2 (strings are not the same quality as the Kurweil)
I have setups with 4 splits and some double layers: easy for the PC3K

I now use a PC3K6 on top of a Forte 7.
Use the Forte 7 even for stereo backing track + click track (on a separate output)
Super stable and still 3 GB sample space.

Although I like the looks and simplicity of the Nord, it is just not possible to use it in my all-round band.

I'm not a VAST hero, but am always able to tweak presets into what I need.
_________________________
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#2867291 - 07/16/17 02:57 PM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: AnotherScott]
rockinroller Offline
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Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 166
Loc: Detroit
I've spent most of my professional career (40+ years) performing and covering Bob Seger's music. For a keyboardist that means using acoustic piano and B3 sounds about 90% of the time. In fact I rarely perform without two keyboards, finding it more convenient to dedicate one to the B3 emulation, while the other primarily provides the piano section. I've been in and out of owning just about every keyboard either alleged to deliver the "best" emulations of either of those instruments (at the time), or based on my personal interpretations of what "best" meant. The B3 side of my equation has always been the most elusive, with that unique organic blend of drawbars and a Leslie effect so difficult to obtain in anything less than a 200lb rig (not incl. a Leslie!). In the past 6 years I've purchased (and sold) several PC3's (a couple of them being the 61 note version, which was reason enough to not keep them--based on the synth type key and limitations inherent with a 61 note board--even used as a 2nd board), HS's XK and SK series Hammond emulators, Roland's VR-09, the Mojo 61, and most recently, Nord's E5-73. After ALL of that, I have been the most fulfilled--and continue to come back to--Kurzweil. I've had Kurz's Artis 7 board for the longest time (3 years), which frankly reproduces both the organs and the pianos extremely well--to the extent that only the live sound system that amplifies the sounds remains the biggest variable in quality emulation. I replaced the Nord 5D with Kurzweil's PC3a7, which I am currently using as my go-to B3. IMO the organs that I've programmed into that PC3 (and the Artis 7 for the most part) are more accurate than what I got out of the Nord, Roland and even the Hammond portables. Frankly, it's been my experiences with using the Kurzweil products that if the board doesn't have what you're looking for, you are able to dive into the VAST architecture and create it yourself. I don't consider myself to be a techno-whiz by any stretch, and barely am able to keep pace with general computer technologies. Maybe it's the time spent over the past 6 years getting into the VAST architecture that allows me to say this, but I am convinced that once the processes and procedures are attempted in order to find and save that perfect sound, and those processes and procedures are repeated, it's all "muscle memory" after that. And the beauty of VAST is that I don't think you can ever reach the end of its abilities. If you are willing to explore and experience the VAST process and have half a head on your shoulders, I believe Kurzweil's PC3 and related boards have endless possibilities in sound reproduction. And personally, I'd hold my VAST-created "real piano" and "Hammond B3 w/Leslie" up against any manufacturer's stock product.
_________________________
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#2867295 - 07/16/17 03:45 PM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: erik_nie]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: erik_nie
once had an E2 and Stage 2, sold it within a week. If you are spoiled with al the options from a PC3, you quickly run into restrictions:
I use a a-piano+fmpiano+ strings where I can balance using sliders-> not possible on a Stage2 (strings are not the same quality as the Kurweil)
I have setups with 4 splits and some double layers: easy for the PC3K

Back to my motorcycle vs SUV analogy. A Nord just isn't going to do what a PC3K does, it's a different kind of tool. For many people (though not everyone, as you can see from the post below yours), the Nord does what they need better than the Kurz does, even though it isn't nearly as flexible. To me, this is like complaining that a Hammond B3 or a real Rhodes or a real Clavinet can't do what your PC3K can. No, of course it can't. So?

Originally Posted By: erik_nie
I now use a PC3K6 on top of a Forte 7.
Use the Forte 7 even for stereo backing track + click track (on a separate output)
Super stable and still 3 GB sample space.

Although I like the looks and simplicity of the Nord, it is just not possible to use it in my all-round band.

If you preferred some of its sounds or ergonomic features, you might be able to do all that you need by combining the Nord with one Kurzweil, as opposed to using the pair of Kurzweils (using MIDI to allow you to trigger whatever sound you wanted from whichever action... the Kurzweils are particularly adept at all kinds of MIDI tricks).
_________________________
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#2867301 - 07/16/17 04:57 PM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: AnotherScott]
Tom Williams Offline
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Registered: 01/04/14
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Having immersed myself in K2x00 and PC3 VAST for the past 3 years or so, I find it surprisingly easy to navigate -- easier, e.g., than my Alesis Fusion was. If I want to duplicate a control or parameter across multiple layers, I either copy the layers and change their keymaps or, if the layers are already there, I just use the "up one layer" button to go to the exact same page on the next layer.

Regarding the two-keyboard problem on a PC361, I address it by driving layer 1 / channel 1 with an 88-key MIDI controller playing the PC3's piano, and keeping the PC3 keyboard itself "centered" on layer/channel 2 playing a KB3 with Bill W's wonderful single Leslie.

I don't really know the current Korg or Yamaha offerings enough to compare editing environments, but I have to wonder if those boxes have parameters such as "Key state" or "Channel state", let alone "Pitch wheel absolute value"; or if they have anything equivalent to FUNs allowing multiple controllers to interact.

All of which is to say that VAST is pretty darned useful for a >20-year-old programming architecture. I'm happy with it, as are my listeners.
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<First name><At>AirNetworking<dot>com
PC361, AX-Synth, K2600S
M-Audio Keystation 88, Axiom 61, Boss RT-20

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#2867308 - 07/16/17 06:03 PM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: Tom Williams]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom Williams

I don't really know the current Korg or Yamaha offerings enough to compare editing environments, but I have to wonder if those boxes have parameters such as "Key state" or "Channel state", let alone "Pitch wheel absolute value"; or if they have anything equivalent to FUNs allowing multiple controllers to interact.


Korg has the AMS Mixer which provides a number FUN equivalents. Not as many, but they're all very useful. So yes, A+B and AxB are included. I don't believe Yamaha has an equivalent.

Busch.


Edited by burningbusch (07/16/17 06:04 PM)

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#2867336 - 07/16/17 11:52 PM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: burningbusch]
ahutnick Offline
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Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 88
Loc: san francisco bay area
FWIW The Forte has had more updates to it than any keyboard I've owned in the two years I've owned one.

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#2867337 - 07/17/17 01:22 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: AnotherScott]
erik_nie Offline
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Registered: 12/17/13
Posts: 91
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

If you preferred some of its sounds or ergonomic features, you might be able to do all that you need by combining the Nord with one Kurzweil, as opposed to using the pair of Kurzweils (using MIDI to allow you to trigger whatever sound you wanted from whichever action... the Kurzweils are particularly adept at all kinds of MIDI tricks).


Tried that, but this has 2 problems:

I want to have sliders/buttons to realtime control my sounds:
My Forte setups have sliders for strings-level, pas-level, some EQ-ing.
In my piano patch I can control volume for: strings, FM piano and have a basic EQ in sliders with bass and treble (used the frequencies from the Nord wink ) to make the piano bright or boomy to use it for rock and ballads. Also want to control reverb.

One thing I use is the option to mute a layer (strings), but the sound remains until I release the sustain pedal of keys. Like in the end of a song I put some strings and low piano, then press sustainpedal and mute strings (the low strings keep sounding) and use an ending arpeggio up (without strings).

This all is easy in the Forte (or any Kurzweil).
Have the 3 GB to load own multi-level samples and backing tracks is not possible on a PC3K6 with only 128MB memory, although i did this by turning down the sample-rate, use mono samples for click and very long loading times to set it up.

The Nord Stage 2 has hardly any control sliders/buttons and limited midi capabilities.

The final reason to have 2 kurzweils is that I have a double backup. I have bread and butter sounds in both board and could finish a gig with only one board.



Edited by erik_nie (07/17/17 01:24 AM)
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#2867344 - 07/17/17 02:34 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: erik_nie]
RudyS Online   content
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Cool setup Erik. Indeed that rig will give you a lot of capabilities!
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#2867352 - 07/17/17 03:58 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: RudyS]
Aidan Offline
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The subtext of the OP in that thread, surely, is that manufacturers realise that the glory days of fully self-contained hardware workstations are behind us, because so many people with those sort of needs are increasingly turning to software? Even Dave Weiser's Kurzweil keyboard army for musical theatre is now incorporating computer instruments. Manufacturers increasingly see cheaper products as the way to go, because they'll sell more units and most people at that price point won't be bothered about using software.
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#2867364 - 07/17/17 06:11 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: erik_nie]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: erik_nie
Tried that, but this has 2 problems:

I want to have sliders/buttons to realtime control my sounds:
My Forte setups have sliders for strings-level, pas-level, some EQ-ing.
In my piano patch I can control volume for: strings, FM piano and have a basic EQ in sliders with bass and treble (used the frequencies from the Nord wink ) to make the piano bright or boomy to use it for rock and ballads. Also want to control reverb.

Electro 5 has the volume control for piano and strings, and real-time EQ and reverb knobs... but true, you can't have a third sound at the same time (FM piano). However, Nord Stage 2/2EX/3 would all do all of the above.

Originally Posted By: erik_nie
One thing I use is the option to mute a layer (strings), but the sound remains until I release the sustain pedal of keys. Like in the end of a song I put some strings and low piano, then press sustainpedal and mute strings (the low strings keep sounding) and use an ending arpeggio up (without strings).

This all is easy in the Forte (or any Kurzweil).

I think the Nord Stage 2/2EX/3 all do that as well. (Although seamless sound transition is a new feature on the 3, even the 2/2EX had that when switching between 2 slots of the same preset, so I think this would work if piano was in one slot and strings were in the other.)

But even though the Nord may have actually been able to do those things, there are certainly things the Kurz will do that the Nord will not. But that's the virtue of having both... having the Nord there does not prevent you from continuing to use the Kurz for all the things it does better, it just adds the things the Nord does better.

Originally Posted By: erik_nie
The Nord Stage 2 has hardly any control sliders/buttons and limited midi capabilities.

But since the Kurz has such strong MIDI functions, you can combine the strengths. If you wanted to do some fancy layering on the Kurz that is indeed beyond what the Nord can do, but you prefer, say, one of the Nord piano sounds, you can create a multi-sound Kurz patch that incorporates a Nord piano sound, getting all the benefits of the Kurz' additional controls and MIDI capabilities, while still being able to get the benefit of any Nord sounds you prefer, along with the Nord's own ergonomics when you prefer to use them to manage their own sounds.

Originally Posted By: erik_nie
The final reason to have 2 kurzweils is that I have a double backup. I have bread and butter sounds in both board and could finish a gig with only one board.

Yes, I'll give you that. ;-) I mean, you could probably manage to hobble through a gig with just the Nord as well, but there is some security/comfort in having a backup plan that, not only can get you through the gig, but gets through it with basically all the same operations and sounds that you're used to. There is also less total learning curve, if you're learning your way around two very similar boards rather than two very different ones. Even though some things are simpler on the Nord than the Kurz, it's still simpler to get around one interface than two. So if you are going to have the Kurz anyway, a second Kurz could be the simplest way to go, and there's virtue in that. With such similar operation on the two boards, besides less to learn in your prep time, you might also benefit from the more consistent operation and less different stuff to be thinking about during the performance. Even though it's not my preference, I did have a gig where circumstances were such that I ended up using a MOX8 and a MOX6 as my two boards, and there was some nice simplicity there in knowing that, no matter which board I wanted to bring the strings up on, the operation was the same.
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#2867558 - 07/18/17 12:00 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: AnotherScott]
erik_nie Offline
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Registered: 12/17/13
Posts: 91
Loc: The Netherlands
Yeah, the difference is not that big and probably could gig fine with a Nord and a Kurz.

The setup would need a midi-cable and thus depenencies between the two synths. Tricky when you update stuff.
In the end I use around 10 setups in my Forte (Apiano, Wurly, CP70, strings, B3-bottom, and few song specific splits) and 30 setups in my PC3K6 (some generic brass, strings, organs and leads and few songs specific splits/sounds)

I control everything from the Quick-access/Favorites buttons.

Tweaking sounds to fit in the Mix and have the right volume takes years, and still I'm working on that. Listening to recordings is frustrating, but helps.

But that's all part of the fun, at least for me.
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#2867585 - 07/18/17 06:14 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: rockinroller]
Al Quinn Offline
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Registered: 08/13/14
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Originally Posted By: rockinroller
I'd hold my VAST-created "real piano" and "Hammond B3 w/Leslie" up against any manufacturer's stock product.

Can you post some audio? I'd love to hear these patches.
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#2867588 - 07/18/17 06:21 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: RudyS]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: RudyS
Cool setup Erik. Indeed that rig will give you a lot of capabilities!


I'd just be a bit nervous standing on that much firewood. crazy
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#2867599 - 07/18/17 06:57 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: Al Quinn]
rockinroller Offline
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Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 166
Loc: Detroit
Here's a cell phone video from a gig last month. Not great but enough to possibly extract some of those Kurzweil capabilities with regard to AP and Hammond sounds. I was somewhat limited in that gig as I had to play LH bass as well as the keys parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UGb6-brQOQ


Edited by rockinroller (07/18/17 07:05 AM)
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#2867600 - 07/18/17 07:01 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: Al Quinn]
rickzjamm Offline
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Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 624
I used to use my RD-800 & NE5D for gigs, a set up that could cover anything, but now the Forte does the job of two work horses. The custom AP's, Ep's & organs are superior to the RD & NE5D. I'm always getting compliments on my organ ( Forte organ that is wink ) & how authentic & massive it sounds. The program was designed by David Weiser, check out his sonic samples on his website. His AP's & EP's are spot on!!!!!!
I've owned several Nords & the Forte beats them all... IMHO.
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#2867619 - 07/18/17 08:51 AM Re: Interesting thread from SOS on kurzweil... [Re: rockinroller]
Al Quinn Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 08/13/14
Posts: 783
Loc: Center Moriches, NY
Originally Posted By: rockinroller
Here's a cell phone video from a gig last month. Not great but enough to possibly extract some of those Kurzweil capabilities with regard to AP and Hammond sounds. I was somewhat limited in that gig as I had to play LH bass as well as the keys parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UGb6-brQOQ

Thanks rockinroller. Nice sounds and performance. Looks like a fun gig!
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