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#2831154 - 01/26/17 06:14 AM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: timwat]
Markay Online   content
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2351
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: timwat
Agreed on analog.

But be prepared for the backlash. I've found lots of naysayers that digital is more accurate, analog is dirty, etc. I trust my ears and far prefer vinyl on great speakers.

Each to their own, but the vinyl v digital argument seems like a nostalgia trip to me.

The original recording was on tape, vinyl was just the mass distribution medium de jour. Every thing about vinyl is a compromise, wears out with every play, deep bass wide grooves V maximum play time and finicky to maintain.

Then came consumer tape cassettes, versatile, portable, compromised frequency response, tape hiss, falls apart with time.

Digital, long lasting in CD format or as a file on a computer, option for hi res audio. No maintenance.

I like digital because all I hear is the music, no surface or media noise. Same quality source material whether I listen to it at home on the hi-fi, in the car or on my phone.
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#2831170 - 01/26/17 07:28 AM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Markay]
J. Dan Offline
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Digital is certainly lower noise, but there are downsides compared to analog. They are samples, which limits resolution in both the level and time domains. On top of that, you have errors between the sampling and reconstruction stages, not to mention losses due to file compression. Theoretically, these issues should be inaudible if the A/D and D/A converters are of the highest possible quality and matched, and the sample rate and resolution are as high as possible, and lossless formats are used, but in the real world this isn't always the case, especially when it comes to mp3s.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2831261 - 01/26/17 01:12 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: J. Dan]
Lindaru Offline
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Registered: 07/19/15
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Oddly I have noticed that some modern music artists (EDM, pop, hip hop) are deliberately adding "record player pop and static" into their digital recordings.

So that sound may be coming back in style.

smile
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#2831266 - 01/26/17 01:15 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Lindaru]
J. Dan Offline
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Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: Lindaru
Oddly I have noticed that some modern music artists (EDM, pop, hip hop) are deliberately adding "record player pop and static" into their digital recordings.

So that sound may be coming back in style.

smile


It's available as an effect on the Kronos. I added it when for a short time I was in a project that was doing Jump Around by House of Pain.
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Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2831276 - 01/26/17 01:29 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: MorayM]
Marzzz Offline
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Registered: 11/24/00
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Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: MorayM
I've got a Rega Planar 2 (belt drive) which occasionally gets a spin. You can still get replacement belts, and it sounds just fine.

I have a Rega Planar 3, bought it back in 1980 when I was into that "Audiophile on a Budget" thing. Still works great, the few times I have used it. Where did you get replacement belts, I am sure I'm due...

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#2831291 - 01/26/17 01:54 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: J. Dan]
MIDI2XS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 345
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
Originally Posted By: Lindaru
Oddly I have noticed that some modern music artists (EDM, pop, hip hop) are deliberately adding "record player pop and static" into their digital recordings.

So that sound may be coming back in style.

smile


It's available as an effect on the Kronos. I added it when for a short time I was in a project that was doing Jump Around by House of Pain.

The Motif Classic, ES, XS, and XF all have several "Lo-Fi" effects, including "Digital Turntable". Some preset voices in those models use that effect.

Personally, I don't see the attraction, but to each his/her own. idk
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#2831424 - 01/27/17 05:24 AM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Marzzz]
MorayM Offline
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Registered: 09/05/13
Posts: 1204
Loc: Wilts, UK
Originally Posted By: Marzzz
Originally Posted By: MorayM
I've got a Rega Planar 2 (belt drive) which occasionally gets a spin. You can still get replacement belts, and it sounds just fine.

I have a Rega Planar 3, bought it back in 1980 when I was into that "Audiophile on a Budget" thing. Still works great, the few times I have used it. Where did you get replacement belts, I am sure I'm due...


From Rega themselves! I believe their new RP tables use the same belt.
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#2831562 - 01/27/17 03:08 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: J. Dan]
JazzPiano88 Offline
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Registered: 11/16/15
Posts: 141
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: timwat

But be prepared for the backlash. I've found lots of naysayers that digital is more accurate, analog is dirty, etc. I trust my ears and far prefer vinyl on great speakers.

I liken it to visual arts. You go to Yosemite and see Half Dome. Would you prefer your mind's eye image, Ansel Adam's photograph, or a perfectly rendered sterile photograph with the best SNR at high noon? I think most of us would agree we prefer Ansel Adam's. Ansel's photograph adds the most "color" or has the most inaccuracies in a mathematical sense, but is far and away more preferable artistically. It's all about perception and not fidelity or accuracy. This is why many(most?) people prefer the LP sound despite its provable inferiority from an accuracy/fidelity standpoint.

Originally Posted By: J. Dan

Remember the record players where you could stack records and when it would get to the end, it would drop the next one and keep playing?

Ahh yes.... smile Did anyone ever have a record come crashing down on the tonearm?

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#2831618 - 01/27/17 09:43 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: JazzPiano88]
Markay Online   content
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2351
Loc: Australia
Just read THIS Bloomberg article.

I think the author nailed it, the vinyl - and hard copy book - renaissance is not about audio quality, it is about folks bringing more anti-machine elements into their lifestyle.
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#2831626 - 01/27/17 10:21 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Skinny]
KenElevenShadows Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 13225
Loc: Los Angeles, CA, UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: Skinny
Belt drive vs. direct drive... which do you prefer, and why?


This isn't very scientific. It's a small sample size.

But my turntable, which I purchased with my paper route money as a kid in 1979, is a Technics direct drive. And it still works. I still have it. I've never owned another turntable. It's rare that you buy anything mechanical from that long ago and still have it work as well as the day you bought it.

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#2831686 - 01/28/17 08:28 AM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: MorayM]
Marzzz Offline
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Registered: 11/24/00
Posts: 2268
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: MorayM
Originally Posted By: Marzzz
I have a Rega Planar 3, bought it back in 1980 when I was into that "Audiophile on a Budget" thing. Still works great, the few times I have used it. Where did you get replacement belts, I am sure I'm due...

From Rega themselves! I believe their new RP tables use the same belt.


DOH!! Of course....thx!

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#2831739 - 01/28/17 12:51 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Marzzz]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 7983
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I didn't realize this was a topic about analog vs. digital.

There's a TON of material that has never been digitized and likely never will. This especially applies to bands on small indie labels, 50's through 80's and even beyond.

I have exactly one cube of 12" vinyl. Every five years or so, exactly ONE of those records gets rereleased digitally -- usually as part of an uber-expensive boxed set for "completeness".

The 30 or so awesome Boston and New England bands that didn't make it to the majors -- and even some that did -- will unlikely ever see the light of day as digital product.

There is one area though where vinyl can trump digital in raw quality, and that is the 12" single at 45rpm, which has incredible dynamic range.

I lost interest years ago in audiophile issues, as I'm too busy making music to listen to music casually anymore. I got rid of my entire high-end stereo system and am now stuck having to upload/digitize to my computer to listen, which would be OK except my awesome Onkyo Integra cassette deck broke yet again.

I bought a Stanton STR8-50 turntable in the mid-90's after I realized a lot of stuff was never going to make it to the digital world. I was unable to find a turntable that also plats 16rpm or 78rpm.

My parents have a lot of original 78's they inherited, for classical works that haven't been re-recorded since. When recording technology was new, it was where new music went as concerts tended to have to cater to a crowd more resistant to newness and change. We had to flip over the stylus for the 78's; maybe there was an MM vs. MC difference? Or maybe just a difference in depth/width/angle as 78's were lathed differently.

16rpm was common for spoken voice recording, as less dynamic range or frequency response was needed and so they could pack a lot more onto a single mono disc that way. But most of that stuff is probably available in digital format by now.

I don't recommend buying a 33rpm-only turntable, as you will inevitably come across a 45rpm long disc, whether 10" or 12" or even a hybrid disc that is 33rpm on one side and 45rpm on the other.
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#2831740 - 01/28/17 12:52 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Mark Schmieder]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Registered: 09/08/05
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Before I moved from MA to CA in late '91, I had a wonderful Rega (Scottish brand as I recall) glass turntable. I thought one couldn't play records in CA due to all the earthquakes, so gave it to my sisters (along with all my vinyl), then a few years later realized I was going to need a turntable again but no longer cared about hi-fi as long as it was adequate.

It's been a decade or so since I last checked, but I recall Rega still being considered a "bargain" and great bang-for-buck in terms of high-end without the high cost.
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#2831741 - 01/28/17 12:54 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Mark Schmieder]
Mark Schmieder Offline
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Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 7983
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
KenElevenShadows has a good point about buying used from an older era. In the 70's, direct drive was the way to go at the consumer or prosumer level, for the reasons he mentions.

That began to change by the late 70's -- at least from the higher end of the prosumer level on up. I liken it to tubes vs. solid state in amps, in that you can achieve great results with either, but it is easier to get good results with one technology vs. the other, at a lower price point.
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#2831791 - 01/28/17 04:16 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Mark Schmieder]
MIDI2XS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/14/13
Posts: 345
Originally Posted By: Mark Schmieder
[...] My parents have a lot of original 78's they inherited, for classical works that haven't been re-recorded since. When recording technology was new, it was where new music went as concerts tended to have to cater to a crowd more resistant to newness and change. We had to flip over the stylus for the 78's; maybe there was an MM vs. MC difference? Or maybe just a difference in depth/width/angle as 78's were lathed differently. [...]

The tip radius for a spherical stylus meant to play LPs (16/33/45) is approximately 1 mil (0.001 inch) or a bit less than that. For 78s, it's about 3 mils, or somewhat less. The size variations relate to things such as age, mono versus stereo, and whether transcriptions. With elliptical and other non-spherical styli, those dimensions are for the major axis. Non-spherical styli are closer to the shape of the cutting stylus, and tend to better follow groove undulations, usually providing better high-frequency reproduction and lower distortion.
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#2831794 - 01/28/17 04:22 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: MIDI2XS]
J. Dan Offline
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Posts: 10627
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I remember having a record player with the stylus you could flip over - it was 2-sided.
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2831800 - 01/28/17 04:37 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Skinny]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
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Loc: Where the wild things are
Originally Posted By: timwat
I trust my ears and far prefer vinyl on great speakers.


Same here (hear?). It's an odd example, but I've yet to hear a CD of Jethro Tull's Aqualung album that sounded as good as the vinyl.


Originally Posted By: Skinny
My parents still have theirs. It's a Lear (or Learjet?) console from the mid 70's.



The inventor actually named his daughter Crystal Shanda Lear. smile
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#2831829 - 01/28/17 08:03 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: J. Dan]
JazzPiano88 Offline
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Registered: 11/16/15
Posts: 141
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
I remember having a record player with the stylus you could flip over - it was 2-sided.

I had one too. We called it the "needle". One side was for 33/45 rpm. The other side was for 78 rpm. Also had fond memories of a bunch of dust that would build up on the needle after the record was over. You had to wipe it off and hear the "Wuf" "Wuf" "Wuf" through the speaker smile. Great memories!

Did you use the cylindrical toilet-paper-cardboard-shaped thingy (that slipped over the spindle) for 45's, or the individual wafer-like adapters?

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#2850721 - 04/20/17 07:38 PM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: JazzPiano88]
Skinny Offline
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Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 1846
I just got one of these tonight as an early b-day gift from my wife. A nice upgrade from my $50 Radio Shack clearance special that I've been using for about 8 years. cool
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#2850748 - 04/21/17 01:24 AM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Skinny]
ProfD Offline
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Registered: 05/11/06
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Loc: Wash DC Area
I have a Stanton T62 direct drive TT. It is great for mining audio. cool
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#2850762 - 04/21/17 03:07 AM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: ProfD]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
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My Dad's last job before retirement was VP at Pickering working directly for Walter Stanton. IIRC they also made gyroscopes for military aircraft. I also remember he scored a nice turntable cartridge for me.

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#2850823 - 04/21/17 10:00 AM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Marzzz]
Desert Rat Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 277
Loc: Arizona, U.S.
Originally Posted By: Marzzz
I have a Rega Planar 3, bought it back in 1980 when I was into that "Audiophile on a Budget" thing. Still works great, the few times I have used it. Where did you get replacement belts, I am sure I'm due...


An alternate source and one that has just about anything you could ever ask for when it comes to turntables is http://www.needledoctor.com

I have a Thorens TD 126 Mk III with a Shure V-15 Type 5 cart and get my belts, etc. from Jerry at very reasonable prices.
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#2850829 - 04/21/17 10:46 AM Re: OT: Turntables [Re: Delaware Dave]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1696
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: Delaware Dave
I have a 70's Dual 1228 (belt drive). I didn't use it for a few years and the belt stayed in one position. When I used finally used it I got a little warble because of the belt being 'out of round', so I would vote direct drive.


That's no problem Dave unless it's really extreme. Just let it run as long as it takes for the belt to sort itself out. A few hours at the most should do it.

Bob

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