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#2825887 - 01/04/17 06:49 PM Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you?
Ensenada Guide Offline
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Registered: 01/20/16
Posts: 202
Loc: Baja Mexico Ensenada
example like sample tank 2 now can do splits and layers
and and now in app purchase sounds sound better than before
also korg with is i wavestation etc . still NOt a Pro sound
for most of you?

I would buy them if i could just find my ipad
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KC Island
#2825892 - 01/04/17 07:01 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Ensenada Guide]
t9cstudio Offline
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Loc: TX
If you have access to Amazon, you can get refurbished 128g iPads for far less than new, then you can become a true iPad musico.
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#2825895 - 01/04/17 07:30 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: t9cstudio]
Ensenada Guide Offline
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Loc: Baja Mexico Ensenada
I have one i just cant find it, looks sound still not interesting for you pro guys smile
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#2825939 - 01/05/17 03:21 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Ensenada Guide]
TomKittel Offline
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Registered: 07/09/13
Posts: 334
No pro guy here. But I am using my iPad a lot with Korg PlugKey interface. This cool little tool converts the iPad to a real synth expander.

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#2825948 - 01/05/17 04:50 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: TomKittel]
Stokely Offline
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Posts: 1141
Loc: Florida
I'm very interested in the idea for sure. I use laptops at home for music but have resisted the idea of computers or ipads for live use, just a "trust" thing that everything is going to work right every time. Especially for those gigs that you are in a big hurry. The ipad would be easier than a computer since you could velcro it any number of places and take it with you offstage more easily (I'd worry about theft with a laptop).

All that said, I recently had a hardware synth die on me during a gig, so hardware is no guarantee for everything working. If I can find: 1. good-enough software with all the sounds I need and 2. hardware that both charges and provides pro audio outputs, then it's something I would consider. We already have an ipad, and like you we have misplaced another one......:P

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#2825955 - 01/05/17 05:07 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Stokely]
TomKittel Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stokely


If I can find: 1. good-enough software with all the sounds I need and

Plenty of good enough software available from Korg, Arturia and many many other vendors
Originally Posted By: Stokely

2. hardware that both charges and provides pro audio outputs, then it's something I would consider.

Korg PlugKey provides exactly that plus regular Midi Input

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#2825957 - 01/05/17 05:14 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: TomKittel]
RABid Offline
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Other than cost I see no benefit of using an iPad over a notebook. I do see many advantages of using a notebook over an iPad.
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#2826030 - 01/05/17 09:19 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
Ensenada Guide Offline
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Registered: 01/20/16
Posts: 202
Loc: Baja Mexico Ensenada
what i like about it is the latency. and almost crash free performance?
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#2826054 - 01/05/17 10:09 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
Other than cost I see no benefit of using an iPad over a notebook. I do see many advantages of using a notebook over an iPad.

A tablet is ergonomically better than a Mac laptop in a live rig... you can much more easily place it conveniently, and operate it by touch. It's a tougher call against a Windows tablet which shares those iPad attributes, but the iPad still has advantages in the fact that all its apps are touch-optimized, and that initial configuration (albeit within the greater limits of what it can do) is much more plug-and-play.

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#2826190 - 01/05/17 11:42 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
midinut Offline
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If Apple would port Mainstage over to iOS, they would clean up, especially if it included all the Logic instruments. I'd even pay bigger bucks for that app. I'm trying to integrate my MBP into my live rig as is. I may look closer at that PlugKey to create a secondary rig. Maybe for rehearsals?

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#2826195 - 01/06/17 03:25 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Markay Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

A tablet is ergonomically better than a Mac laptop in a live rig... you can much more easily place it conveniently, and operate it by touch. It's a tougher call against a Windows tablet which shares those iPad attributes, but the iPad still has advantages in the fact that all its apps are touch-optimized, and that initial configuration (albeit within the greater limits of what it can do) is much more plug-and-play.


Could you provide a list of widely used VST's that are available on Windows that are not "touch optimised" in your experience. Big call given MS promote Windows 10 as touch optimised on desktop, laptop, tablet and phone, or maybe not, compared to iOS, once you provide some examples.

And any examples of how iOS is superior to Windows 10 from a plug and play perspective?
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#2826203 - 01/06/17 05:13 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: TomKittel]
Stokely Offline
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Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: TomKittel
Originally Posted By: Stokely


If I can find: 1. good-enough software with all the sounds I need and

Plenty of good enough software available from Korg, Arturia and many many other vendors
Originally Posted By: Stokely

2. hardware that both charges and provides pro audio outputs, then it's something I would consider.

Korg PlugKey provides exactly that plus regular Midi Input



Excellent info, thanks for that-- I haven't kept up with ipad hardware, I'll be checking out the plugkey.

The problem with sounds has been getting "bread and butter" sounds. Synths seem easy to come by, but I don't really use synth much in my current band. Then again--I'd likely be pairing the ipad/controller with a second hardware board, and I could make sure that board could cover most sounds in a pinch. I could see a pretty nice rig with a Nord electro plus the ipad...The electro's weakness would be the ipad's strength (synth). Get a light controller and that would be one easy rig to transport. Since my pc3 had an "episode" I've been taking our singer's Juno D to gigs just in case...that thing is feather light and could be used as the controller.

The logistics thing brought up by AnotherScott is pretty huge to me. It would be somewhat of a pain to try to get my macbook on stage, while the ipad could probably just be velcroed to something. I have the full-size ipad though, for this use it would be nice to have the smaller one.

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#2826223 - 01/06/17 05:55 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: RABid
Other than cost I see no benefit of using an iPad over a notebook. I do see many advantages of using a notebook over an iPad.

A tablet is ergonomically better than a Mac laptop in a live rig... you can much more easily place it conveniently, and operate it by touch. It's a tougher call against a Windows tablet which shares those iPad attributes, but the iPad still has advantages in the fact that all its apps are touch-optimized, and that initial configuration (albeit within the greater limits of what it can do) is much more plug-and-play.


I find it easier to sit a notebook on the right side of my JP80, Virus TI or any other keyboard with a knob-free flat area than to come up with a mount for the iPad. I could lay the iPad on the same spot but they are easier to slide around and I prefer to view an upright screen. Also, lack of touch on my MacBookPro does not really bother me. I find a mouse pointer to be more exact than the fat tip of my finger and a proper keyboard really speeds up searching for a sound. Most of all, the ability to use a proper sound card and Mainstage puts a notebook on a different level than a iPad. For me, an iPad is like having a single rack mount ROMpler attached to the keyboard. A notebook with Mainstage is like having a rack full of ROMplers, samplers and synths managed with a custom interface.

I'm not saying that an iPad is not usable. I am saying that after using a proper notebook, using an iPad seems very restrictive.
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#2826284 - 01/06/17 11:00 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Stokely]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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Actually, I have both a standard size and mini iPad. The mini does have Lightning connector and is easier to carry around, but the larger screen on the full size one is an advantage for touch control with some apps.
I have a very good selection of most any sound I need. Primary sound source is Korg Module, and I purchased all of the in-app expansions that are available.
Ivory - the Steinway D grand is not quite up to the full size Ivory, but it works very well. The base pianos are also good.

Wurley - adds some very useful Wurly patches.

Vintage Organ - adds additional Hammond/Leslie patches. Only thing missing is full control of drawbars (I have Galileo and use that if I need, but the Leslie sim is better in Module).

Triton - 100 patches culled from the Korg Triton - lots of variety in this add-in.

80's Electric Piano - many patches from Rhodes (there are some in the base package), early Yamaha (some may like, others may not), FM piano.

Mellow Tape - get 'yer Mellotron fixes right here.

All of the above in a single app - several hundred possible patches. I find that I use Module alone about 90% of the time.

Other apps that I find useful: Animoog synth, Autoharp (play it right from the screen), Cleartune (a tuner app), Galileo Organ (as mentioned above), iCathedral Organ (pipe organs), iFretless Bass (use the screen like a fretboard to play or can MIDI control), iFretless Brass, iFretless Sax( There is also a Guitar app), Korg iM1, Waldorf Nave synth.

I use the iPad as an added sound module much of the time. A better Hammond/Leslie than the PC3 Leslie. However, I do use the iPad alone (with controller) for "quickies" like when the choir performs two numbers in a choral sing event.

I have a Macbook Pro with Mainstage - probably better for some things, but can't beat the iPad for simple "git her done." I even have Module and part of the add-ins on the iPhone 6 for ultra-minature setup. Nice load in and out like a piccolo player.

I did at one time use a Windows notebook, docking station, and Audio/MIDI card. Found that the extra precision of the mouse didn't really help if I was trying to play with one hand, and mouse about on the screen to move drawbars with the other. Way too fidgety overall. Setup time, concern over breakage or theft.

I would have the iPads anyhow for use in my work - just made sure to get larger memory to have room for the apps. I have maybe $125 or so total invested in all the apps, Lightning/USB cable, and audio cable.
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Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
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#2826400 - 01/07/17 01:07 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
zephonic Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Markay
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

A tablet is ergonomically better than a Mac laptop in a live rig... you can much more easily place it conveniently, and operate it by touch. It's a tougher call against a Windows tablet which shares those iPad attributes, but the iPad still has advantages in the fact that all its apps are touch-optimized, and that initial configuration (albeit within the greater limits of what it can do) is much more plug-and-play.


Could you provide a list of widely used VST's that are available on Windows that are not "touch optimised" in your experience. Big call given MS promote Windows 10 as touch optimised on desktop, laptop, tablet and phone, or maybe not, compared to iOS, once you provide some examples.

And any examples of how iOS is superior to Windows 10 from a plug and play perspective?


No VST instruments I know of are currently optimized for touch. Their GUI's are all designed for point and click.

Core Audio and Core MIDI make iOS great for this stuff right out of the box. Windows doesn't have that.


On a different note, I would prefer to use an iPad over a laptop for VI use. Once ARM approaches performance parity with x86 and the devs redesign their GUI's for multi-touch operation, I see no advantages in sticking with MacOS.


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#2826435 - 01/07/17 08:50 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: zephonic]
hurricane hugo Offline
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well, there's this: https://www.synclavier.com/
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#2826439 - 01/07/17 09:52 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: hurricane hugo]
Roland_Guy Offline
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24GB piano's for iOS

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/colossus-piano/id1122637899?mt=8

Are we starting to see more notebook sized instruments headed to iOS. I see iPad Air 2 is recommended.
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#2826467 - 01/07/17 11:53 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Roland_Guy]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Roland_Guy
24GB piano's for iOS

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/colossus-piano/id1122637899?mt=8

Are we starting to see more notebook sized instruments headed to iOS. I see iPad Air 2 is recommended.

Interesting! Actually, it's 3 sets of piano samples, one is 14 GB, one is 6 GB, and one is 3.4 GB; and they recommend that the 14 GB one only be used on newer i-devices that have at least 2 GB of RAM in them. Still, I think this is the first app which can actually play a sample set that is substantially larger than the available memory (RAM). Since no one had done this, I wasn't even sure iOS supported it.

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#2826505 - 01/07/17 03:39 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
roygbiv Offline
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Registered: 05/04/15
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Loc: Pacific NW
Korg Module with all its controls mapped to a cheap MIDI controller (used Korg Nanoktroller or Arturia units can be found for less than $50).

Pretty nice sound module for less than $100 total.

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#2826694 - 01/08/17 04:23 PM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Markay

Could you provide a list of widely used VST's that are available on Windows that are not "touch optimised" in your experience. Big call given MS promote Windows 10 as touch optimised on desktop, laptop, tablet and phone, or maybe not, compared to iOS, once you provide some examples.

Regardless of Microsoft's claim, I find it difficult to navigate Windows entirely by touch on a 10" tablet (standard iPad size), and practically impossible on an 8" tablet (iPad Mini size). Menus, dialog boxes, etc., are all too small and close together. I'm talking about the entire environment, not just specific apps or VSTs. But the menus and dialog boxes within VSTs and hosting apps have the same issue. To me, the system still has the feel of not having been developed for touch control, but rather having had touch control foisted upon it... and sometimes it works okay, and sometimes not so much.

Originally Posted By: Markay
And any examples of how iOS is superior to Windows 10 from a plug and play perspective?

Seriously?

Short version:

IOS: Plug in your MIDI keyboard. Launch app store. Type the name of the app you want (Korg iM1, Galileo organ, whatever). Click to buy/download. Click to launch. Start playing.

Win10: Plug in your MIDI keyboard. Launch web browser, search to locate, then download and install a VST host (Cantabile, whatever). Probably register/enter a serial number. Install, answering a whole bunch of configuration questions. (Probably locate, download, and install ASIO4ALL as well.) Then go back to the browser and locate and download a VST (say, VB3). You'll need to select 32 or 64 bit version. Open your downloads folder and unzip it. Probably move the file to another location (i.e. your plug-ins folder). Figure out how to load it into your host and route your MIDI into it and your audio out of it. Then figure out why it's not working. ;-)

(Honestly, I actually recently tried to load VB3 into Cantabile, and was not successful in getting sound out of it, or in getting the VB3 display itself to be much bigger than postage stamp size. But I didn't read the manual. But then, there's no need to read a manual for the IOS approach.)

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#2826801 - 01/09/17 05:10 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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Sounds like you are not bothered by the limitations and restrictions of IOS. If not, great. Go for it. Those of us that prefer to use a notebook, it is not because we are stupid. We just prefer a different environment. To each his own.
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#2826845 - 01/09/17 08:26 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: RABid]
AnotherScott Offline
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Originally Posted By: RABid
Sounds like you are not bothered by the limitations and restrictions of IOS. If not, great. Go for it. Those of us that prefer to use a notebook, it is not because we are stupid. We just prefer a different environment. To each his own.

Of course! And I never insulted anyone who uses a notebook, and am also perfectly aware of the numerous limitations of IOS. I was only responding to your comment, "other than cost I see no benefit of using an iPad over a notebook" - each environment has benefits. And when I pointed out iPad benefits, Markay asked for specific examples, so I provided them. But sure, to each his own!

Originally Posted By: RABid
I find it easier to sit a notebook on the right side of my JP80, Virus TI or any other keyboard with a knob-free flat area than to come up with a mount for the iPad. I could lay the iPad on the same spot but they are easier to slide around and I prefer to view an upright screen.

Coming up with a mount is not a difficult thing to do. Here's the one I use. It gives me the upright screen that you and I both prefer, and it fits on almost any keyboard, since it requires much less free panel space than a notebook (about 4" square). It can hold the iPad Mini, regular size, or jumbo pro, either horizontally or vertically as you prefer, height and tilt angle are easily adjustable.



Originally Posted By: RABid
Also, lack of touch on my MacBookPro does not really bother me. I find a mouse pointer to be more exact than the fat tip of my finger and a proper keyboard really speeds up searching for a sound.
Personally, if I were going to use a MacBook in a live gigging situation (which is something I still might do), I'd probably either mirror the screen to my iPad or use an IOS app like Set List Maker or iMidiPatchbay to send Program Change commands to the MacBook, rather than use a mouse and keyboard to navigate between sounds, which seems not so desirable to me mid-song. Here's a video showing one approach to a Mainstage screen that looks like it would be handy to operate by touch via remote iPad display...


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#2827029 - 01/10/17 04:16 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Markay Offline
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This thread evolved into a collection of the most bizarre comments on iOS v OSX v Windows v Hosts v legacy VST's I figured I might as well stoke the fire further.

Taking most of the points raised with being bothered to snip and quote.

Tablet Optimized GUI's.

I shudder every time this gets raised in my work place. It all comes down to throwing away 90% of the functionality of a fully featured web app or spreading the content of one screen over nine screens once 'optimized' for 10" or 5" touch device.

Consider a B3 emulation example, the draw bars on a B3 take up about 6" from left to right, a physical dimension that has worked well for the past 80 odd years. Put them on a 10" screen, which measures about 8" across and that's most of your screen real estate gone. Swipe right for rotary and percussion controls or shrink them to 20% of their original size?

There is also the vast difference between operating virtual drawbars with no tactile response and having to look at what your figures are touching. Not ideal for live gigging.

A real time example of the practicalities of a touch optimised interface is the piano keybed on a tablet. One octave, swipe left for the next higher, swipe right to go down an octave. Brings a new meaning to "hand independence".

Which leads into concept of swipe v qwerty keybed and mouse. The whole point of Host software is that you control everything from your controller. I don't touch the laptop except to turn it on and off. All the live control of a B3 VI including draw bars, rotary etc. is done from the physical controls, sliders, knobs and buttons on one or more controllers connected by USB to the laptop.

That includes patch and set list change, instant response, one button and I am there. This feature supported by all Hosts, I cannot think of any reason why touching a screen on tablet running a Set list app could in any way be "better".

A Host on a laptop means a really a simple setup. One power supply to the laptop which powers one or more controllers and the audio interface. Plug em in to their USB ports turn on and you are good to go. On a Mac it boots straight into MainStage in Perform mode. Much simpler than a tablet.

As for newby comments on Windows on tablets, well is anyone surprised a legacy app last updated when Win 7 was still fresh struggles with touch 6 years later?

I use a Windows tablet daily " in tablet mode" and find it to be snappy and functional. There isn't much in it between Android and iOS but if I had to pick only one it would be Win 10 - if only because I could run Cantabile and fully functional VI's on it.

Like all tablets it would be connectivity challenged which is just one big reason why I wouldn't replace a laptop with a tablet.

If going into settings to find out whether you are running a 32 or 64 bit OS or 2 minutes to do a one time install of an ASIO driver is too bigger slice out of your life then it is clearly not for you. Choosing an audio out is also going to take a minute or two, one time, on a Mac also, life gets complicated when you are presented with choices, like say buffer settings.

Which brings us to audio and midi latency which I know exists in OSX and Windows but seems magically never to get a mention when iOS music apps are discussed.
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#2827043 - 01/10/17 06:07 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
zukskywalker Offline
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Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 442
Loc: Washington DC
I think that latency is not discussed much in iOS because right out of the box it's pretty good. Somewhat app dependent with minor buffer adjustments here and there but feel good, real good, straightaway.
No drivers, no asio4all, and everything pretty much talks to everything inside the box. With a decent controller(or set of controllers: read:Galileo) you're off to the races.
(IMHO)

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#2827084 - 01/10/17 08:17 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: zukskywalker]
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
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There are at least two completely different focus on using a computer (tablet or notebook) for music.
The person who wants to gig with a MIDI controller controlling various software primarily for potential better sound quality and variety is more likely to be satisfied with the notebook. Then comes the choice (usually) between Windows and Mac. I've used both - both work, but I will say that the Mac is less "fidgety."

My use tends mostly to be either auxiliary or "quickie." In auxiliary, I'm using one of the PC3s and want some added sounds. I leave a PC2 and PC3 at church, it is easy to add the iPad for some Module Hammond/Leslie, plug in a couple of connections, turn on, set Airplane Mode and no Screen Lock, open app - done.
More frequently, I'm doing something casual, and want to haul the absolute minimum gear. For that, the MIDI controller and iPad really works.

I still have two Windows based DAWs, they don't get used a whole lot, but they are paid for and will remain. My portable gear includes the Macbook Pro, Focusrite 18i8, and the iPads.

So - there are a variety of different needs, no reason to expect one method to be the best for everyone.
_________________________
Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
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#2827088 - 01/10/17 08:29 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: MoodyBluesKeys]
Sven Golly Offline
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I'll say this. If you're reaching for your mouse to change something on your laptop in the middle of a gig, you're doing it wrong. wink snax
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#2827100 - 01/10/17 09:15 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Offline
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Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 9330
Originally Posted By: Markay
Tablet Optimized GUI's.

I shudder every time this gets raised in my work place. It all comes down to throwing away 90% of the functionality of a fully featured web app or spreading the content of one screen over nine screens once 'optimized' for 10" or 5" touch device.

You had suggested that Windows 10 and its VSTs are perfectly well touch optimized ("Could you provide a list of widely used VST's that are available on Windows that are not "touch optimised" in your experience. Big call given MS promote Windows 10 as touch optimised"), but now that I explained how they really aren't, you seem to be saying "well, touch orientation sucks anyway." Of course, that's a completely different argument, and more a matter of opinion than fact.

But if you want to go that way, what I like about touch orientation on live gigging is that if you want the ability to easily access the system during performance, touchscreen requires less space on your keyboard (about 4" square using the stand I showed, so I can easily fit it on almost any keyboard I want, unlike something with a screen, keyboard, and mouse), and you can operate the on-screen control more quickly by reaching toward the control and putting your fingertip right on it than you can by reaching for the mouse and then moving the mouse so that the pointer is over the control.

Of course that doesn't mean touch is the perfect interface for all items in all instances.

Originally Posted By: Markay
Consider a B3 emulation example, the draw bars on a B3 take up about 6" from left to right, a physical dimension that has worked well for the past 80 odd years. Put them on a 10" screen, which measures about 8" across and that's most of your screen real estate gone. Swipe right for rotary and percussion controls or shrink them to 20% of their original size?

There is also the vast difference between operating virtual drawbars with no tactile response and having to look at what your figures are touching. Not ideal for live gigging.

Obviously, real tactile controls are best. These controls, if you have them, will work equally well on a touchscreen or non-touchscreen based soft-organ. If you don't have hard controls, I'd still rather adjust a drawbar with a direct finger on a screen than with a mouse, though.

Also, even with physical controls, there are varying levels of functionality... i.e. things that specifically look like drawbars vs the use of multi-function control surface faders, how far apart they are spaced, whether you have a full 9 of them, the presence/location of all the ancillary controls like percussion and CV and whether you can tell how those controls are set by looking at them. So there are all kinds of solutions here, with different compromises. Touchscreens even offer their own advantage here, in that the visual of the drawbar settings and other controls can always match the sound. Many keyboards do not provide a visual representation of the current settings, so then maybe the combination of hard controls and a display is ideal.

Originally Posted By: Markay
A real time example of the practicalities of a touch optimised interface is the piano keybed on a tablet. One octave, swipe left for the next higher, swipe right to go down an octave. Brings a new meaning to "hand independence".

This is silly. One can think touchscreens are valuable without thinking that it's desirable to play a gig using on-screen keys rather than real keys. Though that said, if your keyboard failed, you could conceivably play *something* reasonable using onscreen keys, rather than packing up and going home! Not a reason I'd select a touchscreen device, though. ;-)

Originally Posted By: Markay
Which leads into concept of swipe v qwerty keybed and mouse. The whole point of Host software is that you control everything from your controller. I don't touch the laptop except to turn it on and off. All the live control of a B3 VI including draw bars, rotary etc. is done from the physical controls, sliders, knobs and buttons on one or more controllers connected by USB to the laptop.

That includes patch and set list change, instant response, one button and I am there.

"One button and I am there" only works if you have as many buttons as sounds you might need. For many people, that will not be the case.

Originally Posted By: Markay
one button and I am there. This feature supported by all Hosts, I cannot think of any reason why touching a screen on tablet running a Set list app could in any way be "better".

Here are reasons it can be better, if your patch selection mechanism is in the same device as your sounds:

It gives you complete keyboard/controller independence. You can plug in any keyboard and instantly access all your patches... so you can pick the keyboard you like the feel/size/weight/features/internal sounds of, with no thought needed as to how well it works to send patch changes to your host (many boards are bad at that), or having to re-program anything for a different board, or think about having to supplement the rig with some other patch-changing control surface which would then, itself, become something else you have to find a place for. Having patch selection in the host means you plug in and go, on any keyboard, at any time. Even if you buy a new keyboard, or you're sitting in on someone else's rig, or using an emergency replacement for a board that went down, or showing up to a gig and plugging into a provided backline that isn't what you expected, or feel like using some other keyboard you may have because of some other requirement of the gig or just a whim. No space? Show up with your keytar and put the host device on your amp. ;-)

It sounds like you have a very specific, personally optimized rig that works for you, great. i.e. "All the live control...is done from the physical controls, sliders, knobs and buttons on one or more controllers connected by USB to the laptop. That includes patch and set list change..." But this requires very specific controllers that meet your needs and took, I assume, a bunch of rig-specific setup. Now, how much work will be required if you want to run your sounds from some other keyboard (i.e. one of the numerous scenarios described in the previous paragraph)? What if the boards that have the action/size/weight you want don't have the control features you want? It's great that your rig is perfect for you, but putting patch selection into the device that has the sounds means you can use any keyboard you want, and can swap a board out with no additional programming.

Another reason touching a screen on a tablet for patch selection can be better is that all your patch select buttons are then labeled with their names. No need to memorize patch locations or refer to a cheat sheet. Unless maybe you have a Kronos, this is a benefit that doesn't exist in most non-tablet setups.

Now, you may not need any of these things, but I think it addresses "I cannot think of any reason why touching a screen on tablet running a Set list app could in any way be 'better'. " There are obviously scenarios where it can be, even if they don't apply to you.

Originally Posted By: Markay
As for newby comments on Windows on tablets, well is anyone surprised a legacy app last updated when Win 7 was still fresh struggles with touch 6 years later?

You asked for example of widely used VSTs that wasn't great with touch. VB3 qualifies. But as I said, I was talking about the whole environment, including Windows 10 and Cantabile themselves, which are not legacy apps. They are usable by touch, if your screen is big enough, but not designed to be optimally operated that way in all respects. IOS is, obviously, by design. I'm not saying that should be everyone's goal... as your own experience shows, not everyone cares about touch. But *if* you care about touch, clearly, IOS is completely optimized for it, the Win10 environment is not, I don't think this is reasonably disputable.

Originally Posted By: Markay
If going into settings to find out whether you are running a 32 or 64 bit OS or 2 minutes to do a one time install of an ASIO driver is too bigger slice out of your life then it is clearly not for you.

Again, you are shifting the conversation. You asked "Any examples of how iOS is superior to Windows 10 from a plug and play perspective?" I provided a description of some of the extra steps needed for Windows. I didn't say that all the extra steps are too complicated to do or aren't offset by other benefits. What I am saying is that they do make the system less plug and play. You have to spend some time assembling the bits and figuring out how to make them work. Again, I don't think this is reasonably disputable. Now, once you have the systems completely configured to do what you want, sure, there's no longer any real difference in how long it takes to get them up and running at a gig. But there's a lot more than a 2 minute difference in initial setup, to just get some basic sounds and functionality out of them, or to load a new plug-in/app into them.

Originally Posted By: Markay
Choosing an audio out is also going to take a minute or two, one time, on a Mac also

Mac vs Windows is a whole different conversation than iPad vs. laptop. iPad has certain (though different) advantages over both Mac and Win laptops, just as each of those laptop systems have certain (but different) advantages over iPads (and over each other). Overall, I guess I'd say IOS is easier than Mac, which is easier than Windows; Windows has more total functionality than Mac, which has more total functionality than IOS.

Originally Posted By: Markay
Which brings us to audio and midi latency which I know exists in OSX and Windows but seems magically never to get a mention when iOS music apps are discussed.

I've seen it mentioned plenty. Often as a reason people don't use iOS. ;-) I think the difference is, you can't do much about it. An app will typically have a setting, and either it works well enough for you on your device or it doesn't, and you use it or don't use it accordingly. So iOS latency doesn't lead to any of the "tweaking" conversations that you see when talking about laptops. Basically, on an iPad, you need to put it in airplane mode, and watch how many apps you're running at the same time, and that's pretty much all you can do, other than buy a more powerful iPad. So there's not much to discuss, compared to evaluating different interfaces, installing more RAM or a faster drive, or making other software changes to a Windows system.

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#2827277 - 01/11/17 03:18 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
Markay Offline
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 2056
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

But if you want to go that way, what I like about touch orientation on live gigging is that if you want the ability to easily access the system during performance, touchscreen requires less space on your keyboard (about 4" square using the stand I showed, so I can easily fit it on almost any keyboard I want, unlike something with a screen, keyboard, and mouse), and you can operate the on-screen control more quickly by reaching toward the control and putting your fingertip right on it than you can by reaching for the mouse and then moving the mouse so that the pointer is over the control.

Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
I'll say this. If you're reaching for your mouse to change something on your laptop in the middle of a gig, you're doing it wrong. wink snax
facepalm
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#2827295 - 01/11/17 05:31 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: Markay]
AnotherScott Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 9330
Originally Posted By: Markay
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott

But if you want to go that way, what I like about touch orientation on live gigging is that if you want the ability to easily access the system during performance, touchscreen requires less space on your keyboard (about 4" square using the stand I showed, so I can easily fit it on almost any keyboard I want, unlike something with a screen, keyboard, and mouse), and you can operate the on-screen control more quickly by reaching toward the control and putting your fingertip right on it than you can by reaching for the mouse and then moving the mouse so that the pointer is over the control.

Originally Posted By: Sven Golly
I'll say this. If you're reaching for your mouse to change something on your laptop in the middle of a gig, you're doing it wrong. wink snax
facepalm


Yup, we actually all agree that mousing live is a pretty bad idea! But that leads me back to, well, the rest of what I said in that long post. If you're not going to mouse (or computer-keyboard), and you don't want a touchscreen for patch selection, you end up with additional limitations in you choice of controller(s) (and no easy way to plug-and-go on any other controller on the fly) OR you'll want to employ some other external patch-changing device, which won't have dynamically labeled buttons and will often be more difficult to ergonomically place than a tablet would be. I'm sure there are various approaches that work for people, but touchscreen for patch selection solves a bunch of problems in a lot of situations.

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#2827309 - 01/11/17 07:02 AM Re: Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you? [Re: AnotherScott]
RABid Offline
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Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 11628
This is getting as bad as the Mac vs. PC and Nord vs. Korg arguments.

"My way is the only way and if you are doing something different then you are silly, stupid and wrong."

The thread is titled "Ipad synth apps now better still not atractive for you?" The question mark at the end lead me to believe that you want to hear why people are not attracted to using iPad on stage. Maybe the title should have been "Tell me why you like using the iPad on stage." Then people might be more likely to tell you what you want to hear.

I do understand the attraction. Hell, in the early 80's I was using a mini Casio 2 octave keyboard on stage. We played a lot of music by The Cars and it worked very well in that vein. The other keyboardist in the area had an Oberheim sitting on top of a CP-70. Now, I have the big setup in the form of a MacBook Pro. There is no reason for me to go back to playing the little Casio (iPad).

And by the way, studies have shown that a touchscreen is not more efficient than a mouse. A well placed mouse gives you a shorter reach, smaller movements, and more exact point and click. It really becomes evident when you try to mimic the abilities of the scroll wheel or right click when using only a touch screen. The main purpose of a tablet is to be easy to carry, and thus, no attachments such as a mouse to deal with. Convenience of portability. I would not carrying the iPad around on stage so I don't need to make sacrifices like small screen, no mouse and limited interface options. I'll choose the device with easy file management and flexible audio processing.

But like someone said, once you have your program loaded and set list pulled up, your master keyboard should be able to trigger program changes without reaching for the mouse or touchscreen.

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