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#2867214 - 07/16/17 06:38 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Cybersoniq Offline
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Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Synthaholic
It's another "what were they thinking?" moment. It can't be expensive - the Alesis Quadrasynth/QS Series lets you Split/Layer all 16 channels.

It's not always a cost thing. If you're trying to design a board for simple operation with immediate control and minimal menu diving, it may not be sensible to provide 16-zone splits/layers. (And they do have boards that provide that feature for those who need it... not just the more expensive Kronos, but also the less expensive Krome/Kross).

The other thing about "it can't be expensive, because this cheaper board does it" is that you also need to keep in mind the other things the board does that the cheaper board does not do. As I've said before, there are lots of features you can find in thousand dollar boards, but if you put them all into the same board, you don't have a thousand dollar board anymore

Reminds me of the adage you can have it three ways: Good, Fast and Cheap.
Good and Fast won’t be Cheap.
Cheap and Good won’t be Fast.
Cheap and Fast won’t be Good.

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#2867236 - 07/16/17 09:39 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Cybersoniq]
burningbusch Offline
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My frustration with the GS remains, at least how it has been presented by Korg to date. It is class-leading with regards to the number and depth of its sound engines, but class-trailing in terms of programmability, customizability and interoperability. What's the point of saying it has HD-1, AL-1 and CX-3 sound engines if one can't access those engines in a meaningful way. For example, there seems to be no provision for loading a Kronos AL-1 program into it.

There are hundreds of song-specific Al-1/CX-3/HD-1 Kronos programs available that I'm sure would be of great benefit to GS users. There are ~200 Korg and third-party sound libraries available in HD-1 format at the Korg Web Store but it's not possible to bring these into the GS. Even if these needed to be modified in some way to bring them into the GS, I'm sure most developers would be on board. I know I would.

It seems at some point Korg has to make a software editor or Kronos conversion utility available.

Busch.

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#2867242 - 07/16/17 10:15 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
What's the point of saying it has HD-1, AL-1 and CX-3 sound engines if one can't access those engines in a meaningful way.

Besides the marketing point ("from the Kronos!"), it does communicate the inherent qualities of those engines. So sure, it is disappointing that the CX3 engine does not offer 9-drawbar manipulation in any manner... but the fact that they say it is CX3 based (rather than, say, the rompler playback that the SV1 organ sounds are) still tells us something about its sonic and performance characteristics, and I think that applies to HD1 and AL1 as well. But yeah, probably more marketing. ;-)

Originally Posted By: burningbusch
It seems at some point Korg has to make a software editor or Kronos conversion utility available.

I was hoping this was going to be something of a "Kronos playback" machine, where we could load in our Kronos sounds (albeit without all the real-time control you have on the Kronos), but my feeling is that Korg never intended this to be the board you or I were hoping it might be. There's no sysex implementation, so we can't even look to a third party to possibly create an editor. And with only 64 user-storable sound locations, a software editor or conversion utility would be of somewhat limited use anyway. But I could still see this being a really appealing board for lots of people, just as the SV1 has been, even if it's not the board some of us would have wanted it to be.
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#2867254 - 07/16/17 11:23 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
George88 Offline
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Well put, Scott.

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#2867255 - 07/16/17 11:26 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Cybersoniq Offline
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Registered: 01/24/12
Posts: 322
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch

[quote=burningbusch]It seems at some point Korg has to make a software editor or Kronos conversion utility available.

I was hoping this was going to be something of a "Kronos playback" machine, where we could load in our Kronos sounds (albeit without all the real-time control you have on the Kronos), but my feeling is that Korg never intended this to be the board you or I were hoping it might be. There's no sysex implementation, so we can't even look to a third party to possibly create an editor. And with only 64 user-storable sound locations, a software editor or conversion utility would be of somewhat limited use anyway. But I could still see this being a really appealing board for lots of people, just as the SV1 has been, even if it's not the board some of us would have wanted it to be.

Agreed that Korg has to have some internal development software to build/manage the libraries for the Grand Stage. Even if Korg wants to tightly control GS libraries, with their existing/future Kronos 3rd party licensed developers, it would make sense to share this editor & conversion tool to port over new GS libraries from those created on the Kronos. Besides, if the Korg GS is borrowing here and there from the Nord Electro 5 playbook, might there be a Korg GS Sound Manager like Nord's?
http://www.nordkeyboards.com/downloads/software-tools/nord-sound-manager

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#2867257 - 07/16/17 11:37 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Cybersoniq]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Cybersoniq
Agreed that Korg has to have some internal development software to build/manage the libraries for the Grand Stage. Even if Korg wants to tightly control GS libraries, with their existing/future Kronos 3rd party licensed developers, it would make sense to share this editor & conversion tool to port over new GS libraries from those created on the Kronos.

A conversion utility for developers sounds a little more feasible than one for end users... they presumably do have something along those lines in-house, and a developer does not necessarily need for everything to be as fully implemented, well documented, and bug free as an end user would demand, developers understand working with "beta" tools, and something like this may never get beyond the beta stage... it only has to be "functional enough." But again, I run into that "64 Favorite" roadblock, which also is all the room the owner has for storing things like custom splits and layers... Unless Korg decides to somehow open up more storage locations (or add the ability to store changes to the 500 sounds already resident), there is just not all that much benefit to be had in third party patches. There's just pretty much no place to put them.
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#2867396 - 07/17/17 08:04 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Macsaint777 Offline
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Loc: North Carolina, USA
Placed my preorder today. My new Nord Piano 3 is starting to make clacking sounds on several keys. This is number three....so I've given it a really good try! The first two had super obvious action problems, but this third one was perfect out of the box. Oh well...I love the Nord Piano Library, so I'm glad I still have my trusty Electro 5D 73! Sweetwater has said I can keep the Nord Piano 3 until the Grandstage arrives, which is looking like about a month (8/18/17). Can't ask for better service than that!
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#2867406 - 07/17/17 09:04 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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#2867440 - 07/17/17 11:08 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Macsaint777 Offline
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Loc: North Carolina, USA
Elmer,

I've posted in the main Nord User Forum, the thread in your first link actually. I've not attempted to contact Nord directly, mainly because Sweetwater has handled my issues better than I could have hoped!

Back when I raised these same concerns with Pablo Mastadon regarding my Nord Piano 2, they were extremely responsive and quickly worked to get me a replacement. I didn't keep it long enough to know if it developed problems, because I played a Roland RD-800 and got hooked on that PHA4 concert action.



Edited by Macsaint777 (07/17/17 11:09 AM)
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#2867447 - 07/17/17 11:23 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
M_G Offline
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Registered: 07/17/09
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Loc: Germany

Will the SV-1 now discontinued??

It's still on the product page.....
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#2867449 - 07/17/17 11:26 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: M_G]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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No, I don't believe so. The SV-1 is still a great seller at $1-$1.7k and they've been playing the colour game. Last was metallic red.
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#2867454 - 07/17/17 11:33 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: M_G]
AnotherScott Offline
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Posts: 11218
Originally Posted By: M_G

Will the SV-1 now discontinued??

It's still on the product page.....

As Elmer said, it is in a whole different price category than the GS, so they will probably keep both. Which I think is good because, even regardless of price or all the other cool things the GS can do that the SV1 can't, I imagine some people will still prefer the SV1. It remains unique in its looks, and its particular soundset (EPs in particular), with the tube, and with its additional effects controls. And in fact that latest Red edition only came out in March of this year.
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#2867460 - 07/17/17 11:58 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
J. Dan Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: M_G

Will the SV-1 now discontinued??

It's still on the product page.....

As Elmer said, it is in a whole different price category than the GS, so they will probably keep both. Which I think is good because, even regardless of price or all the other cool things the GS can do that the SV1 can't, I imagine some people will still prefer the SV1. It remains unique in its looks, and its particular soundset (EPs in particular), with the tube, and with its additional effects controls. And in fact that latest Red edition only came out in March of this year.


I wish I could get that SV1 Wurli EP sound out of my Kronos!

When we did the KC hang in Chicago a few years back, RedKey brought his Wurlitzer 200 and we had an SV1 and a Kronos there to do side by side comparisons. The SV1 definitely came the closest. You'd think having a dedicated engine, that the Kronos could get there. I'm guessing that the tube in the SV1 is the magic sauce. It would be cool in a future Kronos if they could add a tube and make it available as an IFX.


Edited by J. Dan (07/17/17 12:01 PM)
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#2867462 - 07/17/17 12:00 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Macsaint777
Placed my preorder today. My new Nord Piano 3 is starting to make clacking sounds on several keys. This is number three....so I've given it a really good try! The first two had super obvious action problems, but this third one was perfect out of the box. Oh well...I love the Nord Piano Library, so I'm glad I still have my trusty Electro 5D 73! Sweetwater has said I can keep the Nord Piano 3 until the Grandstage arrives, which is looking like about a month (8/18/17). Can't ask for better service than that!



Sorry for the OT but OMG ! Are you kidding me ?! facepalm

I would think at this juncture Pablo would jump in and make things right ? Is he (or anyone at Nord) aware of what you are going through with all this ?
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#2867481 - 07/17/17 12:45 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Dave Ferris]
Macsaint777 Offline
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Registered: 06/09/14
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Loc: North Carolina, USA
Apologies for the repost, but Dave, would you and any others mind looking at this and telling me if you feel this is just me being OCD (or crazy) I am perfectly willing to be one or both in this case!

Here is my original reply to Elmer, just FYI.


Elmer,

I've posted in the main Nord User Forum, the thread in your first link actually. I've not attempted to contact Nord directly, mainly because Sweetwater has handled my issues better than I could have hoped!

Back when I raised these same concerns with Pablo Mastadon regarding my Nord Piano 2, they were extremely responsive and quickly worked to get me a replacement. I didn't keep it long enough to know if it developed problems, because I played a Roland RD-800 and got hooked on that PHA4 concert action.




LINK TO ISSUE WITH NORD PIANO NUMBER 3.


https://youtu.be/RJLvuzdJwOI
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#2868095 - 07/20/17 06:08 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
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Originally Posted By: Macsaint777
Apologies for the repost, but Dave, would you and any others mind looking at this and telling me if you feel this is just me being OCD (or crazy) I am perfectly willing to be one or both in this case!

LINK TO ISSUE WITH NORD PIANO NUMBER 3.
https://youtu.be/RJLvuzdJwOI


Sorry for the late reply, I'd totally forgot about this.

Yes, a little clicking on the Bb and obviously a lot on the Eb.

Do you hear this while you're playing - either through phones or speakers ? Would you notice it out on the gig in a band ?

In any case, it sounds like it's a done deal - you returned it and said enough already of the NP3. I don't think anyone would blame you at this point. rolleyes

Sorry Ben , hope you have better luck with the Korg.
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#2868099 - 07/20/17 06:23 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Dave Ferris]
Macsaint777 Offline
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Registered: 06/09/14
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Loc: North Carolina, USA
No apologies needed! I'm keeping the Nord Piano 3 until the Korg GrandStage ships to me, then (assuming all is well with the Korg) I'll return the Nord. I still say Nord makes fantastic keyboards, the Stage 3 being a gigging musicians dream, and my Electro 5 D is my favorite clone wheel to date, but man oh man.. this Fatar TP 40 H is just... something. Feels nice actually, plays well.. but yes, I can hear all the clicks and clacks live and at home. Korg has had enough time to get this RH3 right this time around, surely they have learned from the debacle with the Kronos, so I feel good about the GS. I think though, more important than the company that makes your gear, is the one who sells it to you, and if it had not been for the one I am using, this would have been a much worse experience. I'll report back when I get it, and I will absolutely do a video showing ALL the sounds in the GS as I did for the NP3, CP4, and RD-2000.

The more I listen to the GS demos, the better I think these piano sounds are. In a live session, I think they should cut through quite nicely, and I've always got the Nord Electro 5D to get those Nord Pianos!


Cheers!


Ben
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#2868147 - 07/20/17 11:51 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Macsaint777 Offline
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#2868164 - 07/21/17 04:29 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Ashville.Guru Offline
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Embedding the two videos above for better visibility:

Mickie Yoshino:



Rick Wakeman:



- Guru
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#2868180 - 07/21/17 06:03 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Oh my, did Rick just go through the motions? Phoning it in, as the actors say.

I think he's done a few too many endorsement spots in his day.
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#2868208 - 07/21/17 07:05 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Rusty Mike Offline
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He's paid by the accolade LOL
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#2868214 - 07/21/17 07:14 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Oh my, did Rick just go through the motions? Phoning it in, as the actors say.

I think he's done a few too many endorsement spots in his day.

The big question is, does he love it to bits?

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#2868218 - 07/21/17 07:39 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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smile
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#2869014 - 07/24/17 03:02 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Macsaint777 Offline
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Loc: North Carolina, USA
So, the Grandstage uses the RH3 action, which I understand uses two sensors, not the now more commonly found three sensor per key. I'm coming from an RD-2000, CP4, and Nord Piano 3. Do you think that will be an issue for me? These kinds of specs often do not really matter in real life use, but I've not played anything with an RH3 action besides a Kronos for about an hour. I didn't play it like a piano, and the SV-1 my church has, I only used long enough to train our staff on, I wasn't really playing it 'for real".

Thoughts?

Thanks!
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#2869017 - 07/24/17 03:28 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Dave Ferris Offline
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It was never for me - the Kronos or SV1. I did a quick search and tried to find some old comments that I had playing both in a Jazz context. Couldn't find anything.

Basically in a nutshell I had a hard time executing Jazz lines and heads on the Korgs compared to the Yamaha CP4 and CP5. I felt my improvisational flow was highly hindered both by the sound and action of the Korgs , on AP.

My concern is you're coming from the three best actions - at least imo - available in a portable stage piano at this point in time. For someone who thinks of themselves as more a pianist then a rock keyboardist, I really feel this is a step down.

Like I said earlier, I'd have my doubts, a year out, if the Korg would be fulfilling for you - if the AP was the most important part of the musical equation.

On the other hand, everyone hears, plays and connects with these electronic keyboards differently, in addition to their musical context, so it might be ok for you.

Since it is Sweetwater, they know what you've gone through and you have it on order - try the Korg for a few weeks and see what you think. Definitely use it on a gig though.

If doesn't do it for you maybe the CP4 again or take another shot with the NP3 (and just live with the noisy action ) ? idk
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#2869035 - 07/24/17 06:04 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Macsaint777
So, the Grandstage uses the RH3 action, which I understand uses two sensors, not the now more commonly found three sensor per key. I'm coming from an RD-2000, CP4, and Nord Piano 3. Do you think that will be an issue for me?

The third sensor is useful for same note repeats (particularly quiet ones) and trills, as you do not need to lift the key as high in order to be able to retrigger it. It also means that, without the sustain pedal down, you can repeat a note without having to silence it first (with the sustain pedal, you can always do that). So the importance of a third sensor depends on the importance of those techniques in your playing.

Regardless of third sensor, it's always somewhat subjective, but personally, I think RH3 is okay... not the best, not the worst. On the SV1, it somehow manages to connect especially well with the board's EP sounds. Though on the SV1, there is a phenomenon that many people experience where, every now and then, you'll play a note and it immediately drops out. Apparently this also happened on early Kronos, but was fixed later.
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#2869375 - 07/26/17 10:28 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Macsaint777 Offline
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Sent my third Nord Piano 3 back today, and went to test a Yamaha Montage and Korg Kronos 2 (73 and 88) side by side, since the Grandstage has the Kronos sound engines and same RH3 action. I was left with the shocking feeling that the Montage was an EDM toy with Motif sounds and an FM synth inside.. and by no means did I find it impressive, it was rather laggy and the action was sluggish, even more so than the RH3 on the Korg right next to it. I will say this, based on how the piano sounds responded to my playing in the Montage, I absolutely would not buy one for a stage piano. The Kronos on the other hand, I rather liked the Piano sounds, and 90% of the other sounds. All around, the Kronos 2 was very impressive! I called my Sweetwater sales rep right away and told him to cancel the Grandstage order and send me a 73 key Kronos 2! I resisted the workstation "super keyboard" bandwagon for a long while.. but here we go again, and I was very aware that the RH3 action was not as quick or responsive as the Nord Piano 3, CP4, or RD-2000...but it was pretty good nonetheless, much better than that Montage! I also ordered a Yamaha CP4 again, because...well... it can't be beat for a stage piano.. it just can't. Action wise, probability, and sounds, it is a killer package, and whatever they eventually replace it with, I will buy quickly! Even the CFX samples on the Montage didn't sound as good as the CP4, which was weird!

So, Kronos 2 73 for the road, gigs. CP4 for home, and the occasional all piano sound gigs. Most of the time it will be the Kronos 2 73 on bottom and Nord Electro 5D 73 on top. I've got the CP4 for those demanding piano gigs, so hopefully the journey is over for a while for me!

The Grandstage looks like a good option, but as a primary Stage Piano, the RH3 for sure is not going to cut it for the jazz and fast stuff.

Having had a Nord Piano 3, RD-2000, and CP4, I can say that the CP4 is a killer stage piano.

Cheers!



Ben


Edited by Macsaint777 (07/27/17 04:39 AM)
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#2869383 - 07/26/17 11:59 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Sounds like a good move. Can't beat the CP4 !

I'd love to have a Kronos 2 73 has an auxiliary keyboard.
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#2869415 - 07/27/17 05:28 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Macsaint777]
AnotherScott Offline
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Sounds like a great solution!

FWIW, the RH3 on the Kronos feels a little different from the RH3 on the SV1, and I will assume, probably on the GrandStage as well, as I'm guessing that the difference may come from the fact that the Kronos has aftertouch and the others don't.
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#2869429 - 07/27/17 07:19 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
ProfD Offline
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Loc: Wash DC Area
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
FWIW, the RH3 on the Kronos feels a little different from the RH3 on the SV1, and I will assume, probably on the GrandStage as well, as I'm guessing that the difference may come from the fact that the Kronos has aftertouch and the others don't.

That difference in terms of FTEC is the primary reason I prefer the SV-1 over the Kronos. IMO, the SV-1 EPs respond better to the RH3 action.

Listening to demos of the Grandstage, it sounds like a Kronos. If it feels the same too, my SV-1 is safe.

Of course, I'm still going to play the Grandstage but the online demo has been Tums-like. grin cool
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