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#2825887 - 01/04/17 06:49 PM Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you?
Ensenada Guide Offline
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example like sample tank 2 now can do splits and layers
and and now in app purchase sounds sound better than before
also korg with is i wavestation etc . still NOt a Pro sound
for most of you?

I would buy them if i could just find my ipad
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#2825892 - 01/04/17 07:01 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Ensenada Guide]
t9cstudio Offline
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Loc: TX
If you have access to Amazon, you can get refurbished 128g iPads for far less than new, then you can become a true iPad musico.
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#2825895 - 01/04/17 07:30 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: t9cstudio]
Ensenada Guide Offline
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I have one i just cant find it, looks sound still not interesting for you pro guys smile
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#2825939 - 01/05/17 03:21 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Ensenada Guide]
TomKittel Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 354
No pro guy here. But I am using my iPad a lot with Korg PlugKey interface. This cool little tool converts the iPad to a real synth expander.

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#2825948 - 01/05/17 04:50 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: TomKittel]
Stokely Offline
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Loc: Florida
I'm very interested in the idea for sure. I use laptops at home for music but have resisted the idea of computers or ipads for live use, just a "trust" thing that everything is going to work right every time. Especially for those gigs that you are in a big hurry. The ipad would be easier than a computer since you could velcro it any number of places and take it with you offstage more easily (I'd worry about theft with a laptop).

All that said, I recently had a hardware synth die on me during a gig, so hardware is no guarantee for everything working. If I can find: 1. good-enough software with all the sounds I need and 2. hardware that both charges and provides pro audio outputs, then it's something I would consider. We already have an ipad, and like you we have misplaced another one......:P

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#2825955 - 01/05/17 05:07 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Stokely]
TomKittel Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 354
Originally Posted By: Stokely


If I can find: 1. good-enough software with all the sounds I need and

Plenty of good enough software available from Korg, Arturia and many many other vendors
Originally Posted By: Stokely

2. hardware that both charges and provides pro audio outputs, then it's something I would consider.

Korg PlugKey provides exactly that plus regular Midi Input

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#2825957 - 01/05/17 05:14 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: TomKittel]
RABid Offline
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Other than cost I see no benefit of using an iPad over a notebook. I do see many advantages of using a notebook over an iPad.
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#2826030 - 01/05/17 09:19 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
Ensenada Guide Offline
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Registered: 01/20/16
Posts: 248
Loc: Baja Mexico Ensenada
what i like about it is the latency. and almost crash free performance?
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#2826054 - 01/05/17 10:09 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
Other than cost I see no benefit of using an iPad over a notebook. I do see many advantages of using a notebook over an iPad.

A tablet is ergonomically better than a Mac laptop in a live rig... you can much more easily place it conveniently, and operate it by touch. It's a tougher call against a Windows tablet which shares those iPad attributes, but the iPad still has advantages in the fact that all its apps are touch-optimized, and that initial configuration (albeit within the greater limits of what it can do) is much more plug-and-play.
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#2826190 - 01/05/17 11:42 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
midinut Offline
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If Apple would port Mainstage over to iOS, they would clean up, especially if it included all the Logic instruments. I'd even pay bigger bucks for that app. I'm trying to integrate my MBP into my live rig as is. I may look closer at that PlugKey to create a secondary rig. Maybe for rehearsals?

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#2826195 - 01/06/17 03:25 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

A tablet is ergonomically better than a Mac laptop in a live rig... you can much more easily place it conveniently, and operate it by touch. It's a tougher call against a Windows tablet which shares those iPad attributes, but the iPad still has advantages in the fact that all its apps are touch-optimized, and that initial configuration (albeit within the greater limits of what it can do) is much more plug-and-play.


Could you provide a list of widely used VST's that are available on Windows that are not "touch optimised" in your experience. Big call given MS promote Windows 10 as touch optimised on desktop, laptop, tablet and phone, or maybe not, compared to iOS, once you provide some examples.

And any examples of how iOS is superior to Windows 10 from a plug and play perspective?
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#2826203 - 01/06/17 05:13 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: TomKittel]
Stokely Offline
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Originally Posted By: TomKittel
Originally Posted By: Stokely


If I can find: 1. good-enough software with all the sounds I need and

Plenty of good enough software available from Korg, Arturia and many many other vendors
Originally Posted By: Stokely

2. hardware that both charges and provides pro audio outputs, then it's something I would consider.

Korg PlugKey provides exactly that plus regular Midi Input



Excellent info, thanks for that-- I haven't kept up with ipad hardware, I'll be checking out the plugkey.

The problem with sounds has been getting "bread and butter" sounds. Synths seem easy to come by, but I don't really use synth much in my current band. Then again--I'd likely be pairing the ipad/controller with a second hardware board, and I could make sure that board could cover most sounds in a pinch. I could see a pretty nice rig with a Nord electro plus the ipad...The electro's weakness would be the ipad's strength (synth). Get a light controller and that would be one easy rig to transport. Since my pc3 had an "episode" I've been taking our singer's Juno D to gigs just in case...that thing is feather light and could be used as the controller.

The logistics thing brought up by AnotherScott is pretty huge to me. It would be somewhat of a pain to try to get my macbook on stage, while the ipad could probably just be velcroed to something. I have the full-size ipad though, for this use it would be nice to have the smaller one.

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#2826223 - 01/06/17 05:55 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: RABid
Other than cost I see no benefit of using an iPad over a notebook. I do see many advantages of using a notebook over an iPad.

A tablet is ergonomically better than a Mac laptop in a live rig... you can much more easily place it conveniently, and operate it by touch. It's a tougher call against a Windows tablet which shares those iPad attributes, but the iPad still has advantages in the fact that all its apps are touch-optimized, and that initial configuration (albeit within the greater limits of what it can do) is much more plug-and-play.


I find it easier to sit a notebook on the right side of my JP80, Virus TI or any other keyboard with a knob-free flat area than to come up with a mount for the iPad. I could lay the iPad on the same spot but they are easier to slide around and I prefer to view an upright screen. Also, lack of touch on my MacBookPro does not really bother me. I find a mouse pointer to be more exact than the fat tip of my finger and a proper keyboard really speeds up searching for a sound. Most of all, the ability to use a proper sound card and Mainstage puts a notebook on a different level than a iPad. For me, an iPad is like having a single rack mount ROMpler attached to the keyboard. A notebook with Mainstage is like having a rack full of ROMplers, samplers and synths managed with a custom interface.

I'm not saying that an iPad is not usable. I am saying that after using a proper notebook, using an iPad seems very restrictive.
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#2826284 - 01/06/17 11:00 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Stokely]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Actually, I have both a standard size and mini iPad. The mini does have Lightning connector and is easier to carry around, but the larger screen on the full size one is an advantage for touch control with some apps.
I have a very good selection of most any sound I need. Primary sound source is Korg Module, and I purchased all of the in-app expansions that are available.
Ivory - the Steinway D grand is not quite up to the full size Ivory, but it works very well. The base pianos are also good.

Wurley - adds some very useful Wurly patches.

Vintage Organ - adds additional Hammond/Leslie patches. Only thing missing is full control of drawbars (I have Galileo and use that if I need, but the Leslie sim is better in Module).

Triton - 100 patches culled from the Korg Triton - lots of variety in this add-in.

80's Electric Piano - many patches from Rhodes (there are some in the base package), early Yamaha (some may like, others may not), FM piano.

Mellow Tape - get 'yer Mellotron fixes right here.

All of the above in a single app - several hundred possible patches. I find that I use Module alone about 90% of the time.

Other apps that I find useful: Animoog synth, Autoharp (play it right from the screen), Cleartune (a tuner app), Galileo Organ (as mentioned above), iCathedral Organ (pipe organs), iFretless Bass (use the screen like a fretboard to play or can MIDI control), iFretless Brass, iFretless Sax( There is also a Guitar app), Korg iM1, Waldorf Nave synth.

I use the iPad as an added sound module much of the time. A better Hammond/Leslie than the PC3 Leslie. However, I do use the iPad alone (with controller) for "quickies" like when the choir performs two numbers in a choral sing event.

I have a Macbook Pro with Mainstage - probably better for some things, but can't beat the iPad for simple "git her done." I even have Module and part of the add-ins on the iPhone 6 for ultra-minature setup. Nice load in and out like a piccolo player.

I did at one time use a Windows notebook, docking station, and Audio/MIDI card. Found that the extra precision of the mouse didn't really help if I was trying to play with one hand, and mouse about on the screen to move drawbars with the other. Way too fidgety overall. Setup time, concern over breakage or theft.

I would have the iPads anyhow for use in my work - just made sure to get larger memory to have room for the apps. I have maybe $125 or so total invested in all the apps, Lightning/USB cable, and audio cable.
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#2826400 - 01/07/17 01:07 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
zephonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

A tablet is ergonomically better than a Mac laptop in a live rig... you can much more easily place it conveniently, and operate it by touch. It's a tougher call against a Windows tablet which shares those iPad attributes, but the iPad still has advantages in the fact that all its apps are touch-optimized, and that initial configuration (albeit within the greater limits of what it can do) is much more plug-and-play.


Could you provide a list of widely used VST's that are available on Windows that are not "touch optimised" in your experience. Big call given MS promote Windows 10 as touch optimised on desktop, laptop, tablet and phone, or maybe not, compared to iOS, once you provide some examples.

And any examples of how iOS is superior to Windows 10 from a plug and play perspective?


No VST instruments I know of are currently optimized for touch. Their GUI's are all designed for point and click.

Core Audio and Core MIDI make iOS great for this stuff right out of the box. Windows doesn't have that.


On a different note, I would prefer to use an iPad over a laptop for VI use. Once ARM approaches performance parity with x86 and the devs redesign their GUI's for multi-touch operation, I see no advantages in sticking with MacOS.


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#2826435 - 01/07/17 08:50 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: zephonic]
hurricane hugo Offline
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well, there's this: https://www.synclavier.com/
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#2826439 - 01/07/17 09:52 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: hurricane hugo]
Roland_Guy Offline
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24GB piano's for iOS

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/colossus-piano/id1122637899?mt=8

Are we starting to see more notebook sized instruments headed to iOS. I see iPad Air 2 is recommended.
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#2826467 - 01/07/17 11:53 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Roland_Guy]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roland_Guy
24GB piano's for iOS

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/colossus-piano/id1122637899?mt=8

Are we starting to see more notebook sized instruments headed to iOS. I see iPad Air 2 is recommended.

Interesting! Actually, it's 3 sets of piano samples, one is 14 GB, one is 6 GB, and one is 3.4 GB; and they recommend that the 14 GB one only be used on newer i-devices that have at least 2 GB of RAM in them. Still, I think this is the first app which can actually play a sample set that is substantially larger than the available memory (RAM). Since no one had done this, I wasn't even sure iOS supported it.
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#2826505 - 01/07/17 03:39 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
roygbiv Offline
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Korg Module with all its controls mapped to a cheap MIDI controller (used Korg Nanoktroller or Arturia units can be found for less than $50).

Pretty nice sound module for less than $100 total.

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#2826694 - 01/08/17 04:23 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay

Could you provide a list of widely used VST's that are available on Windows that are not "touch optimised" in your experience. Big call given MS promote Windows 10 as touch optimised on desktop, laptop, tablet and phone, or maybe not, compared to iOS, once you provide some examples.

Regardless of Microsoft's claim, I find it difficult to navigate Windows entirely by touch on a 10" tablet (standard iPad size), and practically impossible on an 8" tablet (iPad Mini size). Menus, dialog boxes, etc., are all too small and close together. I'm talking about the entire environment, not just specific apps or VSTs. But the menus and dialog boxes within VSTs and hosting apps have the same issue. To me, the system still has the feel of not having been developed for touch control, but rather having had touch control foisted upon it... and sometimes it works okay, and sometimes not so much.

Originally Posted By: Markay
And any examples of how iOS is superior to Windows 10 from a plug and play perspective?

Seriously?

Short version:

IOS: Plug in your MIDI keyboard. Launch app store. Type the name of the app you want (Korg iM1, Galileo organ, whatever). Click to buy/download. Click to launch. Start playing.

Win10: Plug in your MIDI keyboard. Launch web browser, search to locate, then download and install a VST host (Cantabile, whatever). Probably register/enter a serial number. Install, answering a whole bunch of configuration questions. (Probably locate, download, and install ASIO4ALL as well.) Then go back to the browser and locate and download a VST (say, VB3). You'll need to select 32 or 64 bit version. Open your downloads folder and unzip it. Probably move the file to another location (i.e. your plug-ins folder). Figure out how to load it into your host and route your MIDI into it and your audio out of it. Then figure out why it's not working. ;-)

(Honestly, I actually recently tried to load VB3 into Cantabile, and was not successful in getting sound out of it, or in getting the VB3 display itself to be much bigger than postage stamp size. But I didn't read the manual. But then, there's no need to read a manual for the IOS approach.)
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#2826801 - 01/09/17 05:10 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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Sounds like you are not bothered by the limitations and restrictions of IOS. If not, great. Go for it. Those of us that prefer to use a notebook, it is not because we are stupid. We just prefer a different environment. To each his own.
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#2826845 - 01/09/17 08:26 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
Sounds like you are not bothered by the limitations and restrictions of IOS. If not, great. Go for it. Those of us that prefer to use a notebook, it is not because we are stupid. We just prefer a different environment. To each his own.

Of course! And I never insulted anyone who uses a notebook, and am also perfectly aware of the numerous limitations of IOS. I was only responding to your comment, "other than cost I see no benefit of using an iPad over a notebook" - each environment has benefits. And when I pointed out iPad benefits, Markay asked for specific examples, so I provided them. But sure, to each his own!

Originally Posted By: RABid
I find it easier to sit a notebook on the right side of my JP80, Virus TI or any other keyboard with a knob-free flat area than to come up with a mount for the iPad. I could lay the iPad on the same spot but they are easier to slide around and I prefer to view an upright screen.

Coming up with a mount is not a difficult thing to do. Here's the one I use. It gives me the upright screen that you and I both prefer, and it fits on almost any keyboard, since it requires much less free panel space than a notebook (about 4" square). It can hold the iPad Mini, regular size, or jumbo pro, either horizontally or vertically as you prefer, height and tilt angle are easily adjustable.



Originally Posted By: RABid
Also, lack of touch on my MacBookPro does not really bother me. I find a mouse pointer to be more exact than the fat tip of my finger and a proper keyboard really speeds up searching for a sound.
Personally, if I were going to use a MacBook in a live gigging situation (which is something I still might do), I'd probably either mirror the screen to my iPad or use an IOS app like Set List Maker or iMidiPatchbay to send Program Change commands to the MacBook, rather than use a mouse and keyboard to navigate between sounds, which seems not so desirable to me mid-song. Here's a video showing one approach to a Mainstage screen that looks like it would be handy to operate by touch via remote iPad display...

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#2827029 - 01/10/17 04:16 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Markay Offline
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This thread evolved into a collection of the most bizarre comments on iOS v OSX v Windows v Hosts v legacy VST's I figured I might as well stoke the fire further.

Taking most of the points raised with being bothered to snip and quote.

Tablet Optimized GUI's.

I shudder every time this gets raised in my work place. It all comes down to throwing away 90% of the functionality of a fully featured web app or spreading the content of one screen over nine screens once 'optimized' for 10" or 5" touch device.

Consider a B3 emulation example, the draw bars on a B3 take up about 6" from left to right, a physical dimension that has worked well for the past 80 odd years. Put them on a 10" screen, which measures about 8" across and that's most of your screen real estate gone. Swipe right for rotary and percussion controls or shrink them to 20% of their original size?

There is also the vast difference between operating virtual drawbars with no tactile response and having to look at what your figures are touching. Not ideal for live gigging.

A real time example of the practicalities of a touch optimised interface is the piano keybed on a tablet. One octave, swipe left for the next higher, swipe right to go down an octave. Brings a new meaning to "hand independence".

Which leads into concept of swipe v qwerty keybed and mouse. The whole point of Host software is that you control everything from your controller. I don't touch the laptop except to turn it on and off. All the live control of a B3 VI including draw bars, rotary etc. is done from the physical controls, sliders, knobs and buttons on one or more controllers connected by USB to the laptop.

That includes patch and set list change, instant response, one button and I am there. This feature supported by all Hosts, I cannot think of any reason why touching a screen on tablet running a Set list app could in any way be "better".

A Host on a laptop means a really a simple setup. One power supply to the laptop which powers one or more controllers and the audio interface. Plug em in to their USB ports turn on and you are good to go. On a Mac it boots straight into MainStage in Perform mode. Much simpler than a tablet.

As for newby comments on Windows on tablets, well is anyone surprised a legacy app last updated when Win 7 was still fresh struggles with touch 6 years later?

I use a Windows tablet daily " in tablet mode" and find it to be snappy and functional. There isn't much in it between Android and iOS but if I had to pick only one it would be Win 10 - if only because I could run Cantabile and fully functional VI's on it.

Like all tablets it would be connectivity challenged which is just one big reason why I wouldn't replace a laptop with a tablet.

If going into settings to find out whether you are running a 32 or 64 bit OS or 2 minutes to do a one time install of an ASIO driver is too bigger slice out of your life then it is clearly not for you. Choosing an audio out is also going to take a minute or two, one time, on a Mac also, life gets complicated when you are presented with choices, like say buffer settings.

Which brings us to audio and midi latency which I know exists in OSX and Windows but seems magically never to get a mention when iOS music apps are discussed.
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#2827043 - 01/10/17 06:07 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
zukskywalker Offline
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Loc: Washington DC
I think that latency is not discussed much in iOS because right out of the box it's pretty good. Somewhat app dependent with minor buffer adjustments here and there but feel good, real good, straightaway.
No drivers, no asio4all, and everything pretty much talks to everything inside the box. With a decent controller(or set of controllers: read:Galileo) you're off to the races.
(IMHO)

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#2827084 - 01/10/17 08:17 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: zukskywalker]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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There are at least two completely different focus on using a computer (tablet or notebook) for music.
The person who wants to gig with a MIDI controller controlling various software primarily for potential better sound quality and variety is more likely to be satisfied with the notebook. Then comes the choice (usually) between Windows and Mac. I've used both - both work, but I will say that the Mac is less "fidgety."

My use tends mostly to be either auxiliary or "quickie." In auxiliary, I'm using one of the PC3s and want some added sounds. I leave a PC2 and PC3 at church, it is easy to add the iPad for some Module Hammond/Leslie, plug in a couple of connections, turn on, set Airplane Mode and no Screen Lock, open app - done.
More frequently, I'm doing something casual, and want to haul the absolute minimum gear. For that, the MIDI controller and iPad really works.

I still have two Windows based DAWs, they don't get used a whole lot, but they are paid for and will remain. My portable gear includes the Macbook Pro, Focusrite 18i8, and the iPads.

So - there are a variety of different needs, no reason to expect one method to be the best for everyone.
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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
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#2827088 - 01/10/17 08:29 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Sven Golly Offline
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I'll say this. If you're reaching for your mouse to change something on your laptop in the middle of a gig, you're doing it wrong. wink snax
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#2827100 - 01/10/17 09:15 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 9623
Originally Posted By: Markay
Tablet Optimized GUI's.

I shudder every time this gets raised in my work place. It all comes down to throwing away 90% of the functionality of a fully featured web app or spreading the content of one screen over nine screens once 'optimized' for 10" or 5" touch device.

You had suggested that Windows 10 and its VSTs are perfectly well touch optimized ("Could you provide a list of widely used VST's that are available on Windows that are not "touch optimised" in your experience. Big call given MS promote Windows 10 as touch optimised"), but now that I explained how they really aren't, you seem to be saying "well, touch orientation sucks anyway." Of course, that's a completely different argument, and more a matter of opinion than fact.

But if you want to go that way, what I like about touch orientation on live gigging is that if you want the ability to easily access the system during performance, touchscreen requires less space on your keyboard (about 4" square using the stand I showed, so I can easily fit it on almost any keyboard I want, unlike something with a screen, keyboard, and mouse), and you can operate the on-screen control more quickly by reaching toward the control and putting your fingertip right on it than you can by reaching for the mouse and then moving the mouse so that the pointer is over the control.

Of course that doesn't mean touch is the perfect interface for all items in all instances.

Originally Posted By: Markay
Consider a B3 emulation example, the draw bars on a B3 take up about 6" from left to right, a physical dimension that has worked well for the past 80 odd years. Put them on a 10" screen, which measures about 8" across and that's most of your screen real estate gone. Swipe right for rotary and percussion controls or shrink them to 20% of their original size?

There is also the vast difference between operating virtual drawbars with no tactile response and having to look at what your figures are touching. Not ideal for live gigging.

Obviously, real tactile controls are best. These controls, if you have them, will work equally well on a touchscreen or non-touchscreen based soft-organ. If you don't have hard controls, I'd still rather adjust a drawbar with a direct finger on a screen than with a mouse, though.

Also, even with physical controls, there are varying levels of functionality... i.e. things that specifically look like drawbars vs the use of multi-function control surface faders, how far apart they are spaced, whether you have a full 9 of them, the presence/location of all the ancillary controls like percussion and CV and whether you can tell how those controls are set by looking at them. So there are all kinds of solutions here, with different compromises. Touchscreens even offer their own advantage here, in that the visual of the drawbar settings and other controls can always match the sound. Many keyboards do not provide a visual representation of the current settings, so then maybe the combination of hard controls and a display is ideal.

Originally Posted By: Markay
A real time example of the practicalities of a touch optimised interface is the piano keybed on a tablet. One octave, swipe left for the next higher, swipe right to go down an octave. Brings a new meaning to "hand independence".

This is silly. One can think touchscreens are valuable without thinking that it's desirable to play a gig using on-screen keys rather than real keys. Though that said, if your keyboard failed, you could conceivably play *something* reasonable using onscreen keys, rather than packing up and going home! Not a reason I'd select a touchscreen device, though. ;-)

Originally Posted By: Markay
Which leads into concept of swipe v qwerty keybed and mouse. The whole point of Host software is that you control everything from your controller. I don't touch the laptop except to turn it on and off. All the live control of a B3 VI including draw bars, rotary etc. is done from the physical controls, sliders, knobs and buttons on one or more controllers connected by USB to the laptop.

That includes patch and set list change, instant response, one button and I am there.

"One button and I am there" only works if you have as many buttons as sounds you might need. For many people, that will not be the case.

Originally Posted By: Markay
one button and I am there. This feature supported by all Hosts, I cannot think of any reason why touching a screen on tablet running a Set list app could in any way be "better".

Here are reasons it can be better, if your patch selection mechanism is in the same device as your sounds:

It gives you complete keyboard/controller independence. You can plug in any keyboard and instantly access all your patches... so you can pick the keyboard you like the feel/size/weight/features/internal sounds of, with no thought needed as to how well it works to send patch changes to your host (many boards are bad at that), or having to re-program anything for a different board, or think about having to supplement the rig with some other patch-changing control surface which would then, itself, become something else you have to find a place for. Having patch selection in the host means you plug in and go, on any keyboard, at any time. Even if you buy a new keyboard, or you're sitting in on someone else's rig, or using an emergency replacement for a board that went down, or showing up to a gig and plugging into a provided backline that isn't what you expected, or feel like using some other keyboard you may have because of some other requirement of the gig or just a whim. No space? Show up with your keytar and put the host device on your amp. ;-)

It sounds like you have a very specific, personally optimized rig that works for you, great. i.e. "All the live control...is done from the physical controls, sliders, knobs and buttons on one or more controllers connected by USB to the laptop. That includes patch and set list change..." But this requires very specific controllers that meet your needs and took, I assume, a bunch of rig-specific setup. Now, how much work will be required if you want to run your sounds from some other keyboard (i.e. one of the numerous scenarios described in the previous paragraph)? What if the boards that have the action/size/weight you want don't have the control features you want? It's great that your rig is perfect for you, but putting patch selection into the device that has the sounds means you can use any keyboard you want, and can swap a board out with no additional programming.

Another reason touching a screen on a tablet for patch selection can be better is that all your patch select buttons are then labeled with their names. No need to memorize patch locations or refer to a cheat sheet. Unless maybe you have a Kronos, this is a benefit that doesn't exist in most non-tablet setups.

Now, you may not need any of these things, but I think it addresses "I cannot think of any reason why touching a screen on tablet running a Set list app could in any way be 'better'. " There are obviously scenarios where it can be, even if they don't apply to you.

Originally Posted By: Markay
As for newby comments on Windows on tablets, well is anyone surprised a legacy app last updated when Win 7 was still fresh struggles with touch 6 years later?

You asked for example of widely used VSTs that wasn't great with touch. VB3 qualifies. But as I said, I was talking about the whole environment, including Windows 10 and Cantabile themselves, which are not legacy apps. They are usable by touch, if your screen is big enough, but not designed to be optimally operated that way in all respects. IOS is, obviously, by design. I'm not saying that should be everyone's goal... as your own experience shows, not everyone cares about touch. But *if* you care about touch, clearly, IOS is completely optimized for it, the Win10 environment is not, I don't think this is reasonably disputable.

Originally Posted By: Markay
If going into settings to find out whether you are running a 32 or 64 bit OS or 2 minutes to do a one time install of an ASIO driver is too bigger slice out of your life then it is clearly not for you.

Again, you are shifting the conversation. You asked "Any examples of how iOS is superior to Windows 10 from a plug and play perspective?" I provided a description of some of the extra steps needed for Windows. I didn't say that all the extra steps are too complicated to do or aren't offset by other benefits. What I am saying is that they do make the system less plug and play. You have to spend some time assembling the bits and figuring out how to make them work. Again, I don't think this is reasonably disputable. Now, once you have the systems completely configured to do what you want, sure, there's no longer any real difference in how long it takes to get them up and running at a gig. But there's a lot more than a 2 minute difference in initial setup, to just get some basic sounds and functionality out of them, or to load a new plug-in/app into them.

Originally Posted By: Markay
Choosing an audio out is also going to take a minute or two, one time, on a Mac also

Mac vs Windows is a whole different conversation than iPad vs. laptop. iPad has certain (though different) advantages over both Mac and Win laptops, just as each of those laptop systems have certain (but different) advantages over iPads (and over each other). Overall, I guess I'd say IOS is easier than Mac, which is easier than Windows; Windows has more total functionality than Mac, which has more total functionality than IOS.

Originally Posted By: Markay
Which brings us to audio and midi latency which I know exists in OSX and Windows but seems magically never to get a mention when iOS music apps are discussed.

I've seen it mentioned plenty. Often as a reason people don't use iOS. ;-) I think the difference is, you can't do much about it. An app will typically have a setting, and either it works well enough for you on your device or it doesn't, and you use it or don't use it accordingly. So iOS latency doesn't lead to any of the "tweaking" conversations that you see when talking about laptops. Basically, on an iPad, you need to put it in airplane mode, and watch how many apps you're running at the same time, and that's pretty much all you can do, other than buy a more powerful iPad. So there's not much to discuss, compared to evaluating different interfaces, installing more RAM or a faster drive, or making other software changes to a Windows system.
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#2827277 - 01/11/17 03:18 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

But if you want to go that way, what I like about touch orientation on live gigging is that if you want the ability to easily access the system during performance, touchscreen requires less space on your keyboard (about 4" square using the stand I showed, so I can easily fit it on almost any keyboard I want, unlike something with a screen, keyboard, and mouse), and you can operate the on-screen control more quickly by reaching toward the control and putting your fingertip right on it than you can by reaching for the mouse and then moving the mouse so that the pointer is over the control.

Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
I'll say this. If you're reaching for your mouse to change something on your laptop in the middle of a gig, you're doing it wrong. wink snax
facepalm
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#2827295 - 01/11/17 05:31 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

But if you want to go that way, what I like about touch orientation on live gigging is that if you want the ability to easily access the system during performance, touchscreen requires less space on your keyboard (about 4" square using the stand I showed, so I can easily fit it on almost any keyboard I want, unlike something with a screen, keyboard, and mouse), and you can operate the on-screen control more quickly by reaching toward the control and putting your fingertip right on it than you can by reaching for the mouse and then moving the mouse so that the pointer is over the control.

Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
I'll say this. If you're reaching for your mouse to change something on your laptop in the middle of a gig, you're doing it wrong. wink snax
facepalm


Yup, we actually all agree that mousing live is a pretty bad idea! But that leads me back to, well, the rest of what I said in that long post. If you're not going to mouse (or computer-keyboard), and you don't want a touchscreen for patch selection, you end up with additional limitations in you choice of controller(s) (and no easy way to plug-and-go on any other controller on the fly) OR you'll want to employ some other external patch-changing device, which won't have dynamically labeled buttons and will often be more difficult to ergonomically place than a tablet would be. I'm sure there are various approaches that work for people, but touchscreen for patch selection solves a bunch of problems in a lot of situations.
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#2827309 - 01/11/17 07:02 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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This is getting as bad as the Mac vs. PC and Nord vs. Korg arguments.

"My way is the only way and if you are doing something different then you are silly, stupid and wrong."

The thread is titled "Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you?" The question mark at the end lead me to believe that you want to hear why people are not attracted to using iPad on stage. Maybe the title should have been "Tell me why you like using the iPad on stage." Then people might be more likely to tell you what you want to hear.

I do understand the attraction. Hell, in the early 80's I was using a mini Casio 2 octave keyboard on stage. We played a lot of music by The Cars and it worked very well in that vein. The other keyboardist in the area had an Oberheim sitting on top of a CP-70. Now, I have the big setup in the form of a MacBook Pro. There is no reason for me to go back to playing the little Casio (iPad).

And by the way, studies have shown that a touchscreen is not more efficient than a mouse. A well placed mouse gives you a shorter reach, smaller movements, and more exact point and click. It really becomes evident when you try to mimic the abilities of the scroll wheel or right click when using only a touch screen. The main purpose of a tablet is to be easy to carry, and thus, no attachments such as a mouse to deal with. Convenience of portability. I would not carrying the iPad around on stage so I don't need to make sacrifices like small screen, no mouse and limited interface options. I'll choose the device with easy file management and flexible audio processing.

But like someone said, once you have your program loaded and set list pulled up, your master keyboard should be able to trigger program changes without reaching for the mouse or touchscreen.

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#2827318 - 01/11/17 07:55 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
This is getting as bad as the Mac vs. PC and Nord vs. Korg arguments.

"My way is the only way and if you are doing something different then you are silly, stupid and wrong."

I've never taken that approach, but without going quite that far...

Originally Posted By: RABid
a touchscreen is not more efficient than a mouse. A well placed mouse gives you a shorter reach, smaller movements, and more exact point and click.

For most functions, on a desktop, I'd agree. Perched on top of a keyboard in the middle of the performance, to select a patch or adjust a virtual control, I don't think that holds.

Originally Posted By: RABid
But like someone said, once you have your program loaded and set list pulled up, your master keyboard should be able to trigger program changes without reaching for the mouse or touchscreen.

Yes...

...IF you are willing to limit your selection of master keyboards to ones that are well suited to that function. Which rules out a lot of boards you might otherwise find desirable for other reasons (size, travel weight, action, built-in sounds, the economics of already owning it, whatever). People often have a hard enough time settling on master keyboards that do close to everything they want, and you're adding one more requirement.

...and IF you are willing to tie your use of your computer sounds to that particular master keyboard. Which, as I said, interferes with numerous other scenarios (i.e. sitting in on someone else's rig, using an emergency replacement for a board that goes down, connecting to any board that might be supplied in a backline, wanting to use some other board you may have because of some other advantage like a space constraint, whatever). Plus buying a new keyboard means programming it to do the same patch selection as your old one (or programming your laptop to remap to the patch selection of the new one), vs. just being able to plug it in and instantly operate the same as before.

And using your master keyboard for patch select generally costs you the functionality of patch selection buttons that are automatically/dynamically named with what they do. (Unless, say, your master keyboard is a Kronos.)

So there are certain trade-offs in doing patch selection only from your master keyboard. These restrictions may be fine for many people, but that doesn't mean one should expect them to be fine for everyone. Personally, if I were touchscreen averse, I'd at least be inclined to off-load patch selection to some other device that would still be independent of the keyboard controller. Maybe the Genovation box that comes up now and then.

Relying on your master keyboard for your computer patch selection really only works if you can really find an ideal (for you) controller with good patch selection functionality, AND you are willing to gig only with that controller, in all foreseeable (and perhaps unforeseeable) circumstances. That may well be true for many people, but not for everyone.



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#2827333 - 01/11/17 08:56 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
funkcity Offline
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Great info here!
I will check this all out at NAMM next week.
Are there any more iPad synth apps to debut at NAMM??

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#2827344 - 01/11/17 09:59 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Actually, using Mainstage in a "touch free" environment isn't as limiting, controller wise, as it may seem.

I use Mainstage primarily for fly-in gigs we do now.

Granted My Mainstage was setup using my PX5S and Arturia Keylab.

However, the way I mapped my controls, makes it usable with 99% of keyboards on the market and stocked by backline companies.

It just takes some time, and careful setup.

All I fly with is my Macbook, interface, and a couple pedals.

The few organ patches I use where I want to change drawbar settings mid song have the setting pre-mapped to the mod wheel.
I map Leslie fast/slow to the lowest key on the 88 controller.
Patch change can be done via the foot switch.

I get to the gig, fire up the two boards provided by backline, connect USB, fire up Mainstage, and away I go.

For more intensive local gigs, I can use my Arturia Keylab with its 9 sliders and bazillion knobs. Even then, for my specific gig, all possible 50 songs we might play, are very carefully set up in MS to work with pretty much any controller.

Once set up, I NEVER touch the Macbook.

Here's what the performance screen looks like. Minimalist, yet behind the scenes, is all the routing that make it universally adaptable to about any board that can be used as a controller.




As far as the iPad, I use mine once in a while, via the Alesis ioDock.

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#2827352 - 01/11/17 10:30 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

Yes...

...IF you are willing to limit your selection of master keyboards to ones that are well suited to that function. Which rules out a lot of boards you might otherwise find desirable for other reasons (size, travel weight, action, built-in sounds, the economics of already owning it, whatever). People often have a hard enough time settling on master keyboards that do close to everything they want, and you're adding one more requirement.

......


Gosh. All I can think is we must have two very different ideas of a desirable stage setup. Any old big four (Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Kurzwell) workstation/ROMpler makes a great master controller. For years I used Rolands and Korgs to control racks of synths. Splits, layers, patch changes, all come up with a single press of a button. Now, Mainstage lets you do pretty much the same thing with any keyboard that will connect to the computer. It's not that hard to set up. I cannot imagine not putting out the effort to set it up.
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#2827353 - 01/11/17 10:31 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: EscapeRocks]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Patch change can be done via the foot switch.

And there you go... for patch selection to be independent of requiring that you also have a particular master keyboard, you need some other device. Sometimes a foot switch can do the trick. Though if you have tons of patches, and you need to be able to recall them very quickly, it may not be the best way to go. Plus an iPad-based touchscreen patch selector is a whole lot easier to fly in with than, say, a Behringer FCB1010, or even many tabletop control surfaces (which also may be hard to place, depending on what backline keyboard you're playing). If you have no more than 16 patches, a Korg nanoPAD2 might do the trick pretty easily, in a compact and cheap box. (I'm assuming that there would be a way to use its pads as Mainstage patch change buttons.) Or a NanoKontrol gives you a bunch of buttons and sliders, which is something I might want to use for reasons that have nothing to do with patch changes, but could be useful for that, too. But if you have lot of patches you need to select from (esp. more than 16), the touchscreen with its labeled buttons seems like an obvious easy, compact solution, that I see no reason to jump through hoops to avoid, especially if you already own the iPad!
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#2827361 - 01/11/17 11:19 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
Gosh. All I can think is we must have two very different ideas of a desirable stage setup. Any old big four (Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Kurzwell) workstation/ROMpler makes a great master controller.

But not everyone wants to travel with a workstation-style board. Especially when they probably don't need its other workstation functionality, and especially when you consider those boards are often heavier than many others, pricier than many others, or may not have your favorite actions, and when you're likely going to be getting most of your sounds out of Mainstage or whatever anyway. Why force someone to buy such a board, just to avoid selecting patches from a screen?

Here are some boards that people often like to gig with that would be awkward (if not impossible) to use for Mainstage patch selection, or could only be used to recall a very small number of such patches, or would require scrolling through long lists:

...virtually any slab-style weighted action 88 or similar compact piano (Yamaha P-anything, Casio PX-anything except 5S and 3, Kawai ES-100, Korg SV-1, Roland RD64 and assorted lower end FP models, assorted Numa models, etc.)

...virtually any non-Hammond clonewheel (Nord Electro series, Roland VR-09, Numa organs, don't know about Mojo...?)

Lots of people have rigs made of those or similar boards! So let's say you want a two-tier, compact, lightweight system, with actions you like, and some ergonomic organ controls, and you intend to get the rest of what you need out of Mainstage. If it weren't for Mainstage, you could pick one from each of the two groups I listed. (Well, the SV1 is kinda heavy, but still a popular choice.) But you need to call up Mainstage patches. If you don't want to operate the computer itself, or a touchscreen, you're going to need to add some other patch selection device, or choose different keyboards, right?

Sure, you could replace the slab with an 88-workstation, but it will be bigger and heavier, just to get its patch select buttons; and the lower cost, lighter weight workstations often have actions that are not as good as some of those 88s. Or you could replace the clonewheel with some other board that has that functionality with more MIDI functionality... a Kronos, a Nord Stage 2 (not the best for patch selection, itself), a Kurzweil... not that these aren't great boards, but again, you're likely to pay more, carry a heavier board, plus lose drawbars that really look and feel like drawbars. There are always compromises to be had, but why force yourself into more of them by insisting that you only select boards that can easily send Program Changes to your laptop, when you can easily skin that cat another way? I mean, if the Kronos is what you want anyway, great, go for it! But if the Numa Organ is what you prefer for your top board (and it's cheaper and lighter), there's no need to rule it out just because it doesn't send Program Changes. (Okay, you could go for an XK1C if you want a nice basic clone that can send Program Changes... though even it is somewhat limited in its ease of accessing many program changes, plus it can leave you with no board that includes pitch or mod wheels.) The point is, there are many desirable gigging boards that are poor Mainstage program selectors. Plus, ideally when going to Mainstage, you don't want to have to buy new keyboards at all, you want to use boards you already own, and again, many people already own boards that are poor for Mainstage selection.

Though again, even if you use a board that has all that program change functionality in it, sure, you can program those Mainstage changes into your workstation/rompler... but you're still vulnerable to all the other variables that can make that solution problematic (needing to swap out to a different keyboard controller at the last minute due to equipment failure, sitting in on someone else's rig, playing on any supplied backline, etc.), so even that is not always ideal, even if that's the kind of board you're using. But there are ergonomic advantages to that, too. So again, it's a matter of weighing trade-offs, and looking at the particular scenarios you think you're reasonably likely to encounter, and if you have workarounds you can use if need be.


Edited by AnotherScott (01/11/17 11:51 AM)
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#2827380 - 01/11/17 12:33 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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I didn't realize that there were so many good boards that work with iPad that do not work with a notebook. I guess you are correct. iPad is the way to go. That 4 lb. MacBookPro is WAY too heavy to lug around.
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#2827386 - 01/11/17 12:58 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
I didn't realize that there were so many good boards that work with iPad that do not work with a notebook. I guess you are correct. iPad is the way to go. That 4 lb. MacBookPro is WAY too heavy to lug around.

I think you missed the point. What I was talking about here has nothing to do with iPad vs MBP. It has to do with the usefulness of touchscreen patch selection. You can get touchscreen patch selection on an iPad of course. If you want to use the MBP, you can get it by using an iPad in conjunction with your Mac using a screen mirroring/extension app (or as pointed out below, the Logic Remote app, if you're using Mainstage). If you want to use Windows, you can get it with a Surface Pro or whatever. Touch works better (or more completely) in some environments than others, but there's always a way to get it, so that you don't need to rely on keyboard/mouse OR only being able to use your rig with your one configured controller. (Or, as I said, in some cases, a footswitch or control surface may do the trick as well.) Maybe despite all the verbiage, I'm not communicating well, because I have a hard time seeing why there is so much resistance to the idea that there may actually be benefits to touch patch selection.


Edited by AnotherScott (01/12/17 05:39 AM)
Edit Reason: logic remote app
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#2827387 - 01/11/17 01:00 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
I didn't realize that there were so many good boards that work with iPad that do not work with a notebook. I guess you are correct. iPad is the way to go. That 4 lb. MacBookPro is WAY too heavy to lug around.


wink
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#2827390 - 01/11/17 01:20 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Patch change can be done via the foot switch.

And there you go... for patch selection to be independent of requiring that you also have a particular master keyboard, you need some other device.


Actually no. I just prefer the footdwitch as an alternative if a provided board isn't adaptive.

HOWEVER regarding this.

Every function that I want out of Mainstage can be programmed to ANY controller that Mainstage recognizes.

For example how on certain patches I have my Leslie speed mapped to the lowest key on my 88 note controller.

You can do the same with patch change. I've done this, and it doesn't limit my playing. Lowest key is previous patch, next white key is next patch.

Also, with Mainstage, I can reorder the set list instantly by reordering the Patch list before the show.

I have no issue if people want a touch interface like an iPad to accomplish these things. I used to use my iPad for this with both Setlist Maker and Yamaha's app.

I am simply trying to point out that Mainstage is very robust and lets you do all these things mentioned with no extra gear.
I could fly with just my MBP, and my interface.

The way I made my MS practically universal is by using the multi-assignment capability of buttons in mainstage. Most of the buttons I used can be activated 2 to 4 ways, depending on the button's desired function. For example patch change:

  • dedicated button on controller
  • keys on controller
  • footswitch
  • actual bank/program change numbers


Same with the draw bars, either the mod wheel or dedicated sliders.


Once I discovered the joy of setting up Mainstage and its ability to be controlled pretty much any way you desire, I went with that.

As Rabid said, it takes some work on the front end, but once it's all programmed, life is easy. I treat my Mainstage as simply another sound module.

_________________________
David
Gig Rig: Roland FA-08 | Yamaha MOXF6 | Alesis Vortex |


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#2827392 - 01/11/17 01:29 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: EscapeRocks]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
For example how on certain patches I have my Leslie speed mapped to the lowest key on my 88 note controller.

You can do the same with patch change. I've done this, and it doesn't limit my playing. Lowest key is previous patch, next white key is next patch.

That's a clever solution, and of course works great for controller independence since those keys send out the exact same MIDI event no matter what keyboard you attach to. Obviously, there are still some limitations. Like, if you have 50 patches assigned to the 50 lowest white keys, you'll end up with a 3-key playable piano. ;-) Still, if you only need to access a handful of patches and have the keys to spare, that's a pretty cool idea.
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#2827398 - 01/11/17 01:57 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Sven Golly Offline
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Firstly, because Markay seemed to have an issue with my post in this thread, let me restate; this is not directed at any specific person or post in this thread, but if you are running a laptop-based rig, and need to use a mouse to make program changes or any other adjustments during the gig (ie. between songs, or even worse during songs), then you are doing it wrong.

(Note: if you choose to interpret that statement as me saying you're silly or stupid, that's your prerogative, but I never said that. For the record. I'm judging the action, not the person. wink )

As David (EscapeRocks) has stated, all patch/controller changes should be mapped to an existing hardware control.

Hope that clears that up. wink


Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
That's a clever solution, and of course works great for controller independence since those keys send out the exact same MIDI event no matter what keyboard you attach to. Obviously, there are still some limitations. Like, if you have 50 patches assigned to the 50 lowest white keys, you'll end up with a 3-key playable piano. ;-) Still, if you only need to access a handful of patches and have the keys to spare, that's a pretty cool idea.


You misunderstood David's post, probably in the heat of battle. His example was using only two keys to do patch increment/decrement. A great solution, and incredibly easily done in Mainstage and other such platforms, if you don't have a dedicated pad controller or other such mechanism to accomplish this task.
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#2827399 - 01/11/17 02:12 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Sven Golly]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 9623
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
That's a clever solution, and of course works great for controller independence since those keys send out the exact same MIDI event no matter what keyboard you attach to. Obviously, there are still some limitations. Like, if you have 50 patches assigned to the 50 lowest white keys, you'll end up with a 3-key playable piano. ;-) Still, if you only need to access a handful of patches and have the keys to spare, that's a pretty cool idea.


You misunderstood David's post, probably in the heat of battle. His example was using only two keys to do patch increment/decrement. A great solution, and incredibly easily done in Mainstage and other such platforms, if you don't have a dedicated pad controller or other such mechanism to accomplish this task.

Ah. I'm sure that works for some people too. Personally, I'm used to "random access" -- I don't always access patches in the same order, or even necessarily know what patch I'm going to need two songs from now. If you're in a touring show that does the same song sequence night after night, increment makes a lot of sense. My own approach is try to to be able to typically call up any of my most common sounds in an instant, and never be more than a few finger-presses away from any other sound I may need.
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#2827400 - 01/11/17 02:16 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Bobadohshe Offline
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Registered: 12/25/06
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Like, if you have 50 patches assigned to the 50 lowest white keys, you'll end up with a 3-key playable piano. ;-)


That isn't what he means. 2 keys to scroll through patches incrementally. Pretty slick!
_________________________
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#2827406 - 01/11/17 02:34 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Bobadohshe]
roygbiv Offline
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Registered: 05/04/15
Posts: 268
Loc: Pacific NW
A few quick comments and a question:

COMMENT 1 - I think both sides of this argument make sense, laptops can totally be used as hands-free sound modules.

COMMENT 2 - however, I agree with Scott that the ability to quickly and directly change stuff on the screen of the iPad makes it great for live use (sound effects, patch changes, etc). For this reason, I have been using my ipad velcroed to my keyboard, makes for a great, quick sound module running Korg Module (also Beatmaker 2 for quick sound effects/samples), and ForScore for chord charts in case I do too much "prepping" before the show in my Reggae band and forget stuff smirk

COMMENT 3 - the Korg Nanocontrol is a great way to map things to the Korg Module app - HOWEVER, the Nanocontrol does NOT do Program Change (apparently, the new Nanocontrol Studio also does not, but the keyboard thingy does). 2nd However, the Arturia Arturia product line does allow sending Program Change messages via the built in pads (1st gen Beatstep or miniLab).

Question: Other than given direct patch-change information as a Program Change #, is there a way in MIDI to do the patch increment up/down you guys mention? Is that a Program Change # in MIDI?

Thanks,

roy

-

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#2827412 - 01/11/17 02:48 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: roygbiv]
hardware Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 03/04/14
Posts: 834
Loc: Nashville, TN.
I think AppŁ€ & M$ synths are amazing.
I like the buzz of my iPad speakers so I use 2 x spare KSM8s instead of running direct out to hardware Tube saturation.
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#2827413 - 01/11/17 03:03 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
That's a clever solution, and of course works great for controller independence since those keys send out the exact same MIDI event no matter what keyboard you attach to. Obviously, there are still some limitations. Like, if you have 50 patches assigned to the 50 lowest white keys, you'll end up with a 3-key playable piano. ;-) Still, if you only need to access a handful of patches and have the keys to spare, that's a pretty cool idea.


You misunderstood David's post, probably in the heat of battle. His example was using only two keys to do patch increment/decrement. A great solution, and incredibly easily done in Mainstage and other such platforms, if you don't have a dedicated pad controller or other such mechanism to accomplish this task.

Ah. I'm sure that works for some people too. Personally, I'm used to "random access" -- I don't always access patches in the same order, or even necessarily know what patch I'm going to need two songs from now. If you're in a touring show that does the same song sequence night after night, increment makes a lot of sense. My own approach is try to to be able to typically call up any of my most common sounds in an instant, and never be more than a few finger-presses away from any other sound I may need.


If you used Logic Remote on your iPad to control Mainstage 3, you'd only be one finger-press from any sound you needed.

(you may be doing this already, I haven't read the entirety of this horse-beating thread... wink )
_________________________
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#2827419 - 01/11/17 03:44 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Sven Golly]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2139
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
Firstly, because Markay seemed to have an issue with my post in this thread, let me restate; this is not directed at any specific person or post in this thread, but if you are running a laptop-based rig, and need to use a mouse to make program changes or any other adjustments during the gig (ie. between songs, or even worse during songs), then you are doing it wrong.


No issue at all Sven. wave

I am in complete agreement with your post. I quoted it as it had been made earlier in the thread and ignored in AS's subsequent posts.

The nonsensical twist this thread has taken by adoption of the position "lets pretend that you are in a land where controller's have no encoders" is pointless.

Makes as much sense as a hypothetical discussion of "what if you left your iPad at home?".

There are a few posts here from folk who successfully gig with Laptop's, and a few from those use an iPad to supplement their hardware sounds. All the rest is fantasy.
_________________________
MainStage | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P
"He helped me onto the bottom rung as a musician, from which, I might add, I never ascended" Glyn Johns - Sound Man

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#2827420 - 01/11/17 03:52 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
analogman1 Offline
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Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 711
Loc: UNITED STATES
Don't forget, you can change patches easily, in Mainstage, by using the number keys on the computer.
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#2827425 - 01/11/17 04:26 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay
No issue at all Sven. wave

I am in complete agreement with your post. I quoted it as it had been made earlier in the thread and ignored in AS's subsequent posts.


Ahhhh, sorry, misinterpreted the facepalm. wink All good now! twothumbs

Quote:
There are a few posts here from folk who successfully gig with Laptop's, and a few from those use an iPad to supplement their hardware sounds.


I've successfully played in both of those fields, although the latter only minimally; I'm working on a simple iPad-only rig that would act as my second tier sound above my Kurzweil PC3 (effectively replacing my heavier-than-hell, and way too big for these gigs Yamaha Motif ES7). So far I'm not 100% satisfied with it for "prime time" gigs, but it's getting pretty damned close, working with MIDIflow and a few key virtual instruments...
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#2827427 - 01/11/17 05:02 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 9623
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
If you used Logic Remote on your iPad to control Mainstage 3, you'd only be one finger-press from any sound you needed.

Whether through Logic Remote or not, yup, that's what I'm suggesting is a good idea, using the iPad for touchscreen patch selection of Mainstage sounds. The "other position" being expressed in the thread is that using an iPad to add touch screen patch selection to Mainstage is not desirable.

Originally Posted By: Markay
The nonsensical twist this thread has taken by adoption of the position "lets pretend that you are in a land where controller's have no encoders" is pointless.

Lots of people have rigs that have no good way to send program changes, or may prefer using some of those keyboards (I listed a whole bunch of them a few posts up). If you want to add Mainstage to a rig of say, a Nord Electro or Numa Organ stacked on an RD64 or lightweight Yamaha/Casio/Kawai 88 slab, where are your patch change buttons? This isn't pretend, these are common boards. Or do you think that people should buy new controllers if they want to use Mainstage, despite additional expense and loss of some combination of other attributes someone may like about these boards (light weight, small size, some of their own sounds/ergonomics, key feel, that they're paid for...)? And again, this even assumes you have no interest in the other things I mentioned (being able to automatically see patch names for your "buttons", being able to instantly swap in another keyboard controller in case of failure, sitting in on someone else's rig, using provided backline, etc.), which is fair enough, but are things that also may reasonably be of concern to some people.

Again, all of this is just to answer your assertion...
Quote:
The whole point of Host software is that you control everything from your controller. ... I cannot think of any reason why touching a screen on tablet running a Set list app could in any way be "better".
I'm merely demonstrating scenarios--maybe not for you, but realistic scenarios--where operating the host from a tablet touchscreen can be a better way to go. I honestly didn't expect this to be a controversial position!



Edited by AnotherScott (01/12/17 05:44 AM)
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#2827471 - 01/11/17 09:19 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Sven Golly]
EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sven Golly

If you used Logic Remote on your iPad to control Mainstage 3, you'd only be one finger-press from any sound you needed.


yes smile

Screen shots of iPad.

This is one of a few screen views. This is where you can instantly do one-touch patch change


Screen where you can create and assign all manner of buttons to control things. There are 24 positions per page and many,many pages. The bottom row of 6 always stays visible, so your most used buttons would go there.


Not shown are a couple more screens... one I really like is the edit screen with all the channel strip sliders per patch.

I use it a lot when setting up patches.

You can also bring up a keyboard to test patch sounds

My iPad and a stylus lets me setup the different channel strips easily from my pad while my Macbook is ...over there smile
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Gig Rig: Roland FA-08 | Yamaha MOXF6 | Alesis Vortex |


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#2827515 - 01/12/17 06:40 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Sven Golly]
RABid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
...(Note: if you choose to interpret that statement as me saying you're silly or stupid, that's your prerogative, but I never said that. For the record. I'm judging the action, not the person. wink )

...


No Sven, you were not the one that called me silly. For the most part I actually agree with your statement. But, I do use the mouse when setting up my performances and set lists. And when programming patches I find it much easier to be exact when using a mouse instead of my big fat fingertip.
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#2827517 - 01/12/17 06:43 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
Sven Golly Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
...(Note: if you choose to interpret that statement as me saying you're silly or stupid, that's your prerogative, but I never said that. For the record. I'm judging the action, not the person. wink )

...


No Sven, you were not the one that called me silly. For the most part I actually agree with your statement. But, I do use the mouse when setting up my performances and set lists. And when programming patches I find it much easier to be exact when using a mouse instead of my big fat fingertip.


twothumbs

For the record, I'm not advocating programming your rig --- at home, before the gig --- without a mouse. That would be silly... wink

For tablet users, a stylus works beautifully instead of ... girthy digits. smile
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#2827878 - 01/13/17 09:03 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
No Sven, you were not the one that called me silly. For the most part I actually agree with your statement. But, I do use the mouse when setting up my performances and set lists. And when programming patches I find it much easier to be exact when using a mouse instead of my big fat fingertip.


I don't think anyone called you silly. And I mostly agree with what you're saying as well. I was primarily talking about the virtue of touchscreen for live performance, not for pre-gig configuration. One exception is if you find the iPad to be a suitable sound device for your purposes. There is no mouse, but the environment is specifically designed for touch, so you typically don't miss it. (Of course, if the iPad is sufficient for your purposes, there's a good chance you're not attempting to do some of the more complicated stuff that requires a lot of intricate pre-configuration in the first place.)
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