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Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action?


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I have now played two boards that allegedly have the triple sensor version of the Fatar TP100... The Numa Stage and the Dexibel P3. While both felt better than some other TP100 boards I've played, I could not coax any third sensor behavior out of either of them. That is, I could not manage to retrigger a key without lifting it high enough to silence it first. When I first experienced this on the Numa Stage, I assumed it was likely a defect in the piece I tried. But now that I've experienced the same thing on a different board, I'm wondering if there's some inherent issue. Has anyone actually had success here? Besides the two boards I mentioned, another board with this action would be the Studiologic SL88 Studio.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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My only Fatar board is an old K-2500. I've had it open so many times that I believe the Fatar keybed (not keyboard) does not do any electronic processing. There is no 'Fatar board' in the Kurzweil.

 

So, I interpret that the difference between two and three sensors, from the Fatar point of view is that there is an additional set of sensors that the keyboard electronics can parse. This would mean that it's the keyboard manufacturer, not the keybed manufacturer, that utilizes the additional information and then decides what to do with it.

 

This is what I think Nord is doing when they talk about the new Piano 3.

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on same topic, what about the Casio boards that boast triple sensor? Are they actually able to repeat notes from partial lift with on board sound engine? On MIDI out?

 

Also, Fatar is saying triple sensor on the SL Grand as well, which is same or similar to the NP3. Can the NP3 do the triple sensor dance with the internal sound engine? On MOODY pot? Can the SL88 Grand do it with Garritan CFX or Ivory?

 

If not, the tech isn't effective and we've been victims of marketing again. ;)

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I tested MIDI output as well.

Was the MIDI output as advertised? I.e. would it trigger subsequent Note Ons without Note Offs inbetween?

 

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This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith
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First, for those who may not be so familiar, it might be helpful for me to reiterate what a third sensor should let you do. Many people have said it lets you repeat a note more quickly, but actually, it has little to do with speed... rather, it's mostly about letting you repeat a note more softly.

 

For example, the famously fast repetition at the beginning of "Angry Young Man" does not require three sensors, because it is being played loudly (at high velocity). In order to get that velocity, the key needs to rise high between strikes, you do not keep the key partially depressed between strikes. (In fact, Billy Joel actually plays it with two hands.) But if you want to repeat the key softly, without fully raising the key between strikes, the third sensor permits that restrike from a lower position in the key's travel. Related to this, if you are NOT holding the sustain pedal down, the third sensor will allow you to repeat that note without having to lift the key so high as to silence the note before restriking it. (Of course, with the pedal down, that lack of silencing will be the case no matter what.) The third sensor also makes quick trills easier to play... again, mostly if you want them to sound at less than a forte volume.

 

I interpret that the difference between two and three sensors, from the Fatar point of view is that there is an additional set of sensors that the keyboard electronics can parse. This would mean that it's the keyboard manufacturer, not the keybed manufacturer, that utilizes the additional information and then decides what to do with it.

Sure. But if the manufacturer of a digital piano advertises that they are using a three-sensor action, the buyer of that piano should obviously expect three-sensor behavior out of it when playing piano. In this case, it is Numa and Dexibell (not Fatar) who are touting the third sensor in these products.

 

I've never seen any complaints of third-sensor behavior not functioning as expected on boards from other mfrs (Roland, Kawai, Yamaha, Casio), nor any comment about it only working over MIDI, nor have I had any issue of not experiencing it when I expected it when playing those boards. But the 3-sensor TP100 is something of a rare breed, and I haven't seen many comments about it... and the fact that I've had issues with both of the models I've tried makes me suspicious that something might be amiss on these boards.

 

on same topic, what about the Casio boards that boast triple sensor? Are they actually able to repeat notes from partial lift with on board sound engine?

Yes, although the third sensor is relatively high, making it a less effective implementation than some others. PianoManChuck has video about that at

 

Based on the vids I've seen, I'm not convinced there's any appreciable triple sensor effect with the TP100. Then again, never played one live so take this with the appropriate grain of salt.

It would be pretty much impossible to notice from a video, unless the player was specifically and obviously using a technique that demonstrated it. For one thing, since you can't read the mind of the player in a video, you can't tell if he's getting the result he is aiming for. So for example, if you hear a note cut out before it is repeated, you would not know if that was due to lack of third sensor behavior, or if the third sensor behavior exists but the player didn't use the proper technique to achieve it, or if the player intentionally lifted the key higher as he played because, artistically, he made the choice of *wanting* the note to stop playing before he retriggered it, which is just as valid as not wanting it to. Just as on an acoustic piano, either behavior should be possible, and without knowing the player's intent, you can't know if the absence of the sound of third-sensor behavior is or is not a flaw. Similarly, if you don't hear a repeated note cut out before it is retriggered, you can't necessarily tell from a video whether it was because he was making use of the third-sensor behavior, or maybe he just had the pedal down. (I'm assuming the video isn't showing his feet!)

 

 

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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  • 1 year later...

I have a (FATAR) StudioLogic SL88 Studio

 

The tri-sensor tech works perfectly, at some point I intend to put a video on Youtube.

 

I think FATAR must wonder why they bother, as it seems there is never enough posts on forums claiming implicitly that its FATAR's fault that Arturia, Nord, Native Instruments, Kurzweil, or some other brand didn't enable the tri-sensor featureset on the TP100, or felt that an entry level hammer action keyboard was suitable for a £2000 piano or synth.

 

 

It's not going to be as good as the £1500 Kawai MIDI controller, but I understand it's far far better than the Casio Priva implementation, which barely works at all according to some video demos.

 

That's not to say the TP100 keyboard is perfect, mine will probably need a look over before it reaches the end of the 2 yr warranty over a some minor concerns regarding sense of slight movement in around five heavily used keys, but at £350 I don't think you can complain, especially with all the features the controller packs in.

 

Three two axis sticks, a colour screen, versatility with with customise-able response profiles, 4 way multi-timbral and multi-layer MIDI mappings, and support for up to 6 pedals at the same time (or two expression pedals, plus two switch pedals if you don't use their multi-pedal which puts two switch pedals plus an expression pedal into a single jack.

 

I don't think they deserve to be blamed because other companies don't implement all the features.

 

EDIT (FATAR and StudioLogic are the same company - if you didn't know. its their retail brand)

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I 100% agree with the Original poster. The 3rd sensor implementation of the Fatar Keybess in both the studio And grand Version are useless . The sensor is placed much to high so hou have to release the key almost entirely. Precise the opposite of what youre expecting from a correct implementation , wich is being able to repeat almost from the bottom of the key. IMHO the best implementations are from Kawai and Yamaha. Then Roland (already a bit higher), then Casio (already too high up the key) and worst al fatars. The RH3 Korg is already so fast , it does not really need A third sensor. With its two sensors it is alteady way more responsive than the fatars. Believe me - Ive owned or own them all and the way the keybed reacts is something I am very picky about. My current PHA50 keys are very responsive but 3rd sensor behavior was better in my Kawais (GF, RHII, RHIII). And I will never go back to A TP100 keybed; hoped the Kontrol S88 MKII would have better keys , but unfortunately.
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FATAR and StudioLogic are the same company - if you didn't know. its their retail brand)

and also Numa.

 

The RH3 Korg is already so fast , it does not really need A third sensor. With its two sensors it is alteady way more responsive than the fatars.

It is true that the 2 sensors in the RH3 are placed such that you get some almost-3-sensor behavior, i.e. you don't have to release a key as high before restriking it. However, unlike a 3-sensor implementation, even with the low release point, you will find that a note will be silenced before you can restrike it (unless the sustain pedal is depressed). With the sustain pedal down, yes, you might not be able to tell the difference between the RH3 and a 3-sensor board, but without the sustain pedal down, there is still that difference. That said, the need to repeat a note without silencing it first while also not depressing the sustain pedal may not be something a player typically needs.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Yep the Studiologic SL88 Studio does. I owned one for a while (but the OS is so wacky I dumped it) and it did indeed allow you to play repeat notes with only a half key release (or thereabouts anyway)

 

Very nice to play actually! If I went back to a PC based rig, I'd get another one...In the end I ran it all from Cantabile and did not use the Fatar OS (or I should say Studiologic) at all.

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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I 100% agree with the Original poster. The 3rd sensor implementation of the Fatar Keybess in both the studio And grand Version are useless . The sensor is placed much to high so hou have to release the key almost entirely.

 

 

This is not my experience with a circa 2018 version

 

Its 4 to 5 mm off the top with about 12mm of travel in total that's about 2/3 of the way up, that's OK for me, though 6mm would have been better.

 

The Casio Priva's which first featured it didn't even trigger half the time by comparison

 

I think you need to consider the price point, something nobody considers when bitching about FATAR

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My current PHA50 keys are very responsive but 3rd sensor behavior was better in my Kawais (GF, RHII, RHIII). And I will never go back to A TP100 keybed; hoped the Kontrol S88 MKII would have better keys , but unfortunately.

 

Don't those keyboards come in Piano's/Synths which cost over four figures, sure the TP100 will be terrible by comparison, and probably the TP40 too.

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My current PHA50 keys are very responsive but 3rd sensor behavior was better in my Kawais (GF, RHII, RHIII).

 

I just wish Kawai would go ahead and build a controller for synthesists that builds on one of their better actions. Something like the VPC-1 with pitch and mod wheels plus poly aftertouch would be utterly irresistible for studio use.

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Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R

MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Yamaha CP88 ~ Expressive E Osmose

Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic ~ Chapman MLB1 Signature Bass

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Ya, the Kawai ES8 plays great for a compact action, $1999.

The MP7 not too shabby as well, $1799.

and the venerable CP4, $1999.99 as well.

 

On the cheap, the Casio action is quite useable for folks that need it to feel piano-like. PX-160 through PX-560, $499-$1199.99.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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What people tend to forget when critising fatar..

Is that it has proven to be the world leading semi/weighted and organ keybed..

 

And they keep improving their hammer action keybeds year after year..

I've liked plenty of Fatar actions. But I think the reason they are "world leading" is that so many actions are not available to anyone except the company that makes them. Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Casio, Korg primarily use their own actions, and don't sell them to anyone else. So if you're Nord, Kurzweil, Hammond, Dexibell, Crumar, whoever, there aren't too many companies you can buy actions from.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Building actions is very niche. Fatar hardly has a competitor. So its hard not to be world leading. The TP-8O gets modded from stock to feel better for players - who knows why this is necessary and not just standard or made to order. The TP-40L is popular when needing to play piano, organ, synth and orch stuff all from same keyboard.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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I would expect Nord now be big enough to develop their own keybeds. The action on the high end Nords is one of the biggest complaints. Probably not enough complaints to invest in developping an own keybed, or just not their business strategy...

Rudy

 

 

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I don't know whether Nord does enough volume to justify building their own keyboards, but even if they do, the other part of the equation is, do they have enough design and fabrication expertise to expect they could build a better one than what they're already using, and could they make them at the same or lower cost then those Fatars.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Yes, I understand that. But of course, if your company is big enough, you can invest in R&D / people to get that expertise. But I agree it is probably a real big investment, so maybe indeed not the wisest one.

 

One of the few complaints I have on my Nord lead A1 is that crappy fatar keybed...

Rudy

 

 

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I'm not knowledgeable in the specifics of these products, but Don't Nord kind-of do something in-between? Where they 'genuinely' customise the FATAR, probably with decent results judging by feedback, I'm guessing they delayed implementation of 3 sensor tech to not damage their reputation if they released something before they felt it ready.
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The best kept secret in mi manufacturing. No where in their advertising copy, specs, or anywhere else does it attest to this. They dont even refer to their actions by their Fatar model #s. Rebranding then as HA, HP, etc. The only ones who say this are owners who say they heard it from a sales rep or from at a NAMM show.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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What people tend to forget when critising fatar..

Is that it has proven to be the world leading semi/weighted and organ keybed..

 

And they keep improving their hammer action keybeds year after year..

I've liked plenty of Fatar actions. But I think the reason they are "world leading" is that so many actions are not available to anyone except the company that makes them. Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Casio, Korg primarily use their own actions, and don't sell them to anyone else. So if you're Nord, Kurzweil, Hammond, Dexibell, Crumar, whoever, there aren't too many companies you can buy actions from.

 

Even Korg europe and previously Roland europe oftem use fatar semi weighted actions..

Just because they are that good.

 

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Even Korg europe and previously Roland europe oftem use fatar semi weighted actions..

Just because they are that good.

...or maybe because in certain cases, it was more cost effective than using/creating an action of their own for the purposes at hand.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Even Korg europe and previously Roland europe oftem use fatar semi weighted actions..

Just because they are that good.

...or maybe because in certain cases, it was more cost effective than using/creating an action of their own for the purposes at hand.

 

Probably. And this is probably the same for Nord. I completely understand the business concept of outsourcing certain things in your company, but IMO this only make sense for your product when a part is 1) not a defining part of the product 2) a commodity, or at least available in such a way there a good alternatives. For the keybeds I dont think this holds. I understand that small companies do not have the resources to design their own action, I thought Nord might did by no. Or maybe there is enough customer satisfaction coming from the Fatars (although most of the people I know love their Nord, but hate the action).

Rudy

 

 

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I completely understand the business concept of outsourcing certain things in your company, but IMO this only make sense for your product when a part is 1) not a defining part of the product 2) a commodity, or at least available in such a way there a good alternatives..

 

Strictly speaking from a business strategy / business model perspective, I might suggest an additional perspective, Rudy.

 

To my way of thinking a wise company might strategically choose outsourcing a key component of their value proposition when it is simply not an area where they have competitive advantage or unique expertise. Opportunity cost suggests the company is best served focusing on what they do better than anyone else (or what they do best) and leave the rest to trusted partners.

 

For example, no one would argue the proprietary machine isn't a key part of Nestle's Nespresso business model, for instance...but they trust a manufacturing partner to execute so they can focus on cranking out those little expensive coffee pods (customer acquisition and lock-in).

 

Returning to the topic at hand, a few manufacturers (Yamaha, Kawai) have preexisting expertise in home-brewing keyboard actions. The others buy it from the 800 lb. gorilla in the sector. For example, I'm told my Kronos' "Korg RH3" is a Fatar action and that Korg nowadays is as much an "assembler" of parts as it is a manufacturer in the traditional sense of the word.

..
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I agree on your wise insights (as always) Tim. I think I was trying to say the same. In case of the Nespresso example; It doesnt make sense if Nespresso coorperated with a company that built machines making their coffee taste like crap. Thats what I meant with either it the outsourced component shouldnt be a key component, or there should be a manufacturer which has the right qualities to do justice to the product. Apperantly Nord thinks the Fatar keybeds do in their case. They are selling products, so apparently it works:)

 

edit: sorry for the OT.

Rudy

 

 

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  • 4 years later...

Trying hard to decide if i should spend the extra thousands for the latest new digital stage piano-outside of the digital consoles with the grand hammer actions-such as the Kawai MP11SE or the Casio GP series-I have no room and no need to spend 4-5000 or more for an additional hammer-weighted digital console. So have been studying incessantly the last month or so trying to talk myself into it-but the more I study and listen-the more I'm convinced I will not get an appreciable better sounding or playing digital without going to a console, or a real grand! For example-I recently picked up an old Korg SP-500-with the "RH-II" Korg action. Wrong, it's a Fatar-i opened it to do some cleaning and restoring and there it was-specifically a TP40, and it's graded. i know this because i have the identical (almost) TP40 in my old Alesis Fusions-not graded!!  And the big surprise-this action is overall heavier than the Fusion TP40 across all octaves (yep!) and plays remarkably well with a lowly P50m Yamahas-outdated-piano module. So.....the conflict is-for a real digital escapement action-except for the Kawai MP11Se which weighs 74 pounds-only the consoles will do. the rest-are all so close in design to what I already have, looks like I have to stand pat. I see nothing but compromises lately-rehashed Fatars, plasticky complex actions, and basically the same Fatar design I already play in instruments most of you would describe as ancient. If I could buy my own key assemblies, I'd build my own digitals from scratch-don't laugh some are doing this already, I've seen a few custom designs on the web. I am in process of taking an old alesis QS-8 with a dead mainboard, and maybe sussing out how to redesign with my own mainboard in there-or a computer tablet with virtual instruments-built into the case-basically using just the case, the keys and the power supply! This too, is a very playable Fatar, the older TP-20 with aftertouch. Why not.

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