Music Player Network Home Guitar Player Magazine Keyboard Magazine Bass Player Magazine EQ Magazine
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2848111 - 04/09/17 10:29 AM What is Rock&Roll?
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 134
Loc: Wuhan, China
Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out.
_________________________






Top
GP Island
#2848132 - 04/09/17 11:46 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
If one thing is clear from all the various discussions in this forum, whether over the years since I've been here and just recently.....

There doesn't seem to be ONE clear definition that's achieved a consensus. Hell, we can't even come to an agreement as to when it actually BEGAN, let alone just what it IS. But one thing does stand out and most of us agree on is that Rock'n'Roll is a constant growing and "shape-shifting" entity that seems to follow one basic yet flexible rule:

Keep it moving and moving those who play and listen. Like the old "Bandstand" joke; "It's got a good beat and you can dance to it, so I'll give it an 85 Dick." But there's one thing you can try....

Listen to some of the music that was considered rock'n'roll back when it's believed to have begun( commercially, that's agreed to be around 1955) and then progress over the years and see how anything newer stacks up against the earlier stuff. That may or may not help, but....

You mentioned "folk" up there in your query. Now, personally, I wouldn't consider it to be in the rock'n'roll envelope, but when a "folk" type tune was played with accompanyment of electric guitar, bass and drums, it got called "Folk-ROCK". And I do understand your confusion, as far as some of the inductees go. For example, you also mentioned RAP. And there's many who DON'T consider it to be rock'n'roll, but when the genre began, it WAS radically different from what was considered "mainstream" and "socially acceptable"(meaning the OLD folks didn't like it), so my guess would be that RAP fits in the HOF because it TOO was radically different when it came about, and I've always contended that there probably wouldn't BE any Rap, Hip-Hop and the like if it WASN'T for rock'n'roll busting the chains and flinging the musical gates wide open.

I hope SOME of this helps, but maybe I confused you a bit more. If I did, I apologize and it wasn't my intent.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2848133 - 04/09/17 11:53 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Bottom End Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 2223
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out.
As far as the R&R HOF is concerned, whatever gets you to pay the admission fee to view the exhibits, and encourages you to buy a bunch of RRHOF branded merchandise, that's Rock & Roll.
_________________________
"Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, yet you cannot play upon me.'-Hamlet

Guitar solos last 30 seconds, the bass line lasts for the whole song.


Top
#2848137 - 04/09/17 12:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
JuJu, I think the hey day(s) for rock and roll was from about '55 through '65 and from that point on a lot of music was called rock and roll that was later just called rock...or you could start including country rock, alt rock, acid rock, metal, heavy metal, pop rock, classic rock, 50's rock, even disco and the list goes on and on. I don't consider Rap or Folk as rock and roll and yet that music gets incorporated as well into R&R Hall of Fame music and inductees. What you consider as your rock and roll is what is important. +1 the R&R Hall of Fame includes tons of non-rock and rollers. The old music had a rock measure followed by a roll measure if things get too technical LOL! cool

Top
#2848142 - 04/09/17 12:36 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5451
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
[This was typed while BottomEnd & Larry were typing.]


If y'wanna get strit on defining R&R y'd haveta stop sometime in late 1950s, then switch over to "rock" abt mid-60s & so on.

I'd say what defines itself as R&R is the R&B-derived music that grew from the intermixing of music styles in mid 20th C. + the musics that followed.
That said, one can find older examples back as far as Charley Patton & maybe Beethoven & Tchaikovsky, whose 1812 Overture sounds like the Who to me.

Lotsa modern country music, starting early 1970s, sounds just like classic rock. Many ppl dislike hip-hop but let's be honest that's basically a cultural prejudice; if y' listen to Public Enemy, sounds very like James Brown, & , sorry, one can't mount a true & successful argument that JB wasn't one rockin' cat.

It's esp problematic when ppl try edging out stuff simply b/c they may not like it.
I know a woman who says women can't do rock music.
Some think only metal is true modern rock.

When ya try to put up a fence to corral art, it seldom works.

Tell me which of these ain't rock music ?
Why'd you think so ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR2gR6SZC2M

Sure sounds like Chuck Berry licks to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7cL9yJ41gA

Issat C&W ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UjvdZm-Tu8

It's The Beatles. How can it not be rock ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

Using the same techniques as that Beatle track to achieve the sound of James Brown to underline the lyrix = Don't believe the hype !

James Dickenson pretending to be Jim Morrison singin' a Dylan song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LFnXgsOVDU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-TVrR8wZc


Actually the thing abt modern rock & roll music is best explained by the book MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.
It's basically the story of an infectiousness that gradually overtakes & (slowly but Shirley) unifies ppl during the 20th C.




Edited by d (04/09/17 12:46 PM)
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2848149 - 04/09/17 12:50 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
See what I mean about lack of consensus?

But there's a lot of truth in the last two posts:

d's statement about putting up a fence to corral art not working is true for ALL art forms. R&R especially. That made good sense.

And LARRY's one sentence, "What you consider as your rock and roll is what is important" couldn't be TRUER.
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2848154 - 04/09/17 01:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
CEB Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 12087
If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.

Top
#2848164 - 04/09/17 01:44 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 4949
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Did your head bob or bang? Did your ass boogie? Did you feel an adrenaline rush?

Odds are good it was some form of Rock & Roll.





(Or you've been mixing stimulants and hallucinogens again...)
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2848165 - 04/09/17 01:48 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5451
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: CEB
If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.


w00t


Note how in some shots the drummer's LH stick seems to be flickin' outta Richard's mouth like a snake's tongue.
Debbil music indeed !

PianoBanana
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2848166 - 04/09/17 01:56 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 4949
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: CEB
If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.


You sound like a man who'd enjoy the work of the late Mark Sandman's band, Morphine.


And- despite having a harmonica instead of a sax- his prior band, Treat Her Right.
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2848204 - 04/09/17 05:59 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 134
Loc: Wuhan, China
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.
_________________________






Top
#2848210 - 04/09/17 06:15 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I don't know how much exposure you've had since then, but I envy you your discovery. Those "first exposures" are when it's the most fun! smile
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2848225 - 04/09/17 07:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
I'm glad you got to come over JuJu and take some of that good old rock and roll back home with you! The Beatles are a great band to learn it from! cool

Top
#2848233 - 04/09/17 09:30 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 4949
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2848268 - 04/10/17 05:41 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 596
Loc: Virginia
Etta James recorded a song "Roll with me Henry - The Wallflower".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shpLJJ_ku0M

which was preceded by Hank Ballard's Work with me Henry.

Top
#2848287 - 04/10/17 07:33 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
CEB Offline
10k Club

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 12087
My wise crack about "If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll" wasn't something I made up. This is something a bandleader I worked for when I was a college student used to say. I paid my way through college playing in a 50s and 60s Pre-British Invasion Rock n Roll review show. Sort of along the lines of Sha Na Na. The bandleader was a Tenor Sax man. He hated the British bands with the slight exception of the Rolling Stones. Blamed them for coming over and putting American bands out of work ...... seriously he said that. Not sure I would want to play that gig now but I sure wished the gold lamé suit still fit. grin But I loved the music. It was fun music with the happy backbeat.

But to me at least in my mind's eye I sort of had a similar picture of Rock N Roll. To me it was mostly a Pre British Invasion sound. Vocal harmonies, sax riffs, upbeat 4/4 back beat rhythm. We kind of saw a resurgence in the 80s with Huey Lewis and John Cafferty ect.... Happy Days was a big TV hit. What morphed and followed the British Invasion of the 60s I viewed more as Rock... without the Roll.


Edited by CEB (04/10/17 07:41 AM)

Top
#2848296 - 04/10/17 08:05 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
CEB, there was another resurgence of pre-Brit sans sax LOL! And that would be The Stray Cats. They did a great job bringing back that very cool vibe of old rock and roll, which reminded me of Sha Na Na when they made the scene! Lots of 50's parties back in the 70's and 80's... cool

Top
#2848351 - 04/10/17 11:16 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4805
Loc: Los Angeles
There are many tributaries to the river that is broadly rock & roll, but it all streams forth from the fount of the African-American experience which poured from the earth as the Blues. It mixed & mingled with various other influences, notably British/Celtic music brought by the people who settled in Appalachia, as well as Afro-Caribbean musics coming up through New Orleans. Out of the blends have come every truly American music form: jazz, gospel, spirituals, rhythm & blues, funk, country, zydeco, hip-hop, bluegrass, soul, rock & roll, & as many additional sub-genres as one may wish to define.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2848367 - 04/10/17 12:23 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 596
Loc: Virginia
@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.

Top
#2848412 - 04/10/17 05:07 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 134
Loc: Wuhan, China
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!

I'm going to Australia this summer, I can watch them there.
_________________________






Top
#2848420 - 04/10/17 06:19 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Not only is there plenty of MUSIC you can find and hear, but also plenty BOOKS on the subject. But they too, have varying opinions as to the music's origins and where it went from point A, and it might confuse you a bit, but still good info.

Have fun in Oz. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2848451 - 04/10/17 10:55 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 4949
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!

I'm going to Australia this summer, I can watch them there.


Great! If there are any genre or artist exemplars you can think of, ask and we can post some links for your "Summer Homework".
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2848473 - 04/11/17 04:28 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Another good point is that rock'n'roll is a great "equalizer".

ALL are welcome. Even in JAZZ there were(nd still are I think) some who thought it should be left only for African-Americans to play and listen to. Rock doesn't MAKE that distiction. That everyone from Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, The Beatles, Richie Valens, Eddie Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, Los Lobos and Lenny Kravitz are either already IN and COULD get into the HOF proves how inclusive it is. True rock'n'roll lovers DON'T CARE if the dude playing it is white, black, yellow, brown or WHATEVER. As long as it ROCKS! wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2848476 - 04/11/17 04:51 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 5162
Loc: Jackson Heights, NY
I don't consider myself racist, but I draw the line at green skinned Martians, or Jolly Green Giants.
BTW, I recently heard that old "Jolly Green Giant" song from the '60s again.... quite funny.

Top
#2848481 - 04/11/17 05:11 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Eric Iverson]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Well, I'd say if "Harry The Hairy Ape" could become a "rock star", then ANY of us has a shot! grin
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2848552 - 04/11/17 09:18 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
Scott Fraser Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4805
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: DocPate
@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.


I got most of the that particular history lesson from the history timeline at the Country Music Hall of Fame in Nashville, so I'm sticking with that version.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2848567 - 04/11/17 09:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 596
Loc: Virginia
Suit yourself. But I don't see that on the HOF timeline. And as one who grew up in the coalfields of Appalachia and knowing personally the major players of beginning bluegrass, it didn't derive from the blues.

Now, having said that, and with all due respect, the instrument s of Bluegrass are rooted in the African American people's. The banjo (banjar) was directly descended from Africa and the fiddle was the instrument most often used by slaves for the benefit of slave owners at dances.

So, I can understand how some would say it. But Bill Monroe when he sang "Blue Moon of Kentucky", considered for first Bluegrass song, wasn't thinking about a 12 bar, call and response, blues style.

Top
#2848575 - 04/11/17 09:57 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAVFpThoeb4 <---I think Blue Moon of Kentucky was more of a waltz LOL! Although the story is pretty blue LOL! Until Elvis came along and recorded his second song at Sun Records (side B of That's Alright). The country boys didn't care for his rock and roll version at the Grand Old Opry though LOL! cool

Top
#2848580 - 04/11/17 10:03 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 596
Loc: Virginia
+1 Larry. Bluegrass remains somewhat unique in that the style requires no amplification, no percussions and the "high lonesome sound" if the vocals. Newgrass which was an attempt to modify the bluegrass rules quickly was declared non-bluegrass. From that has sprung the term 'Americana'...

But, it ain't Rock and Roll IMHO

Top
#2848683 - 04/11/17 03:33 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
@Larry:

Heh! "Blue Moon Waltz" instead of "Blue Danube"? Sure. grin

By JOHANN MONROE!

Well, B.B. KING once referred to country music as "White boy blues", and I guess that would include bluegrass too. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2848697 - 04/11/17 04:46 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, Those blue grass boys do some great improvisation. I've heard it referred to as jazz grass!

@ Doc, Their are also some very cool blue grass versions of old rock and roll songs, Beatles, etc. Which I find very cool! I was at my buddies party and he was playing some blue grass for background music at low volume. At first I just thought it was blue grass. Then the lyrics started giving things away and sounding too familiar! I finally realized what the songs really were!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy_CZDtIuz0 <---pretty cool improv once they get wound up and get through the introductions LOL! cool

The offshoot stuff may not win any pure blue grass awards, but I still like it! cool


Edited by Larryz (04/11/17 08:44 PM)
Edit Reason: sp

Top
#2848805 - 04/12/17 05:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
"Jazz Grass"?

Well then, you GOTTA love THIS>>>> https://youtu.be/WfnnPqtHqYc

Whitefang smile
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2848830 - 04/12/17 07:26 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJTYpHT9q-Y <----give some of this a listen some night when you have time...or just a couple of minutes right now to check out the first tune! cool

That one you posted, I call Country Improv! It's all good! cool


Edited by Larryz (04/12/17 08:00 AM)

Top
#2848871 - 04/12/17 09:00 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 596
Loc: Virginia
Back in my days, we did some old folk stuff Bluegrass

In the Pines was also done by Mississippi John Hurt and Leadbelly

Top
#2849078 - 04/13/17 04:16 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Good clip Larry. grin

Sure, it's more HOW it's played more than the instrumentation I guess.

I once met a guy who told me he heard some guy somwhere on some recording play Jazz BAGPIPES! shocked

And SCOTT I think, did some work with an ensemble called The Kronos String Quartet, who once did a string quartet arrangement of Jimi's "Purple Haze".( correct me if I got the wrong person).
https://youtu.be/4dE65iTuG4Y

That violinist reall gets into it! wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2849101 - 04/13/17 06:46 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 596
Loc: Virginia
@Larry - That's some good bluegrass. Wish I had a nickel for every time we played Roll In My Sweet Baby's ARms...

There;s some great "newgrass" out there. Steeldriver's is a great newgrass band.

@Fang - You be the judge between "folk" and "Bluegrass".

Leadbelly's version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MkfTYPmLlA

and Bill Monroe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1_pfC-q7T0

and then you have Mississippi John Hurt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blI2dXHyBj0


Edited by DocPate (04/13/17 06:51 AM)

Top
#2849121 - 04/13/17 07:55 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
You've got Scott right Fang! He is involved with doing the sound for some fantastic Kronos string players, who have played live on stage backing up Paul McCartney! Doesn't get much bigger than that!

Now Jazz on bagpipes may be a little hard to take LOL! cool

Top
#2849180 - 04/13/17 10:43 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4805
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: whitefang
I once met a guy who told me he heard some guy somwhere on some recording play Jazz BAGPIPES! shocked


Rufus Harley. A diatonic instrument which can only play a range of a 9th, against drones which are traditionally halfway between B & Bb. I haven't heard him in a really long time but I want to know what kind of jazz fits into the extreme limitations of that axe. Pipers can turn off the drones, but if Harley could play Giant Steps on the chanter I will shut my skeptical mouth.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2849184 - 04/13/17 10:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMOR9Z8oRlw <---OK, got to eat my hat a little...at first I thought she just had one too many and wasn't really going to play that thing! But then again, she does a pretty cool job [no pun] LOL! cool

Top
#2849191 - 04/13/17 11:23 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 4949
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
I'm more familiar with Gunhild Carling playing her brass off- her bagpipe skillz are a revelation!
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

Top
#2849201 - 04/13/17 11:57 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Scott Fraser Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4805
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: whitefang
And SCOTT I think, did some work with an ensemble called The Kronos String Quartet, who once did a string quartet arrangement of Jimi's "Purple Haze".( correct me if I got the wrong person).
https://youtu.be/4dE65iTuG4Y
That violinist reall gets into it! wink
Whitefang


That's a very early version of Purple Haze. It got a whole lot louder & psychedelicized after I took over sound duties for Kronos, which has been about 25 years now.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2849331 - 04/14/17 04:30 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
1st, DOC:
Does seem to be a fine line between "folk" and "Bluegrass" don't it? All a matter of instumentation looks like. And that THIRD clip was another LEADBELLY and NOT John Hurt. But it's all good.

SCOTT: The guy never DID mention a name, and it WAS back in '71 he was telling me about it. But with that ammunition I'll look into it. smile Never heard of Gunhild, but always welcome new info. Thanks Larry.

Here's a sample of Rufus. Appears also to be a multi-instrumentalist.

https://youtu.be/XKA-ZLEUTfo


Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2849388 - 04/14/17 08:44 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
Lots of clips of her on YouTube. She's a very talented lady... thu

Top
#2849427 - 04/14/17 10:33 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4805
Loc: Los Angeles
One could be snobbish & say that bagpipes without drones aren't really the real thing, but I have to give it up to Rufus for getting up on stage in a kilt, with a modal wind instrument that you can't articulate notes with breath on, & doing something really unusual, in a genre which is all about deep harmonic complexity.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2849438 - 04/14/17 11:35 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
There are lots of them without drones from many countries, but they are not referred to as a bagpipes (even though they all use a bag and a chanter). Italy it's a Gaghet, Southern India, Serbia, Poland, Hungarian Duda, Macadonian and Galacian Gaita, etc. But they all refer to a player the same way as the bagpipes do, as a Piper...

The "real thing" bagpipes do have a tuning screw which allows the piper to shut off the drones. +1 real bagpipes need at least one drone to sound like a bagpipe...kind of like a drone string on a banjo. Neither really fits in the jazz genre, but I applaud those that try to fit one in LOL! cool

Top
#2849463 - 04/14/17 01:33 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5451
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


Gee, I hadn't even noticed yer loc., JJK.
I'll ask you a few questions abt that in a PM.

As for the vids, I know there are several Chinese equivalents to "Western" Net sites.
Is there a place you can see online videos ?
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2849464 - 04/14/17 01:37 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5451
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: CEB
My wise crack about "If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll" wasn't something I made up. This is something a bandleader I worked for when I was a college student used to say. I paid my way through college playing in a 50s and 60s Pre-British Invasion Rock n Roll review show. Sort of along the lines of Sha Na Na. The bandleader was a Tenor Sax man. He hated the British bands with the slight exception of the Rolling Stones. Blamed them for coming over and putting American bands out of work ...... seriously he said that. Not sure I would want to play that gig now but I sure wished the gold lamé suit still fit. grin But I loved the music. It was fun music with the happy backbeat.

But to me at least in my mind's eye I sort of had a similar picture of Rock N Roll. To me it was mostly a Pre British Invasion sound. Vocal harmonies, sax riffs, upbeat 4/4 back beat rhythm. We kind of saw a resurgence in the 80s with Huey Lewis and John Cafferty ect.... Happy Days was a big TV hit. What morphed and followed the British Invasion of the 60s I viewed more as Rock... without the Roll.


I think we should extrapolate that -----> " all music w/ a sax is R&R " !!
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2849468 - 04/14/17 02:07 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5451
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.


Maybe, b/c, y'know some ppl'll debate anything...but here's how bluergrass connects w/ what Scott said: Most think bluegrass is an outgrowth of Scot-derived mountain music & that's true, although it's also incomplete.
Bluegrass is a deliberate development of the influence of jazz on folk forms.

Originally Posted By: DocPate
... the major players of beginning bluegrass, it didn't derive from the blues.


All due respect (& this comes from one w/ a personal bg not dis-similar to what you cite), there is a definite blues influence on many of the early lights of both C&W & bluegrass music.

Chk the background of A P Carter & Jimmy Rogers, for example, &, more to the 'grass tip, are y'tellin' me y'can't hear the bluesy bend on the word "top" as these cats swing into the refrain each time ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n9prNixjbg


& lest that be considered too modern, here's Bill Monroe hisself at that start of the style.
The opening fiddle chorus, the vocal bends of the words "left" (at :37) & "said" (1:05) [along w/ other spots] all bespeak an influence of blues effects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAVFpThoeb4


Now that doesn't mean that the entire form derived from the blues or that there weren't similar effects in other, earlier forms but it does indicate some influence.

That's one of the main things that many ppl miss when they try drawing distinctions between genres---there's a greater similarity between what seem different musical styles & cultures than most hear (or maybe allow themselves to hear).
It's built into the very physics of music & the effects that certain relative frequencies have on humans.

That's one reason that early field hollers, etc, have a distinct similarity to some musics of Native Americans 9ever hear of a "tumbling strain" ?).
Another reason is that, in the USA, despite attempts to keep ppl divided, there was always a significant interaction, esp between those of lesser economic status.

I again refer to the book I mentioned before, MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.
Y' wanna read a history of music in the USA (& beyond, the world) in the last 100 yrs & that music's effects on societies ?
That's yer tome !
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2849588 - 04/15/17 04:38 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Any books on music history are full of good stuff, and that one sounds like a "must read".

But, "..In the last 100 yrs..."? That would put us at 1917, and RAGTIME was just slowing down after 22 years of being on "top".

Now, tell ME you don't hear elements of blues or jazz in this stuff! My favorite Ragtime piece, "Maple Leaf Rag" published in 1899.
https://youtu.be/pMAtL7n_-rc

Whitefang








Edited by whitefang (04/15/17 04:40 AM)
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2849604 - 04/15/17 07:36 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqYJjA4aYXM <---I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932, but then again 5' 2 Has Anybody Seen My Gal, from 1925 takes the cake by Lewis and Young. Then I looked it up on Wiki and it was written in 1914 by Jack Mahoney. This clip has some pretty cool jazzey improv from back in the ragtime days...my version is different as I don't play it just like the record LOL! Cue the Twighlight Zone music...I was just playing it for no particular reason last night, then Fang brings up ragtime this morning??? crazy

Top
#2849606 - 04/15/17 07:44 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5451
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2849655 - 04/15/17 09:43 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: d
Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.


There is nothing diversionary in my post and I go where life takes me. A lot of threads segue and go off topic so +1 that would be an impossible task...

Yes, I was talking about "my" oldest song and my material not going back to the caveman banging on a rock to lead up to a rock and roll discussion LOL! I was also following along with ragtime and other music leading in the direction of blues, jazz, etc. For me, and I mean me, it's all about the boogie! But, I'm heavy into improvisation like in the song and video I posted. In jazz, country, swing, rock and roll, blues, American music, etc., the importance of free will and improv cannot be understated IMHO. cool

ps. oh, and improv in bluegrass too!


Edited by Larryz (04/15/17 09:47 AM)

Top
#2849690 - 04/15/17 11:47 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: d
FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.


Unless you turn it into "d=salmon", I'd drop it right there.

A couple of years ago I, like you are now, made much noise about the "derailment" of threads. In no time, I was bombarded by other members and Mods alike with such prases as "Mother Hen", "Fluid Dynamic" and "Natural conversational flow". I still TRY from time to time, but quit being so retentive about it. For your peace of mind and digestion, I'd advise you follow suit. And how CAN you make an argument about LANGUAGE being a "fluid" thing and NOT expect that fluid to seep into other areas? wink

I DO sympathize, but you can too quickly relate to Sisyphus in quick order.

@Larry--I'm not sure either what you mean by YOUR "oldest song", but if you mean one that you can remember just knowing and singing to yourself from time to time, then MINE is "Sweet Adeline", a tune my Mom used to sing and hum while doing housework. And it goes back to 1903. Another is "Jeanie With The Light Brown Hair" by Stephan Foster, 1854! Now THERE'S the "Father of American Music" for ya wink

Whitefang PS: My Mom, once a member of her high school's "Robed Choir" and a fine sounding soprano, would comically sing "Sweet Adeline" sometimes at her loudest, and as off key as she could manage to drive me and my brother out of the house on nice days. wink
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2849693 - 04/15/17 11:58 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Oh, and LARRY:
When you made your little joke about a caveman beating on a rock, THIS quickly came to my mind--- grin

https://youtu.be/8iVf0pPHvjc

Whitefang




Edited by whitefang (04/15/17 12:00 PM)
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2849704 - 04/15/17 12:48 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 596
Loc: Virginia
I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

As far as Rock and roll goes, no doubt it's roots are in blues (both African American and Hillbilly blues). Throw in some jazz influences (boogie Woogie) and some gospel and you have rock and roll. IMHO

Top
#2849713 - 04/15/17 01:57 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
d Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5451
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

Hmmm...did you mistake "diversion" in my post for "division" ?

Originally Posted By: Larryz
Originally Posted By: d
Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.


There is nothing diversionary in my post and I go where life takes me. A lot of threads segue and go off topic so +1 that would be an impossible task...

Larry, just b/c I mentioned 2 things in the same post doesn't mean they were both abt you but there are some here who seem just to have to post even if it means diverting the point.
_________________________
d=halfnote

Top
#2849746 - 04/15/17 10:56 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: d

[quote=Larryz][quote=d]Larry, what do y'mean by "I thought my oldest song was Summertime 1932"...oldest song in yer repertoire or something else.

FWIW, while it's an almost impossible task with continual crosstalk, I wish anyone interested in actual discussion of points in threads resist the diversionary posts that crop up.



Sorry D, I thought you were aiming at me. I know I have managed to be guilty of getting sidetracked on several occasions LOL! This time I thought I was on point... crazy


Edited by Larryz (04/15/17 10:57 PM)

Top
#2849749 - 04/15/17 11:11 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: whitefang

@Larry--I'm not sure either what you mean by YOUR "oldest song", but if you mean one that you can remember just knowing and singing to yourself from time to time, then MINE is "Sweet Adeline", a tune my Mom used to sing and hum while doing housework. And it goes back to 1903. Another is "Jeanie With The Light Brown Hair" by Stephan Foster, 1854! Now THERE'S the "Father of American Music" for ya wink

Whitefang PS: My Mom, once a member of her high school's "Robed Choir" and a fine sounding soprano, would comically sing "Sweet Adeline" sometimes at her loudest, and as off key as she could manage to drive me and my brother out of the house on nice days. wink


I LOVE LUCY did a great off-key job on Sweet Adeline!

When I say my oldest song, I'm talking about my material (as explained above). Many of the songs Elvis picked on, re-arranged and made hits of, go back to the rhythm and blues and country tunes from '45 to 55'. A ton of people think Since I Fell for You by Lenny Welch ('63) was and old tune but it goes back to '45. That was [MY] oldest song until I started picking on Summertime which dates back to 1932. I'm always searching for new material and I find myself finding it, in the old stuff. Scotch and Soda by the Kingston Trio was out in the 60's but that song history goes back to 1932 as well. No one knows who the real original artist was (a piano player in a back street bar) wrote it out on a napkin for one of the Trios parents while they were on their honeymoon (so the story goes). So, 1932 was the date of my oldest song(s) in [MY] song list, till you started talking ragtime. Then I found the info on 5'2 that used to be on my list from 1925 being written in 1914...so if it gets put back on [MY] list, it will take the honor of being [MY] oldest song...I hope this explains it for you and D, as I don't know how else to say it...but, I tried!!! thu

Top
#2849752 - 04/15/17 11:27 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: whitefang
Oh, and LARRY:
When you made your little joke about a caveman beating on a rock, THIS quickly came to my mind--- grin

https://youtu.be/8iVf0pPHvjc

Whitefang




So, Your caveman blew on a cow horn and mine banged on the rocks and logs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aVwGhzx7e4 <---In any event, this is what it evolved to in rock and roll LOL! and for CEB, @ 0:54, it has a sax lead! cool


Edited by Larryz (04/15/17 11:30 PM)

Top
#2849770 - 04/16/17 05:30 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Originally Posted By: d
Originally Posted By: DocPate
I don't see anything division art here. Just great discussion which I thought was the purpose of a forum.

Hmmm...did you mistake "diversion" in my post for "division" ?



YAHWOL, mein Commandant! grin Ist Die fehler! wink

@Larry. OK. Gotcha now. wink

So I guess the oldest song in MY bag would be "Big Rock Candy Mountain"( '28) or "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" ('27) which I learned off of Bob Dylan's 1962 debut album, but I was 14 at the time( '65), and the liner notes DID say it was an old Blind Lemon Jefferson tune. smile

It IS kinda funny, and leaves ya feeling a bit sheepish when you discover some song you know and like, and thought where and WHEN you first heard and learned it goes back further than you originally thought. Like that guy I told y'all about who told me HE thought Chuck Berry "screwed up" that BEATLES tune! ("Roll Over Beethoven") Or how I know folks, like my nephew's wife, who thought "At Last" was an Etta James ORIGINAL, and was surprised to learn it was written by Harry Warren and Mack Gordon for the 1941 movie "Sun Valley Serenade". She picked the song to be her and my nephew's "Bridal Dance" song at their wedding. wink

Warren and Al Durbin also wrote "I Only Have Eyes For You" in 1934 for the movie "Dames" and THE MOONGLOWS made famous in 1959! smile

What does any of this have to do with rock'n'roll? Well, it proves the versitality of the genre. With little effort and an open minded immagination, you could make ANY tune a rock song. And I suppose, vice-versa. MUZAK certainly proved THAT. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2849784 - 04/16/17 07:39 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
It has come up before on the forum that the old AM radio rock and roll stations played a ton of songs that were really not rock and roll. Mack The Knife is an example (which is a song I really grew up liking). Along with some country, blues, jazz standard tunes, pop, etc. Us kids (always liked my aunts using that expression when they talked about the old days) got introduced to a lot of variety in music when trying to listen to our rock and roll. These days I refer to my material as being versatile...hopefully I'll play something for everyone in the audience when I play solo. [MY] newest song is from 1995 LOL! thu

Top
#2849832 - 04/16/17 12:48 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 4805
Loc: Los Angeles
Interestingly, when I first became aware of pop music, via Top 40 radio, was around 1960, when I was 8. In LA radio, at that time, Elvis was considered an Oldie But Goodie, not really current, but Chuck's tunes were still being played, as current records. So I was a little too late to the party to have Elvis as an influence, but Chuck, being a guitarist especially, was very much a part of my music formation.
_________________________
Scott Fraser

Top
#2849953 - 04/17/17 04:53 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I also some time ago, started a discussion on the many ways the word "rock" and term "rock star" was(and still IS) being used.

Celebrity chef ANN BURRELL wrote a book titled, "Cook Like A Rock Star!". Which really didn't have ANYTHING to do with how actual Rock Stars cooked. Or other uses of the word, as in, "Man, he really ROCKS that shirt!" and such.

So, "Rock" is not only the label of a music genre, it's also become both a verb AND an adjective. wink

So now, anyone who's at the top of their particular field is sometimes referred to as a "Rock Star", and anyone who does ANYTHING particularily well is known to "Rock" it. Which to me indicates that the MUSIC the term is borrowed from is something special. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2850369 - 04/19/17 04:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I hope, after all this, that JuJu takes away some insight as to what rock'n'roll is. There's only one other example that I can add that may or may not help.....

I was watching the movie "LA BAMBA" yesterday, the first time in many years. There was a part in the movie in which Ritchie Valens said that for the "B" side of "Donna" he wanted to do "La Bamba". His manager/producer tried to nix the idea by saying, "It isn't rock'n'roll." To which Ritchie answered, "It is the way I play it!" That might help explain things a bit, I'm not sure, but another way...

Rock'n'roll is but another vehichle in which a song can ride.

Classical would be the limousine, Jazz would be a sport car, and rock'n'roll would be the "MUSCLE CAR"! wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2850403 - 04/19/17 08:01 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
I think La Bamba lead The Beatles to Twist and Shout...it's fun to run these two songs together as a rock and roll medley! cool

Top
#2850559 - 04/20/17 04:52 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Now you're getting back into history. "La Bamba" is an old Mexican folk tune that was long in the "public domain" by the time Valens did his thing with it. And probably because it WAS in the public domain is probably why the guys who got writing credits for the Isley Brother's cover of "Twist and Shout"( yeah, it was a cover) in '62 didn't have the same hassel George Harrison did with "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine".

My wife( born in '41) and her older sister( and their Dad) told me they'd hear "La Bamba" played at Mexican weddings and other parties when they were growing up. smile It was usually one of the first songs any "ese" who picked up a guitar learned. wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2850585 - 04/20/17 07:28 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u__dnb9nop8 <---here's the movie version. Los Lobos is the band doing La Bamba and as the story goes Ritchie got the idea listening to an old Mexico band. At the end of the clip, you'll see Los Lobos on the acoustics. They do acoustic sets of the old Mexico music and one of these days I have to go see them live! If you watch closely you'll see a shot of Brian Setzer who played Eddie Cochran doing Summertime Blues in the movie...The Twist and Shout song was originally recorded by The Top Notes in '61, so the Isley Brothers version in '62 was as you say, a cover if you want to get historical!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgVWot_xrxE <---here's the Beatles doing their cover of Twist and Shout...they did a lot of covers BTW in their early days. You can hear the similarities and I think the Beatles version of T&S was born in old Mexico as well... cool


Edited by Larryz (04/20/17 11:09 AM)

Top
#2850774 - 04/21/17 05:25 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
You don't have to really look that "closely" to notice Setzer as Eddie Cochran in that movie. And I'd say it's another good example of "perfect casting". wink

But the point of my bringing both the movie and the song "La Bamba" up WASN'T to examine the history of the song. It was the the incident of Valens telling his manager that it IS rock'n'roll, "The way I play it." that was. JuJu wanted to know, "What is rock and roll?" And I thought it might help. But then, we here in the U S of A have become so accustomed to it that it's almost as hard to define as "What is LOVE?" But we DID give it a good try, and didn't resort to quoting Louis Armstrong who, when asked, "What is jazz?" answered, "If you have to ask, you'll NEVER know. " wink
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2850791 - 04/21/17 06:46 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 134
Loc: Wuhan, China
The U of Hawaii has an online course called The Evolution of American Popular Music. I have enough to worry about with my current class schedule, but may try to take it sometime in the future.

Thanks for all the help, my head is spinning.


Edited by JuJu Kwan (04/21/17 07:06 AM)
_________________________






Top
#2850795 - 04/21/17 07:42 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Larryz Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9360
Loc: Northern California
@ Fang, That one line in the movie sums up my philosophy perfectly. Ritchie took a song out of old Mexico and made it his own...+1 The casting of Brian Setzer to do Summertime Blues was also perfect as he not only has the look, he could play it and sing it just like the original. Both concepts of doing your own thing and/or playing it like the original, are part of rock and roll history. Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it! In the case of rock and roll, I look forward to repeating it LOL! cool

@ JuJu, just think of your head spinning like a 45rpm record and you'll find plenty of rock and roll history on them. Hope we didn't throw too many curves at you! I hope you do get to that Evolution of American Popular Music. Sounds like a real fun course! cool

Top
#2850954 - 04/22/17 04:16 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
The "Evolution of American Popular Music"?

That ALONE will make your head spin, let alone the history of rock'n'roll! grin

+1 on sounding like a fun course. PLEASE feel free to post any info you get from it! smile
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2850965 - 04/22/17 06:11 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
JuJu Kwan Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 134
Loc: Wuhan, China
UH has a class on the History of Rock and Roll, but they don't offer it online.
_________________________






Top
#2851112 - 04/22/17 08:35 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Delta Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 188
Loc: Rescue, Ca.
JuJu, I've been listening to R&R for 50 years and still love it. This may sound simplistic but Wikipedia has a decent definition and condensed history of the genre. Use it as a template, listen to the music and form your own opinion of what R&R is.

Top
#2851161 - Yesterday at 05:10 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Delta]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9043
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
freak
OW! Delta.....

50 YEARS?

At THAT point, many of us here had been listening to it for 10+!
crazy

Remember....50 years ago was the "Summer of love". cool
Whitefang
_________________________
I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

Top
#2851440 - Today at 10:24 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 5162
Loc: Jackson Heights, NY
This all reminds me of what Louis Armstrong said when asked to define jazz: "Lady, if you have to ask, you'll never know!"
And John Mayall once said: "I won't define blues... blues is coathanger!"
Can we define classical music? Well the borders have become more blurry over the years - I'm sure Scott could tells us about THAT....

Define ROCK?? Maybe, "it's got a good beat and you can dance to it," if you remember Dick Clark and teenagers rating records.
Of course, Strauss waltzes have a good beat and you can dance to them......

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  A String, Bluesape, myles_rose