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#2848111 - 04/09/17 10:29 AM What is Rock&Roll?
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 190
Loc: Shenzhen, China
Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out.
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#2848132 - 04/09/17 11:46 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
If one thing is clear from all the various discussions in this forum, whether over the years since I've been here and just recently.....

There doesn't seem to be ONE clear definition that's achieved a consensus. Hell, we can't even come to an agreement as to when it actually BEGAN, let alone just what it IS. But one thing does stand out and most of us agree on is that Rock'n'Roll is a constant growing and "shape-shifting" entity that seems to follow one basic yet flexible rule:

Keep it moving and moving those who play and listen. Like the old "Bandstand" joke; "It's got a good beat and you can dance to it, so I'll give it an 85 Dick." But there's one thing you can try....

Listen to some of the music that was considered rock'n'roll back when it's believed to have begun( commercially, that's agreed to be around 1955) and then progress over the years and see how anything newer stacks up against the earlier stuff. That may or may not help, but....

You mentioned "folk" up there in your query. Now, personally, I wouldn't consider it to be in the rock'n'roll envelope, but when a "folk" type tune was played with accompanyment of electric guitar, bass and drums, it got called "Folk-ROCK". And I do understand your confusion, as far as some of the inductees go. For example, you also mentioned RAP. And there's many who DON'T consider it to be rock'n'roll, but when the genre began, it WAS radically different from what was considered "mainstream" and "socially acceptable"(meaning the OLD folks didn't like it), so my guess would be that RAP fits in the HOF because it TOO was radically different when it came about, and I've always contended that there probably wouldn't BE any Rap, Hip-Hop and the like if it WASN'T for rock'n'roll busting the chains and flinging the musical gates wide open.

I hope SOME of this helps, but maybe I confused you a bit more. If I did, I apologize and it wasn't my intent.
Whitefang
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#2848133 - 04/09/17 11:53 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Bottom End Offline
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Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 2257
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out.
As far as the R&R HOF is concerned, whatever gets you to pay the admission fee to view the exhibits, and encourages you to buy a bunch of RRHOF branded merchandise, that's Rock & Roll.
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#2848137 - 04/09/17 12:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9821
Loc: Northern California
JuJu, I think the hey day(s) for rock and roll was from about '55 through '65 and from that point on a lot of music was called rock and roll that was later just called rock...or you could start including country rock, alt rock, acid rock, metal, heavy metal, pop rock, classic rock, 50's rock, even disco and the list goes on and on. I don't consider Rap or Folk as rock and roll and yet that music gets incorporated as well into R&R Hall of Fame music and inductees. What you consider as your rock and roll is what is important. +1 the R&R Hall of Fame includes tons of non-rock and rollers. The old music had a rock measure followed by a roll measure if things get too technical LOL! cool
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#2848142 - 04/09/17 12:36 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5859
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
[This was typed while BottomEnd & Larry were typing.]


If y'wanna get strit on defining R&R y'd haveta stop sometime in late 1950s, then switch over to "rock" abt mid-60s & so on.

I'd say what defines itself as R&R is the R&B-derived music that grew from the intermixing of music styles in mid 20th C. + the musics that followed.
That said, one can find older examples back as far as Charley Patton & maybe Beethoven & Tchaikovsky, whose 1812 Overture sounds like the Who to me.

Lotsa modern country music, starting early 1970s, sounds just like classic rock. Many ppl dislike hip-hop but let's be honest that's basically a cultural prejudice; if y' listen to Public Enemy, sounds very like James Brown, & , sorry, one can't mount a true & successful argument that JB wasn't one rockin' cat.

It's esp problematic when ppl try edging out stuff simply b/c they may not like it.
I know a woman who says women can't do rock music.
Some think only metal is true modern rock.

When ya try to put up a fence to corral art, it seldom works.

Tell me which of these ain't rock music ?
Why'd you think so ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR2gR6SZC2M

Sure sounds like Chuck Berry licks to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7cL9yJ41gA

Issat C&W ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UjvdZm-Tu8

It's The Beatles. How can it not be rock ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

Using the same techniques as that Beatle track to achieve the sound of James Brown to underline the lyrix = Don't believe the hype !

James Dickenson pretending to be Jim Morrison singin' a Dylan song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LFnXgsOVDU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-TVrR8wZc


Actually the thing abt modern rock & roll music is best explained by the book MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.
It's basically the story of an infectiousness that gradually overtakes & (slowly but Shirley) unifies ppl during the 20th C.




Edited by d (04/09/17 12:46 PM)
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#2848149 - 04/09/17 12:50 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
See what I mean about lack of consensus?

But there's a lot of truth in the last two posts:

d's statement about putting up a fence to corral art not working is true for ALL art forms. R&R especially. That made good sense.

And LARRY's one sentence, "What you consider as your rock and roll is what is important" couldn't be TRUER.
Whitefang
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#2848154 - 04/09/17 01:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
CEB Offline
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If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.
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So can a auto Mechanic. " - Stokes Hunt

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#2848164 - 04/09/17 01:44 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Dannyalcatraz Online   content
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5133
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Did your head bob or bang? Did your ass boogie? Did you feel an adrenaline rush?

Odds are good it was some form of Rock & Roll.





(Or you've been mixing stimulants and hallucinogens again...)
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#2848165 - 04/09/17 01:48 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5859
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: CEB
If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.


w00t


Note how in some shots the drummer's LH stick seems to be flickin' outta Richard's mouth like a snake's tongue.
Debbil music indeed !

PianoBanana
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#2848166 - 04/09/17 01:56 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Dannyalcatraz Online   content
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5133
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: CEB
If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.


You sound like a man who'd enjoy the work of the late Mark Sandman's band, Morphine.


And- despite having a harmonica instead of a sax- his prior band, Treat Her Right.
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Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2848204 - 04/09/17 05:59 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 190
Loc: Shenzhen, China
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.
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#2848210 - 04/09/17 06:15 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I don't know how much exposure you've had since then, but I envy you your discovery. Those "first exposures" are when it's the most fun! smile
Whitefang
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#2848225 - 04/09/17 07:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9821
Loc: Northern California
I'm glad you got to come over JuJu and take some of that good old rock and roll back home with you! The Beatles are a great band to learn it from! cool
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#2848233 - 04/09/17 09:30 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Dannyalcatraz Online   content
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5133
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2848268 - 04/10/17 05:41 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 606
Loc: Virginia
Etta James recorded a song "Roll with me Henry - The Wallflower".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shpLJJ_ku0M

which was preceded by Hank Ballard's Work with me Henry.

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#2848287 - 04/10/17 07:33 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 12328
My wise crack about "If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll" wasn't something I made up. This is something a bandleader I worked for when I was a college student used to say. I paid my way through college playing in a 50s and 60s Pre-British Invasion Rock n Roll review show. Sort of along the lines of Sha Na Na. The bandleader was a Tenor Sax man. He hated the British bands with the slight exception of the Rolling Stones. Blamed them for coming over and putting American bands out of work ...... seriously he said that. Not sure I would want to play that gig now but I sure wished the gold lamé suit still fit. grin But I loved the music. It was fun music with the happy backbeat.

But to me at least in my mind's eye I sort of had a similar picture of Rock N Roll. To me it was mostly a Pre British Invasion sound. Vocal harmonies, sax riffs, upbeat 4/4 back beat rhythm. We kind of saw a resurgence in the 80s with Huey Lewis and John Cafferty ect.... Happy Days was a big TV hit. What morphed and followed the British Invasion of the 60s I viewed more as Rock... without the Roll.


Edited by CEB (04/10/17 07:41 AM)
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So can a auto Mechanic. " - Stokes Hunt

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#2848296 - 04/10/17 08:05 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9821
Loc: Northern California
CEB, there was another resurgence of pre-Brit sans sax LOL! And that would be The Stray Cats. They did a great job bringing back that very cool vibe of old rock and roll, which reminded me of Sha Na Na when they made the scene! Lots of 50's parties back in the 70's and 80's... cool
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#2848351 - 04/10/17 11:16 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
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There are many tributaries to the river that is broadly rock & roll, but it all streams forth from the fount of the African-American experience which poured from the earth as the Blues. It mixed & mingled with various other influences, notably British/Celtic music brought by the people who settled in Appalachia, as well as Afro-Caribbean musics coming up through New Orleans. Out of the blends have come every truly American music form: jazz, gospel, spirituals, rhythm & blues, funk, country, zydeco, hip-hop, bluegrass, soul, rock & roll, & as many additional sub-genres as one may wish to define.
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#2848367 - 04/10/17 12:23 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
DocPate Offline
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Loc: Virginia
@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.

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#2848412 - 04/10/17 05:07 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 190
Loc: Shenzhen, China
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!

I'm going to Australia this summer, I can watch them there.
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#2848420 - 04/10/17 06:19 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Not only is there plenty of MUSIC you can find and hear, but also plenty BOOKS on the subject. But they too, have varying opinions as to the music's origins and where it went from point A, and it might confuse you a bit, but still good info.

Have fun in Oz. wink
Whitefang
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#2848451 - 04/10/17 10:55 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Dannyalcatraz Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5133
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!

I'm going to Australia this summer, I can watch them there.


Great! If there are any genre or artist exemplars you can think of, ask and we can post some links for your "Summer Homework".
_________________________
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My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2848473 - 04/11/17 04:28 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Another good point is that rock'n'roll is a great "equalizer".

ALL are welcome. Even in JAZZ there were(nd still are I think) some who thought it should be left only for African-Americans to play and listen to. Rock doesn't MAKE that distiction. That everyone from Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, The Beatles, Richie Valens, Eddie Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, Los Lobos and Lenny Kravitz are either already IN and COULD get into the HOF proves how inclusive it is. True rock'n'roll lovers DON'T CARE if the dude playing it is white, black, yellow, brown or WHATEVER. As long as it ROCKS! wink
Whitefang
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#2848476 - 04/11/17 04:51 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
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I don't consider myself racist, but I draw the line at green skinned Martians, or Jolly Green Giants.
BTW, I recently heard that old "Jolly Green Giant" song from the '60s again.... quite funny.

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#2848481 - 04/11/17 05:11 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Eric Iverson]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Well, I'd say if "Harry The Hairy Ape" could become a "rock star", then ANY of us has a shot! grin
Whitefang
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#2848552 - 04/11/17 09:18 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4930
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: DocPate
@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.


I got most of the that particular history lesson from the history timeline at the Country Music Hall of Fame in Nashville, so I'm sticking with that version.
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#2848567 - 04/11/17 09:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
DocPate Offline
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Posts: 606
Loc: Virginia
Suit yourself. But I don't see that on the HOF timeline. And as one who grew up in the coalfields of Appalachia and knowing personally the major players of beginning bluegrass, it didn't derive from the blues.

Now, having said that, and with all due respect, the instrument s of Bluegrass are rooted in the African American people's. The banjo (banjar) was directly descended from Africa and the fiddle was the instrument most often used by slaves for the benefit of slave owners at dances.

So, I can understand how some would say it. But Bill Monroe when he sang "Blue Moon of Kentucky", considered for first Bluegrass song, wasn't thinking about a 12 bar, call and response, blues style.

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#2848575 - 04/11/17 09:57 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
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Loc: Northern California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAVFpThoeb4 <---I think Blue Moon of Kentucky was more of a waltz LOL! Although the story is pretty blue LOL! Until Elvis came along and recorded his second song at Sun Records (side B of That's Alright). The country boys didn't care for his rock and roll version at the Grand Old Opry though LOL! cool
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#2848580 - 04/11/17 10:03 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
DocPate Offline
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Loc: Virginia
+1 Larry. Bluegrass remains somewhat unique in that the style requires no amplification, no percussions and the "high lonesome sound" if the vocals. Newgrass which was an attempt to modify the bluegrass rules quickly was declared non-bluegrass. From that has sprung the term 'Americana'...

But, it ain't Rock and Roll IMHO

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#2848683 - 04/11/17 03:33 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
@Larry:

Heh! "Blue Moon Waltz" instead of "Blue Danube"? Sure. grin

By JOHANN MONROE!

Well, B.B. KING once referred to country music as "White boy blues", and I guess that would include bluegrass too. wink
Whitefang
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#2848697 - 04/11/17 04:46 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9821
Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, Those blue grass boys do some great improvisation. I've heard it referred to as jazz grass!

@ Doc, Their are also some very cool blue grass versions of old rock and roll songs, Beatles, etc. Which I find very cool! I was at my buddies party and he was playing some blue grass for background music at low volume. At first I just thought it was blue grass. Then the lyrics started giving things away and sounding too familiar! I finally realized what the songs really were!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy_CZDtIuz0 <---pretty cool improv once they get wound up and get through the introductions LOL! cool

The offshoot stuff may not win any pure blue grass awards, but I still like it! cool


Edited by Larryz (04/11/17 08:44 PM)
Edit Reason: sp
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#2848805 - 04/12/17 05:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
"Jazz Grass"?

Well then, you GOTTA love THIS>>>> https://youtu.be/WfnnPqtHqYc

Whitefang smile
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#2848830 - 04/12/17 07:26 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9821
Loc: Northern California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJTYpHT9q-Y <----give some of this a listen some night when you have time...or just a couple of minutes right now to check out the first tune! cool

That one you posted, I call Country Improv! It's all good! cool


Edited by Larryz (04/12/17 08:00 AM)
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#2848871 - 04/12/17 09:00 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 606
Loc: Virginia
Back in my days, we did some old folk stuff Bluegrass

In the Pines was also done by Mississippi John Hurt and Leadbelly

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#2849078 - 04/13/17 04:16 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Good clip Larry. grin

Sure, it's more HOW it's played more than the instrumentation I guess.

I once met a guy who told me he heard some guy somwhere on some recording play Jazz BAGPIPES! shocked

And SCOTT I think, did some work with an ensemble called The Kronos String Quartet, who once did a string quartet arrangement of Jimi's "Purple Haze".( correct me if I got the wrong person).
https://youtu.be/4dE65iTuG4Y

That violinist reall gets into it! wink
Whitefang
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I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2849101 - 04/13/17 06:46 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 606
Loc: Virginia
@Larry - That's some good bluegrass. Wish I had a nickel for every time we played Roll In My Sweet Baby's ARms...

There;s some great "newgrass" out there. Steeldriver's is a great newgrass band.

@Fang - You be the judge between "folk" and "Bluegrass".

Leadbelly's version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MkfTYPmLlA

and Bill Monroe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1_pfC-q7T0

and then you have Mississippi John Hurt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blI2dXHyBj0


Edited by DocPate (04/13/17 06:51 AM)

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#2849121 - 04/13/17 07:55 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9821
Loc: Northern California
You've got Scott right Fang! He is involved with doing the sound for some fantastic Kronos string players, who have played live on stage backing up Paul McCartney! Doesn't get much bigger than that!

Now Jazz on bagpipes may be a little hard to take LOL! cool
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#2849180 - 04/13/17 10:43 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4930
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: whitefang
I once met a guy who told me he heard some guy somwhere on some recording play Jazz BAGPIPES! shocked


Rufus Harley. A diatonic instrument which can only play a range of a 9th, against drones which are traditionally halfway between B & Bb. I haven't heard him in a really long time but I want to know what kind of jazz fits into the extreme limitations of that axe. Pipers can turn off the drones, but if Harley could play Giant Steps on the chanter I will shut my skeptical mouth.
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#2849184 - 04/13/17 10:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMOR9Z8oRlw <---OK, got to eat my hat a little...at first I thought she just had one too many and wasn't really going to play that thing! But then again, she does a pretty cool job [no pun] LOL! cool
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#2849191 - 04/13/17 11:23 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Dannyalcatraz Online   content
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I'm more familiar with Gunhild Carling playing her brass off- her bagpipe skillz are a revelation!
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#2849201 - 04/13/17 11:57 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
And SCOTT I think, did some work with an ensemble called The Kronos String Quartet, who once did a string quartet arrangement of Jimi's "Purple Haze".( correct me if I got the wrong person).
https://youtu.be/4dE65iTuG4Y
That violinist reall gets into it! wink
Whitefang


That's a very early version of Purple Haze. It got a whole lot louder & psychedelicized after I took over sound duties for Kronos, which has been about 25 years now.
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#2849331 - 04/14/17 04:30 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
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1st, DOC:
Does seem to be a fine line between "folk" and "Bluegrass" don't it? All a matter of instumentation looks like. And that THIRD clip was another LEADBELLY and NOT John Hurt. But it's all good.

SCOTT: The guy never DID mention a name, and it WAS back in '71 he was telling me about it. But with that ammunition I'll look into it. smile Never heard of Gunhild, but always welcome new info. Thanks Larry.

Here's a sample of Rufus. Appears also to be a multi-instrumentalist.

https://youtu.be/XKA-ZLEUTfo


Whitefang
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#2849388 - 04/14/17 08:44 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Lots of clips of her on YouTube. She's a very talented lady... thu
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#2849427 - 04/14/17 10:33 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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One could be snobbish & say that bagpipes without drones aren't really the real thing, but I have to give it up to Rufus for getting up on stage in a kilt, with a modal wind instrument that you can't articulate notes with breath on, & doing something really unusual, in a genre which is all about deep harmonic complexity.
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#2849438 - 04/14/17 11:35 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
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There are lots of them without drones from many countries, but they are not referred to as a bagpipes (even though they all use a bag and a chanter). Italy it's a Gaghet, Southern India, Serbia, Poland, Hungarian Duda, Macadonian and Galacian Gaita, etc. But they all refer to a player the same way as the bagpipes do, as a Piper...

The "real thing" bagpipes do have a tuning screw which allows the piper to shut off the drones. +1 real bagpipes need at least one drone to sound like a bagpipe...kind of like a drone string on a banjo. Neither really fits in the jazz genre, but I applaud those that try to fit one in LOL! cool
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#2849463 - 04/14/17 01:33 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


Gee, I hadn't even noticed yer loc., JJK.
I'll ask you a few questions abt that in a PM.

As for the vids, I know there are several Chinese equivalents to "Western" Net sites.
Is there a place you can see online videos ?
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#2849464 - 04/14/17 01:37 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: CEB
My wise crack about "If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll" wasn't something I made up. This is something a bandleader I worked for when I was a college student used to say. I paid my way through college playing in a 50s and 60s Pre-British Invasion Rock n Roll review show. Sort of along the lines of Sha Na Na. The bandleader was a Tenor Sax man. He hated the British bands with the slight exception of the Rolling Stones. Blamed them for coming over and putting American bands out of work ...... seriously he said that. Not sure I would want to play that gig now but I sure wished the gold lamé suit still fit. grin But I loved the music. It was fun music with the happy backbeat.

But to me at least in my mind's eye I sort of had a similar picture of Rock N Roll. To me it was mostly a Pre British Invasion sound. Vocal harmonies, sax riffs, upbeat 4/4 back beat rhythm. We kind of saw a resurgence in the 80s with Huey Lewis and John Cafferty ect.... Happy Days was a big TV hit. What morphed and followed the British Invasion of the 60s I viewed more as Rock... without the Roll.


I think we should extrapolate that -----> " all music w/ a sax is R&R " !!
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#2849468 - 04/14/17 02:07 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.


Maybe, b/c, y'know some ppl'll debate anything...but here's how bluergrass connects w/ what Scott said: Most think bluegrass is an outgrowth of Scot-derived mountain music & that's true, although it's also incomplete.
Bluegrass is a deliberate development of the influence of jazz on folk forms.

Originally Posted By: DocPate
... the major players of beginning bluegrass, it didn't derive from the blues.


All due respect (& this comes from one w/ a personal bg not dis-similar to what you cite), there is a definite blues influence on many of the early lights of both C&W & bluegrass music.

Chk the background of A P Carter & Jimmy Rogers, for example, &, more to the 'grass tip, are y'tellin' me y'can't hear the bluesy bend on the word "top" as these cats swing into the refrain each time ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n9prNixjbg


& lest that be considered too modern, here's Bill Monroe hisself at that start of the style.
The opening fiddle chorus, the vocal bends of the words "left" (at :37) & "said" (1:05) [along w/ other spots] all bespeak an influence of blues effects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAVFpThoeb4


Now that doesn't mean that the entire form derived from the blues or that there weren't similar effects in other, earlier forms but it does indicate some influence.

That's one of the main things that many ppl miss when they try drawing distinctions between genres---there's a greater similarity between what seem different musical styles & cultures than most hear (or maybe allow themselves to hear).
It's built into the very physics of music & the effects that certain relative frequencies have on humans.

That's one reason that early field hollers, etc, have a distinct similarity to some musics of Native Americans 9ever hear of a "tumbling strain" ?).
Another reason is that, in the USA, despite attempts to keep ppl divided, there was always a significant interaction, esp between those of lesser economic status.

I again refer to the book I mentioned before, MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.
Y' wanna read a history of music in the USA (& beyond, the world) in the last 100 yrs & that music's effects on societies ?
That's yer tome !
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#2849588 - 04/15/17 04:38 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Any books on music history are full of good stuff, and that one sounds like a "must read".

But, "..In the last 100 yrs..."? That would put us at 1917, and RAGTIME was just slowing down after 22 years of being on "top".

Now, tell ME you don't hear elements of blues or jazz in this stuff! My favorite Ragtime piece, "Maple Leaf Rag" published in 1899.
https://youtu.be/pMAtL7n_-rc

Whitefang








Edited by whitefang (04/15/17 04:40 AM)
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#2849604 - 04/15/17 07:36 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqYJjA4aYXM <---I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932, but then again 5' 2 Has Anybody Seen My Gal, from 1925 takes the cake by Lewis and Young. Then I looked it up on Wiki and it was written in 1914 by Jack Mahoney. This clip has some pretty cool jazzey improv from back in the ragtime days...my version is different as I don't play it just like the record LOL! Cue the Twighlight Zone music...I was just playing it for no particular reason last night, then Fang brings up ragtime this morning??? crazy
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#2849606 - 04/15/17 07:44 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.
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#2849655 - 04/15/17 09:43 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.


There is nothing diversionary in my post and I go where life takes me. A lot of threads segue and go off topic so +1 that would be an impossible task...

Yes, I was talking about "my" oldest song and my material not going back to the caveman banging on a rock to lead up to a rock and roll discussion LOL! I was also following along with ragtime and other music leading in the direction of blues, jazz, etc. For me, and I mean me, it's all about the boogie! But, I'm heavy into improvisation like in the song and video I posted. In jazz, country, swing, rock and roll, blues, American music, etc., the importance of free will and improv cannot be understated IMHO. cool

ps. oh, and improv in bluegrass too!


Edited by Larryz (04/15/17 09:47 AM)
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#2849690 - 04/15/17 11:47 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.


Unless you turn it into "d=salmon", I'd drop it right there.

A couple of years ago I, like you are now, made much noise about the "derailment" of threads. In no time, I was bombarded by other members and Mods alike with such prases as "Mother Hen", "Fluid Dynamic" and "Natural conversational flow". I still TRY from time to time, but quit being so retentive about it. For your peace of mind and digestion, I'd advise you follow suit. And how CAN you make an argument about LANGUAGE being a "fluid" thing and NOT expect that fluid to seep into other areas? wink

I DO sympathize, but you can too quickly relate to Sisyphus in quick order.

@Larry--I'm not sure either what you mean by YOUR "oldest song", but if you mean one that you can remember just knowing and singing to yourself from time to time, then MINE is "Sweet Adeline", a tune my Mom used to sing and hum while doing housework. And it goes back to 1903. Another is "Jeanie With The Light Brown Hair" by Stephan Foster, 1854! Now THERE'S the "Father of American Music" for ya wink

Whitefang PS: My Mom, once a member of her high school's "Robed Choir" and a fine sounding soprano, would comically sing "Sweet Adeline" sometimes at her loudest, and as off key as she could manage to drive me and my brother out of the house on nice days. wink
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#2849693 - 04/15/17 11:58 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
whitefang Offline
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Oh, and LARRY:
When you made your little joke about a caveman beating on a rock, THIS quickly came to my mind--- grin

https://youtu.be/8iVf0pPHvjc

Whitefang




Edited by whitefang (04/15/17 12:00 PM)
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#2849704 - 04/15/17 12:48 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
DocPate Offline
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I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

As far as Rock and roll goes, no doubt it's roots are in blues (both African American and Hillbilly blues). Throw in some jazz influences (boogie Woogie) and some gospel and you have rock and roll. IMHO

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#2849713 - 04/15/17 01:57 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: DocPate
I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

Hmmm...did you mistake "diversion" in my post for "division" ?

Originally Posted By: Larryz
Originally Posted By: d
Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.


There is nothing diversionary in my post and I go where life takes me. A lot of threads segue and go off topic so +1 that would be an impossible task...

Larry, just b/c I mentioned 2 things in the same post doesn't mean they were both abt you but there are some here who seem just to have to post even if it means diverting the point.
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#2849746 - 04/15/17 10:56 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: d

[quote=Larryz][quote=d]Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.



Sorry D, I thought you were aiming at me. I know I have managed to be guilty of getting sidetracked on several occasions LOL! This time I thought I was on point... crazy


Edited by Larryz (04/15/17 10:57 PM)
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#2849749 - 04/15/17 11:11 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang

@Larry--I'm not sure either what you mean by YOUR "oldest song", but if you mean one that you can remember just knowing and singing to yourself from time to time, then MINE is "Sweet Adeline", a tune my Mom used to sing and hum while doing housework. And it goes back to 1903. Another is "Jeanie With The Light Brown Hair" by Stephan Foster, 1854! Now THERE'S the "Father of American Music" for ya wink

Whitefang PS: My Mom, once a member of her high school's "Robed Choir" and a fine sounding soprano, would comically sing "Sweet Adeline" sometimes at her loudest, and as off key as she could manage to drive me and my brother out of the house on nice days. wink


I LOVE LUCY did a great off-key job on Sweet Adeline!

When I say my oldest song, I'm talking about my material (as explained above). Many of the songs Elvis picked on, re-arranged and made hits of, go back to the rhythm and blues and country tunes from '45 to 55'. A ton of people think Since I Fell for You by Lenny Welch ('63) was and old tune but it goes back to '45. That was [MY] oldest song until I started picking on Summertime which dates back to 1932. I'm always searching for new material and I find myself finding it, in the old stuff. Scotch and Soda by the Kingston Trio was out in the 60's but that song history goes back to 1932 as well. No one knows who the real original artist was (a piano player in a back street bar) wrote it out on a napkin for one of the Trios parents while they were on their honeymoon (so the story goes). So, 1932 was the date of my oldest song(s) in [MY] song list, till you started talking ragtime. Then I found the info on 5'2 that used to be on my list from 1925 being written in 1914...so if it gets put back on [MY] list, it will take the honor of being [MY] oldest song...I hope this explains it for you and D, as I don't know how else to say it...but, I tried!!! thu
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#2849752 - 04/15/17 11:27 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
Oh, and LARRY:
When you made your little joke about a caveman beating on a rock, THIS quickly came to my mind--- grin

https://youtu.be/8iVf0pPHvjc

Whitefang




So, Your caveman blew on a cow horn and mine banged on the rocks and logs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aVwGhzx7e4 <---In any event, this is what it evolved to in rock and roll LOL! and for CEB, @ 0:54, it has a sax lead! cool


Edited by Larryz (04/15/17 11:30 PM)
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#2849770 - 04/16/17 05:30 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

Hmmm...did you mistake "diversion" in my post for "division" ?



YAHWOL, mein Commandant! grin Ist Die fehler! wink

@Larry. OK. Gotcha now. wink

So I guess the oldest song in MY bag would be "Big Rock Candy Mountain"( '28) or "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" ('27) which I learned off of Bob Dylan's 1962 debut album, but I was 14 at the time( '65), and the liner notes DID say it was an old Blind Lemon Jefferson tune. smile

It IS kinda funny, and leaves ya feeling a bit sheepish when you discover some song you know and like, and thought where and WHEN you first heard and learned it goes back further than you originally thought. Like that guy I told y'all about who told me HE thought Chuck Berry "screwed up" that BEATLES tune! ("Roll Over Beethoven") Or how I know folks, like my nephew's wife, who thought "At Last" was an Etta James ORIGINAL, and was surprised to learn it was written by Harry Warren and Mack Gordon for the 1941 movie "Sun Valley Serenade". She picked the song to be her and my nephew's "Bridal Dance" song at their wedding. wink

Warren and Al Durbin also wrote "I Only Have Eyes For You" in 1934 for the movie "Dames" and THE MOONGLOWS made famous in 1959! smile

What does any of this have to do with rock'n'roll? Well, it proves the versitality of the genre. With little effort and an open minded immagination, you could make ANY tune a rock song. And I suppose, vice-versa. MUZAK certainly proved THAT. wink
Whitefang
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#2849784 - 04/16/17 07:39 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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It has come up before on the forum that the old AM radio rock and roll stations played a ton of songs that were really not rock and roll. Mack The Knife is an example (which is a song I really grew up liking). Along with some country, blues, jazz standard tunes, pop, etc. Us kids (always liked my aunts using that expression when they talked about the old days) got introduced to a lot of variety in music when trying to listen to our rock and roll. These days I refer to my material as being versatile...hopefully I'll play something for everyone in the audience when I play solo. [MY] newest song is from 1995 LOL! thu
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#2849832 - 04/16/17 12:48 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Interestingly, when I first became aware of pop music, via Top 40 radio, was around 1960, when I was 8. In LA radio, at that time, Elvis was considered an Oldie But Goodie, not really current, but Chuck's tunes were still being played, as current records. So I was a little too late to the party to have Elvis as an influence, but Chuck, being a guitarist especially, was very much a part of my music formation.
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#2849953 - 04/17/17 04:53 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
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I also some time ago, started a discussion on the many ways the word "rock" and term "rock star" was(and still IS) being used.

Celebrity chef ANN BURRELL wrote a book titled, "Cook Like A Rock Star!". Which really didn't have ANYTHING to do with how actual Rock Stars cooked. Or other uses of the word, as in, "Man, he really ROCKS that shirt!" and such.

So, "Rock" is not only the label of a music genre, it's also become both a verb AND an adjective. wink

So now, anyone who's at the top of their particular field is sometimes referred to as a "Rock Star", and anyone who does ANYTHING particularily well is known to "Rock" it. Which to me indicates that the MUSIC the term is borrowed from is something special. wink
Whitefang
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#2850369 - 04/19/17 04:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
whitefang Offline
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I hope, after all this, that JuJu takes away some insight as to what rock'n'roll is. There's only one other example that I can add that may or may not help.....

I was watching the movie "LA BAMBA" yesterday, the first time in many years. There was a part in the movie in which Ritchie Valens said that for the "B" side of "Donna" he wanted to do "La Bamba". His manager/producer tried to nix the idea by saying, "It isn't rock'n'roll." To which Ritchie answered, "It is the way I play it!" That might help explain things a bit, I'm not sure, but another way...

Rock'n'roll is but another vehichle in which a song can ride.

Classical would be the limousine, Jazz would be a sport car, and rock'n'roll would be the "MUSCLE CAR"! wink
Whitefang
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#2850403 - 04/19/17 08:01 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I think La Bamba lead The Beatles to Twist and Shout...it's fun to run these two songs together as a rock and roll medley! cool
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#2850559 - 04/20/17 04:52 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Now you're getting back into history. "La Bamba" is an old Mexican folk tune that was long in the "public domain" by the time Valens did his thing with it. And probably because it WAS in the public domain is probably why the guys who got writing credits for the Isley Brother's cover of "Twist and Shout"( yeah, it was a cover) in '62 didn't have the same hassel George Harrison did with "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine".

My wife( born in '41) and her older sister( and their Dad) told me they'd hear "La Bamba" played at Mexican weddings and other parties when they were growing up. smile It was usually one of the first songs any "ese" who picked up a guitar learned. wink
Whitefang
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#2850585 - 04/20/17 07:28 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__dnb9nop8 <---here's the movie version. Los Lobos is the band doing La Bamba and as the story goes Ritchie got the idea listening to an old Mexico band. At the end of the clip, you'll see Los Lobos on the acoustics. They do acoustic sets of the old Mexico music and one of these days I have to go see them live! If you watch closely you'll see a shot of Brian Setzer who played Eddie Cochran doing Summertime Blues in the movie...The Twist and Shout song was originally recorded by The Top Notes in '61, so the Isley Brothers version in '62 was as you say, a cover if you want to get historical!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgVWot_xrxE <---here's the Beatles doing their cover of Twist and Shout...they did a lot of covers BTW in their early days. You can hear the similarities and I think the Beatles version of T&S was born in old Mexico as well... cool


Edited by Larryz (04/20/17 11:09 AM)
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#2850774 - 04/21/17 05:25 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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You don't have to really look that "closely" to notice Setzer as Eddie Cochran in that movie. And I'd say it's another good example of "perfect casting". wink

But the point of my bringing both the movie and the song "La Bamba" up WASN'T to examine the history of the song. It was the the incident of Valens telling his manager that it IS rock'n'roll, "The way I play it." that was. JuJu wanted to know, "What is rock and roll?" And I thought it might help. But then, we here in the U S of A have become so accustomed to it that it's almost as hard to define as "What is LOVE?" But we DID give it a good try, and didn't resort to quoting Louis Armstrong who, when asked, "What is jazz?" answered, "If you have to ask, you'll NEVER know. " wink
Whitefang
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#2850791 - 04/21/17 06:46 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
JuJu Kwan Offline
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The U of Hawaii has an online course called The Evolution of American Popular Music. I have enough to worry about with my current class schedule, but may try to take it sometime in the future.

Thanks for all the help, my head is spinning.


Edited by JuJu Kwan (04/21/17 07:06 AM)
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#2850795 - 04/21/17 07:42 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Larryz Offline
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@ Fang, That one line in the movie sums up my philosophy perfectly. Ritchie took a song out of old Mexico and made it his own...+1 The casting of Brian Setzer to do Summertime Blues was also perfect as he not only has the look, he could play it and sing it just like the original. Both concepts of doing your own thing and/or playing it like the original, are part of rock and roll history. Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it! In the case of rock and roll, I look forward to repeating it LOL! cool

@ JuJu, just think of your head spinning like a 45rpm record and you'll find plenty of rock and roll history on them. Hope we didn't throw too many curves at you! I hope you do get to that Evolution of American Popular Music. Sounds like a real fun course! cool
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#2850954 - 04/22/17 04:16 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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The "Evolution of American Popular Music"?

That ALONE will make your head spin, let alone the history of rock'n'roll! grin

+1 on sounding like a fun course. PLEASE feel free to post any info you get from it! smile
Whitefang
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#2850965 - 04/22/17 06:11 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
JuJu Kwan Offline
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UH has a class on the History of Rock and Roll, but they don't offer it online.
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#2851112 - 04/22/17 08:35 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Delta Online   content
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JuJu, I've been listening to R&R for 50 years and still love it. This may sound simplistic but Wikipedia has a decent definition and condensed history of the genre. Use it as a template, listen to the music and form your own opinion of what R&R is.

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#2851161 - 04/23/17 05:10 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Delta]
whitefang Offline
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freak
OW! Delta.....

50 YEARS?

At THAT point, many of us here had been listening to it for 10+!
crazy

Remember....50 years ago was the "Summer of love". cool
Whitefang
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#2851440 - 04/24/17 10:24 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
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This all reminds me of what Louis Armstrong said when asked to define jazz: "Lady, if you have to ask, you'll never know!"
And John Mayall once said: "I won't define blues... blues is coathanger!"
Can we define classical music? Well the borders have become more blurry over the years - I'm sure Scott could tells us about THAT....

Define ROCK?? Maybe, "it's got a good beat and you can dance to it," if you remember Dick Clark and teenagers rating records.
Of course, Strauss waltzes have a good beat and you can dance to them......

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#2851619 - 04/25/17 05:02 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Eric Iverson]
whitefang Offline
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crazy

Yeah. So do POLKAS! grin

Funny thing about that too. Back when I was a kid and The Dovells song "The Bristol Stomp" was all over the radio, my Grandmother( we're Polish) remarked something about it sounding somewhat like a Polka. We all laughed of course, but when, at her house, my brother put his 45 of it on her record player, our Grandparents DID the Polka to it in the middle of their living room! shocked

So....It's got a "GOOD BEAT", Dick? Hmph! A "good beat" for WHAT? grin
Whitefang (Did'ja see my thread about ya Eric?)


Edited by whitefang (04/25/17 05:04 AM)
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#2852025 - 04/26/17 11:15 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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I agree with Dicks Clark's American Bandstand reviews...R&R has to have a good beat and be easy to dance to LOL! I usually up tempo songs for dancing gigs but I remember one Beatle tune This Boy, that I slowed down a little. My bass player being a just like the record kind of guy didn't care for my slower version "as it's too hard to dance to when played slower". So, I threw my guitar cord out front and started dancing to it while playing it just to show him it's a nice fit (if you know how to dance LOL!)... cool
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#2852160 - 04/27/17 05:29 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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????

Slow DOWN "This Boy"?

Wasn't it SLOW ENOUGH already? wink
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#2852207 - 04/27/17 09:03 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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Yeah, your right, my version is up-tempo using a jazzy like 2strum chord changes. It's not all that much faster. It's been so long since the gig I was talking about I forgot that I went faster instead of slower...

Anyway, I just went into my music room and picked up my acoustic and played it to find out LOL! It's not like the slow original and has a different vibe. The bass player was wrong though, it was/is exceptionally easy to dance to and has a good beat! Not that the Beatles didn't do a great job...I just like my version better! facepalm


Edited by Larryz (04/27/17 09:03 AM)
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#2852371 - 04/28/17 05:13 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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Well, when you consider that with a song to "slow dance" to can't really be TOO slow( as we really weren't that concerned with the DANCING then anyway wink ) Then I guess what you did was OK too. smile
Whitefang
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#2852395 - 04/28/17 06:59 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
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I read somewhere that French classical composer Maurice Ravel was upset at a performance of his famous Bolero (you've all heard it, doubtless) and said, "the Bolero is a dance, but it is a SLOW dance".........
Re: dancing - that was never a particular interest of mine, just something to do to make the girl I was with happy. My wife told me once, "How come you have good rhythm in your HANDS but not in your FEET??"
So I guess I'm not a candidate for ballet star of the year! Maybe I just have heard the right dance music...........

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#2852404 - 04/28/17 07:46 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Eric Iverson]
d Offline
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FWIW & BTW, if ya gotta go to Uversity to learn abt the what's what fer hysteria O' pop music ya' ain't been alive long have ya ?
Least not dur'n' last 1/2 C.
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#2852405 - 04/28/17 07:47 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Eric Iverson]
Larryz Offline
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It's a ton of fun when our dance band shows up and we rock the house. The whole dance floor is filled up with everyone dancing and having a great time! "It has to have a good beat and be easy to dance to", is true for both fast and slow tunes. You need about 3 slow tunes and 9 fast tunes per set and each set should build on the fun factor with the song choices. When playing solo, it's mostly a listening affair. So you can sit down and play 5 slow and 5 fast tunes and/or the in between tunes LOL! I don't really care to dance anymore but I still enjoy listening to live music... cool


Edited by Larryz (04/28/17 07:48 AM)
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#2852539 - 04/29/17 04:44 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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ERIC:

The Bolero IS actually a style of dance as well as music. So Ravel had a reason to complain.

And actually, I've always found his "Bolero" a kind of a bore, but HAVE heard various recordings and was at a few performances of it and have to agree it does come off better at a slower tempo.

As far as dancing goes, I usually looked like ST. VITUS on the dancefloor grin so I never bothered with going to many dances when young, but slow dancing didn't seem to be a problem, and of course in MY house(as a kid) you HAD to learn to Polka. So....
Whitefang
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#2852583 - 04/29/17 08:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
And actually, I've always found his "Bolero" a kind of a bore, but HAVE heard various recordings and was at a few performances of it and have to agree it does come off better at a slower tempo.
Whitefang


At the time it came on the scene it was an incredibly radical departure from the classical mainstream. That sort of repetition was some 40-45 years before Phillip Glass made it his signature. Ravel's own personal score indicates a tempo of 76, which is crossed out & replaced with 66, so he favored a slower tempo as well. It's his most well known & well loved piece, but he was not much enamored of it apparently.
Check out Pink Martini's version.
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#2852593 - 04/29/17 09:23 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
d Offline
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Doesn't the actual tempo of "Bolero" accelerate as the piece progresses ?
Or does it just get busier ?
I'll have to recheck that....
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#2852604 - 04/29/17 09:59 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Doesn't the actual tempo of "Bolero" accelerate as the piece progresses ?
Or does it just get busier ?
I'll have to recheck that....


The orchestration fills out & the dynamics are a constant crescendo throughout but the tempo remains the same.
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#2852694 - 04/30/17 04:35 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
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As "well loved" as it appears to be, I more prefer his Daphnis et Chloe.

But that's how it goes with some of those guys. Like, "The Nutcracker" and it's suite is Tchaikovsky's most "well loved" work, but he too, really didn't care that much for IT. It was a commissioned work, and he did it to hurry up and get out of the obligation. So he claimed. wink

I suppose there are a few(or more) rock'n'roll recordings out there that the band or artist did without much effort or care in order to fullfill the contracted "sides" they were required to do so they could move on to a different label with possibly a better contract. But, the PUBLIC might have wound up liking them so much that we're not AWARE of the artist NOT liking it that much too.
Whitefang
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#2852745 - 04/30/17 09:17 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsxzBCr2zNM <---when I think of Rock and how it relates to Classical, I think of the Tans-Siberian Orchestra. They can handle the tempo changes extremely well. I sat in the audience and watched their show live and it was fantastic! Everyone should experience their show at least once...but sit near the aisle and an exit as there is a ton of pyrotechnics going off LOL! The lazier light show is also incredible... cool
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#2852764 - 04/30/17 11:30 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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FWIW & BTW, I think the Trans Siberian Express is over.
Leader Paul O'Neill died abt 3 weeks ago.

Tying up recent trail here, there's this...

Bolero take 1


bolero take 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laXXXJ_1dHQ


...which should effectively bring us back to the topic at hand.
What is R&R ?
One answer might be remaking the musical landscape for a modern age/edge.
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#2852872 - 05/01/17 04:20 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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I think maybe the question asked by OP JuJu attempted to discover what qualities DEFINE what R&R is.

Like, maybe you hear a song and then proclaim, "THAT'S a good ROCK and ROLL tune!" And he wants to know WHAT about that tune MAKES it a Rock'n'Roll song, and NOT just a simple "pop" tune?

Instrumentation? Tempo? Construction? Volume? Subject matter?

WHAT?
Whitefang
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#2852901 - 05/01/17 07:17 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
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RIP Paul O'Neill. Sorry to hear this sad news. It looks like the Trans-Siberian Orchestra's last tour date was Nov 2016. I am so glad I got to see them live...they bridged the gap between Rock and Classical and they were magical. Their Christmas shows were always sold out every year...
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#2852906 - 05/01/17 07:52 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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To step around the blockage of those who just wanna chatter abt stuff they don't really address.

What is R&R ?
The answer might be remaking the musical landscape for a modern age/edge. That addresses all qualities by empirical definement.

The Beatles open their 1st USA tour with a defining tribute
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GpZNlfvPQY


Then 5 yrs later come back so John Lennon can reforge the music of his youth ("Stand By Me", etc) into music for the more modern age.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCtzkaL2t_Y
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#2853041 - 05/01/17 07:16 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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https://www.britannica.com/art/rock-and-roll-early-style-of-rock-music <---here you go JuJu, this guy concurs with my historical rendition. I know you will pursue the history of rock and roll well beyond Jeff Beck's Bolero that nobody cared to chatter about or wanted to step around...Looks like Elvis is still numero Uno [no debate intended] LOL!...My TSO contribution is another example of how rock and roll just morphed into rock (which was your original concern)...There is a ton of stuff in the R&R HOF, (including Rap that is not my cup of tea, but you can't read that on the latest Rap thread, as we can't give our opinion on that genre even though videos are being posted for our comments). Rap does not qualify in the R&R HOF IMHO, even though many people love and admire the art...

You did not read this here LOL! Hopefully since this is not an endless amount of YouTube clips that another likes to post ad nauseam, each of which you can't call up in China, you will be able to call up my link and see why my comments are +1! cool


Edited by Larryz (05/01/17 07:31 PM)
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#2853094 - 05/02/17 04:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
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That "remaking the musical landscape" statement would actually fit ALL genres of music. Not just rock'n'roll, as ALL, rock, jazz, classical etc., are constantly changing, growing and otherwise evolving.

As for RAP, I'm not sure it would exist today if rock'n'roll never did. After R&R kicked open the gate, it never got closed again, so ANYTHING was able to get to the people's ears. wink
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#2853104 - 05/02/17 05:28 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Winston Psmith Offline
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Originally Posted By: whitefang
That "remaking the musical landscape" statement would actually fit ALL genres of music. Not just rock'n'roll, as ALL, rock, jazz, classical etc., are constantly changing, growing and otherwise evolving.

As for RAP, I'm not sure it would exist today if rock'n'roll never did. After R&R kicked open the gate, it never got closed again, so ANYTHING was able to get to the people's ears. wink
Whitefang


IMHO, Rap is the lineal descendant of a cappella Doo-Wop music, admittedly, without the emphasis on vocal harmonies. Nonetheless, like Doo-Wop, Rap can be performed by a vocalist, or vocalists, without instrumental accompaniment, and both are the product of urban environments. Not saying they're the same thing, by any means, but they're certainly related, however distantly.

As an Electronic Musician, I have to give much respect to the early Rappers, for diving deep into Sampling, Looping and Beat Programming. The Akai MPC was their studio tool of choice . . .
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#2853149 - 05/02/17 08:41 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out.


JuJu's question isn't really about What Is Rock and Roll? it's more about what isn't. Two examples she gave of what isn't R&R are Rap and Folk...

For Rap and Folk, I would refer people back to Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues. This is a tune played on all rock and roll stations that introduced Rap to the world IMHO. I'm sure there were countless talking tunes before that song came out, but it was Rap IMHO. We just didn't have a name for it LOL! I think Rap works best with music behind it. You can hear it in Mexican music, Country Music, East Indian, etc., all over the world as it really caught on...+1 Rock and Roll got many genres to let their hair down and violate the musical rules and probably opened the doors for Rap too! cool
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#2853155 - 05/02/17 09:14 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
JuJu Kwan Offline
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Thanks everyone, once again, for the response to my question. When I came here I thought that Rock and Roll was basically The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. I maybe able answer my own question. As a female I was quickly drawn to Bonnie Raitt when I arrived in the USA. I think her music encompasses R&R, Blues, Folk, Country, Pop, and maybe a little Jazz.


Edited by JuJu Kwan (05/02/17 11:05 AM)
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#2853158 - 05/02/17 09:22 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Larryz Offline
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+1 on Bonnie Raitt...she's one of the greats IMHO and a R&R Hall of Famer! cool
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#2853194 - 05/02/17 11:18 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larryz
https://www.britannica.com/art/rock-and-roll-early-style-of-rock-music <---here you go JuJu, this guy concurs with my historical rendition. I know you will pursue the history of rock and roll well beyond Jeff Beck's Bolero that nobody cared to chatter about or wanted to step around...


Once again, yer, I dunno, paranoia or whatever, is taking you onto yerself comments that are abt another [maybe you should watch with whom you associate yerself idk ]
As for the other stuff you posted, that's getting kinda on yer own shoes, esp tying in other threads 'n'all that [see how I tied in R'n'R there ?]



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#2853196 - 05/02/17 11:27 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Thanks everyone, once again, for the response to my question. When I came here I thought that Rock and Roll was basically The Beatles and The Rolling Stones. I maybe able answer my own question. As a female I was quickly drawn to Bonnie Raitt when I arrived in the USA. I think her music encompasses R&R, Blues, Folk, Country, Pop, and maybe a little Jazz.


That's right...................... b/c rock & roll's a spirit, not an attitude nor a style nor a drumbeat nor any other quantifiable quality.
It's the spirit of youth or newness overtaking what's old.
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#2853246 - 05/02/17 02:12 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Bottom End]
d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bottom End
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out.
As far as the R&R HOF is concerned, whatever gets you to pay the admission fee to view the exhibits, and encourages you to buy a bunch of RRHOF branded merchandise, that's Rock & Roll.

Maybe but more like proprganda than complete truth

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#2853252 - 05/02/17 02:29 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: Larryz
https://www.britannica.com/art/rock-and-roll-early-style-of-rock-music <---here you go JuJu, this guy concurs with my historical rendition. I know you will pursue the history of rock and roll well beyond Jeff Beck's Bolero that nobody cared to chatter about or wanted to step around...


Once again, yer, I dunno, paranoia or whatever, is taking you onto yerself comments that are abt another [maybe you should watch with whom you associate yerself idk ]
As for the other stuff you posted, that's getting kinda on yer own shoes, esp tying in other threads 'n'all that [see how I tied in R'n'R there ?]



Yes there was a bit of a tie in to your Rap thread D, which I credited, there is also a bit of a Elvis vs Chuck hint in there too (just to get your attention LOL!) One of the things I was wanting to get across to you on JuJu's thread was that she has said in the past she can't access YouTube in China, so for her, the YT clips don't help. The other thing about this and other threads that you and I want to draw us back to the OP (which is a good thing!) But, that isn't the concern here IMHO. It's not "What is R&R?" so much as it is a topic on Rap, Folk and other genres that don't sound like R&R, getting into the HOF.

When I make a comment and you follow it up with wanting to "get around the blockage" on the next post, I felt it was directed to my ability to go OT LOL! For which I am truly guilty now and then, but then again, we all are guilty of that now and then. It's really not paranoia...I was following up on others when it came to Classical music in the discussion. One of my points that can be seen in the link to the article I posted, was that rock and roll just dropped the roll and it all became known (i.e. morphed) simply as Rock...and anything goes like Bolero and TSO for instance... cool


Edited by Larryz (05/02/17 02:41 PM)
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#2853261 - 05/02/17 02:52 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Naw, yer just draggin' crap from one place to another b/c y' seem to have a chip on yer shoulder, which is starting to look more'n'more [R'R rolleyes ] like someone y'don't wanna be.
We're all worse for it.

AS said in a PM, ya don't seem to have any idea that comments are abt anyone but you. hitt
That's not my prob.





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#2853265 - 05/02/17 03:11 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9821
Loc: Northern California
I remember you quoting me D, and then another sentence under it that was supposed to be directed at some one else. That's the only reason I thought you were aiming it at me. This time your post with regard to the "blockage to step around" right after my post lead me in that same direction. It is not a reoccurring theme. There is no chip on my shoulder and to quote Popeye "I am what I am and that's all that I am"...but I appreciate your PM where we can hash things out and not involve the forum anytime you wish... cool
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#2853267 - 05/02/17 03:24 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5859
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Yeah, but y'took it as a comment on you even though there was clear content that referred to someone else.
TYhen ya hadda drag it into things that were personal.
facepalm

How small's yer world ?

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#2853287 - 05/02/17 05:54 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Here's a 101 on what's what re: R&R

Ain't an attitude but a spirit

Ain't a sound
Thia isn't R&R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLzn8nDVSo8


Thia is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_JrO5urMHo


It's not a song
This ain't R&R


This is


It's not an artist
This is not R&R


This is


It's not a drumbeat
This is not R&R


But this, couterintuitively, IS


It's not a style
This is not R&R


This is



It's not an electric gtr
This ain't R&R



This is


It's a spirit.
Ya got it & get it or ya don't.
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#2853344 - 05/03/17 05:05 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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As we're ALL entitled to our OWN opinions, we have to both expect AND accept that others will likely disagree with them.

Like I do with most of your "proclamations" over each of your clips in yet ANOTHER plethora of YT clips you somehow feel "say it all".

I tried to warn you(and based on personal experience) that complaining about threads getting "derailed" and wandering off in many directions is an excersize in futility. I tried that a lot before and got so much "backlash" that I wound up getting "Whiplash"! grin So I scaled it back to near elimination.

It helps to realize that while in some areas, some here might have more KNOWLEDGE about some particular things, NObody here has more AUTHORITY than anyone else. Except maybe the moderators. wink
Whitefang
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#2853384 - 05/03/17 08:37 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9821
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: d
Yeah, but y'took it as a comment on you even though there was clear content that referred to someone else.
TYhen ya hadda drag it into things that were personal.
facepalm

How small's yer world ?



Not small enough and that's a good thing as JuJu can't call up all those videos in China to see what your answers are...it's nice to have some freedom to do so over here in my little world. I don't recall anything I said getting personal, but you can PM me at anytime so we can get off of this thread, or at least I can...my apologies to JuJu as I don't want to be a part of disrupting this thread any further. cool


Edited by Larryz (05/03/17 09:00 AM)
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#2853406 - 05/03/17 11:52 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4930
Loc: Los Angeles
I just read an interesting interview with Marc Ribot wherein he states that rock brought the blues back to what had become a very glossy, fake, Broadway-based version of popular music in the 50's.
It's probably overly simplistic as a description, but it's also a very useful starting point. Having lived through that period I know exactly what Ribot means, & I'm afraid Juju won't, but perhaps listening to some Bobby Darin might give Juju a sense of what rock was rebelling against.
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#2853492 - 05/04/17 04:21 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Eric Iverson Offline
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Registered: 08/03/05
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Rock music has ALWAYS been about rebellion..... sometimes for good reason (such as fake glossy entertainment) and sometimes just adolescent macho or whatever, the "rebel without a cause" syndrome.
I'm almost 64 (McCartney doubtless wrote that song about ME... LOL) and I still rebel against pronouncements from on high that make no sense... but have come to realize that some of the things that I don't understand, it's because the other person knows more than I do....
So how does this relate to music? Just that neither rebellion or obedience to musical norms should be mindless.. don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, to quote the cliche.

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#2853493 - 05/04/17 04:23 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
harvey Offline
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Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 1193
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Scott Fraser
I just read an interesting interview with Marc Ribot wherein he states that rock brought the blues back to what had become a very glossy, fake, Broadway-based version of popular music in the 50's.
It's probably overly simplistic as a description, but it's also a very useful starting point. Having lived through that period I know exactly what Ribot means, & I'm afraid Juju won't, but perhaps listening to some Bobby Darin might give Juju a sense of what rock was rebelling against.


[/quote]

Winston Psmith;

IMHO, Rap is the lineal descendant of a cappella Doo-Wop music, admittedly, without the emphasis on vocal harmonies. Nonetheless, like Doo-Wop, Rap can be performed by a vocalist, or vocalists, without instrumental accompaniment, and both are the product of urban environments. Not saying they're the same thing, by any means, but they're certainly related, however distantly.

As an Electronic Musician, I have to give much respect to the early Rappers, for diving deep into Sampling, Looping and Beat Programming. The Akai MPC was their studio tool of choice . . . [/quote]

Both very astute comments!

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#2853500 - 05/04/17 05:19 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: harvey]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I usually always saw rock'n'roll as a "rebellion" against the LIMITATIONS put on popular music by those who had what they felt was ultimate authority. You know, label suits who thought THEY had to SHOW youth what they SHOULD listen to and NOT provide what they WANTED.

This sounds simplistic too, but the movie "Back To The Future" kind of drove the point home when main character Marty McFly lands in 1955 and passes a record shop with a speaker pouring out "The #1 HIT" MR. SANDMAN by The Chordettes. But it did make a point. Popular music and what America's youth were listening to BEFORE rock'n'roll caught their ears WAS pretty much homogenized, milquetoast and "whitebread". The big music "stars" young people of the day followed were PATTI PAGE, PERRY COMO and the like. And the only African-America artists that were acceptable to WHITE America anyway, were NAT "KING" COLE and The Ink Spots.

Sure, many "Doo-Wop" groups and R&B singers existed at the time, but their output was limited to exposure on radio stations that mostly just catered to "their kind" with music suits and parents prohibiting any "Jungle Jive" from reaching their children's ears. Something HAD to give, and rock'n'roll paved that road. In her song about those times, "In France They Kiss On Mainstreet" Joni Mitchell sings, "In the war of independence rock'n'roll rang sweet as victory."

RAP and a connect with a cappella Doo-Wop? Yeah, I can see that. And that Doo-Wop IS one of rock'n'roll's ingredients, and I always did claim that Rap wouldn't be where it got to if NOT for rock'n'roll paving the way, so it's all OK. I do have to say however, that while it isn't my "cuppa", I have always admired rappers' abilty to do what they do with the SPEED with which they do it. Personally, whenever I try to talk faster than my normal rate, I wind up sounding like PORKY PIG! grin So, I give them "props". wink
Whitefang
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#2853723 - 05/05/17 09:06 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5859
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Yeah, everybody IS entitled to their OPINIONS & their own STYLE.
Or LACK thereof.
rolleyes freak
However SOME opinions are BETTER conceived & SUPPORTED than others.
The ya got THEM that just wanna CHATTER ON without SAY'N' anything they didn't read, uh, SOMEWHERE.
-------------------------------------
This is a well-written, well-produced, well-performed song but, well, it's not R&R

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6gI9LEyQIE



This is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkGUt4QYc08


& This Is Where That Performance likely derived it's inspiration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jgHOcXTr50


Now this leads us to an interesting point.
R&R largely derives from R&R but there's also a great deal of, largely unrecognized, jazz in there, as well as gospel.
in one way R&R is a type of jazz but w/ the facile subtleties deliberately blunted into a more angular sound.
How can R&R be a type of gospel jazz ?

Dig !
You can tell it's R&R b/c there's a sax !
There's also a surprise intro---don't miss it !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81cyUwnM71U
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#2853859 - 05/06/17 05:37 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
"R&R largely derives from R&R"?

I'm guessing you hit the wrong key. wink Meaning to state, "R&R largely derived from R&B". But we got what you meant anyway.

But also realize.....

What IS or ISN'T rock'n'roll isn't for ANY ONE PERSON to postulate. Except maybe to hold as a PERSONAL belief. And I'd say The Bee Gee's "To Love Somebody" deserves r'n'r status as much as Ritchie Valens' "Donna" or Presley's "Are You Lonesome Tonight". Not ALL rock'n'roll tunes have to be "full speed" and frenetic. Or LOUD as far as that goes. That would leave out 90% of Roy Orbison if that were true! wink
Whitefang
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#2853866 - 05/06/17 08:19 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4930
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: whitefang
I'm guessing you hit the wrong key. wink Meaning to state, "R&R largely derived from R&B". But we got what you meant anyway.
Whitefang


Which all ultimately leads back to the blues.
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#2853874 - 05/06/17 09:48 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5859
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
That's some spiralin' DNA helix yer referring to there, Scott !
& it's also a great concept abt the circular circulatin' nature of music !
...goes in here, round & round, & comes out here...

It also leads back to the fact (& it IS a FACK, Jack) that Professor Fred McDowell's "who's never get it" theory still holds true: some just don't/can't, mebbe.

This is the aftermaath of a R&R party

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Np5hkvW6I


Guess what ?
So's THIS !

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2853859/Re_What_is_Rock_Roll#Post285389
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#2853887 - 05/06/17 10:35 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5859
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
One thing abt R&R is riding trends...

Thia is R&R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqdW97P-Q8A


This is not
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlA-z0du1Pg


Don't ride R&R into the ground.
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#2853940 - 05/06/17 05:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
This professor Fred McDowell you keep mentioning....

Is he the Fred McDowell who was the research scientist of the Dept. of Geological sciences at the University of Texas?

Or the Fred McDowell who was a professor of British and American literature at the University of Iowa?

'Cause when I google "Professor Fred McDowell" that's the only two "professors" I come up with.

Unless you're referring to "Mississippi" Fred McDowell, which then of course brings us back to the blues.

WHY do you keep refusing to QUALIFY this?
Whitefang
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#2854071 - 05/07/17 12:31 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
"Who's NEVER get IT ?"

Well, tha don't apply to Lloyd Price
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN1y73BqNUk


Even this cat got it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPoiv0sZ4s4
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#2854166 - 05/08/17 04:24 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Still evading, eh? wink

Whitefang
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#2854187 - 05/08/17 07:24 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
"who's NEVER get IT ?"

This is R&R

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVHrvx-Ua68


& This is R&R, too.
In fact it's too R&R !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gZtmBZuNMc
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#2854522 - 05/10/17 04:45 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
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Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Y'know, I do know some who'd disagree with your use of those clips. But in response to THEM, I'd have to quote BILLY JOEL( who turned 68 yesterday, but I didn't get a chance to mention because my PC had a sudden attack of "PCPMS" wink )

Back to the Joel quote:

"Hot Funk, cool Punk, Even if it's old junk, it's still rock'n'roll to me" (he also mentions "Next phase, new wave, Dance craze" ). It's like I told the nephew who said he "didn't like" rock'n'roll. I told him that whatever it is he DOES like( which I call "canned beats in Autotune sauce") might never have come about if NOT for rock'n'roll, but he doesn't want to hear it.
Whitefang


Edited by whitefang (05/10/17 04:45 AM)
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#2855446 - 05/15/17 04:55 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5859
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
SOME try to EXPRESS in WORDS what is BEST EXPRESSED via MUSIC.
THAT'S the MAGIC of MUSIC...but y'know "WHO'S never get IT?"....get it ?


This is R&R

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2nqZCSnN1U


BTW & FWIW
Despite the powerful bassline & Denny Dogherty's fervent vox, this isn't R&R

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-aK6JnyFmk


However, this is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqDGTT2OtsQ
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#2855465 - 05/15/17 06:36 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9461
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
IYHO, right? wink
Whitefang
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#2856741 - 05/22/17 03:57 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
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Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
N fact......who's never get it still gotta blather.
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