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#2827433 - 01/11/17 05:36 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
J. Dan Offline
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Loc: St. Louis, MO
Honestly, when I'm subbing, I don't want the other guy's charts. As long as I know the key they do it in, and any different arrangement from the original, I'm going to do it my way and attempt to do it better than the guy I'm subbing for. Part of what makes me valuable as a sub is the fact that they can just shoot me a setlist and I can show up prepared to do it, without a bunch of hand holding. Yes, lots of pop tunes have multiple parts and no 2 people may approach them exactly the same way.
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#2827437 - 01/11/17 06:00 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: J. Dan]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 495
Wow, pretty amazing. For some of the bands here - they have their own arrangements - sometimes it's nice to be able to refer to a chart to help. To each his own though.
So if someone asked you to sub for a band with about 30 songs - let's say you know about 10, how much would you charge to learn those 20 songs for one gig?

In my experience, most of the bands that don't have any charts period, like to rehearse over and over too.
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#2827440 - 01/11/17 06:06 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
timwat Offline
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 4949
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Aron,

For me in my local setting:

1) You don't charge anything to learn tunes you don't know. If you don't know them and you've accepted the gig - you're expected to show up ready for downbeat, no if's, and's or but's.

2) Most of the settings I'm in, there are NO rehearsals. Again, you're expected to show up with everything nailed.

3) Obviously, I don't play in many settings where bands have elaborate "own" arrangements. You create the arrangement in the moment, using big ears. If you don't have big ears and the chops to go with the flow in the moment, you don't get called back.

It may be my local scene here in the SF Bay Area is atypical - not really sure as I've never planted roots in any other scene.
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#2827443 - 01/11/17 06:32 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
drawback Offline
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Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 2938
Loc: Victoria, BC Canada
Not atypical in my experience in Vancouver or anywhere else I've worked. One thing I've found is that some scenes have different "standards" from one city to the next, but once you've played them, they just add to your repertoire and credentials.

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#2827445 - 01/11/17 06:45 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: drawback]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 495
> It may be my local scene here in the SF Bay Area is atypical

I lived in the Bay Area for years - about 1985-1997 - I never needed many charts if at all. You are right - we mostly jammed and it was fun.

Over here it's much different - there are arrangements that modulate and have bizarre endings etc... Believe me, you need a chart. Sure, you can decide to wing it, but good luck - when I wish goes from Ebm to D and there are breaks in the song - no way can you just figure things out on the fly unless you have perfect pitch (which quite a few of the players seem to have).

One of the band's arrangement of Blue moon has so many changes that it would be quite a task to write out - much less memorize the chart.

When I was in the Bay Area - we jammed hard. Over here in Hawaii - most of the "jazz" guys read and read tons.

I tried to bring most of the "Bay Area" flavor to Hawaii - because reading all of this stuff is really hard.



Edited by aronnelson (01/11/17 06:49 PM)
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#2827446 - 01/11/17 06:45 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 5414
Loc: San Diego / Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: aronnelson
So if someone asked you to sub for a band with about 30 songs - let's say you know about 10, how much would you charge to learn those 20 songs for one gig?


Whatever you are being paid for the gig is your compensation end of story. If you can't learn the tunes you don't take the gig.

Sometimes if there's something particularly bearish and you haven't had a ton of time to shed it, the guys might cut you some slack.
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#2827447 - 01/11/17 06:50 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Bobadohshe]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 495
>If you can't learn the tunes you don't take the gig

Yep, I turned it down. 30-40 songs with rehearsals every week for over 3 months - no charts, just recordings.

$50.

I guess I am getting old and spoiled. I used to do a ton of gigs in the Bay Area for $75. Then later we got a "good gig" for $125 at the Hedley Jazz Club in San Jose. Lots of serious cats would drive all the way down from Oakland to play with us at the Hedley.

Don't get me wrong, I still play Jazz gigs for nearly free when I want to, but if I have to sub and play most pop music - I want to get paid because it's work to have to play most pop music for me.

The weirdest part is I'm not really a Jazz musician - but I play a lot of those gigs. I make way more money playing mostly easy listening music and Hawaiian pop music with a somewhat famous Hawaiian band.


Edited by aronnelson (01/11/17 06:56 PM)
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#2827448 - 01/11/17 06:52 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
timwat Offline
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 4949
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Weekly rehearsals for 3 months for a $50 gig...with Hawaii's cost of living??

Yikes.
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#2827449 - 01/11/17 07:12 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
Michael Wright Offline
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Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 2444
Originally Posted By: timwat
Weekly rehearsals for 3 months for a $50 gig...with Hawaii's cost of living??Yikes.
No heating bills at least, I heard. smile
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#2827450 - 01/11/17 07:16 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Michael Wright]
timwat Offline
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Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 4949
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: Michael Wright
Originally Posted By: timwat
Weekly rehearsals for 3 months for a $50 gig...with Hawaii's cost of living??Yikes.
No heating bills at least, I heard. smile


Yeah but $50 doesn't go far on hookers and poi.
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#2827464 - 01/11/17 08:14 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 10281
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: timwat
Aron,

For me in my local setting:

1) You don't charge anything to learn tunes you don't know. If you don't know them and you've accepted the gig - you're expected to show up ready for downbeat, no if's, and's or but's.

2) Most of the settings I'm in, there are NO rehearsals. Again, you're expected to show up with everything nailed.

3) Obviously, I don't play in many settings where bands have elaborate "own" arrangements. You create the arrangement in the moment, using big ears. If you don't have big ears and the chops to go with the flow in the moment, you don't get called back.

It may be my local scene here in the SF Bay Area is atypical - not really sure as I've never planted roots in any other scene.


This, exactly!

But I wouldn't take a gig like that for less than $200 and even then would want there to be future opportunities to sub using the work I put in. Prefer $300 or more.
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#2827465 - 01/11/17 08:17 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: timwat]
DanL Offline
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Registered: 09/22/05
Posts: 3612
Loc: DE
Yeah no way I'd do that much work for 50 bucks. The 80's thing I did a couple months back was about 35 tunes, 3 rehearsals and then the show. I copped the sounds as close as I could get to the recordings and spent a fair amount of time learning the songs at home- but that is fun for me. I only got $200 for the gig but it was a benefit for a local theater company. The comraderie of playing with people that I knew, but had never played with, the fun of learning some cool tunes, the fee was good enough.
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#2827470 - 01/11/17 08:47 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: DanL]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Loc: California
Someone was griping to me about a gig, and said, "If you're not going to enjoy playing music, you might as well have a real job that pays better and not enjoy that."

Truth, huh?
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#2827476 - 01/11/17 10:19 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: MathOfInsects]
J. Dan Offline
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Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 10281
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Is it? I think there are folks who earn a living doing this. Just because we don't doesn't mean it isn't possible,
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2827481 - 01/11/17 10:56 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: J. Dan]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 5414
Loc: San Diego / Los Angeles
$50 forget about it.
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#2827520 - 01/12/17 06:50 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Bobadohshe]
MotiDave Offline
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Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1295
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
$50 to learn multi sets and practice endlessly ... yawn, im tired thinking about it. Gigs i do are more like TimW, except they will usually get together for one rehearsal just to find out if its a trainwreck or not. Everyone is to learn all material and be ready for downbeat before showing up. And then, they typically only will play 2/3 of the songs and sort of nod shrug and say "everyone good on the others?" Lol
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#2827524 - 01/12/17 07:10 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: MotiDave]
rickzjamm Offline
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Registered: 11/05/13
Posts: 600
I've been in that situation so many times... that just because I can I should for free. Unless the group your with are good friends I'd charge some fee for your work.
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#2827528 - 01/12/17 07:19 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: rickzjamm]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 11901
As long as you know what key the song is in and you get the one right then it is fine. Everything else can be a passing tone. There are only 12 notes and 7 of them are tonal. If you can hear the changes it should be good. Once a month I'm playing behind guest performers and it is all a surprise. It works..... as long you aren't trying to pull off Duel of the Jester and the Tyrant parts I & II just like the record.

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#2827565 - 01/12/17 08:48 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
WesG Online   shocked
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Registered: 02/16/13
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Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
Quote:
need to create them for me to play from


You need to memorize your parts. That was the hardest thing for me to do when I transitioned from total amateur to working amateur. Lose the charts. It's fine to have them at home for reference, but ideally the band should not even be aware of their existence.

Once your charts are off your music stand and in your head, you will have more fun, you will play better, and the audience will have more fun.

Wes
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#2827567 - 01/12/17 08:51 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: WesG]
richforman Offline
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Loc: Long Island, NY
"if you're readin', you ain't rockin'" !
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#2827575 - 01/12/17 09:25 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: richforman]
CEB Offline
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Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 11901
Amen!

That said I have a number notation chart for every tune the Pop band does on a tablet running Mobile Sheets Pro. My problem is I can blank out on the damn song titles. I know the tune once I know which tune it is and I start most of them. LOL.

I'm too old for this shit.


Edited by CEB (01/12/17 09:26 AM)

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#2827591 - 01/12/17 10:01 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: CEB]
MathOfInsects Offline
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Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2075
Loc: California
I, too, am famous for not knowing song titles.

I've gone back and forth the "reading" issue over the years. I used to memorize everything--not even intentionally, just a thing that would happen as I played through a song the first time. But as more and more gigs were with new groups and new material, often a couple different services of one kind or another in a day, the choice was often, read and nail it all, or memorize and risk a brain-cloud here and there. In a hired-gun situation, brain clouds are not a desirable trait.

So in general, I'll use my ipad for my notes during a first "engagement" (rehearsal or gig), with red ink for any "hey, look out, danger ahead" issues to keep me from noticing squirrels, keep it as a security blanket during a second "engagement," and be generally off-book by a third engagement.

But lately....I've been shifting back to memorizing almost everything. My theory is that "listening for what the chart will say" for so many years, has got me listening in a way that makes stuff stickier from the beginning, even with unfamiliar material. I think the "touring guy"'s "no charts, no notes, no setlists" rule might have been the thing that pushed this back over the edge. So I've been bareback again on most of my most recent gigs, local and otherwise.
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#2827599 - 01/12/17 10:23 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: MathOfInsects]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 495
>Once your charts are off your music stand and in your head, you will have more fun, you will play better, and the audience will have more fun.

That's what I said, until they pointed out that big bands and many other situations have many people reading.

I came from the Bay area never reading much and let me tell you, it's really hard to read these charts and execute them properly WITH feeling and and having fun.

I think that most of you may find these charts challenging and actually fun to play because they are so complex.

The good part about Hawaii is that they still use lots of horn players.
In any case, sorry, I made this thread stray off course.

In my case, I do share charts but in several bands defense, they pay for the charts. I just charged a band for a chart of a pop song, they said they would pay for it, so I charged them a nominal fee. Everyone is happy.
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#2827610 - 01/12/17 11:12 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
Cabo Offline
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Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 85
Loc: Rochester, NY
OP here again -- just wanted to thank everyone for your input.

You've confirmed my feeling about the whole thing. I'll probably just push back on the request to make up a "book". Once there's actually a need for a sub, I'll address it with the sub myself.
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#2827612 - 01/12/17 11:26 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
Steve Nathan Offline
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Registered: 01/06/06
Posts: 2819
Loc: Nashville, TN
I have no experience in this area, but I'd just tell them:
"Don't worry. I have them on my computer and will email them to anyone who subs for me".
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#2827640 - 01/12/17 12:19 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Steve Nathan]
WesG Online   shocked
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Quote:
That's what I said, until they pointed out that big bands and many other situations have many people reading.


A big band is a completely different animal. The OP is asking about Pop/Top40 band.

I never read with my rock band. I always read with big bands. Memorizing big band charts is a thousand times more difficult than pop charts.

BTW, if you are reading big band charts on piano and playing them verbatim, you are doing it wrong.

Wes
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#2827648 - 01/12/17 12:26 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: WesG]
aronnelson Offline
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Registered: 09/04/14
Posts: 495
>BTW, if you are reading big band charts on piano and playing them verbatim, you are doing it wrong.

Thank you for the advice.
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#2827754 - 01/12/17 07:07 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: aronnelson]
WesG Online   shocked
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Registered: 02/16/13
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Loc: Inverary, ON, Canada
You're welcome. I love our role in the big band. Reading, listening, interpreting, flavoring all at once. It's an uncommon joy. A lot of the thoughts in here are foundational to my playing.

http://www.kurtellenberger.com/Chart_to_Reality.pdf


Edited by WesG (01/12/17 07:09 PM)
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#2827833 - 01/13/17 06:29 AM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Cabo]
Joe Muscara Offline
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The OP's band hasn't gigged yet, which makes me wonder, do they even have a gig booked? Or is this a bandleader who is doing more "planning" (dreaming, really) than actually getting and doing work?

IOW, is the cart coming before the horse? If so, watch out. The thing is really hard to steer when it does that. smile

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#2827957 - 01/13/17 02:15 PM Re: Providing Charts For A Sub [Re: Joe Muscara]
Al Quinn Offline
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Registered: 08/13/14
Posts: 634
Loc: Center Moriches, NY
Let me see if I have this right:
- the OP doesn't know the band well
- the band has no gigs
- the band wants the OP to create a book of charts so they can give them to a sub

If this is the case, it smells funny to me. I question the bands intent and whether they're morally and ethically sound.

At this point I wouldn't give them my charts and I wouldn't put any extra effort into making my charts more readable for others. If a gig did come up where a sub is needed it will likely not be for a while and hopefully things will become clearer regarding the type of people running this band. It should be clearer what to do at that point. But I wouldn't spend any extra time making my charts more readable for someone else.
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