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#2827357 - 01/11/17 11:08 AM Providing Charts For A Sub
Cabo Offline
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Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 94
Loc: Rochester, NY
A new band I've joined (that hasn't played out yet) has asked about making up a book of my charts (accurate, detailed Sibelius transcriptions) to have available for a keyboard sub, if the need should arise. It probably will, since I play with other groups.

I'm feeling a little uncomfortable with this, since 1 - a lot of work went into them, so I feel they are part of the value I bring and 2 - I really don't know these folks very well and at some point they could decide to let me go and they'd have instant keyboard charts for the new guy. I read a few other threads that suggested charging the band leader, but that doesn't seem right to me in this case. Then I started thinking about the audio samples and backing tracks I've created and I'm wondering if they might ask for them too. What would you guys do?
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#2827358 - 01/11/17 11:13 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
AnotherScott Offline
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I'm protected... nobody else can make heads or tails out of my charts. ;-)
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#2827359 - 01/11/17 11:14 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
MathOfInsects Offline
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"These are just my own cheat sheets and I don't hand these out, but I'm happy to put some formal charts together for you. How is $100 per song?"
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#2827360 - 01/11/17 11:15 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
Bif_ Offline
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Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1251
Loc: Indiana
They're your charts/work product. Your effort, your sweat, your benefit.

It's not your responsibility to make sure someone else can easily do your job.

Sell them? Maybe, but I'd sure get a fair price (which would probably seem like a high price to someone that hasn't created a chart). In other words, "what would I charge to create a chart for someone else?"
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#2827364 - 01/11/17 11:43 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Bif_]
CEB Offline
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Reach out with the Force. If you are feeling uncomfortable there is a reason. Good Musicians have good instincts. Trust them .... whatever they may be telling you. We aint in your shoes.


Edited by CEB (01/11/17 11:44 AM)
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#2827368 - 01/11/17 11:55 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: CEB]
JerryA Offline
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Loc: New England
If the band hasn't played out yet, I personally would be hearing warning bells over this request. You'll need to make up your own mind on this. My response would be something like:

"If a sub is required because I am unable to play a gig, at that point I'd be happy to help prepare the person utilizing whatever methods are necessary, including charts. However ... 1) keyboard performance is about more than transcriptions (sounds, etc) and 2) if the sub is good for this material or genre, he/she would already have many of these songs prepared."
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#2827370 - 01/11/17 12:02 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
Wastrel Offline
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Registered: 05/13/09
Posts: 2425
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Cabo
A new band I've joined (that hasn't played out yet) has asked about making up a book of my charts (accurate, detailed Sibelius transcriptions) to have available for a keyboard sub, if the need should arise. It probably will, since I play with other groups.

I'm feeling a little uncomfortable with this, since 1 - a lot of work went into them, so I feel they are part of the value I bring and 2 - I really don't know these folks very well and at some point they could decide to let me go and they'd have instant keyboard charts for the new guy. I read a few other threads that suggested charging the band leader, but that doesn't seem right to me in this case. Then I started thinking about the audio samples and backing tracks I've created and I'm wondering if they might ask for them too. What would you guys do?

Unfortunately, they have put you in a pretty difficult position. If you refuse, they are going to look at you as "not a team player", if you agree, then you are giving away your work product for free, and enabling them to easily replace you. Lose lose. If this is a cover band, you might be able to finesse the issue by taking an ethical stance. "I'm sorry, but I can't in good conscience distribute transcriptions of another artists' work without permission." Or something like that.

Good luck!
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#2827372 - 01/11/17 12:12 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Wastrel]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Difficult situation! You could make up some shittier more lead sheet style charts and give those out. Or you could put all the charts on a cheap iPad and have the sub use that on the gig.

I'd be more willing to hand over the legit charts in printed form if you had more history with this band. Being new it's more of an unreasonable request on their part.

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#2827375 - 01/11/17 12:16 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Wastrel]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 647
This is a really tough one. I guess if you are already deciding you will be subbing out from the beginning - then I guess it's OK to give them the charts - that's what I do.
OTOH like you said, a lot of work went into creating the charts and it's not really fair for the sub (who might replace you) to go in and have an easy time based on your work.

What if you just said "when that time comes" we will see about giving all of my charts away?

See how this band goes first....
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#2827376 - 01/11/17 12:19 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
nickd Offline
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Registered: 05/24/10
Posts: 930
Loc: UK
I'd stall them for now, then see how you feel when an actual specific situation arises.

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#2827378 - 01/11/17 12:31 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: nickd]
BEMcCut Offline
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Registered: 07/24/11
Posts: 187
Loc: Pennsylvania
I would do the charts but I would keep them. If a sub is needed loan them out and say they must be returned as you need them. There is the chance they will make copies but if they are too lazy to write the charts themselves they will also be too lazy to copy them. Sounds fishy to me. Like they already have a replacement in mind.

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#2827379 - 01/11/17 12:32 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
drawback Offline
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Loc: Canada
That is tough. I've been on the receiving end many times so I always appreciate the charts. The band leaders appreciate it, and the keyboard player looks like a champ by not hanging his band out to dry.

However, the charts belong to the keyboard player I sub for, not the band. It's his chair and he has enough confidence in his relationship with the band leader that he won't lose his gig unless he asks to. I've been a better player than the original guys I've subbed for, but everyone's up front and it's not my permanent gig unless the original guy quits.

If I were you I'd make up the charts but talk to the band leader and explain your trepidation, and tell him the charts are yours till otherwise. Music communities are too small for cloak & dagger stuff, right?

BTW, whose tunes are they anyway? Do you hold copyright to any of them?

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#2827381 - 01/11/17 12:44 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: drawback]
CEB Offline
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I totally missed the " (that hasn't played out yet)" part. F*** that. This is easy.

I know what I would do. I would be polite and measured in tone.... business like. But I would be upfront. I would tell them "No" I work very hard on those chart and I have been in music long enough to know there are a lot of lying dishonorable bastards in music. I would point out that I am not implying they are such people but I have been lied to by the best in my musical history. Of course may want to choose a more diplomatic/professional style of speech. I would not hand over my book so they could bring in a hot chick with fake boobs that sings better than me but can't transcribe music.

But I'm old. You get more upfront the older you get.


Edited by CEB (01/11/17 12:51 PM)
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#2827382 - 01/11/17 12:44 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: drawback]
Cabo Offline
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Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 94
Loc: Rochester, NY
These are all cover tunes we're talking about; I don't own copyright. But most are fairly complex in terms of arrangements and multiple parts I've written out. I don't think they are planning on replacing me, but who knows?

I like the advice to wait it out, but the band leader did say something about putting the book together "as we go", so it may come up sooner than I was hoping.
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#2827383 - 01/11/17 12:48 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
CEB Offline
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Posts: 12542
That's good. I use that sometimes when my wife wants me to do something I don't want to do. I just wait it out and sort of ignore it and it sometimes goes away ..... probably because she knows what my behavior really means and decides to be considerate it of my feelings on the particular issue at hand.
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#2827384 - 01/11/17 12:49 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: drawback]
Reezekeys Offline
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Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 2217
Loc: NYC area
All the other players are making up their own detailed Sibelius charts in case any of them need to sub? Or is this honor only for the keyboardist?

Why do I think I already know the answer to this question? smile

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#2827385 - 01/11/17 12:54 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: drawback]
timwat Offline
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Either you trust the guys in this band, or you don't. And if you don't trust them, that doesn't mean you may not grow to trust them in the future, but let's not pretend they've earned your trust yet.

I would never have a problem generating clear, legible lead sheets for a sub. While some may disagree, I am happy to do that as a sign of good faith, helping a brother out, and helping my bandmates be more at ease when I can't be there. But anything more than that and I would respectfully decline.

"Accurate, detailed Sibelius transcriptions" sounds like far more than simple lead sheets. It sounds like an inordinate amount of (unpaid) work from which you derive NO benefit. In my neck of the woods, a high-level, credible sub is expected to step in and do the necessary work to adequately sub the gig based on YouTube links or similar audio - without expecting a shred of paper to assist. A sub may not be a 100% carbon copy, but a reasonable coverage of all the salient parts. This requires a bit of woodshedding unless clearly this is a musical theater-type sight-reading gig (and it doesn't sound like it is).

Others have brought up other necessary questions: Are we talking about primarily covers? Is there a copyright issue involved? What's the reason(s) we're talking about more than great, notated lead sheets?

I agree with drawback - musical communities are far too small to create intrigue, go behind someone's back or sh*t the bed. Everyone hears about it. And that goes for the long term as well. If these guys end up the kind of guys who will screw you over, take the charts and run to another player - they ain't the guys you want to be playing with anyway.
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#2827394 - 01/11/17 01:38 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
richforman Offline
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Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 1080
Loc: Long Island, NY
Not sure if this is an answer but it's my approach. I couldn't do what they're asking in this case because I don't use charts, I strive to memorize everything, so I certainly wouldn't create them just for potential future subs. If I think it's likely on joining a project that I may need to be subbed out for gigs in the future, what I'll do is let them know that I have my own network of good players I know from whom I'll *get* them a sub (if they want) when I can't make it. Since it'll be someone I know, I'll essentially be vouching for them that they will be able to be prepared and cut the gig (and the band doesn't have to worry about how that's going to happen). The guys I'd call to sub for me are guys who I know will do whatever's required to prepare for a gig as needed, just as I would for my own band or a sub date, without relying on any help from me. So then the chart issue would be moot. If they don't want me to do that, if they already have their own list of subs to call on, then I'd say the ball is in their court, not mine, to know that whoever they pick either knows, or can learn (without any help from me) the material.
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#2827395 - 01/11/17 01:44 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
Cabo Offline
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Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 94
Loc: Rochester, NY
O.P. here. Just to help clarify, the transcriptions are firstly for me to use to play the tunes -- so there is benefit to me to make them. I'm not creating them for a potential sub, I need to create them for me to play from. They're a lot more detailed than your typical lead sheet. They're not simple, 3 chord tunes.

These are all cover tunes; I don't own copyright.
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#2827401 - 01/11/17 02:17 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
timwat Offline
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Got it. So if eventually you're going have all these charts in your hand - I understand why the band is thinking "what's so hard about him just making some photocopies for a possible sub?"

At that point, I suppose the question is simply - how much do you trust your bandmates?

Now you have me curious - what tunes are you covering that require transcriptions for you to use the play them?
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#2827404 - 01/11/17 02:30 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
J. Dan Online   content
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Why do they need them now? Tell them if you end up needing a sub sometime, you'll provide the sub with what they need yourself.
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#2827409 - 01/11/17 02:39 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
Cabo Offline
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Loc: Rochester, NY
They're just pop/r&b tunes for a top 40 band. Lot of stuff with 2 things happening at once, like a fast string line over a Rhodes, etc. Some songs are more like lead sheets.

At this point, I really don't know the people very well, so trust is a question mark.
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#2827411 - 01/11/17 02:44 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: J. Dan]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Originally Posted By: J. Dan
Why do they need them now? Tell them if you end up needing a sub sometime, you'll provide the sub with what they need yourself.


I think this.
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#2827414 - 01/11/17 03:09 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Bobadohshe]
DanL Offline
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I guess I'm lucky in that I must be so valuable that if I can't make a gig the band doesn't play lol! Seriously though, when I'm asked to sub- I assume it's on me to learn the songs and chart them out as needed. I wouldn't ask the guy I'm subbing for or the bandleader to provide me charts.
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#2827415 - 01/11/17 03:21 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Bobadohshe]
mcgoo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bobadohshe

I'd be more willing to hand over the legit charts in printed form if you had more history with this band. Being new it's more of an unreasonable request on their part.


Well said.

I play with multiple bands and I go out of my way to make it as easy as possible for a sub by supplying charts , notes, etc. Makes them more likely to take the gig and the band less likely to be annoyed when I sub out. But I don't think you need to provide charts to a band that hasn't even gigged yet.
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#2827417 - 01/11/17 03:38 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: mcgoo]
MathOfInsects Offline
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On the other hand....this can happen sometimes for the most innocent and complimentary of reasons: they haven't got a clue how to make a chart, for anyone, and are glad to have someone around who can. They might not realize it's an imposition at all, more like relief to have someone around who knows more than they do.

I wouldn't proceed any differently, it just might help to see it as purely innocent, rather than anything underhanded.
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#2827418 - 01/11/17 03:41 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: mcgoo]
JCRoswell Offline
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Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 174
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
Clearly you're uncomfortable with handing over the lead sheets (I would be, too) so why not try honesty. Tell the band leader you are uncomfortable putting that much work into lead sheets for another professional keyboardist to use it free of charge. You could let him know that you're eager to help out the band, but that what you are creating is a ton of work that doesn't feel like it should be pro bono. You could always ask for time to think it over. It ain't like you're writing all of them by tomorrow anyway.

I wouldn't put off the conversation because the longer it goes the more the band leader is going to assume you are on board with it and then it will just be worse. Besides, he may have reasons beyond what we are all assuming and perhaps you can find a different way to meet those needs without feeling like you're screwing yourself.
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#2827424 - 01/11/17 04:23 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: MathOfInsects]
Wastrel Offline
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Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
...they haven't got a clue how to make a chart... They might not realize it's an imposition at all...

That's the problem I was trying to describe earlier. If he says no, they'll be thinking, "Geez, what a dick. What's the big deal?" Whether done intentionally or not, they have put him in a box.
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#2827429 - 01/11/17 05:12 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Wastrel]
16251 Offline
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I'd write charts with only chords and maybe an important line if it would keep people happy but my charts were hours of work and never did any leader recognize my work with a bonus or the importance of the sounds I added.
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#2827430 - 01/11/17 05:20 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: 16251]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 647
The thing is.... I've been called to sub a gig - 30-40 songs, no charts at all - just recordings. Now seriously, unless I know the songs, there's no way I will have time - much less get paid enough to learn all those songs for a low paying gig.

Now, lets say the band had charts - even chord charts - then the subbing may happen. It's in their best interest to have charts if they do one-off shows and need subs.

But even the most simplest of charts required me to listen to the song over and over and write out important parts and chords.

Heck even the beginning of 24K magic - I've seen the intro chords written so many ways - some of them wrong by even experienced musicians! So writing out charts takes time and effort.


Edited by aronnelson (01/11/17 05:20 PM)
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#2827433 - 01/11/17 05:36 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
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Honestly, when I'm subbing, I don't want the other guy's charts. As long as I know the key they do it in, and any different arrangement from the original, I'm going to do it my way and attempt to do it better than the guy I'm subbing for. Part of what makes me valuable as a sub is the fact that they can just shoot me a setlist and I can show up prepared to do it, without a bunch of hand holding. Yes, lots of pop tunes have multiple parts and no 2 people may approach them exactly the same way.
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#2827437 - 01/11/17 06:00 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: J. Dan]
aronnelson Offline
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Posts: 647
Wow, pretty amazing. For some of the bands here - they have their own arrangements - sometimes it's nice to be able to refer to a chart to help. To each his own though.
So if someone asked you to sub for a band with about 30 songs - let's say you know about 10, how much would you charge to learn those 20 songs for one gig?

In my experience, most of the bands that don't have any charts period, like to rehearse over and over too.
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#2827440 - 01/11/17 06:06 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
timwat Offline
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Aron,

For me in my local setting:

1) You don't charge anything to learn tunes you don't know. If you don't know them and you've accepted the gig - you're expected to show up ready for downbeat, no if's, and's or but's.

2) Most of the settings I'm in, there are NO rehearsals. Again, you're expected to show up with everything nailed.

3) Obviously, I don't play in many settings where bands have elaborate "own" arrangements. You create the arrangement in the moment, using big ears. If you don't have big ears and the chops to go with the flow in the moment, you don't get called back.

It may be my local scene here in the SF Bay Area is atypical - not really sure as I've never planted roots in any other scene.
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#2827443 - 01/11/17 06:32 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
drawback Offline
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Not atypical in my experience in Vancouver or anywhere else I've worked. One thing I've found is that some scenes have different "standards" from one city to the next, but once you've played them, they just add to your repertoire and credentials.

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#2827445 - 01/11/17 06:45 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: drawback]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 647
> It may be my local scene here in the SF Bay Area is atypical

I lived in the Bay Area for years - about 1985-1997 - I never needed many charts if at all. You are right - we mostly jammed and it was fun.

Over here it's much different - there are arrangements that modulate and have bizarre endings etc... Believe me, you need a chart. Sure, you can decide to wing it, but good luck - when I wish goes from Ebm to D and there are breaks in the song - no way can you just figure things out on the fly unless you have perfect pitch (which quite a few of the players seem to have).

One of the band's arrangement of Blue moon has so many changes that it would be quite a task to write out - much less memorize the chart.

When I was in the Bay Area - we jammed hard. Over here in Hawaii - most of the "jazz" guys read and read tons.

I tried to bring most of the "Bay Area" flavor to Hawaii - because reading all of this stuff is really hard.



Edited by aronnelson (01/11/17 06:49 PM)
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#2827446 - 01/11/17 06:45 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Originally Posted By: aronnelson
So if someone asked you to sub for a band with about 30 songs - let's say you know about 10, how much would you charge to learn those 20 songs for one gig?


Whatever you are being paid for the gig is your compensation end of story. If you can't learn the tunes you don't take the gig.

Sometimes if there's something particularly bearish and you haven't had a ton of time to shed it, the guys might cut you some slack.
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#2827447 - 01/11/17 06:50 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Bobadohshe]
aronnelson Offline
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>If you can't learn the tunes you don't take the gig

Yep, I turned it down. 30-40 songs with rehearsals every week for over 3 months - no charts, just recordings.

$50.

I guess I am getting old and spoiled. I used to do a ton of gigs in the Bay Area for $75. Then later we got a "good gig" for $125 at the Hedley Jazz Club in San Jose. Lots of serious cats would drive all the way down from Oakland to play with us at the Hedley.

Don't get me wrong, I still play Jazz gigs for nearly free when I want to, but if I have to sub and play most pop music - I want to get paid because it's work to have to play most pop music for me.

The weirdest part is I'm not really a Jazz musician - but I play a lot of those gigs. I make way more money playing mostly easy listening music and Hawaiian pop music with a somewhat famous Hawaiian band.


Edited by aronnelson (01/11/17 06:56 PM)
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#2827448 - 01/11/17 06:52 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
timwat Offline
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Weekly rehearsals for 3 months for a $50 gig...with Hawaii's cost of living??

Yikes.
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#2827449 - 01/11/17 07:12 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
Michael Wright Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
Weekly rehearsals for 3 months for a $50 gig...with Hawaii's cost of living??Yikes.
No heating bills at least, I heard. smile
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#2827450 - 01/11/17 07:16 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Michael Wright]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Michael Wright
Originally Posted By: timwat
Weekly rehearsals for 3 months for a $50 gig...with Hawaii's cost of living??Yikes.
No heating bills at least, I heard. smile


Yeah but $50 doesn't go far on hookers and poi.
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#2827464 - 01/11/17 08:14 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
J. Dan Online   content
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Originally Posted By: timwat
Aron,

For me in my local setting:

1) You don't charge anything to learn tunes you don't know. If you don't know them and you've accepted the gig - you're expected to show up ready for downbeat, no if's, and's or but's.

2) Most of the settings I'm in, there are NO rehearsals. Again, you're expected to show up with everything nailed.

3) Obviously, I don't play in many settings where bands have elaborate "own" arrangements. You create the arrangement in the moment, using big ears. If you don't have big ears and the chops to go with the flow in the moment, you don't get called back.

It may be my local scene here in the SF Bay Area is atypical - not really sure as I've never planted roots in any other scene.


This, exactly!

But I wouldn't take a gig like that for less than $200 and even then would want there to be future opportunities to sub using the work I put in. Prefer $300 or more.
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#2827465 - 01/11/17 08:17 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
DanL Offline
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Yeah no way I'd do that much work for 50 bucks. The 80's thing I did a couple months back was about 35 tunes, 3 rehearsals and then the show. I copped the sounds as close as I could get to the recordings and spent a fair amount of time learning the songs at home- but that is fun for me. I only got $200 for the gig but it was a benefit for a local theater company. The comraderie of playing with people that I knew, but had never played with, the fun of learning some cool tunes, the fee was good enough.
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#2827470 - 01/11/17 08:47 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: DanL]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Someone was griping to me about a gig, and said, "If you're not going to enjoy playing music, you might as well have a real job that pays better and not enjoy that."

Truth, huh?
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#2827476 - 01/11/17 10:19 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: MathOfInsects]
J. Dan Online   content
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Is it? I think there are folks who earn a living doing this. Just because we don't doesn't mean it isn't possible,
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#2827481 - 01/11/17 10:56 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: J. Dan]
Bobadohshe Offline
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$50 forget about it.
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#2827520 - 01/12/17 06:50 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Bobadohshe]
MotiDave Offline
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$50 to learn multi sets and practice endlessly ... yawn, im tired thinking about it. Gigs i do are more like TimW, except they will usually get together for one rehearsal just to find out if its a trainwreck or not. Everyone is to learn all material and be ready for downbeat before showing up. And then, they typically only will play 2/3 of the songs and sort of nod shrug and say "everyone good on the others?" Lol
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#2827524 - 01/12/17 07:10 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: MotiDave]
rickzjamm Offline
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I've been in that situation so many times... that just because I can I should for free. Unless the group your with are good friends I'd charge some fee for your work.
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#2827528 - 01/12/17 07:19 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: rickzjamm]
CEB Offline
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As long as you know what key the song is in and you get the one right then it is fine. Everything else can be a passing tone. There are only 12 notes and 7 of them are tonal. If you can hear the changes it should be good. Once a month I'm playing behind guest performers and it is all a surprise. It works..... as long you aren't trying to pull off Duel of the Jester and the Tyrant parts I & II just like the record.
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#2827565 - 01/12/17 08:48 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
WesG Offline
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Quote:
need to create them for me to play from


You need to memorize your parts. That was the hardest thing for me to do when I transitioned from total amateur to working amateur. Lose the charts. It's fine to have them at home for reference, but ideally the band should not even be aware of their existence.

Once your charts are off your music stand and in your head, you will have more fun, you will play better, and the audience will have more fun.

Wes
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#2827567 - 01/12/17 08:51 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: WesG]
richforman Offline
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"if you're readin', you ain't rockin'" !
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#2827575 - 01/12/17 09:25 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: richforman]
CEB Offline
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Amen!

That said I have a number notation chart for every tune the Pop band does on a tablet running Mobile Sheets Pro. My problem is I can blank out on the damn song titles. I know the tune once I know which tune it is and I start most of them. LOL.

I'm too old for this shit.


Edited by CEB (01/12/17 09:26 AM)
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#2827591 - 01/12/17 10:01 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: CEB]
MathOfInsects Offline
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I, too, am famous for not knowing song titles.

I've gone back and forth the "reading" issue over the years. I used to memorize everything--not even intentionally, just a thing that would happen as I played through a song the first time. But as more and more gigs were with new groups and new material, often a couple different services of one kind or another in a day, the choice was often, read and nail it all, or memorize and risk a brain-cloud here and there. In a hired-gun situation, brain clouds are not a desirable trait.

So in general, I'll use my ipad for my notes during a first "engagement" (rehearsal or gig), with red ink for any "hey, look out, danger ahead" issues to keep me from noticing squirrels, keep it as a security blanket during a second "engagement," and be generally off-book by a third engagement.

But lately....I've been shifting back to memorizing almost everything. My theory is that "listening for what the chart will say" for so many years, has got me listening in a way that makes stuff stickier from the beginning, even with unfamiliar material. I think the "touring guy"'s "no charts, no notes, no setlists" rule might have been the thing that pushed this back over the edge. So I've been bareback again on most of my most recent gigs, local and otherwise.
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#2827599 - 01/12/17 10:23 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: MathOfInsects]
aronnelson Offline
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>Once your charts are off your music stand and in your head, you will have more fun, you will play better, and the audience will have more fun.

That's what I said, until they pointed out that big bands and many other situations have many people reading.

I came from the Bay area never reading much and let me tell you, it's really hard to read these charts and execute them properly WITH feeling and and having fun.

I think that most of you may find these charts challenging and actually fun to play because they are so complex.

The good part about Hawaii is that they still use lots of horn players.
In any case, sorry, I made this thread stray off course.

In my case, I do share charts but in several bands defense, they pay for the charts. I just charged a band for a chart of a pop song, they said they would pay for it, so I charged them a nominal fee. Everyone is happy.
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#2827610 - 01/12/17 11:12 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
Cabo Offline
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Posts: 94
Loc: Rochester, NY
OP here again -- just wanted to thank everyone for your input.

You've confirmed my feeling about the whole thing. I'll probably just push back on the request to make up a "book". Once there's actually a need for a sub, I'll address it with the sub myself.
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#2827612 - 01/12/17 11:26 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
Steve Nathan Offline
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I have no experience in this area, but I'd just tell them:
"Don't worry. I have them on my computer and will email them to anyone who subs for me".
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#2827640 - 01/12/17 12:19 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Steve Nathan]
WesG Offline
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Quote:
That's what I said, until they pointed out that big bands and many other situations have many people reading.


A big band is a completely different animal. The OP is asking about Pop/Top40 band.

I never read with my rock band. I always read with big bands. Memorizing big band charts is a thousand times more difficult than pop charts.

BTW, if you are reading big band charts on piano and playing them verbatim, you are doing it wrong.

Wes
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#2827648 - 01/12/17 12:26 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: WesG]
aronnelson Offline
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>BTW, if you are reading big band charts on piano and playing them verbatim, you are doing it wrong.

Thank you for the advice.
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#2827754 - 01/12/17 07:07 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
WesG Offline
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You're welcome. I love our role in the big band. Reading, listening, interpreting, flavoring all at once. It's an uncommon joy. A lot of the thoughts in here are foundational to my playing.

http://www.kurtellenberger.com/Chart_to_Reality.pdf


Edited by WesG (01/12/17 07:09 PM)
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#2827833 - 01/13/17 06:29 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
Joe BrokeIt Offline
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The OP's band hasn't gigged yet, which makes me wonder, do they even have a gig booked? Or is this a bandleader who is doing more "planning" (dreaming, really) than actually getting and doing work?

IOW, is the cart coming before the horse? If so, watch out. The thing is really hard to steer when it does that. smile

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#2827957 - 01/13/17 02:15 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
Al Quinn Online   content
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Registered: 08/13/14
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Let me see if I have this right:
- the OP doesn't know the band well
- the band has no gigs
- the band wants the OP to create a book of charts so they can give them to a sub

If this is the case, it smells funny to me. I question the bands intent and whether they're morally and ethically sound.

At this point I wouldn't give them my charts and I wouldn't put any extra effort into making my charts more readable for others. If a gig did come up where a sub is needed it will likely not be for a while and hopefully things will become clearer regarding the type of people running this band. It should be clearer what to do at that point. But I wouldn't spend any extra time making my charts more readable for someone else.
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#2827971 - 01/13/17 03:07 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Joe BrokeIt]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
The OP's band hasn't gigged yet, which makes me wonder, do they even have a gig booked? Or is this a bandleader who is doing more "planning" (dreaming, really) than actually getting and doing work?

IOW, is the chart coming before the horse?


Fixed.
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#2827973 - 01/13/17 03:17 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: MathOfInsects]
aronnelson Offline
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>I love our role in the big band.

Thanks for the link!
It was amazing to read Frank Sinatra's actual arrangements with the big band here!
Jimmy Borge's who recently passed was one of the few that Frank lent his charts to.
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#2828083 - 01/14/17 06:40 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: WesG]
Al Quinn Online   content
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Originally Posted By: WesG
You're welcome. I love our role in the big band. Reading, listening, interpreting, flavoring all at once. It's an uncommon joy. A lot of the thoughts in here are foundational to my playing.

http://www.kurtellenberger.com/Chart_to_Reality.pdf


Great article. Thanks! I wish I had read that forty years ago. Instead I learned this info on gigs which was at times uncomfortable.
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#2828100 - 01/14/17 08:12 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Al Quinn]
David Loving Offline
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Thanks for the article, WesG. I could have used this information in 1960! I have never been good at this. The last time I played with a big band the first chart was a Tommy Newsome, Tonight Show, tune I'd never heard before with horns' chord changes about 4 to a bar! I layed out a lot, but I got a glissando right.


Edited by David Loving (01/14/17 08:15 AM)
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#2828102 - 01/14/17 08:19 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Al Quinn]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1798
Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
To me the premise of this thread is wrong. It's the band leader who provides the charts. If they need a sub, the sub shows up, they hand him the book, he gives it back after the gig, that's it.

If I got a call from a new group, the first thing being talked about is the set list. If it's a bunch of tunes I've never done before I'll ask do you have charts for this stuff? If the answer is no, I would probably turn the gig down. I say probably because that's never happened. Everybody has their books of charts for the band or I do know enough of the material anyway.

If this is a new group and they want you to help with creating their book, that's a straight up business deal. You get paid for the charts and if you get some gigs too, fine.

Bob

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#2828140 - 01/14/17 11:00 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Jazzmammal]
aronnelson Offline
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Bob, that's the way it works here.
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#2828203 - 01/14/17 06:25 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
Ledbetter Offline
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Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 215
Loc: California
I'm with Bob. If they know the songs, they can make their own charts. That said, I quit a band recently and gave them computer files of my notes to help them get a new keyboard player (who'll probably leave them after they become familiar with the value placed on keys by that band. Refer to

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2782778/1

For an example.)

That was in November. The last I heard of them was a message I got asking if I knew how to put a new battery in a Roland JX-8P. You have to solder in a new battery holder and I offered to do it for them. I like to keep things amicable. No reply, not even a "No, but thanks."

I do sometimes share my notes to help a band member learn a new-to-them song.

Anyway, I vote "no" on giving them your notes, especially if you put a lot of time into them and haven't played out with them yet. Good luck.
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#2828261 - 01/15/17 08:09 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Ledbetter]
Baldwin Funster Offline
Has been warned....
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I dont hear about other musicians being asked for charts. Ask a guitar player to provide a chart for a sub and youll either get a laugh or a blank stare.
.
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#2828384 - 01/15/17 07:17 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Baldwin Funster]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 647
Not here. A lot of great readers and players here. They can write charts and with pen too transposing parts by hand.
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#2828555 - 01/16/17 10:23 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
Musicale Offline
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Registered: 01/11/08
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Loc: Naperville, IL
I trust they provided you charts from the existing player...

I would not provide them chats, perhaps refer them to a fake book readily available...

Musicale

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#2829232 - 01/18/17 06:36 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Musicale]
ngk Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/15
Posts: 7
Bob is RIGHT. It is the leader's responsibility to have his set list and charts together so he can pull off a gig with minimal rehearsal with whoever is available. If you are on the level of actually having gigs........if not, you are an amateur. He should pay something if he uses YOUR charts. I've been called with short notice to play quite a few all original gigs, and if the charts are not together, I decline. I should mention that all my original PDF charts are on my Dropbox with CD and live mp3 versions. Just a couple of clicks and any musician in the world can prepare to do the gig right.

Here is some perspective.....Paying dues when I was new in LA on party/casuals and little jazz gigs was an eye-opener: every leader and the extra singer had a book/folder and passed it out. PRO. Less stress. Every player brings his own music stand and light. (duh..)

I've dealt with this many times as MD, and with big pop and R&B artists on all-star cruises, etc. who rarely have it all together. Being that the house band will have to play over 100 songs with 8 different artists, and for this each artist gets 1- 3 hour rehearsal a week or two BEFORE the concerts. The musicians get hired to do homework and rehearse and play. Not transcribe.

I always tell artists to hire someone (usually their keyboardist or MD) to make MASTER RHYTHM charts for your most important tunes at least. The intros and endings MUST be charted exactly as they perform it live!!! (why waste 5-10 min. of rehearsal time for each song, dictating your endings and cues because you only sent the CD versions of the songs or charts from the original session that had no ending?) It is a good investment, especially if you are asked to do a TV show with a house band or some other kind of 'walk-on'. It is a great feeling when an artist like Michael McDonald gets a big smile on his face during the first tune of a rehearsal - and it goes from there to make a great performance. That is only possible if the advance work has been taken care of.

One particular sax superstar argued that if he provides charts, the guitar player won't learn the parts off the record. Well, that is a non-sequitur. The guitar player should use all assets; the recordings and charts to make his parts match, and make little pencil notes if needed, while having a chart to guide him thru the roadmap.

I can recommend bassist Mel Brown's book: "From Zero to Sideman", with great tips on these issues and general professionalism. Also, Ricky Minor's book. "There’s No Traffic on the Extra Mile: Lessons on the Road From Dreams to Destiny".

Dropbox and Forscore (ipad) are your most important tools. BTW, a cool, notation app for iPad is made by Kawai. Touch Notation. Very flexible for quick lead sheets, etc.

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