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#2792418 - 07/24/16 08:01 AM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Bill H.]
Al Coda Offline
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Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 3852
Loc: The Rig
Originally Posted By: Bill H.


It's a 12 voice shocked


WOW !!!!

Maybe I´ve overseen it before,- but does it have dual-layer mode?

If yes, I´m in,- just only for the lush pads I used my Roland MKS70 for in the past.

A.C.

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#2792419 - 07/24/16 08:12 AM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Al Coda]
AllanH Offline
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Registered: 02/26/15
Posts: 22
Loc: Central Coast, California, USA
Very organic and analog sound. Looking forward to the details.
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#2792436 - 07/24/16 11:18 AM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: AllanH]
Hoochie Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/05/15
Posts: 309
Surprised us all. Didn't he.
After reading a bunch of his direct answers to direct questions
over at the defacto x32 thread at soundforums.net (that dwarfs the SS amp thread here. It is in the millions of views)
I got the feeling he is trying really hard to man up.
Looking for legit cred in the pro world.
It led to the purchase of an x32, s16 stage box, and an xAir12.
Zero problem, high quality, and an extremely well done interface
at a price point that has changed the industry.

The blatant foreign copy madness was really not meant for professionals.
A lot of it was DJ gear. (Entry level disposable stuff)

Sure he bought Midas. It's the right step. He has the capital to take it further.
Make it the bell labs of the company.
R&D in the MI industry is little enough as it is. Most big names
are not big by any stretch.

And in the end he is a player.
I hope he has his own band.
I would probably dig it.

So bring it on Uli. This is going to be great.

John


Edited by Hoochie (07/24/16 11:21 AM)
Edit Reason: Noise level was too high

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#2792446 - 07/24/16 12:00 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Bill H.]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill H.


It's a 12 voice shocked


Holy crap. Boom!

Is it 12 voice at half the price of a OB6 or Prophet 6? Or is it 12 voice at the same price point as those? They're distribution channels highly established. You'll be able to get your hands on this thing everywhere. And there will be a line. This is likely the flagship. The little snippets we're getting sound quite nice. I'm eager to play one!
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#2792448 - 07/24/16 12:09 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
MAJUSCULE Offline
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I posited $2,100 USD for this one, with a 4 to 6-voice coming out within six months of this release at around $1,000ish.

snax
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#2792454 - 07/24/16 12:38 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: tucktronix]
Synthoid Offline
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I'm hoping for $1499.
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#2792458 - 07/24/16 12:55 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Synthoid]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Let's see where the poly analogs are positioned....

OB6 - $2999, 6 voice obviously
Prophet 12 - $2999, 12 voice
Prophet 6 - $2799, 6 voice
Prophet 8 PE - $1799, 8 Voice
Elektron Analog Keys - $1349, 4 voice
Mopho x4 - $999, 4 voice

I guess it depends what the plan is... they may be able to get between $2 and $2.5k for their first outing. Or they may sell an awful lot of them at sub $2k.
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#2792460 - 07/24/16 01:10 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: brenner13]
Jim Alfredson Offline
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Now I'm interested.
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#2792463 - 07/24/16 01:45 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
DulceLabs.com Offline
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Registered: 04/21/13
Posts: 4817
Loc: Orlando, Florida
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Let's see where the poly analogs are positioned....

OB6 - $2999, 6 voice obviously
Prophet 12 - $2999, 12 voice
Prophet 6 - $2799, 6 voice
Prophet 8 PE - $1799, 8 Voice
Elektron Analog Keys - $1349, 4 voice
Mopho x4 - $999, 4 voice

I guess it depends what the plan is... they may be able to get between $2 and $2.5k for their first outing. Or they may sell an awful lot of them at sub $2k.



Don't forget the Korg Minilogue which is a 4-voice... that's $500. The Akai Timbre Wolf, although no gem, is also a 4-voice.. that's down to $250. They *may* be able to bring this in around $1500, although that would be a stretch.. but who knows? smile

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#2792472 - 07/24/16 02:34 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: DulceLabs.com]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 4773
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: DulceLabs.com


.... but who knows? smile


I want to play:

$895 street.

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#2792474 - 07/24/16 02:50 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Markyboard]
Bif_ Offline
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Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1226
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
Originally Posted By: DulceLabs.com


.... but who knows? smile


I want to play:

$895 street.


You beat me to it. I'm betting sub $1OOO and was going to guess $899 street.
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#2792475 - 07/24/16 02:54 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Bif_]
DulceLabs.com Offline
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Registered: 04/21/13
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Loc: Orlando, Florida
LMAO - Remember, whoever comes closest to the retail price, without going over, wins!

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#2792483 - 07/24/16 03:41 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: DulceLabs.com]
Bif_ Offline
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Registered: 05/16/09
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Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: DulceLabs.com
LMAO - Remember, whoever comes closest to the retail price, without going over, wins!


A BRAND NEW CAR!!!!!!

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#2792484 - 07/24/16 03:42 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Markyboard]
Synthoid Offline
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 9375
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: Markyboard
I want to play:

$895 street.


I'd be concerned with build quality at that price. frown
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#2792495 - 07/24/16 04:47 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Bill H.]
Marzzz Offline
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Registered: 11/24/00
Posts: 2294
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: Bill H.
It's a 12 voice shocked


Uh-oh, but does it resp...oh, never mind!

freak

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#2792497 - 07/24/16 05:06 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Marzzz]
Bif_ Offline
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Registered: 05/16/09
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Loc: Indiana
Analog synth with DCO's? Explain?
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#2792498 - 07/24/16 05:16 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Marzzz]
Markyboard Offline
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Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 4773
Loc: Springfield, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Marzzz
Originally Posted By: Bill H.
It's a 12 voice shocked


Uh-oh, but does it resp...oh, never mind!

freak


cheers

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#2792502 - 07/24/16 05:37 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Bif_]
davedoerfler Offline
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Registered: 12/27/12
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Originally Posted By: Bif_
Analog synth with DCO's? Explain?


didn't the Roland Juno 106 have that same architecture? idk
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#2792505 - 07/24/16 05:52 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: davedoerfler]
DulceLabs.com Offline
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Registered: 04/21/13
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Loc: Orlando, Florida
Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
Originally Posted By: Bif_
Analog synth with DCO's? Explain?


didn't the Roland Juno 106 have that same architecture? idk


That seems to be the way they are doing things these days. It's a hybrid thing. Digital osc. and then an analog filter I think. I'm no engineer so someone smarter than me will have to talk about the nitty gritty's.

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#2792511 - 07/24/16 06:17 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: DulceLabs.com]
David Emm Offline
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Registered: 09/14/12
Posts: 887
Loc: On Mars, due to GPS error
I'm amused at people's ire over the tease. Isn't that the way most-to-many companies do it? Stoke a little debate and expectation; finally show a full picture & spec list; and then sit back while half the crowd marries the idea before twenty of them hit the streets and the other half auto-swear that its a work of pure swill. I'll reserve my irrelevant judgement until after I really hear it, thanks. wave
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#2792519 - 07/24/16 07:01 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Bif_]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bif_
Analog synth with DCO's? Explain?

A DCO is an analog oscillator under digital control, as opposed to an analog oscillator under voltage control (VCO). Both are analog oscillators.

Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
didn't the Roland Juno 106 have that same architecture? idk

Yes. And the JX-8P/MKS70. And the Matrix 6, 6R and 1000. And a bunch more, including pretty much every Dave Smith synth.

dB
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#2792523 - 07/24/16 07:36 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Dave Bryce]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5358
Loc: Washington DC
Seen on the MW forum, which in turn was copy-pasted from, reportedly, Uli's post on Gear Slutz:

Quote:
I like to clarify that these are 12 voices with each 2 DCO's and 2 LFO’s. The oscillators are DCO’s, which means these are digitally controlled analog oscillators; so the synth has 24 full-blown analog oscillators.

Once we reveal the board assembly images, you will discover the thousands of discrete components that went into this design and the extreme density of the multi-layer boards. This synth is a true engineering masterpiece from our Midas engineers, a company that is famous for making the world’s best mixing consoles.
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#2792524 - 07/24/16 07:46 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: GovernorSilver]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 4964
Loc: USA, greater NY area


You know, this was shared earlier by Uli regarding their efforts to move into synths, Back in January I think?

"Dear all,

Thank you for the great comments and questions.

Allow me to give you some background about us entering the synthesizer market.

Over the past few years I have seen that a strong demand for analog synthesizers has resurfaced. This is wonderful, not only because of my personal passion for those instruments, but I always believed that digital synthesizers simply do not match the sound of the legacy analog synthesizers (and there are physical reasons for this).

I grew up with these analog jewels and vividly remember when products such as Juno and Prophet 5 were released. In those days, most of these synthesizers were simply unaffordable not only for me, but most other musicians.
In fact this was a major reason why I built my own synthesizer almost 40 years ago.

Over the years, we have repeatedly been asked by our customers to build synthesizers and in 2010 we decided to move forward with his project. We started a research project and also conducted surveys with a German magazine called amazona.de. We even did a quick rendering to gather feedback about interest in a Juno redesign.

Frankly, the response was overwhelming and we subsequently came up with a detailed plan and roadmap. That included a whole series of classic analog synthesizers, including many popular legacy synthesizers including the Arp Odyssey, Mini Moog, Juno, Prophet 5, etc., but also completely new designs.

In order to pursue our plans, we realized that we needed specific engineering horse power in both the analog and digital domains. On the analog side, because most classic designs are based on Curtis/SSM chips which are no longer available, we looked into replacing these legacy components with equivalent parts with exactly the same functionality. We partnered up with a semiconductor foundry Coolaudio and developed analog and mixed architecture semiconductors such as VCA’s and the highly desirable BBD’s (Bucket Brigade Delay lines) used in analog chorus and delay effects such as the original Juno’s etc.
At the same time we studied the legacy Curtis and SSM chips and we’re in the process of designing our own versions of these highly regarded IC's in collaboration with Coolaudio.

However analog synthesizers only make sense now if you combine them with the control and functionality of today’s synthesizers, so we researched the requirements of a digital control system that would combine the sophistication expected of modern digital synthesizers with the immediacy of classic analog VCO and VCF circuits.
It is my strong belief that the real power of synthesizers only comes to life when you combine the amazing sound of analog with the modern functionality of digital technology - very much a case of combining the best of both worlds.

In recent years we acquired Midas and Klark Teknik, one of the most prestigious mixing console and signal processing companies. 40 years ago it was Midas who built sound systems for Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Frank Zappa and many other world-famous bands. This was exactly the time, when these legendary synthesizers were born.
If you look up Midas and Klark Teknik, you will see that these amazing engineers design not only today’s most respected analog products, but also the industry’s most complex and sophisticated DSP and FPGA based digital mixing consoles and other audio products.

But what does that have to do with Synthesizers?

If you look at modern synthesizers, you will understand that while analog technology has its own challenges, such as component tolerances and parameter drift, thermionic noise etc., the biggest complexity lies on the digital side with storage, sequencer, FX etc.
Luckily, we have not only some of the world’s best digital engineers, but also an analog designer and industry icon called John Price who has over 40 years of analog experience. John is considered a legend in the audio industry and it is no surprise that he loves synthesizers, too.

Leveraging our team of legendary talent, we have now assembled a team of the finest engineers to form our new Synthesizer Division.
However we are also looking to recruit more talent and we invite everyone here to watch out for job openings. It’s a very exciting time as the first prototypes are already playing music and the team is working around the clock to incorporate their new ideas.

You are our biggest collaborator and we will continue to engage you on forums and bounce off ideas to see how you feel about our progress. While we cannot promise to incorporate every idea, we will promise to carefully listen. So feel free and share your ideas.

Our plan is to build several classics and also some completely new concepts - monophonic as well as polyphonic synthesizers and classic analog as well as digital synthesizers.
Will we be making an Odyssey? Frankly, we always had the Odyssey on our roadmap and among the several legacy synthesizers we intend to build, our version of the Odyssey will be different, with full-size keys, multi-mode filters and full digital control, potentially a sequencer and arpeggiator, as well as high-end effects from our award-winning X32 digital mixing console.
At the end more models mean more choices for customers, and that is a good thing.

However we like to manage expectations; since building synthesizers is a complex and long-term project, it will take some time for us to release actual products. But we intend to keep you informed, and hopefully soon we can release the first video of our prototypes.

Finally I would like to thank you for your support and encourage you to communicate with us on the usual forums and our social media sites as we will continue to ask for your opinions.

Happy New Year!

Uli
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#2792525 - 07/24/16 07:48 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: GovernorSilver]
Marzzz Offline
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Registered: 11/24/00
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Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Seen on the MW forum, which in turn was copy-pasted from, reportedly, Uli's post on Gear Slutz:

Quote:
This synth is a true engineering masterpiece from our Midas engineers, a company that is famous for making the world’s best mixing consoles.
And they make a decent muffler too.... rimshot

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#2792526 - 07/24/16 07:54 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Dave Bryce]
piano39 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/05/10
Posts: 331
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: Bif_
Analog synth with DCO's? Explain?

A DCO is an analog oscillator under digital control, as opposed to an analog oscillator under voltage control (VCO). Both are analog oscillators.

Originally Posted By: davedoerfler
didn't the Roland Juno 106 have that same architecture? idk

Yes. And the JX-8P/MKS70. And the Matrix 6, 6R and 1000. And a bunch more, including pretty much every Dave Smith synth.

dB


Not necessarily. The hardest module in a synth to make is the VCO, since the ear is so sensitive to pitch variations. Computers (or digital circuits) are binary, meaning that the voltage is either at low level (0 or off) or high level (1 or on). Digital oscillators just switch between off and on- This generates a square wave. They are very cheap to make and can be very precise, frequency-wise. The problem with a digital oscillator is that since it only outputs a square wave, you need analog circuits to shape the wave.

My point is that a DCO is not an analog oscillator, it is digital. At some root level it is controlled digitally, but as far as the synth player is concerned, it is voltage controlled. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to use all the other synthesizer voltage controllers (LFOs, envelope generators, etc) to control the pitch of the oscillator.

Sorry for the screed. But it is possible that by using DCOs instead of VCOs, Behringer made the most expensive part of the synth very cheap. That is why they can do 12 oscillators.
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#2792528 - 07/24/16 07:59 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: Marzzz]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 4964
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He (Uli Behringer) is actively fielding questions here:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?p=12030219

You know, Uli is a registered/posting Keyboard Corner member, last time we saw him was 2015
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2716153/Re_A_synth_by_Behringer#Post2716153

Maybe Dave can reach out and get him back to field questions here as well.

I'd like to know how many filters per voice and what's in there as far as fx?

Is this synth reminiscent of the JX-8p? Crumar DS-2? Matrix 12?
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#2792530 - 07/24/16 08:17 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 5358
Loc: Washington DC
Yeah I remember Uli posting here, and I'm sure several others remember him too.

Until he chooses to return here, I see nothing wrong with sharing what one finds on other forums concerning this synth.


Edited by GovernorSilver (07/24/16 08:18 PM)
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#2792531 - 07/24/16 08:22 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: GovernorSilver]
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Registered: 11/30/14
Posts: 4964
Loc: USA, greater NY area
twothumbs
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#2792536 - 07/24/16 09:52 PM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Beethree Offline
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Posts: 1509
If truly under a grand or in that neighborhood- I will look long and hard at it. I'm plotting for an OB-6, and kind of need a poly for a near-future project, but if it is %70 of the DSI board for half the money...
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#2792549 - 07/25/16 04:33 AM Re: Behringer coming out with an analog synth..?? [Re: piano39]
JB Sherry Online   content
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Registered: 03/17/07
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From Wikipedia's article about DCO's:

...Many voltage-controlled oscillators for electronic music are based on a capacitor charging linearly in an op-amp integrator configuration.[1] When the capacitor charge reaches a certain level, a comparator generates a reset pulse, which discharges the capacitor and the cycle begins again. This produces a rising ramp (or sawtooth) waveform, and this type of oscillator core is known as a ramp core.
...
The DCO was seen at the time as an improvement over the unstable tuning of VCOs. However, it shared the same ramp core, and the same limited range of waveforms.
...
A DCO can be considered as a VCO that is synchronised to an external frequency reference. The reference in this case is the reset pulses. These are produced by a digital counter such as the 8253 chip. The counter acts as a frequency divider, counting pulses from a high frequency master clock (typically several MHz) and toggling the state of its output when the count reaches some predetermined value. The frequency of the counter's output can thus be defined by the number of pulses counted, and this generates a square wave at the required frequency. The leading edge of this square wave is used to derive a reset pulse to discharge the capacitor in the oscillator's ramp core. This ensures that the ramp waveform produced is of the same frequency as the counter output.
----End Wiki

To put it in a nutshell, the same components are used to produce the waveforms. However, instead of a comparator to control the duty cycle of the waveform, a digital counter is used.

Or, even simpler: The waveform is analog. The precision of the pitch is digital.

I think I've seen some complaints about the pitch being too precise, and that the natural variation in a VCO is good for the tone. Which is true, until the pitch becomes so off that it's bad. laugh

Hope that helps.

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