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#2848111 - 04/09/17 10:29 AM What is Rock&Roll?
JuJu Kwan Online   content
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Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 189
Loc: Shenzhen, China
Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out.
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#2848132 - 04/09/17 11:46 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9453
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
If one thing is clear from all the various discussions in this forum, whether over the years since I've been here and just recently.....

There doesn't seem to be ONE clear definition that's achieved a consensus. Hell, we can't even come to an agreement as to when it actually BEGAN, let alone just what it IS. But one thing does stand out and most of us agree on is that Rock'n'Roll is a constant growing and "shape-shifting" entity that seems to follow one basic yet flexible rule:

Keep it moving and moving those who play and listen. Like the old "Bandstand" joke; "It's got a good beat and you can dance to it, so I'll give it an 85 Dick." But there's one thing you can try....

Listen to some of the music that was considered rock'n'roll back when it's believed to have begun( commercially, that's agreed to be around 1955) and then progress over the years and see how anything newer stacks up against the earlier stuff. That may or may not help, but....

You mentioned "folk" up there in your query. Now, personally, I wouldn't consider it to be in the rock'n'roll envelope, but when a "folk" type tune was played with accompanyment of electric guitar, bass and drums, it got called "Folk-ROCK". And I do understand your confusion, as far as some of the inductees go. For example, you also mentioned RAP. And there's many who DON'T consider it to be rock'n'roll, but when the genre began, it WAS radically different from what was considered "mainstream" and "socially acceptable"(meaning the OLD folks didn't like it), so my guess would be that RAP fits in the HOF because it TOO was radically different when it came about, and I've always contended that there probably wouldn't BE any Rap, Hip-Hop and the like if it WASN'T for rock'n'roll busting the chains and flinging the musical gates wide open.

I hope SOME of this helps, but maybe I confused you a bit more. If I did, I apologize and it wasn't my intent.
Whitefang
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#2848133 - 04/09/17 11:53 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Bottom End Offline
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Posts: 2257
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Is the Rock&Roll hall of fame redefining Rock&Roll. Nothing against any of the inductees, but not all of the are what I consider R&R. Is Rap R&R, is Folk R&R? I don't know, so please help me out.
As far as the R&R HOF is concerned, whatever gets you to pay the admission fee to view the exhibits, and encourages you to buy a bunch of RRHOF branded merchandise, that's Rock & Roll.
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#2848137 - 04/09/17 12:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Larryz Online   content
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9811
Loc: Northern California
JuJu, I think the hey day(s) for rock and roll was from about '55 through '65 and from that point on a lot of music was called rock and roll that was later just called rock...or you could start including country rock, alt rock, acid rock, metal, heavy metal, pop rock, classic rock, 50's rock, even disco and the list goes on and on. I don't consider Rap or Folk as rock and roll and yet that music gets incorporated as well into R&R Hall of Fame music and inductees. What you consider as your rock and roll is what is important. +1 the R&R Hall of Fame includes tons of non-rock and rollers. The old music had a rock measure followed by a roll measure if things get too technical LOL! cool
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#2848142 - 04/09/17 12:36 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5847
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
[This was typed while BottomEnd & Larry were typing.]


If y'wanna get strit on defining R&R y'd haveta stop sometime in late 1950s, then switch over to "rock" abt mid-60s & so on.

I'd say what defines itself as R&R is the R&B-derived music that grew from the intermixing of music styles in mid 20th C. + the musics that followed.
That said, one can find older examples back as far as Charley Patton & maybe Beethoven & Tchaikovsky, whose 1812 Overture sounds like the Who to me.

Lotsa modern country music, starting early 1970s, sounds just like classic rock. Many ppl dislike hip-hop but let's be honest that's basically a cultural prejudice; if y' listen to Public Enemy, sounds very like James Brown, & , sorry, one can't mount a true & successful argument that JB wasn't one rockin' cat.

It's esp problematic when ppl try edging out stuff simply b/c they may not like it.
I know a woman who says women can't do rock music.
Some think only metal is true modern rock.

When ya try to put up a fence to corral art, it seldom works.

Tell me which of these ain't rock music ?
Why'd you think so ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR2gR6SZC2M

Sure sounds like Chuck Berry licks to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7cL9yJ41gA

Issat C&W ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UjvdZm-Tu8

It's The Beatles. How can it not be rock ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQaVIoEjOM

Using the same techniques as that Beatle track to achieve the sound of James Brown to underline the lyrix = Don't believe the hype !

James Dickenson pretending to be Jim Morrison singin' a Dylan song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LFnXgsOVDU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw-TVrR8wZc


Actually the thing abt modern rock & roll music is best explained by the book MUMBO JUMBO by Ishmael Reed.
It's basically the story of an infectiousness that gradually overtakes & (slowly but Shirley) unifies ppl during the 20th C.




Edited by d (04/09/17 12:46 PM)
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#2848149 - 04/09/17 12:50 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: d]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9453
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
See what I mean about lack of consensus?

But there's a lot of truth in the last two posts:

d's statement about putting up a fence to corral art not working is true for ALL art forms. R&R especially. That made good sense.

And LARRY's one sentence, "What you consider as your rock and roll is what is important" couldn't be TRUER.
Whitefang
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#2848154 - 04/09/17 01:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
CEB Offline
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If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.
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#2848164 - 04/09/17 01:44 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5130
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Did your head bob or bang? Did your ass boogie? Did you feel an adrenaline rush?

Odds are good it was some form of Rock & Roll.





(Or you've been mixing stimulants and hallucinogens again...)
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#2848165 - 04/09/17 01:48 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
d Offline
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Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 5847
Loc: no longer lexington, Kenfunky,...
Originally Posted By: CEB
If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.


w00t


Note how in some shots the drummer's LH stick seems to be flickin' outta Richard's mouth like a snake's tongue.
Debbil music indeed !

PianoBanana
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#2848166 - 04/09/17 01:56 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5130
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: CEB
If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll.


You sound like a man who'd enjoy the work of the late Mark Sandman's band, Morphine.


And- despite having a harmonica instead of a sax- his prior band, Treat Her Right.
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Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2848204 - 04/09/17 05:59 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
JuJu Kwan Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 189
Loc: Shenzhen, China
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.
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#2848210 - 04/09/17 06:15 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9453
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
I don't know how much exposure you've had since then, but I envy you your discovery. Those "first exposures" are when it's the most fun! smile
Whitefang
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#2848225 - 04/09/17 07:00 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Larryz Online   content
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9811
Loc: Northern California
I'm glad you got to come over JuJu and take some of that good old rock and roll back home with you! The Beatles are a great band to learn it from! cool
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#2848233 - 04/09/17 09:30 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5130
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2848268 - 04/10/17 05:41 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 606
Loc: Virginia
Etta James recorded a song "Roll with me Henry - The Wallflower".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shpLJJ_ku0M

which was preceded by Hank Ballard's Work with me Henry.

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#2848287 - 04/10/17 07:33 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 12321
My wise crack about "If it doesn't have a saxophone it isn't Rock n Roll" wasn't something I made up. This is something a bandleader I worked for when I was a college student used to say. I paid my way through college playing in a 50s and 60s Pre-British Invasion Rock n Roll review show. Sort of along the lines of Sha Na Na. The bandleader was a Tenor Sax man. He hated the British bands with the slight exception of the Rolling Stones. Blamed them for coming over and putting American bands out of work ...... seriously he said that. Not sure I would want to play that gig now but I sure wished the gold lamé suit still fit. grin But I loved the music. It was fun music with the happy backbeat.

But to me at least in my mind's eye I sort of had a similar picture of Rock N Roll. To me it was mostly a Pre British Invasion sound. Vocal harmonies, sax riffs, upbeat 4/4 back beat rhythm. We kind of saw a resurgence in the 80s with Huey Lewis and John Cafferty ect.... Happy Days was a big TV hit. What morphed and followed the British Invasion of the 60s I viewed more as Rock... without the Roll.


Edited by CEB (04/10/17 07:41 AM)
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"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes !!!
So can a auto Mechanic. " - Stokes Hunt

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#2848296 - 04/10/17 08:05 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: CEB]
Larryz Online   content
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Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 9811
Loc: Northern California
CEB, there was another resurgence of pre-Brit sans sax LOL! And that would be The Stray Cats. They did a great job bringing back that very cool vibe of old rock and roll, which reminded me of Sha Na Na when they made the scene! Lots of 50's parties back in the 70's and 80's... cool
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#2848351 - 04/10/17 11:16 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
Scott Fraser Offline
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There are many tributaries to the river that is broadly rock & roll, but it all streams forth from the fount of the African-American experience which poured from the earth as the Blues. It mixed & mingled with various other influences, notably British/Celtic music brought by the people who settled in Appalachia, as well as Afro-Caribbean musics coming up through New Orleans. Out of the blends have come every truly American music form: jazz, gospel, spirituals, rhythm & blues, funk, country, zydeco, hip-hop, bluegrass, soul, rock & roll, & as many additional sub-genres as one may wish to define.
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#2848367 - 04/10/17 12:23 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
DocPate Offline
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@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.

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#2848412 - 04/10/17 05:07 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
JuJu Kwan Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 02/08/16
Posts: 189
Loc: Shenzhen, China
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!

I'm going to Australia this summer, I can watch them there.
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#2848420 - 04/10/17 06:19 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9453
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Not only is there plenty of MUSIC you can find and hear, but also plenty BOOKS on the subject. But they too, have varying opinions as to the music's origins and where it went from point A, and it might confuse you a bit, but still good info.

Have fun in Oz. wink
Whitefang
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#2848451 - 04/10/17 10:55 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: JuJu Kwan]
Dannyalcatraz Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5130
Loc: Dallas/FW Metroplex, Texas
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
Originally Posted By: Dannyalcatraz
Originally Posted By: JuJu Kwan
@d-Thank you for the videos, unfortunately YouTube is blocked here and I can't watch them. I do appreciate the effort.

I guess my limited exposure to Western music makes it somewhat confusing, but I think I have a slightly better idea. We mostly Listened to the Beatles. I wasn't exposed to most other R&R artists till 2012, when I came to the USA for college.


It's unfortunate that you can't see the posted videos. A thought: could you store the links in a file on some kind of flash drive or other portable data system? That way, if & when you are somewhere where you're NOT restricted, you could binge on some good music!

I'm going to Australia this summer, I can watch them there.


Great! If there are any genre or artist exemplars you can think of, ask and we can post some links for your "Summer Homework".
_________________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap”.

My FLMS- Murphy's Music in Irving, Tx

http://murphysmusictx.com/

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#2848473 - 04/11/17 04:28 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Dannyalcatraz]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9453
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Another good point is that rock'n'roll is a great "equalizer".

ALL are welcome. Even in JAZZ there were(nd still are I think) some who thought it should be left only for African-Americans to play and listen to. Rock doesn't MAKE that distiction. That everyone from Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, The Beatles, Richie Valens, Eddie Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, Los Lobos and Lenny Kravitz are either already IN and COULD get into the HOF proves how inclusive it is. True rock'n'roll lovers DON'T CARE if the dude playing it is white, black, yellow, brown or WHATEVER. As long as it ROCKS! wink
Whitefang
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#2848476 - 04/11/17 04:51 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: whitefang]
Eric Iverson Offline
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I don't consider myself racist, but I draw the line at green skinned Martians, or Jolly Green Giants.
BTW, I recently heard that old "Jolly Green Giant" song from the '60s again.... quite funny.

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#2848481 - 04/11/17 05:11 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Eric Iverson]
whitefang Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9453
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
Well, I'd say if "Harry The Hairy Ape" could become a "rock star", then ANY of us has a shot! grin
Whitefang
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I started out with NOTHING...and I still have most of it left!

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#2848552 - 04/11/17 09:18 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
Scott Fraser Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
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Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: DocPate
@scott There are a lot of people who will debate you on bluegrass.


I got most of the that particular history lesson from the history timeline at the Country Music Hall of Fame in Nashville, so I'm sticking with that version.
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#2848567 - 04/11/17 09:50 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Scott Fraser]
DocPate Offline
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Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 606
Loc: Virginia
Suit yourself. But I don't see that on the HOF timeline. And as one who grew up in the coalfields of Appalachia and knowing personally the major players of beginning bluegrass, it didn't derive from the blues.

Now, having said that, and with all due respect, the instrument s of Bluegrass are rooted in the African American people's. The banjo (banjar) was directly descended from Africa and the fiddle was the instrument most often used by slaves for the benefit of slave owners at dances.

So, I can understand how some would say it. But Bill Monroe when he sang "Blue Moon of Kentucky", considered for first Bluegrass song, wasn't thinking about a 12 bar, call and response, blues style.

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#2848575 - 04/11/17 09:57 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
Larryz Online   content
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Registered: 06/23/08
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Loc: Northern California
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAVFpThoeb4 <---I think Blue Moon of Kentucky was more of a waltz LOL! Although the story is pretty blue LOL! Until Elvis came along and recorded his second song at Sun Records (side B of That's Alright). The country boys didn't care for his rock and roll version at the Grand Old Opry though LOL! cool
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#2848580 - 04/11/17 10:03 AM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: Larryz]
DocPate Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/11/16
Posts: 606
Loc: Virginia
+1 Larry. Bluegrass remains somewhat unique in that the style requires no amplification, no percussions and the "high lonesome sound" if the vocals. Newgrass which was an attempt to modify the bluegrass rules quickly was declared non-bluegrass. From that has sprung the term 'Americana'...

But, it ain't Rock and Roll IMHO

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#2848683 - 04/11/17 03:33 PM Re: What is Rock&Roll? [Re: DocPate]
whitefang Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 9453
Loc: Lincoln Park, MI, UNITED STATE...
@Larry:

Heh! "Blue Moon Waltz" instead of "Blue Danube"? Sure. grin

By JOHANN MONROE!

Well, B.B. KING once referred to country music as "White boy blues", and I guess that would include bluegrass too. wink
Whitefang
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