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#2831605 - 01/27/17 08:37 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: niacin]
burningbusch Offline
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I have no idea on the price. If all you're gonna do all night is play AP sounds, you know, get a CP-4.

But, if you can have all these engines, which no one else has in this range, and let's say you can load up your own samples and/or those from the Korg Web Store into the HD-1 (64GB SSD). Then this nice, compact keyboard I think has a LOT to offer.

Korg is typically value conscious.

Busch.

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#2831613 - 01/27/17 09:10 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: burningbusch]
niacin Offline
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Registered: 11/21/04
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sure, IF I can load my own samples, load maybe Scarbee, yeh awesome, but there's no indication of this, and the Roland has their 'supernatural' sound engines including the V-piano, the VK organ etc. But hey, I'm not looking to argue, we're all just waiting for more details, release date, and pricing. The RD2000, otoh, has already landed.
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#2831664 - 01/28/17 07:13 AM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: niacin]
justin_havu Offline
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Registered: 12/28/11
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Looks interesting, but the RH3 action isn't my cup of tea; a bit too heavy and sluggish at times. I was kinda hoping they would develop a new action, maybe with escapement like on the RD2000 and CP4.
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#2831672 - 01/28/17 07:38 AM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: niacin]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 10199
Originally Posted By: niacin
[quote=AnotherScott]If the competition is say Roland's RD2000, listed at Sweetwater for $2500, and Yamaha's CP4, listed for $2300, then I would think the 88 would want to come in at certainly no more probably a little less, given most of us would rate the piano sounds and action of both the RD2000 and the CP4 as better than the Kronos. So I'm still fairly hopeful of a 73 at a street price under $2k.

As I alluded to earlier, I think you could also look at the Grandstage as competitive with the Nord Piano 3 and ElectroHP, both selling for $3k (even despite less than top-of-line actions), which might give them a little more upside latitude. Its travel weight and whether there is any way to load new/custom samples into its 64 gb storage could be a big variable here, those are unknowns. But if GS ends up without significant benefits in those areas, then yeah, the boards you mentioned would seem to mark about the top price of the remaining competition.

On paper, the RD2000 is the closer competitor than the Yamaha. Roland will have something akin to its piano, EP, tonewheel, rompler engines (though, as far as we've seen so far, no VA synth) and I think a different but still appealing ergonomic interface. To that, add better action and better MIDI controller functionality, though I think we can assume higher travel weight. Roland arguably has the edge in piano sound, Korg more likely even or better in the rest. As for Yamaha, CP4 lacks everything the Roland lacks, while in addition lacking the tonewheel, ergonomic, and MIDI advantages, but we'll see about travel weight. For that matter, there's also the CP40, which has most of what a CP4 has, lower travel weight, and an action that is probably closer to the Korg's RH3.
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#2838768 - 02/28/17 01:16 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: jerrythek]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: jerrythek
The sound engine in the SV-1...is more akin to the Pa engine and not the HD-1.

I hadn't thought about this earlier, but is the PA engine (or the variation of it that's in the SV1) capable of some things that the HD1 engine is not? That would certainly interfere with the ability to replicate the SV1 sounds through the HD1 engine. I think I had just assumed that the Kronos' HD1 would be Korg's top-of-the-line sample playback engine, and that it therefore could do anything any of them could, but I realized that (a) I don't actually know if AL1 is indeed Korg's most capable sample engine, and (b) even if it is, there could still be certain things it can't do that "lesser" implementations could.

Having been playing more with my SV1 and Kronos, I did start to wish I could have some of those SV1 EPs in the Kronos, and I got the idea that maybe I'd use something like SampleRobot to get them in there. I might play with that, I think it might at least do a decent job at getting the basic sounds. But I like some of the amp simulation sounds too, and there is a pretty loud hiss when using those. If you set all your gains right, it's not too objectionable in a live context, but I notices that it seems to be constant... i.e. the same level wither you play a single note or a 5 note chord. I'm afraid that if I sampled that into the Kronos, since that hiss would be on each individual note, I'd end up with 5x the noise when I played a 5-note chord!
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#2838982 - 03/01/17 03:25 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: AnotherScott]
jerrythek Offline
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Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 919
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: jerrythek
The sound engine in the SV-1...is more akin to the Pa engine and not the HD-1.

I hadn't thought about this earlier, but is the PA engine (or the variation of it that's in the SV1) capable of some things that the HD1 engine is not? That would certainly interfere with the ability to replicate the SV1 sounds through the HD1 engine. I think I had just assumed that the Kronos' HD1 would be Korg's top-of-the-line sample playback engine, and that it therefore could do anything any of them could, but I realized that (a) I don't actually know if HD1 is indeed Korg's most capable sample engine, and (b) even if it is, there could still be certain things it can't do that "lesser" implementations could.


There is a fundamental difference in their designs... in the Pa Series each oscillator has it's own filter, amp, LFO, envelopes etc. So an oscillator is a complete voice. And you can use from 1 up to 24 (if I am remembering correctly). So you can seriously tailor the sound and response of small elements like key-off noise, and such.

The Korg Japan voice stacks many waveforms into dual single "voice" architectures, so while velocity splits and even some layering is possible, they all then share the same filter, amp, LFO and envelope attributes.

The Pa voice can trigger an oscillator based on certain "rules", like legato versus separated note play. Here is the listing from one of the Pa instrument's manual:

Mode
This is the trigger that allows the selected Oscillator to play.

Normal - The Oscillator always plays when a key is pressed (unless the “OSC Off when Sound Controllers are On” parameter is checked).

Legato - The Oscillator only plays when the note is played ‘legato’. The delay and pitch interval from the previous note are also to be considered, as set in the Sound > Basic page (see “Legato as OSC Trigger” above).

Staccato - The Oscillator only plays when the note is NOT played legato (it is the opposite of the above choice).

Sound Controller 1 - The Oscillator only plays after a switch or foot- switch programmed as the Sound Controller 1 has been pressed. Press and release it, and the next note will also trigger the selected Oscillator. If you keep it pressed, the Oscillator will continue to be triggered until you release the controller.

Hint: This (like the following Sound Controllers) is especially useful to enable a different nuance to the following note(s).

Sound Controller 2- As the above, but with a switch or footswitch programmed as the Sound Controller 2.

Sound Controller Y+ - As the above, but with the Joystick, assigned as the Sound Controller, pushed at least half-way forward (value 64). The controller is turned off when the Joystick is released. This control is equivalent to a CC#01 (Modulation) Control Change message.

Sound Controller Y- As the above, but with the Joystick, assigned as the Sound Controller, pulled at least half-way back (value 64). The controller is turned off when the Joystick is released. This control is equivalent to a CC#02 (Breath Controller) Control Change message.

Cycle 1 - All Oscillators with this same trigger mode assigned will play in cycle. For example, if Oscillators 1, 2 and 4 are assigned the Cycle 1 trigger mode, the following note will trigger Oscillator 1, then 2, then 4, then1 again.

Hint: This is especially useful to trigger different sound nuances or create vector-like sound sequences.

Cycle 2 - As the above, for use with a different (and parallel) group of Oscillators. Having two Cycle Trigger Modes allows for cycling stereo multisamples.

Random - As the above, but with a random selection of Oscillators within the assigned group.

After Touch Trigger On - The Oscillator starts playing when an After Touch message with a value of at least 90 is received. The Velocity value is the same as the latest Note On message. The Oscillator will stop playing when the After Touch value falls back to zero.

Hint: This (like the following Triggers) is especially useful to trigger harmonics or growls when a note is already playing.

Y+ Trigger On - As the above, but with the Joystick, assigned as the Sound Controller, pushed at least half-way forward (value 64). The controller is turned off when the Joystick is released. This control is equivalent to a CC#01 (Modulation) Control Change message.

Y- Trigger On - As the above, but with the Joystick, assigned as the Sound Controller, pulled at least half-way back (value 64). The controller is turned off when the Joystick is released. This control is equivalent to a CC#02 (Breath Controller) Control Change message.

Legato Up - Like Legato, but is only activated when the second note is out of the “Max Range” value and it is higher than the first one.

Legato Down - Like Legato, but is only activated when the second note is out of the “Max Range” value and it is lower than the first one.

Delay
This parameter sets a delay time from the note-on to the real beginning of the sound. With a setting of KeyOff, the sound will begin when note-off occurs. This is useful to create sounds such as the “click” that is heard when a harpsichord note is released. In this case, set the “Sustain” parameter to 0.

0...5000ms - Delay time in milliseconds.

Key Off - The sound will begin when the note is released. The note velocity is read from the Key On Velocity.

Key Release - The sound will begin when the note is released. The note velocity is read from the Key Off Velocity.

Natural Release - The sound will begin when the note is released. The note starts from the current volume of the sound. If the sound’s volume is already at zero, this oscillator is not retriggered.

Now, note that in the Korg Japan voice design, some of these behaviors occur automatically (like the volume response of some release modes), but they are not parameter-ized and under your control.

I shared all this just to say that the Korg Italy design is very advanced/capable, and the Pa products use this for their Defined Nuance control for sounds, and the SV-1 has that capability. I can't say it was used a lot, but we did use some. Most important is the "full-voice per oscillator" aspect of the design.

I know, long tangent, but it's interesting stuff.

Cheers!

Jerry

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#2839034 - 03/01/17 06:56 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: jerrythek]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 10199
Originally Posted By: jerrythek
I shared all this just to say that the Korg Italy design is very advanced/capable, and the Pa products use this for their Defined Nuance control for sounds, and the SV-1 has that capability. I can't say it was used a lot, but we did use some. Most important is the "full-voice per oscillator" aspect of the design.

I know, long tangent, but it's interesting stuff.

Yes, very interesting, thanks for sharing!

And now that you mention it, I do remember those kinds of limitations in HD1, where (IIRC) if you wanted to do your own piano samples, you could not do proper string resonance, because HD1 did not have the ability to employ different samples based on whether the pedal was up or down. (Maybe by layering the samples separately in a Combi?) So that would be an example of a way HD1 could not do what the SV1 does (though of course the Kronos implements that particular functionality elsewhere, in SGX1/2).

The PA models' spec sheets say they use an EDS engine. IIRC, EDS (or some variation) is what's in M3, M50, Microstation, Kross, Krome--models "beneath" the Kronos--so I was thinking that those PA models would similarly be "downscale" from what was in the Kronos (apart from their arranger functionality, obviously). But I'd never looked at these things in that kind of detail, I just assumed HD1>EDS. It sounds like--while of course the 9-engine complement of the Kronos as a whole gives you a lot more than EDS alone--the HD1 engine itself is not so much "better" than EDS as it is different, better in some ways, not as good in others, yes? A "different set" rather than a superset. And then more specifically, getting back to those key differentiators of "each oscillator has it's own filter, amp, LFO, envelopes etc" and "The Pa voice can trigger an oscillator based on certain 'rules'" - does the EDS-based M3 have these functionalities as well? Or, even though based on the same EDS engine, are these capabilities specific to the PA series? (Perhaps having something to do with the Defined Nuance Control you mentioned and the "RX (Real eXperience)" features, which I only found explained in pretty vague terms?)
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#2839177 - 03/02/17 12:50 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: AnotherScott]
jerrythek Offline
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Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 919
Unfortunately the spec sheet-type info doesn't always tell the story of the synthesis engine. One the one hand, they're all just sample-playback with a subtractive synthesis engine, right? So the technology isn't all that different between various models...

But the actual architecture changes, of course, and in the usual Korg lineage each generation just builds on the previous (M1, to T Series, to O1/W to Trinity, to Triton, and so on).

But the Italian group rethought that architecture to suit their wants/needs/whatever, so their voice really is different. But the company was slow to acknowledge the differences. It seems only with the Pa4X have they finally renamed to synthesis engine to be EDS-X (Enhanced Definition Synthesis-eXpanded). So you are right to have been confused...

And yes, for the Kronos the Korg group chose to make a dedicated engine for piano emulation so they could really focus on the specific needs of emulating that instrument. Smart.

Regards,

Jerry

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#2839181 - 03/02/17 01:12 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: jerrythek]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 10199
Originally Posted By: jerrythek
the Italian group rethought that architecture to suit their wants/needs/whatever, so their voice really is different. But the company was slow to acknowledge the differences. It seems only with the Pa4X have they finally renamed to synthesis engine to be EDS-X (Enhanced Definition Synthesis-eXpanded). So you are right to have been confused...

Thanks for all the info, but here's something I'm still confused about... the Krome is said to have an EDS-X engine, though (AFAIK) that model comes from the Japanese rather than Italian lineage. So did they put the "finally renamed" Italian PA synth engine into the Krome? Or despite sharing the EDS-X nomenclature, is the Krome still an extension of the earlier Japanese EDS model, and those other "Korg Italy" attributes we discussed ("each oscillator has it's own filter, amp, LFO, envelopes etc" and "The Pa voice can trigger an oscillator based on certain 'rules'") remain only in the version of EDS-X that is used in the PA models?
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#2839190 - 03/02/17 02:01 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: AnotherScott]
jerrythek Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 919
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Thanks for all the info, but here's something I'm still confused about... the Krome is said to have an EDS-X engine, though (AFAIK) that model comes from the Japanese rather than Italian lineage. So did they put the "finally renamed" Italian PA synth engine into the Krome? Or despite sharing the EDS-X nomenclature, is the Krome still an extension of the earlier Japanese EDS model, and those other "Korg Italy" attributes we discussed ("each oscillator has it's own filter, amp, LFO, envelopes etc" and "The Pa voice can trigger an oscillator based on certain 'rules'") remain only in the version of EDS-X that is used in the PA models?


Sigh... I don't know what they're thinking these days... I left at the end of 2010. But I just was programming a Krome for someone here where I live, and it is NOT the Italian engine. It's still the EDS like the M3.

idk

Jerry

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#2856189 - 05/19/17 03:23 PM Re: Korg Grandstage [Re: jerrythek]
George88 Offline
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Registered: 04/13/12
Posts: 617
Anyone have any news on this board?
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