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#2865184 - 07/07/17 01:45 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: bob_sd]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Sweetwater has a run through as well with Erskine Hawkins.

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#2865188 - 07/07/17 01:49 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: bob_sd]
CEB Offline
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This one doesn't appeal to me at all.... I have no idea why. There is no little voice saying 'Buy me'. I hear that voice when I see the RD-2000 and I really like the MP-7. I like the CP-4 better than this. Maybe because it seems like a weak ass Kronos and not a stage piano with the synth and organ engines onboard. I like the SV-1 a lot.


Edited by CEB (07/07/17 01:49 PM)
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#2865190 - 07/07/17 01:50 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: CEB]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Originally Posted By: CEB
This one doesn't appeal to me at all.... I have no idea why. There is no little voice saying Buy me. I hear that voice when I see the RD-2000 and I really like the MP-7. I like the CP-4 better than this. Maybe because it seems like a weak ass Kronos and not a stage piano. I like the SV-1 a lot.


I'm getting that vibe too. I know it's early and I haven't sat at it, but listening to all demos so far... the acoustic piano sounds are meh for a piano centric instrument like this. The electrics sound better, just like the SV-1. The synths sound good. But maybe that's KORG.

These AP samples sound really short with a fast unrealistic decay.
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#2865191 - 07/07/17 01:51 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
drawback Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted By: CEB
This one doesn't appeal to me at all.... I have no idea why. There is no little voice saying Buy me. I hear that voice when I see the RD-2000 and I really like the MP-7. I like the CP-4 better than this. Maybe because it seems like a weak ass Kronos and not a stage piano. I like the SV-1 a lot.


I'm getting that vibe too. I know it's early and I haven't sat at it, but listening to all demos so far... the acoustic piano sounds are meh for a piano centric instrument like this. The electrics sound better, just like the SV-1. The synths sound good. But maybe that's KORG.

These samples sound really short with a fast unrealistic decay.

I've been reading through this thread, caught all the demos, checked out the prices & the manuals (briefly) and am not getting what makes this stage piano any more interesting than Yamaha's MX88 at half the price?

Agree with the AP assessment – still sounding "Korgy" to me too.


Edited by drawback (07/07/17 02:01 PM)

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#2865192 - 07/07/17 02:03 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Sweetwater has a run through as well with Erskine Hawkins.



Unfortunately the demo is mono. Maybe they'll repost it.

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#2865193 - 07/07/17 02:06 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: drawback]
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Originally Posted By: drawback
what makes this stage piano any more interesting than Yamaha's MX88 at half the price?


The MX88 is a totally different animal. It's an entry-level "Motif-type" keyboard with different features and sounds, and I would assume a lesser build quality than the Grandstage.
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#2865194 - 07/07/17 02:07 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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This is what they say the SGX-2 inside is delivering,

"These SGX-2 sound engines contain high-capacity
* unlooped stereo samples for every key
* 12 levels of velocity switching to perfectly convey the detailed and powerful expressiveness of an acoustic piano, extending to
* damper resonance that reproduces the spaciousness felt when the pedal is pressed, and even
* mechanical noise

I'll shut up on the AP sounds until I get on one, but... I'm hoping to hear something I'm not right now.
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#2865199 - 07/07/17 02:14 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd


These AP samples sound really short with a fast unrealistic decay.


Not hearing that with the new pianos myself.

https://soundcloud.com/korg/dimensions?in=korg/sets/grandstage-sgx-2

Busch.

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#2865202 - 07/07/17 02:24 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: drawback]
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Originally Posted By: drawback
not getting what makes this stage piano any more interesting than Yamaha's MX88 at half the price?

MX88 uses a sample playback engine with the equivalent of 166 mb of wave data.

Grandstage has the equivalent of 32 gb of wave data for its sample playback (largely for pianos), plus additional engines that use modeling rather than sample playback... i.e. it includes a clonewheel engine and a VA synth engine, etc. Also, I think most would consider RH3 to be a step-up in action from GHS. If it's like the Kronos, the seamless sound transition will work between any sounds or combinations of sounds, whereas MX only supports that between (user definable) sets of 16 sounds. Ergonomically, it also gives you a bit more of a "hands on " interface. More professional back panel... built-in power supply and XLR outs.
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#2865208 - 07/07/17 02:53 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
drawback Offline
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Thanks guys. Different animal indeed.

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#2865212 - 07/07/17 03:04 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: CEB]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: CEB
This one doesn't appeal to me at all.... I have no idea why. There is no little voice saying 'Buy me'. I hear that voice when I see the RD-2000 and I really like the MP-7. I like the CP-4 better than this. Maybe because it seems like a weak ass Kronos and not a stage piano with the synth and organ engines onboard. I like the SV-1 a lot.


Coming from the Kronos at only ~$1000 more, it's hard for me too excited either. I've owned many slab pianos and inevitably found them too restrictive due to their lack of sounds, programming, customization. Save a few sounds I can connect with, in the end I'm frustrated. Nice actions and all.

With the GS, from what I can see there are four Vox and two Compact presets which allow a single editable parameter. Seems like a huge waste of potential. Hope the new organs and APs make to the Kronos in some fashion.

Busch.

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#2865219 - 07/07/17 03:27 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: burningbusch]
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Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Coming from the Kronos at only ~$1000 more, it's hard for me too excited either.

I don't think it will have tons of appeal to lots of Kronos fans. But to get a lot of the "bread and butter" parts of the Kronos, not just for $1100-$1200 less, but with a friendlier interface*, more compact chassis and 9 lbs less travel weight gives you something with an appeal to a different player, I think.

(* I know, Set List mode is friendly. But the rest of the board's operation, not so much.)
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#2865221 - 07/07/17 03:32 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Sam Mullins Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: burningbusch
Coming from the Kronos at only ~$1000 more, it's hard for me too excited either.

I don't think it will have tons of appeal to lots of Kronos fans. But to get a lot of the "bread and butter" parts of the Kronos, not just for $1100-$1200 less, but with a friendlier interface*, more compact chassis and 9 lbs less travel weight gives you something with an appeal to a different player, I think.

(* I know, Set List mode is friendly. But the rest of the board's operation, not so much.)


Agree. As a Kronos owner, this isn't on my radar at all. But if I had something different as my top tier, then it would be appealing as a bottom tier keyboard. And there is enough sound variety to appeal to folks who only want to carry one keyboard.
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#2865226 - 07/07/17 03:56 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Sam Mullins]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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I think the VOX Continental is coming, it has a very similar UI and aesthetic to the Grandstage and that's where the fully editable organ models will be.

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#2865231 - 07/07/17 04:13 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
I think the VOX Continental is coming

I like that method of adjusting drawbars... the immediacy of hard controls (compared to Nord's buttons), but also the ability for them to instantly reflect recalled settings (or a different manual). That or something like Dexibel's motorized faders is really useful, I think.

One more thing about the GS vs Kronos is that I think the GS has a lot more immediate appeal on the showroom floor... you can probably walk over to it and right away feel like you basically know how to use it, unlike Kronos.
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#2865239 - 07/07/17 04:52 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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I imagine perfecting that drawbar tech might be what's holding up the VOX, right? I can't wait to see what it feels like. It's got to be quicker and a more familiar motion than the Nord +/- buttons.
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#2865277 - 07/07/17 07:16 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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My prediction: Eventually, as more and more of our brethren start actually playing this thing on stage, the Dynamics knob is going to be recognized as the greatest innovation in DPs in recent years. Way ahead of stuff like escapement, pedal noise, triple sensors, even.

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#2865288 - 07/07/17 09:36 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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#2865289 - 07/07/17 09:37 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
My prediction: Eventually, as more and more of our brethren start actually playing this thing on stage, the Dynamics knob is going to be recognized as the greatest innovation in DPs in recent years. Way ahead of stuff like escapement, pedal noise, triple sensors, even.

- Guru


You might be right. Simple single knob control of velocity curve could very well make it easy to dial in the way you want the action to interact with the current sound - and hopefully save-able with the preset.

emusician copy suggests the GS A-frame stand might be "limited" as in for early adopters or until supply runs out?

"ships this summer with an eye-catching limited A-frame keyboard stand, a DS1H damper pedal, and a music stand in 88- and 73-note configurations for $2,499 and $2,299 respectively. It will debut at Summer NAMM ’17 at the Korg USA booth #953."
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#2865295 - 07/07/17 10:35 PM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Ashville.Guru Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Simple single knob control of velocity curve could very well make it easy to dial in the way you want the action to interact with the current sound

As I understand it, the Dynamics knob in the GS has nothing to do with velocity curve. Velocity curve is part of the system settings (p. 16 of the manual).

Dynamics affects only the volume difference between the softest and loudest notes. Velocity curves affect both volume and timbre.

Here's why the distinction matters: when your band mix is loud, the softest notes will get drowned out, forcing you to bang on the keys. You can 'fix' the problem with velocity curve, but at the cost of velocity sensitivity. Now you don't have to bang on the keys, but there's no difference between playing soft and playing loud, it sounds the same - both volume and timbre.

And what fun is an AP that isn't velocity sensitive?

Enter the dynamic knob. When you lower dynamics, the timbre is unaffected. Which means the softest notes are still heard above the band mix - but with a mellow timbre. And the timbre brightens up as you dig in, even if the volume doesn't change that much.

Bottomline, you get to play expressively on AP sounds even in a loud band mix.

Velocity curve adjustment has been there for ages now. Dynamics adjustment is a new thing - for hardware boards. It's buried as a parameter in the Kronos (and Casio PX-5S also, I believe). But this begs to be tweaked realtime, and the GrandStage is the first board to provide a handy knob for it.

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#2865307 - 07/08/17 02:55 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
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As you describe it, it sounds basically like compression...
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#2865319 - 07/08/17 04:22 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: zephonic]
Rusty Mike Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
As you describe it, it sounds basically like compression...


Yup
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#2865321 - 07/08/17 04:42 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
As I understand it, the Dynamics knob in the GS has nothing to do with velocity curve. Velocity curve is part of the system settings (p. 16 of the manual). Dynamics affects only the volume difference between the softest and loudest notes. Velocity curves affect both volume and timbre.

I don't think so. From the manual (p. 11), I see it differently. i.e. implying the knob affects tone as well as volume, it says "adjusts how the volume and tone will be changed in response to how hard the keys are played (velocity)" though I suppose one could interpret a tone NOT changing as being an adjustment to how tone will be changed. But then it also says "The dynamics will have no effect on programs that do not change in volume or tone with velocity, such as organ sounds or some synth sounds." If it weren't altering tone, it wouldn't matter whether or not it was being applied to a sound where the tone changed with velocity. (As for it having anything to do with the velocity curve, it also says "the effect will be applied according to the velocity curve that is set" though I think that's basically just saying that it doesn't over-ride that setting, but works in conjunction with it.)

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Simple single knob control of velocity curve could very well make it easy to dial in the way you want the action to interact with the current sound - and hopefully save-able with the preset.

Apparently not savable. From the same page, "Dynamics settings cannot be saved to the favorites. Dynamics will always be off when turning on the Grandstage. Turning DYNAMICS on will cause the effect to be applied, according to the position of the knob." It also applies equally to the two sounds of a split/layer.

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
emusician copy suggests the GS A-frame stand might be "limited" as in for early adopters or until supply runs out?

"ships this summer with an eye-catching limited A-frame keyboard stand,

Nah... I think they're just saying that shipments start this summer, not that the stand only comes with it this summer, if that's what you meant. All indications are that the stand will come standard, and is not intended as a launch promotion. (Of course, that doesn't mean they might not choose to offer it without the stand at some point...)
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#2865325 - 07/08/17 05:02 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: zephonic]
Ashville.Guru Offline
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Originally Posted By: zephonic
As you describe it, it sounds basically like compression...

Exactly...! Except that compression isn't designed for real-time tweaking. Compression is applied post-facto, and you have five parameters that have to be adjusted very carefully to avoid artefacts - for each individual sample. Too messy and complicated for stage use.

Dynamics applies to the sound engine itself. Single parameter, perfectly clean, no artefacts. Ideal for on-stage tweaking.

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#2865326 - 07/08/17 05:18 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Ashville.Guru Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I don't think so. From the manual (p. 11), I see it differently. i.e. implying the knob affects tone as well as volume, it says "adjusts how the volume and tone will be changed in response to how hard the keys are played (velocity)"

Yes, I saw that. I'm pretty sure the manual is worded poorly, because I've actually tested it out on a Kronos. There's a parameter (I think it's called Velocity Bias or Intensity). Setting this to minimum is very instructive - hitting the keys harder changes only the timbre, but not the volume...! Pretty sure this is what the GrandStage knob controls.

And this is exactly how the Dynamic Range parameter in Pianoteq works. I've been using this live, mapped to a hardware knob for years now. The difference it makes, is something to be experienced.

- Guru
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#2865331 - 07/08/17 05:52 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
Originally Posted By: zephonic
As you describe it, it sounds basically like compression...

Exactly...! Except that compression isn't designed for real-time tweaking. Compression is applied post-facto, and you have five parameters that have to be adjusted very carefully

Well, there have been some single-knob implementations of compression (with varying levels of success).

Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I don't think so. From the manual (p. 11), I see it differently. i.e. implying the knob affects tone as well as volume, it says "adjusts how the volume and tone will be changed in response to how hard the keys are played (velocity)"

Yes, I saw that. I'm pretty sure the manual is worded poorly, because I've actually tested it out on a Kronos. There's a parameter (I think it's called Velocity Bias or Intensity). Setting this to minimum is very instructive - hitting the keys harder changes only the timbre, but not the volume...! Pretty sure this is what the GrandStage knob controls.

And this is exactly how the Dynamic Range parameter in Pianoteq works. I've been using this live, mapped to a hardware knob for years now. The difference it makes, is something to be experienced.

Sounds cool. I'll need to experiment with that in the Kronos some time.

I suppose it's also possible that the knob on the Grandstage is some hybrid of the two ideas... that it does affect both volume and timbre, but not equally.
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#2865342 - 07/08/17 06:43 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: AnotherScott]
Ashville.Guru Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I suppose it's also possible that the knob on the Grandstage is some hybrid of the two ideas... that it does affect both volume and timbre, but not equally.

Possible of course, but I sure hope not - that would be incredibly silly of Korg. Affecting timbre means killing expression - for no advantage whatsoever.

Besides, they didn't need to reinvent the wheel. They already have a parameter in the SGX engine, all they needed to do was map it to a knob to get it right.

I'd also recommend playing around with a Pianoteq demo - it's a small download. There's a built-in compressor, buried in the effects section. And yet, there's a dedicated Dynamics parameter prominently next to the volume control. Korg's engineers seem to have converged on the same idea.

- Guru
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#2865351 - 07/08/17 07:18 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Heh, I'm still not clear on wether this is a one knob compressor (like on Yamaha live mixer's channel strips) or a single knob velocity curve adjuster. Does the GS also have a way to go in and select velocity (hard, normal, soft) like most every other stage piano? If not, is this intended to replace that? Does the GS offer compression in the fx section? Can it be edited or is it on or off?

I need to look at the manual deeper.
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#2865357 - 07/08/17 08:03 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: ElmerJFudd]
burningbusch Offline
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With the SGX on the Kronos you have two independent parameters related to velocity response:

VELOCITY BIAS (timbre): negative values compress the range giving you a darker tone while positive values expand the range, i.e. brighter.

VELOCITY INTENSITY (volume): negative values compress the dynamic range while positive values expand it. For example, a value of -100 will cause all notes to have the same volume regardless of how hard the keys are depressed.

In addition, the instrument has an overall velocity response parameter found in GLOBAL. The GS seems to be identical in this regard.

The DYNAMICS knob on the GS does not appear to be a standard compressor as the documentation says it relates to the velocity response curves set in GLOBAL. Also, it says it does not affect organ/synth tones which are not velocity sensitive. A compressor would of course affect all tones.

It sounds to me like some variation of the two parameters found in the SGX engine on the Kronos.

Busch.

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#2865362 - 07/08/17 08:14 AM Re: Korg Grandstage (Released) [Re: Ashville.Guru]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru

Possible of course, but I sure hope not - that would be incredibly silly of Korg. Affecting timbre means killing expression - for no advantage whatsoever.



VELOCITY BIAS does affect timbre but it does not kill expression. In fact it might increase expression for some players. If you have a particularly heavy touch or your trying to play expressive piano parts on a light action keyboard, it is very easy to bang into the upper, bright sample layers (MIDI notes 100+). In this sense your range is limited. By setting a negative value, you are simply starting with a bit of a handicap, so while you can still hit those highest velocities/timbres it takes more effort and might be more expressive, again for certain players/situations.

I always set my SGX pianos to a negative value BIAS (timbre) while setting the INTENSITY (volume) to a positive value. This suits my playing style.

Busch.

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