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#2864898 - 07/06/17 10:01 PM Korg Grandstage (Released)
burningbusch Offline
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Intro Video


Six APs: Berlin, Heidelberg, Austria, Japan, as well as a newly sampled Italian grand piano, Upright.

"Responding to the requests of numerous professional players, the Grandstage also provides monaural piano sounds for all of these acoustic piano programs. These monaural piano sounds were voiced not from a mono mix of stereo samples but from monaurally recorded sources, and will shine clearly even within a band's mix."

Eight velocity layer clavs (all pickups), Looks like new Pianet sample as well.

Examples:
Main PIano
https://soundcloud.com/korg/dimensions?in=korg/sets/grandstage-sgx-2

German Grand (Mono)
https://soundcloud.com/korg/grand-island?in=korg/sets/grandstage-sgx-2

Italian Grand
https://soundcloud.com/korg/bedtime?in=korg/sets/grandstage-sgx-2

Upright
https://soundcloud.com/korg/blues-feelings?in=korg/sets/grandstage-sgx-2

All APs on Soundcloud
https://soundcloud.com/korg/sets/grandstage-sgx-2

Engines: SGX-2, Ep-1, CX3, Vox, Compact, AL-1, HD-1

Weight: 88: 44 lbs; 73: 37.5 lbs

Stand included

Price unknown

Owner's Manual
Sound Name List

Busch.

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#2864900 - 07/06/17 10:19 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Ah crap, price unknown. Soon enough I imagine.
Monaural versions of the pianos is great response to feedback.
73k version is interesting choice, gets weight down around a CP4.
It's going to have the RH3 in it. Please say the RH3 is not the end of Korg's efforts to make a great feeling and playing weighted action. Is "Premium" RH3 an adjective or a distinguishing version of the action?
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#2864901 - 07/06/17 10:23 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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RH3, no aftertouch.

Busch.

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#2864902 - 07/06/17 10:26 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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I just caught that in the promo video... No AT is ok with me on the weighted hammer action. Can't wait for a shop to have one on the floor. As usual, I've had no trouble getting on the Roland RD-2000 or the Yamaha Montage 8. But I can't play a Kurzweil Forte or Nord Piano or Stage 3 anywhere nearby. Hopefully the Grandstage is as easy to find on the floor as the SV-1.

Busch, did I just read that the substantial and funky stand (and pedal) are included?
Ah f*ck. This is not going to be a trickle down Kronos to $1799 stage piano range.
Definitely over $2k.
Now, what if I don't want the stand?
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#2864908 - 07/06/17 10:36 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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According to a post on FB the 88 = $2499.

Busch.

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#2864917 - 07/06/17 11:29 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
zephonic Offline
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So want to buy this!

If it sounds like the Krome or better, and its action is at least as good as or better than the NordPiano, this could be a painfully expensive year for me.

But since I'm working with my laptop now anyway, the sensible thing is to just get KeyScape and control that from the Nord.

Still, I want this...


Are the specs available yet?

Yup, they're here:

http://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/grandstage/

Dimensions (W x D x H)
88-key: 1131 mm x 359 mm x 140 mm / 51.64" x 14.13" x 5.51" (excluding music stand)
73-key: 1099 mm x 359 mm x 140 mm / 43.27" x 14.13" x 5.51" (excluding music stand)

Weight
88-key: 20.0 kg / 44.09 lbs (excluding music stand)
73-key: 17.0 kg / 37.48 lbs (excluding music stand)


I think the width of the 88 is 1311 mm, not 1131.


Edited by zephonic (07/06/17 11:58 PM)
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#2864920 - 07/06/17 11:41 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: zephonic]
Theo Verelst Online   confused
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From the YT I feel justified in feeling fine never to own this instrument.

T

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#2864925 - 07/06/17 11:58 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: zephonic]
Ashville.Guru Offline
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Kraft Music has the GrandStage on pre-order:

88: $2,499.99
73: $2,299.99

Two more videos:





- Guru
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#2864926 - 07/07/17 12:02 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Theo Verelst]
ApprenticeGary Offline
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I played a kronos 2 88 and felt the action was very good. Far superior than sv1-88 which I owned. Very interested in the grandstage and curious if it has a fan inside like the kronos. Few seems to care about the fan noise, but it's really a dealbreaker for me.
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#2864927 - 07/07/17 12:04 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ApprenticeGary]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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First mod most players will make: put some tape over that obnoxious glowing logo! Sheesh, what were they thinking?

Still, my interest is piqued. For years I was hoping for an SV-2, and this certainly seems to be it.

Edit: Just saw the in video that you can turn off the glowing logo. Whew!
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#2864929 - 07/07/17 12:46 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
FunkKeyStuff Offline
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Next question: instead of splitting the board, can you MIDI in an external keyboard and play a second sound from it, i.e. Wurli locally and Clav from the external board? If so, and if it's as good as it seems like it may be, there's a good chance one of these and the forthcoming Legend Solo could keep me happy for a long time.
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#2864930 - 07/07/17 12:59 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
marczellm Offline
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I was hoping for at least 3 zones and (at least limited) sound editing, like in the Roland RD series or Nord Stage. I'd want to customize drawbar settings for example.
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#2864935 - 07/07/17 01:29 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: marczellm]
Dockeys Offline
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Doesn't appear to have changed much from the prototype model earlier this year. Not a huge fan of the brushed finished but I like the logo. Overall I think it looks really nice. It seems to be leaning more towards a beefier SV1 than the Kronos. Granted elements of the Kronos have been borrowed. That stand looks pretty solid, though the extendable arms on either side look weird pointing up when you're in the seated position and playing. Still it looks like it's built to be expanded if you wanted to have another keys or two own top or a laptop? I wonder can you programme any of the presets outside of just adding effects like reverb/chorus etc?

I'm in the market for something new soon. I may be swayed by the 73 note especially for the weight factor. Then again I cold get the full 88 note CP4 for similar weight. Will hopefully get to demo these next to each other soon. Thanks for the update.
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#2864936 - 07/07/17 01:30 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Dockeys]
Dockeys Offline
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and ElmerJFudd they mention that the stand comes with the keyboard along with a newly designed sustain pedal, not only in the video but it's also mentioned in the specs page. Gotta hold them to that!
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#2864938 - 07/07/17 01:53 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Dockeys]
Nadroj Offline
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Single split and layer capability...Seems to be targeting the Electro 5. Looking forward to trying one out.
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#2864940 - 07/07/17 02:23 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Nadroj]
The Piano Man Offline
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Two zones and only basic splitting/layering. This rules it out for me. Even the £600 Casio PX360 allows four zones

Is this an expensive feature? So few boards seem to have it unless you are paying significant money
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#2864960 - 07/07/17 05:26 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ApprenticeGary]
GregC Offline
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Originally Posted By: ApprenticeGary
I Few seems to care about the fan noise, but it's really a dealbreaker for me.


I like having noise from fans. I say bring on the fan noise. It shows they are interested wink

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#2864962 - 07/07/17 05:39 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: GregC]
George88 Offline
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While I have eagerly been awaiting this arrival, I am disappointed at the lack of available distortion effects.
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#2864969 - 07/07/17 05:57 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: George88]
GregC Offline
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Originally Posted By: George88
While I have eagerly been awaiting this arrival, I am disappointed at the lack of available distortion effects.


I tend to agree, from a Kronos perspective. I feel the Fx are somewhat limited.

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#2864987 - 07/07/17 06:51 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: FunkKeyStuff]
Beethree Offline
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I like it. I am very happy with my Forte, but if I was in the market this would jump right up there.

The stand is a very cool feature!!!
Got rid of the annoying and too tall curved top from the SV-1
Look forward to trying the mono pianos.
Since it has the CX-3 engine, I am guessing you can edit the drawbar settings. Maybe in real time with a drawbar module? I did not watch every second of all 3 videos.
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#2865008 - 07/07/17 07:38 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
88: $2,499.99
73: $2,299.99

A bit better than I'd predicted in the original thread on this, where I said "I would not be surprised to see it priced more like, say,$2400- $2500 for the 73 and a couple of hundred more for the 88"

Originally Posted By: Dockeys
Overall I think it looks really nice. It seems to be leaning more towards a beefier SV1 than the Kronos. Granted elements of the Kronos have been borrowed.

Yeah, seems like an SV1 aesthetics/interface applied to basically Kronos-derived sound engines. I could see this being a very desirable package, despite the loss of some things that made the SV1 special in its own way.

Originally Posted By: The Piano Man
Two zones and only basic splitting/layering. This rules it out for me. Even the £600 Casio PX360 allows four zones

Is this an expensive feature? So few boards seem to have it unless you are paying significant money

It's not just about cost, it's about interface/ergonomics and target audience. Some boards are about being able to do zillions of things, others do fewer things but aim to do those things with greater simplicity. Like the difference between a Kronos and a Nord Stage. So, keeping in mind that Korg already makes a keyboard that has almost all the same sonic capabilities as the Grandstage but is also much more flexible (Kronos), the idea here would seem to be to create a board that does the key bread-and-butter stuff in a simpler, more direct approach. They still have the Kronos for people who need more flexibility. At least it's a big step up from the SV1 in terms of split/layer. And you know, as much as everyone was looking forward to getting splits and layers on the Nord Electro, you also see people say they miss some of the old simplicity!

Originally Posted By: Beethree
Since it has the CX-3 engine, I am guessing you can edit the drawbar settings. Maybe in real time with a drawbar module? I did not watch every second of all 3 videos.

I haven't seen it all either. Ocean Beach's drawbars supported Kronos, so I would not be surprised if it worked with this. It likely may includes Kronos' ability to directly support USB controllers too, but a complication may remain in that Kronos CX3 drawbars respond to sysex rather than MIDI CC.
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#2865011 - 07/07/17 07:45 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Outkaster Offline
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Nice worth checking out.
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#2865035 - 07/07/17 08:34 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Outkaster]
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I certainly see this as an upgrade to the SV-1. Certainly more functionality/capability/content but still retains the simplicity. The variety of AP's is nice as well.

Not a fan of the stand. I play sitting down and the extended vertical chrome risers look kind of silly to me. Leave the stand out of the box and take $200 off the price.

Doesn't matter anyway. I'm not buying one. But it's a nice upgrade for the Korg fans.
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#2865037 - 07/07/17 08:36 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Rusty Mike]
stoken6 Offline
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Looks very interesting!! I'm not really in the market, but good on Korg for bringing competition to Nord and the like.

Cheers Mike
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#2865047 - 07/07/17 08:50 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Rusty Mike]
EscapeRocks Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Rusty Mike


Not a fan of the stand. I play sitting down and the extended vertical chrome risers look kind of silly to me. Leave the stand out of the box and take $200 off the price.


I totally concur. That stand does not look very gig friendly in terms of setup.

As for the rest, very cool board.
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#2865051 - 07/07/17 09:08 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: EscapeRocks]
burningbusch Offline
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Owner's Manual, Sound List and MIDI Guide available here: http://www.korg.com/us/support/download/product/0/751/

Editing of program looks to be very basic with a max of four parameters. The 64 Favorites can be saved/loaded from USB Flash.

Busch.


Edited by burningbusch (07/07/17 10:40 AM)
Edit Reason: corrections

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#2865056 - 07/07/17 09:23 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
_Maximus_ Offline
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I like it, the more crowded the stage piano scene gets the better for us, defently a different interpretation of a stage piano than the other competitors, the package including the stand and pedal is a nice touching hope they sell an extra tier for a top board, the glowing logo defently is a sign of the times, you can probably turn it off via software, all and it seems like a well sorted package. Is the ridged texture brushed metal or wood veneer, I dig it

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#2865147 - 07/07/17 12:08 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: _Maximus_]
ProfD Offline
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D8mn. I hope the Grandstage does not have the FTEC (finger-to-ear connection) of the SV-1. grin

If the Grandstage has the best of the SV-1 and Kronos, I might feel a fire sale brewing. laugh cool
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#2865156 - 07/07/17 12:28 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ProfD]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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It's priced hot for a two split/layer stage piano, but it's priced right for a Kronos LE. I'm studying the manual now to see how editable and feature-full the Grandstage really is.

I'm confounded by this decision to bundle the stand. Unless they think if they get this stand into people's hands they'll want to fill it with more Korg synths... maybe this orange VOX organ is coming which is usually also hanging on this stand at the trade shows?
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#2865169 - 07/07/17 12:51 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
bob_sd Offline
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Still looks like a prototype to me - not very pretty. Yeah, that part is important to me - I'm still in love with the curves on the SV1! They really took a step backward re effects. No independent distortion? No independent chorus?

But there is plenty to like- looking through the patch list available online, korg has thoughtfully incorporated access to certain modulators (like lfos) and effects (like chorus) that are not accessible from the front panel - and attached them to control surfaces on a per patch basis. (Control surfaces including pitch/mod wheels, pedals, two switches) doesnt look like any of these are assignable but rather hard wired (maybe an editor in the future?) This is definitely a "player's" instrument/rompler.

I also noticed that patches that incorporate delay utilize the mod wheel to set the depth, whereas the pot on front panel determines speed. Lots of thought put into this and it will satisfy a bunch of users. Others have compared it to the electro series, however I personally think this is "almost" in a separate category given it has pitch/mod wheels. Awesome!

Re drawbars- we can hold out hope that a third party solution would provide this, but I don't see it at least with the current firmware.

Just wish it looked better. Too many corners, not enough curves. And the stand? I sure hope the keyboard will be available without it. The stand looks like a tricked out medical walker.

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#2865184 - 07/07/17 01:45 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: bob_sd]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Sweetwater has a run through as well with Erskine Hawkins.

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#2865188 - 07/07/17 01:49 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: bob_sd]
CEB Online   content
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This one doesn't appeal to me at all.... I have no idea why. There is no little voice saying 'Buy me'. I hear that voice when I see the RD-2000 and I really like the MP-7. I like the CP-4 better than this. Maybe because it seems like a weak ass Kronos and not a stage piano with the synth and organ engines onboard. I like the SV-1 a lot.


Edited by CEB (07/07/17 01:49 PM)
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#2865190 - 07/07/17 01:50 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: CEB]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Originally Posted By: CEB
This one doesn't appeal to me at all.... I have no idea why. There is no little voice saying Buy me. I hear that voice when I see the RD-2000 and I really like the MP-7. I like the CP-4 better than this. Maybe because it seems like a weak ass Kronos and not a stage piano. I like the SV-1 a lot.


I'm getting that vibe too. I know it's early and I haven't sat at it, but listening to all demos so far... the acoustic piano sounds are meh for a piano centric instrument like this. The electrics sound better, just like the SV-1. The synths sound good. But maybe that's KORG.

These AP samples sound really short with a fast unrealistic decay.
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#2865191 - 07/07/17 01:51 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
drawback Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted By: CEB
This one doesn't appeal to me at all.... I have no idea why. There is no little voice saying Buy me. I hear that voice when I see the RD-2000 and I really like the MP-7. I like the CP-4 better than this. Maybe because it seems like a weak ass Kronos and not a stage piano. I like the SV-1 a lot.


I'm getting that vibe too. I know it's early and I haven't sat at it, but listening to all demos so far... the acoustic piano sounds are meh for a piano centric instrument like this. The electrics sound better, just like the SV-1. The synths sound good. But maybe that's KORG.

These samples sound really short with a fast unrealistic decay.

I've been reading through this thread, caught all the demos, checked out the prices & the manuals (briefly) and am not getting what makes this stage piano any more interesting than Yamaha's MX88 at half the price?

Agree with the AP assessment – still sounding "Korgy" to me too.


Edited by drawback (07/07/17 02:01 PM)

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#2865192 - 07/07/17 02:03 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Sweetwater has a run through as well with Erskine Hawkins.



Unfortunately the demo is mono. Maybe they'll repost it.

Busch.

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#2865193 - 07/07/17 02:06 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: drawback]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: drawback
what makes this stage piano any more interesting than Yamaha's MX88 at half the price?


The MX88 is a totally different animal. It's an entry-level "Motif-type" keyboard with different features and sounds, and I would assume a lesser build quality than the Grandstage.
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#2865194 - 07/07/17 02:07 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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This is what they say the SGX-2 inside is delivering,

"These SGX-2 sound engines contain high-capacity
* unlooped stereo samples for every key
* 12 levels of velocity switching to perfectly convey the detailed and powerful expressiveness of an acoustic piano, extending to
* damper resonance that reproduces the spaciousness felt when the pedal is pressed, and even
* mechanical noise

I'll shut up on the AP sounds until I get on one, but... I'm hoping to hear something I'm not right now.
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#2865199 - 07/07/17 02:14 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd


These AP samples sound really short with a fast unrealistic decay.


Not hearing that with the new pianos myself.

https://soundcloud.com/korg/dimensions?in=korg/sets/grandstage-sgx-2

Busch.

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#2865202 - 07/07/17 02:24 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: drawback]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: drawback
not getting what makes this stage piano any more interesting than Yamaha's MX88 at half the price?

MX88 uses a sample playback engine with the equivalent of 166 mb of wave data.

Grandstage has the equivalent of 32 gb of wave data for its sample playback (largely for pianos), plus additional engines that use modeling rather than sample playback... i.e. it includes a clonewheel engine and a VA synth engine, etc. Also, I think most would consider RH3 to be a step-up in action from GHS. If it's like the Kronos, the seamless sound transition will work between any sounds or combinations of sounds, whereas MX only supports that between (user definable) sets of 16 sounds. Ergonomically, it also gives you a bit more of a "hands on " interface. More professional back panel... built-in power supply and XLR outs.
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#2865208 - 07/07/17 02:53 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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Thanks guys. Different animal indeed.

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#2865212 - 07/07/17 03:04 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: CEB]
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Originally Posted By: CEB
This one doesn't appeal to me at all.... I have no idea why. There is no little voice saying 'Buy me'. I hear that voice when I see the RD-2000 and I really like the MP-7. I like the CP-4 better than this. Maybe because it seems like a weak ass Kronos and not a stage piano with the synth and organ engines onboard. I like the SV-1 a lot.


Coming from the Kronos at only ~$1000 more, it's hard for me too excited either. I've owned many slab pianos and inevitably found them too restrictive due to their lack of sounds, programming, customization. Save a few sounds I can connect with, in the end I'm frustrated. Nice actions and all.

With the GS, from what I can see there are four Vox and two Compact presets which allow a single editable parameter. Seems like a huge waste of potential. Hope the new organs and APs make to the Kronos in some fashion.

Busch.

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#2865219 - 07/07/17 03:27 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Coming from the Kronos at only ~$1000 more, it's hard for me too excited either.

I don't think it will have tons of appeal to lots of Kronos fans. But to get a lot of the "bread and butter" parts of the Kronos, not just for $1100-$1200 less, but with a friendlier interface*, more compact chassis and 9 lbs less travel weight gives you something with an appeal to a different player, I think.

(* I know, Set List mode is friendly. But the rest of the board's operation, not so much.)
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#2865221 - 07/07/17 03:32 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Coming from the Kronos at only ~$1000 more, it's hard for me too excited either.

I don't think it will have tons of appeal to lots of Kronos fans. But to get a lot of the "bread and butter" parts of the Kronos, not just for $1100-$1200 less, but with a friendlier interface*, more compact chassis and 9 lbs less travel weight gives you something with an appeal to a different player, I think.

(* I know, Set List mode is friendly. But the rest of the board's operation, not so much.)


Agree. As a Kronos owner, this isn't on my radar at all. But if I had something different as my top tier, then it would be appealing as a bottom tier keyboard. And there is enough sound variety to appeal to folks who only want to carry one keyboard.
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#2865226 - 07/07/17 03:56 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Sam Mullins]
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I think the VOX Continental is coming, it has a very similar UI and aesthetic to the Grandstage and that's where the fully editable organ models will be.

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#2865231 - 07/07/17 04:13 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
I think the VOX Continental is coming

I like that method of adjusting drawbars... the immediacy of hard controls (compared to Nord's buttons), but also the ability for them to instantly reflect recalled settings (or a different manual). That or something like Dexibel's motorized faders is really useful, I think.

One more thing about the GS vs Kronos is that I think the GS has a lot more immediate appeal on the showroom floor... you can probably walk over to it and right away feel like you basically know how to use it, unlike Kronos.
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#2865239 - 07/07/17 04:52 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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I imagine perfecting that drawbar tech might be what's holding up the VOX, right? I can't wait to see what it feels like. It's got to be quicker and a more familiar motion than the Nord +/- buttons.
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#2865277 - 07/07/17 07:16 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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My prediction: Eventually, as more and more of our brethren start actually playing this thing on stage, the Dynamics knob is going to be recognized as the greatest innovation in DPs in recent years. Way ahead of stuff like escapement, pedal noise, triple sensors, even.

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#2865288 - 07/07/17 09:36 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
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#2865289 - 07/07/17 09:37 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
My prediction: Eventually, as more and more of our brethren start actually playing this thing on stage, the Dynamics knob is going to be recognized as the greatest innovation in DPs in recent years. Way ahead of stuff like escapement, pedal noise, triple sensors, even.

- Guru


You might be right. Simple single knob control of velocity curve could very well make it easy to dial in the way you want the action to interact with the current sound - and hopefully save-able with the preset.

emusician copy suggests the GS A-frame stand might be "limited" as in for early adopters or until supply runs out?

"ships this summer with an eye-catching limited A-frame keyboard stand, a DS1H damper pedal, and a music stand in 88- and 73-note configurations for $2,499 and $2,299 respectively. It will debut at Summer NAMM ’17 at the Korg USA booth #953."
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#2865295 - 07/07/17 10:35 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Simple single knob control of velocity curve could very well make it easy to dial in the way you want the action to interact with the current sound

As I understand it, the Dynamics knob in the GS has nothing to do with velocity curve. Velocity curve is part of the system settings (p. 16 of the manual).

Dynamics affects only the volume difference between the softest and loudest notes. Velocity curves affect both volume and timbre.

Here's why the distinction matters: when your band mix is loud, the softest notes will get drowned out, forcing you to bang on the keys. You can 'fix' the problem with velocity curve, but at the cost of velocity sensitivity. Now you don't have to bang on the keys, but there's no difference between playing soft and playing loud, it sounds the same - both volume and timbre.

And what fun is an AP that isn't velocity sensitive?

Enter the dynamic knob. When you lower dynamics, the timbre is unaffected. Which means the softest notes are still heard above the band mix - but with a mellow timbre. And the timbre brightens up as you dig in, even if the volume doesn't change that much.

Bottomline, you get to play expressively on AP sounds even in a loud band mix.

Velocity curve adjustment has been there for ages now. Dynamics adjustment is a new thing - for hardware boards. It's buried as a parameter in the Kronos (and Casio PX-5S also, I believe). But this begs to be tweaked realtime, and the GrandStage is the first board to provide a handy knob for it.

- Guru
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#2865307 - 07/08/17 02:55 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
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As you describe it, it sounds basically like compression...
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#2865319 - 07/08/17 04:22 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: zephonic]
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
As you describe it, it sounds basically like compression...


Yup
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#2865321 - 07/08/17 04:42 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
As I understand it, the Dynamics knob in the GS has nothing to do with velocity curve. Velocity curve is part of the system settings (p. 16 of the manual). Dynamics affects only the volume difference between the softest and loudest notes. Velocity curves affect both volume and timbre.

I don't think so. From the manual (p. 11), I see it differently. i.e. implying the knob affects tone as well as volume, it says "adjusts how the volume and tone will be changed in response to how hard the keys are played (velocity)" though I suppose one could interpret a tone NOT changing as being an adjustment to how tone will be changed. But then it also says "The dynamics will have no effect on programs that do not change in volume or tone with velocity, such as organ sounds or some synth sounds." If it weren't altering tone, it wouldn't matter whether or not it was being applied to a sound where the tone changed with velocity. (As for it having anything to do with the velocity curve, it also says "the effect will be applied according to the velocity curve that is set" though I think that's basically just saying that it doesn't over-ride that setting, but works in conjunction with it.)

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Simple single knob control of velocity curve could very well make it easy to dial in the way you want the action to interact with the current sound - and hopefully save-able with the preset.

Apparently not savable. From the same page, "Dynamics settings cannot be saved to the favorites. Dynamics will always be off when turning on the Grandstage. Turning DYNAMICS on will cause the effect to be applied, according to the position of the knob." It also applies equally to the two sounds of a split/layer.

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
emusician copy suggests the GS A-frame stand might be "limited" as in for early adopters or until supply runs out?

"ships this summer with an eye-catching limited A-frame keyboard stand,

Nah... I think they're just saying that shipments start this summer, not that the stand only comes with it this summer, if that's what you meant. All indications are that the stand will come standard, and is not intended as a launch promotion. (Of course, that doesn't mean they might not choose to offer it without the stand at some point...)
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#2865325 - 07/08/17 05:02 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: zephonic]
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
As you describe it, it sounds basically like compression...

Exactly...! Except that compression isn't designed for real-time tweaking. Compression is applied post-facto, and you have five parameters that have to be adjusted very carefully to avoid artefacts - for each individual sample. Too messy and complicated for stage use.

Dynamics applies to the sound engine itself. Single parameter, perfectly clean, no artefacts. Ideal for on-stage tweaking.

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#2865326 - 07/08/17 05:18 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I don't think so. From the manual (p. 11), I see it differently. i.e. implying the knob affects tone as well as volume, it says "adjusts how the volume and tone will be changed in response to how hard the keys are played (velocity)"

Yes, I saw that. I'm pretty sure the manual is worded poorly, because I've actually tested it out on a Kronos. There's a parameter (I think it's called Velocity Bias or Intensity). Setting this to minimum is very instructive - hitting the keys harder changes only the timbre, but not the volume...! Pretty sure this is what the GrandStage knob controls.

And this is exactly how the Dynamic Range parameter in Pianoteq works. I've been using this live, mapped to a hardware knob for years now. The difference it makes, is something to be experienced.

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#2865331 - 07/08/17 05:52 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
Originally Posted By: zephonic
As you describe it, it sounds basically like compression...

Exactly...! Except that compression isn't designed for real-time tweaking. Compression is applied post-facto, and you have five parameters that have to be adjusted very carefully

Well, there have been some single-knob implementations of compression (with varying levels of success).

Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I don't think so. From the manual (p. 11), I see it differently. i.e. implying the knob affects tone as well as volume, it says "adjusts how the volume and tone will be changed in response to how hard the keys are played (velocity)"

Yes, I saw that. I'm pretty sure the manual is worded poorly, because I've actually tested it out on a Kronos. There's a parameter (I think it's called Velocity Bias or Intensity). Setting this to minimum is very instructive - hitting the keys harder changes only the timbre, but not the volume...! Pretty sure this is what the GrandStage knob controls.

And this is exactly how the Dynamic Range parameter in Pianoteq works. I've been using this live, mapped to a hardware knob for years now. The difference it makes, is something to be experienced.

Sounds cool. I'll need to experiment with that in the Kronos some time.

I suppose it's also possible that the knob on the Grandstage is some hybrid of the two ideas... that it does affect both volume and timbre, but not equally.
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#2865342 - 07/08/17 06:43 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I suppose it's also possible that the knob on the Grandstage is some hybrid of the two ideas... that it does affect both volume and timbre, but not equally.

Possible of course, but I sure hope not - that would be incredibly silly of Korg. Affecting timbre means killing expression - for no advantage whatsoever.

Besides, they didn't need to reinvent the wheel. They already have a parameter in the SGX engine, all they needed to do was map it to a knob to get it right.

I'd also recommend playing around with a Pianoteq demo - it's a small download. There's a built-in compressor, buried in the effects section. And yet, there's a dedicated Dynamics parameter prominently next to the volume control. Korg's engineers seem to have converged on the same idea.

- Guru
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#2865351 - 07/08/17 07:18 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
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Heh, I'm still not clear on wether this is a one knob compressor (like on Yamaha live mixer's channel strips) or a single knob velocity curve adjuster. Does the GS also have a way to go in and select velocity (hard, normal, soft) like most every other stage piano? If not, is this intended to replace that? Does the GS offer compression in the fx section? Can it be edited or is it on or off?

I need to look at the manual deeper.
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#2865357 - 07/08/17 08:03 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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With the SGX on the Kronos you have two independent parameters related to velocity response:

VELOCITY BIAS (timbre): negative values compress the range giving you a darker tone while positive values expand the range, i.e. brighter.

VELOCITY INTENSITY (volume): negative values compress the dynamic range while positive values expand it. For example, a value of -100 will cause all notes to have the same volume regardless of how hard the keys are depressed.

In addition, the instrument has an overall velocity response parameter found in GLOBAL. The GS seems to be identical in this regard.

The DYNAMICS knob on the GS does not appear to be a standard compressor as the documentation says it relates to the velocity response curves set in GLOBAL. Also, it says it does not affect organ/synth tones which are not velocity sensitive. A compressor would of course affect all tones.

It sounds to me like some variation of the two parameters found in the SGX engine on the Kronos.

Busch.

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#2865362 - 07/08/17 08:14 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru

Possible of course, but I sure hope not - that would be incredibly silly of Korg. Affecting timbre means killing expression - for no advantage whatsoever.



VELOCITY BIAS does affect timbre but it does not kill expression. In fact it might increase expression for some players. If you have a particularly heavy touch or your trying to play expressive piano parts on a light action keyboard, it is very easy to bang into the upper, bright sample layers (MIDI notes 100+). In this sense your range is limited. By setting a negative value, you are simply starting with a bit of a handicap, so while you can still hit those highest velocities/timbres it takes more effort and might be more expressive, again for certain players/situations.

I always set my SGX pianos to a negative value BIAS (timbre) while setting the INTENSITY (volume) to a positive value. This suits my playing style.

Busch.

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#2865367 - 07/08/17 08:40 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Does the GS also have a way to go in and select velocity (hard, normal, soft) like most every other stage piano?

Yes, there are 9 selectable velocity curves.

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Does the GS offer compression in the fx section?

Yes and no. Except for reverb/delay, it looks like there are no user-selectable effects on a given patch. Rather, effects have been pre-assigned to certain patches. So in this case, you can call up an Italian or German grand with compression, but there's no way to put compression on the Japanese, Austrian, or Berlin models, because patches with compression on those piano sounds don't exist. You can select a Wurli with compression, but not a Rhodes. You can have compression on your clav AD sound, but not AC, BC, or BD. Same idea with phaser, chorus, etc.... you get them by calling up sounds that have those effects pre-assigned, but as far as I can tell, you can not freely assign those effects to whatever sound you want.

And this one was a bit of a shocker... despite the CX3 engine, there appears to be no way to adjust the drawbar settings. No menu option, no CC control, and not even any sysex control. (So much for the Ocean Beach drawbars working.) In fact, there's no sysex for anything. So you're not going to see any deep editors, either. As the manual says, "the Grandstage does not support either transmitting or receiving system exclusive messages." (Well, except for five "universal" system exclusive messages... which always sounded like an oxymoron to me...) One possible saving grace here is that each program has 4 pre-selected editable parameters, customized to that particular program. It's possible that some of the organ patches have drawbar levels assigned to those parameters.
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#2865370 - 07/08/17 08:55 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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Definitely choices made here to not offer a Kronos at $2299.99 and also to have cross over, but not too much with the expected VOX which will obviously be much more capable in the CX3 area but likely watered down in the SGX area.
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#2865374 - 07/08/17 09:17 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: drawback]
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Originally Posted By: drawback
Thanks guys. Different animal indeed.

One thing the MX88 has over the GS is that the sounds are full editable (via computer). GS is more a preset jockey's machine... though in reality, 99% of the MX owners probably use it the same way. ;-)
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#2865448 - 07/08/17 01:51 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
VELOCITY BIAS does affect timbre but it does not kill expression.

In fact it might increase expression for some players. If you have a particularly heavy touch or your trying to play expressive piano parts on a light action keyboard, it is very easy to bang into the upper, bright sample layers (MIDI notes 100+). In this sense your range is limited. By setting a negative value, you are simply starting with a bit of a handicap, so while you can still hit those highest velocities/timbres it takes more effort and might be more expressive, again for certain players/situations.


We seem to be talking about different applications and contexts. You're referring to adapting to a keyboard with a lighter touch. I'm talking about the band mix drowning out the softer notes. Different problems, different remedial measures.

From the descriptions and videos, it looks like the Dynamics knob applies to the second scenario:

"Turning the dynamics knob toward the left provides a softer sound with a wider dynamic range in response to your keystrokes. This allows more sensitive expression since the sound responds directly to changes in your playing strength; ideal for piano solos or when playing accompaniment. Conversely, turning the dynamics knob toward the right provides louder sound relative to your playing strength, creating flatter dynamics. This is ideal when you want to play with a consistent touch so that your sound will stand out in the band or ensemble."

I'd say the Dynamics knob simply controls the Intensity parameter, not Bias. Ergo, timbre should be unaffected.

- Guru

P.S. The Bias parameter is perhaps another underrated innovation in the Kronos. I'm not aware of any equivalent in software. Still, it solves a very different problem from the Dynamics knob.
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#2865508 - 07/08/17 06:16 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
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Knob to left:

Softer sound = overall decrease of piano volume sent to main outs. Softs, mediums, and louds are all decreased the same %, the equivalent of turning your master volume down.
Wider dynamic range = what does this imply? higher resolution in the velocity curve? Or that the resulting dB can go down to lower than when you have the knob at center?

Knob to Right:

"louder sound relative to your playing strength"
Does this mean lower values in the velocity curve have been limited at the bottom? Like it's not possible to play 0-50... Anything below 50 is a 51 and its there to 127 depending on the shape of curve?

The description isn't great. Trying to keep what it does a secret sauce?
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#2865532 - 07/08/17 08:53 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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I was looking forward to this, but then a new gig that required a few samples and loops pushed me towards a Kronos 73. I also have an SV-1. With that in mind:

The SV-1 has better EPs, the best available in hardware. They're an absolute joy to play. And you have the equivalent of a row of quality fx pedals with knobs for everything. The Kronos EPs are good, but they don't quite put that smile on my face. The Grandstage has the Kronos EP engine.

I have tweaked and now really like the new Kronos acoustic piano sample, way better than those in the SV-1, and I've found that I enjoy the RH3 action on the Kronos significantly more than that on the SV-1. I don't just mean the better velocity curves matching the acoustic piano samples, I mean the physicality of it. Presumably due to the aftertouch on the Kronos providing a slightly softer landing. The Grandstage has no aftertouch and will play like the SV-1, perhaps with better velocity mapping to the new acoustic piano samples.

The lack of tweaking for the CX-3 makes the organ as useful (or useless) as those on the SV-1.

The velocity/compression knob you guys are discussing appears to be something like that on Roland's VR-09, which seems to be a sort of combination compression/eq knob designed to make managing the sound in different acoustic environments more doable on the fly. I think it's great that companies like Korg and Roland are thinking about these sorts of gig-friendly extras.

The stand, on the other hand, is way oversized. 73/76 note boards are bought for small cars and smaller stage footprints. Not a fan. The SV-1 stand is much better.

With the caveat that I haven't played one, but am familiar with the SV-1 and the Kronos, from which come all the elements of the Grandstage (with the exception of the new combo organ engines), while I will look to try one in the store when it starts shipping, I'm glad I went for the Kronos 73.
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#2865656 - 07/09/17 03:00 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: niacin]
analogman1 Offline
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Still loving my SV1!
I honestly can't see the reason to keep upgrading. (Also can't afford it!)
If I invest in anything else, it will probably be either a real piano or console organ.
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#2865688 - 07/09/17 05:20 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: analogman1]
Randelph Offline
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Registered: 06/30/09
Posts: 368
Loc: San Francisco, CA
60 gigs of memory total? Pretty sweet. I suppose that's where Korg will make more money, as part of their expansion packs.

Seems incredibly limited that you can only do split and layer with one part of that being from the ensemble sounds.

Overly limited in terms of editing capability, surely they must have a iPad or computer editor in the works. 60 gigs of memory and such a small screen, it'd be ludicrous otherwise. Guess I'm used to my Nord Stage- of course it's practically half the price, but still, I guess I'm unreasonably expecting more hands on controls. With an editor that'd make all the difference with this board, you'd prepare in advance and load up that favorites bank.

Reminds me a bit of the Korg SP 280, the user interface is overly simplified. For all of its limitations, I found it a fun board to play. But yeah, it does seem like the SV-1 in its simplicity.

A shame they couldn't come in under 35-40 pounds, but I'm sure they tried, manufacturers have got to know by now how many buying decisions this influences.

Can't say this gives me GAS. As the NS3 becomes available, you could probably get a used NS2 88, possibly even the EX, for around the same price, which weighs a little less, is 6 part multi-timbral, and has lots of real time controllers. And, I already know I like the sounds on the Stage.

I suppose it was only a matter of time that we'd get brightly illuminated signage on boards meant for the stage. I suppose for many of us it seems like a point of ridicule, but they did make it something you could turn off, dim or display in different colors, and hey, whatever it takes to get the keyboardist noticed!

Randy
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#2865693 - 07/09/17 05:40 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Randelph]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Yamaha had the white back light though the chrome Yamaha symbol on the CP1. Very understated.
Korg with the multi colors through the KORG logo... well, that surely says something about aesthetic differences between these companies.
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#2865695 - 07/09/17 05:50 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Mitch Towne Offline
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Registered: 01/26/07
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I couldnt disagree more with the idea that the SV-1 has better EPs than the Kronos. The SV-1 Rhodes sample sounds like it changes half way up the keyboard. I could never connect with it. The Kronos has the best workstation Rhodes in the business, I think. The "Herbie's Butterfly" patch alone blows away anything the SV1 can do.

I don't see, however, where the GS has the editing ability that the Kronos does. Am I missing something?

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#2865697 - 07/09/17 06:05 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Mitch Towne]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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No I don't think you're missing anything. The GS has SV-1 simplicity with the Kronos engines - you get the sounds with very limited editing beyond EQ and some FX parameters. That's why it's a grand less. Giggers no muss no fuss setup and play. If one needs the rest, you get the Kronos.
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#2865698 - 07/09/17 06:08 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Randelph]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Randelph
60 gigs of memory total? Pretty sweet.
specs say 32. Still, nothing to sneeze at.

http://www.korg.com/us/products/synthesizers/grandstage/specifications.php

Originally Posted By: Randelph
Overly limited in terms of editing capability, surely they must have a iPad or computer editor in the works.

I think they intend this to be for the preset jockeys, and they would suggest the Kronos for those who want to dig in. (Also, they specifically say it has no system exclusive implementation, I don't know that that makes it impossible to create an editor, but it at least means it's impossible for anyone other than Korg.)

Originally Posted By: Randelph
gigs of memory and such a small screen, it'd be ludicrous otherwise.

Not really. It has the 500 sounds it has (and 64 favorite locations). The fact that some of the sounds use gobs of wave sample data (i.e. that it has multi-gigabyte pianos) doesn't make an editor more or less essential, there's not a correlation between size of the samples and need for an editor.

Originally Posted By: Randelph
I guess I'm unreasonably expecting more hands on controls. With an editor that'd make all the difference with this board, you'd prepare in advance and load up that favorites bank.

Yeah, that's the Kronos approach. More uninviting then the GS in terms of hands-on control, but you prep in advance and load up your Set List slots.

Originally Posted By: Randelph
But yeah, it does seem like the SV-1 in its simplicity.

I think that's the point of it. Though the SV1 does have an editor! Albeit not a particularly extensive one. But I think they are going for a board with the SV1's successful simplicity, addressing the SV1's most notable shortcomings. People didn't really complain that the SV1 didn't allow you to sufficiently edit the sounds, again we're talking about something more designed for preset jockeys. What people did complain about was having only 8 Favorite locations, not being able to split/layer, having an awkward shape to carry or stack, having lackluster acoustic piano sounds, no mod/pitch wheels... all addressed with the GS. Smooth sound transition is a nice addition, too. (Unfortunately, there is also some tradeoff, as the effects have been scaled back.)

Originally Posted By: Randelph
A shame they couldn't come in under 35-40 pounds
...
Can't say this gives me GAS.

I'm with you on those. But I think the board will have a lot of appeal to a lot of people.
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#2865699 - 07/09/17 06:27 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Yamaha had the white back light though the chrome Yamaha symbol on the CP1. Very understated.
Korg with the multi colors through the KORG logo... well, that surely says something about aesthetic differences between these companies.


All the world's a stage.



Busch.

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#2865700 - 07/09/17 06:42 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
All the world's a stage.

I read that Jobs had wanted the Apple 180 degrees flipped from that, so it would be facing the "right" way when a user went over to it and opened it up, and it took a lot of persuasion from other design folk to convince him that it was more important that it look right when people saw it from the "outside."
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#2865839 - 07/10/17 09:52 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: The Piano Man]
Synthaholic Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Piano Man
Two zones and only basic splitting/layering. This rules it out for me. Even the £600 Casio PX360 allows four zones

Is this an expensive feature? So few boards seem to have it unless you are paying significant money


It's another "what were they thinking?" moment. It can't be expensive - the Alesis Quadrasynth/QS Series lets you Split/Layer all 16 channels.
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#2865852 - 07/10/17 10:04 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Synthaholic]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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In Korg's mind they just offered the Oasys/Kronos engines at a grand below a Kronos. It has to cost more than the SV-1 @ $1.5-$1.6k. And they think it's more in league with the RD-2000 and CP4. And in some ways they're right, and in others very wrong. But, that's what they did. Personally I think they should have offered the stand separate and the boards @ $1.9-$2.0k. But, that may be coming yet.
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#2865858 - 07/10/17 10:19 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Personally I think they should have offered the stand separate and the boards @ $1.9-$2.0k. But, that may be coming yet.


Give it time. There will be a price drop eventually. I am hoping for different color light inserts for the various holidays though. laugh
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#2865919 - 07/10/17 01:03 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Synthaholic]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
It's another "what were they thinking?" moment. It can't be expensive - the Alesis Quadrasynth/QS Series lets you Split/Layer all 16 channels.

It's not always a cost thing. If you're trying to design a board for simple operation with immediate control and minimal menu diving, it may not be sensible to provide 16-zone splits/layers. (And they do have boards that provide that feature for those who need it... not just the more expensive Kronos, but also the less expensive Krome/Kross).

The other thing about "it can't be expensive, because this cheaper board does it" is that you also need to keep in mind the other things the board does that the cheaper board does not do. As I've said before, there are lots of features you can find in thousand dollar boards, but if you put them all into the same board, you don't have a thousand dollar board anymore
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#2866386 - 07/12/17 11:54 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: zephonic]
Macsaint777 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/14
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Just preordered a Grandstage after sending back an RD-2000 for action issues, getting a replacement, and replacing that with a Nord Piano 3, which I just got replaced...So, TWO Roland RD-2000s, and now TWO Nord Piano 3s... My Triton Studio treated me well for 16 years...Grandstage here I come!

Cheers!

Ben


Edited by Macsaint777 (07/13/17 07:34 AM)
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#2866396 - 07/12/17 12:25 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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So I hear, saint. Sheesh, that's insane. I think you may have broken a record. You sure your UPS guy isn't to blame? wink

What did you think of the NP3 action when you played it? Or were they DOA?

Here's hoping your Grandstage arrived safely! Totally possible it might need a firmware update though, as I'm sure the RD-2000 needs as well.
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#2866399 - 07/12/17 12:31 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
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Ben, I just saw your post and watched your video on the Nord forum. facepalm mad

Man, I feel bad for you having to go all through all of this. What a nightmare !! shocked

Welcome to "Quality Control" circa 2017. wink I played my $900 Yamaha P120 on hundreds of gigs between 2000 to 2008 without a second's problem with the action. Only in the last year did a few keys start sticking and Yamaha sent me a free replacement action.

I'd question if you'll be happy with the Korg pianos and action a year after you buy it but good luck.

Don't know where to tell you to turn ... idk Maybe the MP11 and just play your Nord pianos with that ? And use the CP4 for gigs only ?
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#2866404 - 07/12/17 12:55 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Outkaster Offline
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Loc: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted By: Macsaint777
Judt preordered a Grandstage after sending back an RD-2000 for action issues, getting a replacement, and replacing that with a Nord Piano 3, which I just got replaced...So, TWO Roland RD-2000s, and now TWO Nord Piano 3s... My Triton Studio treated me well for 16 years...Grandstage here I come!

Cheers!

Ben


Cool. I tried a RD-2000 the other day and hated the action.


Edited by Outkaster (07/12/17 12:57 PM)
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#2866561 - 07/13/17 06:36 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Outkaster]
Macsaint777 Offline
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Registered: 06/09/14
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
I find it hard to believe you would hate the RD-2000 action! It is one of the best out there right now. Far better than the Nord Piano 3, the SV-1, or the CP-4 in my opinion. What did you dislike about it specifically?


Mine had some issues for sure, but these were issues physically that showed up over time, not apparent from the feel of the keys immediately.
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#2866567 - 07/13/17 06:52 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Macsaint777
I find it hard to believe you would hate the RD-2000 action!

I was just glad to see it wasn't just me! Admittedly, I only had the opportunity to play it with the sound off, but I didn't like the feel of the action at all.
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#2866578 - 07/13/17 08:19 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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I've spent good time on the RD-2000 as well and am not raving about the action. It's slightly sluggish and takes a bit to get used to it. The older Kawai ES-100 felt this way to me as well the ES-110 does not - not sure what they changed. Apparently Yamaha addresses this on the folded compact action in the CP4 with a leaf spring under each key. Maybe acoustic actions that play well just have better physics on the return with all that weight from the hammer mechanism coming back to original position? Not every folded compact digital action is designed the same and it's tricky to get them to feel and play well.
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#2866580 - 07/13/17 08:25 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Outkaster Offline
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Find to hard I would hate it? Why? It sucked ass. I didn't like the response and it didn't feel very real.
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#2866583 - 07/13/17 08:29 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
I've spent good time on the RD-2000 as well and am not raving about the action. It's slightly sluggish and takes a bit to get used to it. The older Kawai ES-100 felt this way to me as well the ES-110 does not - not sure what they changed.

The ES100 did feel a bit sluggish to me, the ES110 feels a bit "rubbery", I'd have to play them next to each other to be sure which I'd prefer, though my memory (which could be playing tricks) makes me think that the ES100 seemed to "connect" a bit better to its internal sound. (The ES100 also reminded me of the TP100, but of the newer "better" versions of the TP100 I've played. So, not great, but not terrible.) I do remember seeing some discussion of what they changed from the ES00 to ES110, but don't remember the detail... maybe something about being less solid and more hollow? Apparently something that allowed a very significant reduction in travel weight...

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Apparently Yamaha addresses this on the folded compact action in the CP4 with a leaf spring under each key.

Korg RH3 does the same thing.
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#2866928 - 07/14/17 07:31 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Randelph]
LarsHarner Offline
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Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 194
Originally Posted By: Randelph
60 gigs of memory total? Pretty sweet. I suppose that's where Korg will make more money, as part of their expansion packs.

Seems incredibly limited that you can only do split and layer with one part of that being from the ensemble sounds.

Overly limited in terms of editing capability, surely they must have a iPad or computer editor in the works. 60 gigs of memory and such a small screen, it'd be ludicrous otherwise. Guess I'm used to my Nord Stage- of course it's practically half the price, but still, I guess I'm unreasonably expecting more hands on controls. With an editor that'd make all the difference with this board, you'd prepare in advance and load up that favorites bank.

Reminds me a bit of the Korg SP 280, the user interface is overly simplified. For all of its limitations, I found it a fun board to play. But yeah, it does seem like the SV-1 in its simplicity.

A shame they couldn't come in under 35-40 pounds, but I'm sure they tried, manufacturers have got to know by now how many buying decisions this influences.

Can't say this gives me GAS. As the NS3 becomes available, you could probably get a used NS2 88, possibly even the EX, for around the same price, which weighs a little less, is 6 part multi-timbral, and has lots of real time controllers. And, I already know I like the sounds on the Stage.

I suppose it was only a matter of time that we'd get brightly illuminated signage on boards meant for the stage. I suppose for many of us it seems like a point of ridicule, but they did make it something you could turn off, dim or display in different colors, and hey, whatever it takes to get the keyboardist noticed!

Randy


I agree with you on the weight- I actually have a SP280 as well and wish that were a little lighter as well. It is a good board to just dig into for playing rock/blues while my (slightly off topic) ES8 is more for practicing.

I am a huge Korg fan but in a way this is a Kronos "without the Kronos" in a way. Is it the same RH3 action as other boards?

I looked at the downloaded soundlist- so it seems it has mono and stereo versions of many of the AP's, and perhaps 40-50 different B3 sounds. This is good for those just using one speaker/monitor

However, perhaps the ES8 or FP90's are better deals as they have built in speakers for those who want those as well. Right now I use them on my ES8 along with the Electro Voice.

So for $1,500 more one gets a Kronos with actual drawbar controls for example, perhaps really only a $1,300 spread considering retailer discounts etc...

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#2866929 - 07/14/17 07:45 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: LarsHarner]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Yeah it's the same RH3. That's that with Korg.
Need to see how it feels either way - I haven't played the Kronos 88 much. Locally I see mainly the 61 on shop floors.

I like the ES8's action, much better than the ES100 or 110.
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#2866931 - 07/14/17 07:52 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: LarsHarner]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: LarsHarner
So for $1,500 more one gets a Kronos with actual drawbar controls for example

Kronos is much more flexible in tons of ways, but pricier, and bigger/heavier... and philosophically, aimed at a different user, in that you also lose something in exchange for all its extra capabilities... you lose the emphasis on simplicity with all the direct/dedicated controls.
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#2867214 - 07/16/17 06:38 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Cybersoniq Offline
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Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 318
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
It's another "what were they thinking?" moment. It can't be expensive - the Alesis Quadrasynth/QS Series lets you Split/Layer all 16 channels.

It's not always a cost thing. If you're trying to design a board for simple operation with immediate control and minimal menu diving, it may not be sensible to provide 16-zone splits/layers. (And they do have boards that provide that feature for those who need it... not just the more expensive Kronos, but also the less expensive Krome/Kross).

The other thing about "it can't be expensive, because this cheaper board does it" is that you also need to keep in mind the other things the board does that the cheaper board does not do. As I've said before, there are lots of features you can find in thousand dollar boards, but if you put them all into the same board, you don't have a thousand dollar board anymore

Reminds me of the adage you can have it three ways: Good, Fast and Cheap.
Good and Fast won’t be Cheap.
Cheap and Good won’t be Fast.
Cheap and Fast won’t be Good.

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#2867236 - 07/16/17 09:39 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Cybersoniq]
burningbusch Offline
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My frustration with the GS remains, at least how it has been presented by Korg to date. It is class-leading with regards to the number and depth of its sound engines, but class-trailing in terms of programmability, customizability and interoperability. What's the point of saying it has HD-1, AL-1 and CX-3 sound engines if one can't access those engines in a meaningful way. For example, there seems to be no provision for loading a Kronos AL-1 program into it.

There are hundreds of song-specific Al-1/CX-3/HD-1 Kronos programs available that I'm sure would be of great benefit to GS users. There are ~200 Korg and third-party sound libraries available in HD-1 format at the Korg Web Store but it's not possible to bring these into the GS. Even if these needed to be modified in some way to bring them into the GS, I'm sure most developers would be on board. I know I would.

It seems at some point Korg has to make a software editor or Kronos conversion utility available.

Busch.

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#2867242 - 07/16/17 10:15 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
What's the point of saying it has HD-1, AL-1 and CX-3 sound engines if one can't access those engines in a meaningful way.

Besides the marketing point ("from the Kronos!"), it does communicate the inherent qualities of those engines. So sure, it is disappointing that the CX3 engine does not offer 9-drawbar manipulation in any manner... but the fact that they say it is CX3 based (rather than, say, the rompler playback that the SV1 organ sounds are) still tells us something about its sonic and performance characteristics, and I think that applies to HD1 and AL1 as well. But yeah, probably more marketing. ;-)

Originally Posted By: burningbusch
It seems at some point Korg has to make a software editor or Kronos conversion utility available.

I was hoping this was going to be something of a "Kronos playback" machine, where we could load in our Kronos sounds (albeit without all the real-time control you have on the Kronos), but my feeling is that Korg never intended this to be the board you or I were hoping it might be. There's no sysex implementation, so we can't even look to a third party to possibly create an editor. And with only 64 user-storable sound locations, a software editor or conversion utility would be of somewhat limited use anyway. But I could still see this being a really appealing board for lots of people, just as the SV1 has been, even if it's not the board some of us would have wanted it to be.
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#2867254 - 07/16/17 11:23 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
George88 Offline
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Well put, Scott.
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#2867255 - 07/16/17 11:26 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Cybersoniq Offline
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Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 318
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch

[quote=burningbusch]It seems at some point Korg has to make a software editor or Kronos conversion utility available.

I was hoping this was going to be something of a "Kronos playback" machine, where we could load in our Kronos sounds (albeit without all the real-time control you have on the Kronos), but my feeling is that Korg never intended this to be the board you or I were hoping it might be. There's no sysex implementation, so we can't even look to a third party to possibly create an editor. And with only 64 user-storable sound locations, a software editor or conversion utility would be of somewhat limited use anyway. But I could still see this being a really appealing board for lots of people, just as the SV1 has been, even if it's not the board some of us would have wanted it to be.

Agreed that Korg has to have some internal development software to build/manage the libraries for the Grand Stage. Even if Korg wants to tightly control GS libraries, with their existing/future Kronos 3rd party licensed developers, it would make sense to share this editor & conversion tool to port over new GS libraries from those created on the Kronos. Besides, if the Korg GS is borrowing here and there from the Nord Electro 5 playbook, might there be a Korg GS Sound Manager like Nord's?
http://www.nordkeyboards.com/downloads/software-tools/nord-sound-manager

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#2867257 - 07/16/17 11:37 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Cybersoniq]
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Originally Posted By: Cybersoniq
Agreed that Korg has to have some internal development software to build/manage the libraries for the Grand Stage. Even if Korg wants to tightly control GS libraries, with their existing/future Kronos 3rd party licensed developers, it would make sense to share this editor & conversion tool to port over new GS libraries from those created on the Kronos.

A conversion utility for developers sounds a little more feasible than one for end users... they presumably do have something along those lines in-house, and a developer does not necessarily need for everything to be as fully implemented, well documented, and bug free as an end user would demand, developers understand working with "beta" tools, and something like this may never get beyond the beta stage... it only has to be "functional enough." But again, I run into that "64 Favorite" roadblock, which also is all the room the owner has for storing things like custom splits and layers... Unless Korg decides to somehow open up more storage locations (or add the ability to store changes to the 500 sounds already resident), there is just not all that much benefit to be had in third party patches. There's just pretty much no place to put them.
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#2867396 - 07/17/17 08:04 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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Placed my preorder today. My new Nord Piano 3 is starting to make clacking sounds on several keys. This is number three....so I've given it a really good try! The first two had super obvious action problems, but this third one was perfect out of the box. Oh well...I love the Nord Piano Library, so I'm glad I still have my trusty Electro 5D 73! Sweetwater has said I can keep the Nord Piano 3 until the Grandstage arrives, which is looking like about a month (8/18/17). Can't ask for better service than that!
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#2867406 - 07/17/17 09:04 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
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#2867440 - 07/17/17 11:08 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Macsaint777 Offline
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Elmer,

I've posted in the main Nord User Forum, the thread in your first link actually. I've not attempted to contact Nord directly, mainly because Sweetwater has handled my issues better than I could have hoped!

Back when I raised these same concerns with Pablo Mastadon regarding my Nord Piano 2, they were extremely responsive and quickly worked to get me a replacement. I didn't keep it long enough to know if it developed problems, because I played a Roland RD-800 and got hooked on that PHA4 concert action.



Edited by Macsaint777 (07/17/17 11:09 AM)
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#2867447 - 07/17/17 11:23 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
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Will the SV-1 now discontinued??

It's still on the product page.....
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#2867449 - 07/17/17 11:26 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: M_G]
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No, I don't believe so. The SV-1 is still a great seller at $1-$1.7k and they've been playing the colour game. Last was metallic red.
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#2867454 - 07/17/17 11:33 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: M_G]
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Originally Posted By: M_G

Will the SV-1 now discontinued??

It's still on the product page.....

As Elmer said, it is in a whole different price category than the GS, so they will probably keep both. Which I think is good because, even regardless of price or all the other cool things the GS can do that the SV1 can't, I imagine some people will still prefer the SV1. It remains unique in its looks, and its particular soundset (EPs in particular), with the tube, and with its additional effects controls. And in fact that latest Red edition only came out in March of this year.
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#2867460 - 07/17/17 11:58 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: M_G

Will the SV-1 now discontinued??

It's still on the product page.....

As Elmer said, it is in a whole different price category than the GS, so they will probably keep both. Which I think is good because, even regardless of price or all the other cool things the GS can do that the SV1 can't, I imagine some people will still prefer the SV1. It remains unique in its looks, and its particular soundset (EPs in particular), with the tube, and with its additional effects controls. And in fact that latest Red edition only came out in March of this year.


I wish I could get that SV1 Wurli EP sound out of my Kronos!

When we did the KC hang in Chicago a few years back, RedKey brought his Wurlitzer 200 and we had an SV1 and a Kronos there to do side by side comparisons. The SV1 definitely came the closest. You'd think having a dedicated engine, that the Kronos could get there. I'm guessing that the tube in the SV1 is the magic sauce. It would be cool in a future Kronos if they could add a tube and make it available as an IFX.


Edited by J. Dan (07/17/17 12:01 PM)
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#2867462 - 07/17/17 12:00 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
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Originally Posted By: Macsaint777
Placed my preorder today. My new Nord Piano 3 is starting to make clacking sounds on several keys. This is number three....so I've given it a really good try! The first two had super obvious action problems, but this third one was perfect out of the box. Oh well...I love the Nord Piano Library, so I'm glad I still have my trusty Electro 5D 73! Sweetwater has said I can keep the Nord Piano 3 until the Grandstage arrives, which is looking like about a month (8/18/17). Can't ask for better service than that!



Sorry for the OT but OMG ! Are you kidding me ?! facepalm

I would think at this juncture Pablo would jump in and make things right ? Is he (or anyone at Nord) aware of what you are going through with all this ?
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#2867481 - 07/17/17 12:45 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Dave Ferris]
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Apologies for the repost, but Dave, would you and any others mind looking at this and telling me if you feel this is just me being OCD (or crazy) I am perfectly willing to be one or both in this case!

Here is my original reply to Elmer, just FYI.


Elmer,

I've posted in the main Nord User Forum, the thread in your first link actually. I've not attempted to contact Nord directly, mainly because Sweetwater has handled my issues better than I could have hoped!

Back when I raised these same concerns with Pablo Mastadon regarding my Nord Piano 2, they were extremely responsive and quickly worked to get me a replacement. I didn't keep it long enough to know if it developed problems, because I played a Roland RD-800 and got hooked on that PHA4 concert action.




LINK TO ISSUE WITH NORD PIANO NUMBER 3.


https://youtu.be/RJLvuzdJwOI
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#2868095 - 07/20/17 06:08 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Macsaint777
Apologies for the repost, but Dave, would you and any others mind looking at this and telling me if you feel this is just me being OCD (or crazy) I am perfectly willing to be one or both in this case!

LINK TO ISSUE WITH NORD PIANO NUMBER 3.
https://youtu.be/RJLvuzdJwOI


Sorry for the late reply, I'd totally forgot about this.

Yes, a little clicking on the Bb and obviously a lot on the Eb.

Do you hear this while you're playing - either through phones or speakers ? Would you notice it out on the gig in a band ?

In any case, it sounds like it's a done deal - you returned it and said enough already of the NP3. I don't think anyone would blame you at this point. rolleyes

Sorry Ben , hope you have better luck with the Korg.
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#2868099 - 07/20/17 06:23 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Dave Ferris]
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No apologies needed! I'm keeping the Nord Piano 3 until the Korg GrandStage ships to me, then (assuming all is well with the Korg) I'll return the Nord. I still say Nord makes fantastic keyboards, the Stage 3 being a gigging musicians dream, and my Electro 5 D is my favorite clone wheel to date, but man oh man.. this Fatar TP 40 H is just... something. Feels nice actually, plays well.. but yes, I can hear all the clicks and clacks live and at home. Korg has had enough time to get this RH3 right this time around, surely they have learned from the debacle with the Kronos, so I feel good about the GS. I think though, more important than the company that makes your gear, is the one who sells it to you, and if it had not been for the one I am using, this would have been a much worse experience. I'll report back when I get it, and I will absolutely do a video showing ALL the sounds in the GS as I did for the NP3, CP4, and RD-2000.

The more I listen to the GS demos, the better I think these piano sounds are. In a live session, I think they should cut through quite nicely, and I've always got the Nord Electro 5D to get those Nord Pianos!


Cheers!


Ben
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#2868147 - 07/20/17 11:51 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
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#2868164 - 07/21/17 04:29 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
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Embedding the two videos above for better visibility:

Mickie Yoshino:



Rick Wakeman:



- Guru
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#2868180 - 07/21/17 06:03 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Oh my, did Rick just go through the motions? Phoning it in, as the actors say.

I think he's done a few too many endorsement spots in his day.
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#2868208 - 07/21/17 07:05 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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He's paid by the accolade LOL
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#2868214 - 07/21/17 07:14 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Oh my, did Rick just go through the motions? Phoning it in, as the actors say.

I think he's done a few too many endorsement spots in his day.

The big question is, does he love it to bits?

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#2868218 - 07/21/17 07:39 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
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smile
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