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#2856116 - 05/19/17 08:21 AM Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action?
AnotherScott Online   content
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I have now played two boards that allegedly have the triple sensor version of the Fatar TP100... The Numa Stage and the Dexibel P3. While both felt better than some other TP100 boards I've played, I could not coax any third sensor behavior out of either of them. That is, I could not manage to retrigger a key without lifting it high enough to silence it first. When I first experienced this on the Numa Stage, I assumed it was likely a defect in the piece I tried. But now that I've experienced the same thing on a different board, I'm wondering if there's some inherent issue. Has anyone actually had success here? Besides the two boards I mentioned, another board with this action would be the Studiologic SL88 Studio.
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#2856195 - 05/19/17 03:46 PM Re: Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action? [Re: AnotherScott]
Ashville.Guru Offline
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Scott, did you test the MIDI output or just the audio?

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#2856198 - 05/19/17 04:01 PM Re: Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action? [Re: Ashville.Guru]
PianoMan51 Offline
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My only Fatar board is an old K-2500. I've had it open so many times that I believe the Fatar keybed (not keyboard) does not do any electronic processing. There is no 'Fatar board' in the Kurzweil.

So, I interpret that the difference between two and three sensors, from the Fatar point of view is that there is an additional set of sensors that the keyboard electronics can parse. This would mean that it's the keyboard manufacturer, not the keybed manufacturer, that utilizes the additional information and then decides what to do with it.

This is what I think Nord is doing when they talk about the new Piano 3.

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#2856201 - 05/19/17 04:26 PM Re: Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action? [Re: PianoMan51]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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on same topic, what about the Casio boards that boast triple sensor? Are they actually able to repeat notes from partial lift with on board sound engine? On MIDI out?

Also, Fatar is saying triple sensor on the SL Grand as well, which is same or similar to the NP3. Can the NP3 do the triple sensor dance with the internal sound engine? On MOODY pot? Can the SL88 Grand do it with Garritan CFX or Ivory?

If not, the tech isn't effective and we've been victims of marketing again. wink
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#2856209 - 05/19/17 05:27 PM Re: Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
cphollis Offline
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Based on the vids I've seen, I'm not convinced there's any appreciable triple sensor effect with the TP100. Then again, never played one live so take this with the appropriate grain of salt.
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#2856226 - 05/19/17 06:39 PM Re: Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action? [Re: Ashville.Guru]
AnotherScott Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Ashville.Guru
Scott, did you test the MIDI output or just the audio?

I tested MIDI output as well.
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#2856230 - 05/19/17 06:51 PM Re: Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action? [Re: AnotherScott]
Ashville.Guru Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
I tested MIDI output as well.

Was the MIDI output as advertised? I.e. would it trigger subsequent Note Ons without Note Offs inbetween?

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#2856632 - 05/22/17 06:39 AM Re: Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action? [Re: Ashville.Guru]
AnotherScott Online   content
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First, for those who may not be so familiar, it might be helpful for me to reiterate what a third sensor should let you do. Many people have said it lets you repeat a note more quickly, but actually, it has little to do with speed... rather, it's mostly about letting you repeat a note more softly.

For example, the famously fast repetition at the beginning of "Angry Young Man" does not require three sensors, because it is being played loudly (at high velocity). In order to get that velocity, the key needs to rise high between strikes, you do not keep the key partially depressed between strikes. (In fact, Billy Joel actually plays it with two hands.) But if you want to repeat the key softly, without fully raising the key between strikes, the third sensor permits that restrike from a lower position in the key's travel. Related to this, if you are NOT holding the sustain pedal down, the third sensor will allow you to repeat that note without having to lift the key so high as to silence the note before restriking it. (Of course, with the pedal down, that lack of silencing will be the case no matter what.) The third sensor also makes quick trills easier to play... again, mostly if you want them to sound at less than a forte volume.

Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
I interpret that the difference between two and three sensors, from the Fatar point of view is that there is an additional set of sensors that the keyboard electronics can parse. This would mean that it's the keyboard manufacturer, not the keybed manufacturer, that utilizes the additional information and then decides what to do with it.

Sure. But if the manufacturer of a digital piano advertises that they are using a three-sensor action, the buyer of that piano should obviously expect three-sensor behavior out of it when playing piano. In this case, it is Numa and Dexibell (not Fatar) who are touting the third sensor in these products.

I've never seen any complaints of third-sensor behavior not functioning as expected on boards from other mfrs (Roland, Kawai, Yamaha, Casio), nor any comment about it only working over MIDI, nor have I had any issue of not experiencing it when I expected it when playing those boards. But the 3-sensor TP100 is something of a rare breed, and I haven't seen many comments about it... and the fact that I've had issues with both of the models I've tried makes me suspicious that something might be amiss on these boards.

Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
on same topic, what about the Casio boards that boast triple sensor? Are they actually able to repeat notes from partial lift with on board sound engine?

Yes, although the third sensor is relatively high, making it a less effective implementation than some others. PianoManChuck has video about that at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnqHStIL02E

Originally Posted By: cphollis
Based on the vids I've seen, I'm not convinced there's any appreciable triple sensor effect with the TP100. Then again, never played one live so take this with the appropriate grain of salt.

It would be pretty much impossible to notice from a video, unless the player was specifically and obviously using a technique that demonstrated it. For one thing, since you can't read the mind of the player in a video, you can't tell if he's getting the result he is aiming for. So for example, if you hear a note cut out before it is repeated, you would not know if that was due to lack of third sensor behavior, or if the third sensor behavior exists but the player didn't use the proper technique to achieve it, or if the player intentionally lifted the key higher as he played because, artistically, he made the choice of *wanting* the note to stop playing before he retriggered it, which is just as valid as not wanting it to. Just as on an acoustic piano, either behavior should be possible, and without knowing the player's intent, you can't know if the absence of the sound of third-sensor behavior is or is not a flaw. Similarly, if you don't hear a repeated note cut out before it is retriggered, you can't necessarily tell from a video whether it was because he was making use of the third-sensor behavior, or maybe he just had the pedal down. (I'm assuming the video isn't showing his feet!)



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