Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[timwat]

Aspen,

 

Have you ever tried the "dummy head recording" technique to record the SS? I'm curious if that might do the spatial thing more justice...

 

Tim

[Aspen]

Meanwhile, Aspen, if you're watching, kudos! But please register me for a (sizable) early adopters discount on an SS4.

 

Rofox, first off, thanks for your enlightened reply to Worth...most informative and "spot on" (more Brit speak).

 

Second, let me assure you; the SS3 is not going anywhere...I am just catching up to the demand! Nor will it be replaced by an SS4 anytime soon. The SS3 has been a run away hit, perhaps the most well received product I have ever had in my 45+ years in this biz.

 

And third, if there were ever to be a new addition to the CPS family, you will surely HEAR about it HERE on this forum first; because I believe in family first!

[Aspen]

Aspen,

 

Have you ever tried the "dummy head recording" technique to record the SS? I'm curious if that might do the spatial thing more justice...

 

Tim

No dummy heads around here...mostly just old tube mics. But I'd love to try one someday.

[MotiDave]

If you take your L/R stereo signal and run it into your Ss3, now you've got a sum from the main and a subtraction in the side. If you then mic these two outputs and record to two tracks, let's call them, oh, L/R, and then play these new signals back thru an ss3, will these new sound waves suck the universe into its belly button like a marvel book vortex?

 

I don't think I get the point of trying to record the ss3 output vs just recording the L and R signal going into it. I might be missing something ...

[zaphod betamax]

A line level direct recording out of my board would not contain any of the room acoustics that the CPS imparts to the sound. Also, recording the sound acoustics into my FZ-1000 camera via a Rode Stereo Mic Pro (omni stereo) does not capture the nuances and stye of the CPS system.

 

Aspen mentions using M-S mic recording, which will capture the room acoustics and ambiance that the CPS imparts.

 

 

 

 

If you take your L/R stereo signal and run it into your Ss3, now you've got a sum from the main and a subtraction in the side. If you then mic these two outputs and record to two tracks, let's call them, oh, L/R, and then play these new signals back thru an ss3, will these new sound waves suck the universe into its belly button like a marvel book vortex?

 

I don't think I get the point of trying to record the ss3 output vs just recording the L and R signal going into it. I might be missing something ...

[Synthaholic]

Hope this loose jack on the Spacestation isn't going to get worse.

 

https://vid.me/ihmc

 

Also hoping that link works!

[SteinwayB]

Aspen,

Thank you for your detailed response. I should have pointed out how uniquely amazing this amp sounds (mono digital piano samples are fingernails on chalkboard) and I have been very happy with its performance. Your interest in the success of this product obviously goes way beyond financial; your passion is palpable. Thanks for your great work.

[TimA]

Aspen,

Your interest in the success of this product obviously goes way beyond financial; your passion is palpable. Thanks for your great work.

 

A whole-hearted second to that

[zxcvbnm098]

"The SS3 has been a run away hit, perhaps the most well received product I have ever had in my 45+ years in this biz."

 

For a guy like Aspen, who certainly has had a successful career in the MI industry, to say this is fascinating.

 

This entire product launch from him, coupled with this forum and his participation in it, should be a graduate level study on launching a niche product in the 21st century. It's a testament to his product and his willingness to participate with his customers here, and the power and quality of this forum.

 

I was almost going to say this could be template, but I'm not sure this would have happened in some of the other forums out there? Or other manufacturers?

[BornAgnMusician]

"I don't have any confidence really when it comes to electronics. but it is a very interesting suggestion . Is it fundamentally a difficult thing to replace the 8 inch speaker with say a 10 inch and would the cabinet be able to accommodate it ? If I could find someone to do that hypothetically , would they have to consider any other ramifications and if it didn't work, how easy would it be to put the SS back in the original configuration ?"

 

I told you I've tried the eminence coax speakers and they don't put out much bass no matter what the size. Parts express has 8 inch coax speakers that are better on the bass but they are pricey. My main point was the SS is about as good as it gets for its size. You are not going to find anything better -- this small. So if you can't find the space to add a small subwoofer. Good luck.

 

[Aspen]

T

I am open to anymore all in one preferably stereo type amps the good folks here might wish to suggest for my needs.

Hi Worth, I know we've covered this before but I can't recall; are you using the KB straight into the SS3, or is there a mixer in the middle?

 

A mixer improves the impedance matching, and gain structure, which in turn will improve the LF. And also a mixer might have an EQ and so could add some LF too....that might get you closer.

 

A mixer today can be quite small, much smaller than a small bass amp or sub. I am just wondering if you've tried that?

 

Lastly, the CX2008 8" in the SS3 is a custom made speaker with a poly cone and a foam surround. The voice coil is 2" and it has a massive custom coax magnet. It is as good an 8" as I could find, and I tried a bunch. I even had to coax (sorry, couldn't resist :>) Eminence USA custom into making it again after they had discontinued it because it was so expensive folks didn't buy enough to keep it in the line...now they only it (in the USA) for the SS3. In addition this spk/cab was seriously computer modeled to extend it's LF to the max.

 

Because we wanted to keep the small foot print, and considering the actual internal volume of the sealed Front cabinet is about 10x10x10"...I think we got the most out of this footprint; flat to 100Hz, and then only a -3 dB roll off per octave.

 

Everyone loves the size of the SS3, and frankly spoken it has covered gigs way beyond our original vision...to my great surprise I might add!

 

If I could have doubled the foot print, and kept the same 8" speaker (or gone larger) contained now in cab w/ an internal 20x20x20" (translates to a 24x24x24 OD), then I am pretty sure we could get down to 65-70Hz.

 

But of coarse to get that lower energy we'd also have to double the power too...big waves require big watts. So again, that adds weight...not to mention cpst!

 

Then also, a SS3+ may not fit in some cars and/or it could be too large to take on the subway, etc., etc.

 

I recall when we first met (via email) it was the size that originally attracted you to the SS3. I doubt you would have even considered such a larger SS3+...not to mention one that would cost another $300+.

 

FYI, I thought about adding a built in sub woofer component to the SS3...then I sat down until the thought went away! I realized for another $300 (or less) anyone could probably add a powered sub (thee were dozens to choose from). In this way, they could make the call themselves. And in reality, many have...while many (if not most) others don't miss a sub. Especially true if one is in a bass w/ a bass player who owns that area.

 

Regarding product design, and I have done or have been involved in maybe 100+ over my career, really everything is a trade off. So you know going in that you will never be able to please everyone....so you try to please yourself (Ricky Nelson said that best).

 

That said, I think we have turned a new page in live sound with the Center Point Stereo technology. We can deliver what no other speaker system ever could; uniform 3D (bigger than) stereo image that permeates thru out any venue, large or small, inside and out. IMHO, no other stereo amp I know of can make that claim.

 

Certainly nobody is complaining about our "lack of depth", or image.

 

But if it's broad band fidelity, and you don't mind giving up our 3D stereo image...then IMHO I think the QSC family of powered monitors are excellent.

 

Just my 2 cents, and well worth that.

 

[Worth]

Thanks for all your responses. I recognise the specialness of the CPS amp. And it is its uniqueness that attracted me to it in the first place and why I am still 70 to 80% happy with what it does. I know that there probably isn't an amp in this class that can do what I want to do to get me to 100% without compromise elsewhere that I wouldn't be able to tolerate.

 

Thanks Aspen for all your assistance. You're correct I plugged my keyboard directly into the amp with out a mixer in the chain . I will see if adding a mixer can get me some more bottom end out of this amp. Thanks again everybody.

[BornAgnMusician]

Aspen -- I've heard on other blogs taking two monitors and facing them at each other sort of creates the effect of SS. It doesn't seem to ring true. The SS speakers are at 90 degrees to each other and the side speaker is L - R. The front of the side speaker is in phase and the back of the side is out of phase. The complexities happening are like trying to map the reverberations at each frequency against each wall over a 30 second time period. Definitely a chaotic equation. It seems the sound of two speakers facing each other would only push two in phase sound fronts at each other creating a directional figure eight pattern.

[BornAgnMusician]

I've also found a mixer helps with the overall sound quality of any keyboard amp or powered speaker. Never leave home without it.

[Aspen]

Aspen -- I've heard on other blogs taking two monitors and facing them at each other sort of creates the effect of SS. It doesn't seem to ring true. The SS speakers are at 90 degrees to each other and the side speaker is L - R. The front of the side speaker is in phase and the back of the side is out of phase. The complexities happening are like trying to map the reverberations at each frequency against each wall over a 30 second time period. Definitely a chaotic equation. It seems the sound of two speakers facing each other would only push two in phase sound fronts at each other creating a directional figure eight pattern.

 

Hmmm, I haven't actually tried that, but assuming the 2 speakers are typical L&R, (and in theory) that should only exacerbate phase cancellations we experience when standing outside the "sweet spot".

 

You suspicion that this configuration may not "ring true" might be the understatement of the audio year.

 

That said, I am sure there are probably those who may enjoy that listening experience....

[BornAgnMusician]

Ha, Ha, Ha !!!! That is so true.

[Polychrest]

We're setting up on stage in a hot steamy hall when a bass player I haven't seen for a couple of years walks in. He scopes our gear and locks in on my Spacestation, which he's never seen before.

 

"Who brought the dehumidifier?"

 

His post-show verdict? Best keyboard dehumidifier he'd ever heard.

[Aspen]

We're setting up on stage in a hot steamy hall when a bass player I haven't seen for a couple of years walks in. He scopes our gear and locks in on my Spacestation, which he's never seen before.

 

"Who brought the dehumidifier?"

 

His post-show verdict? Best keyboard dehumidifier he'd ever heard.

 

LOL 5x hard...very funny stuff!

 

Thanks for this, made my day.

[BornAgnMusician]

Aspen -- I am sure you tried using two speakers (in phase) for the L-R part of the design. What happened? And why did you go with just one speaker (not talking about cost which is an obvious)? It's the engineering side of me that is curious. (I used to be an electronic/aerospace engineer.)

[Rofox]

There's 158 pages of wisdom and experience to read through but Aspen may offer you a short-cut. (I'm an engineer in an entirely different discipline)

[Aspen]

Aspen -- I am sure you tried using two speakers (in phase) for the L-R part of the design. What happened? And why did you go with just one speaker (not talking about cost which is an obvious)? It's the engineering side of me that is curious. (I used to be an electronic/aerospace engineer.)

 

Good questions! Actually there were many previous designs where I did use 2 side speakers (but always out of phase, for obvious reasons; they sound better like that, and the 3D effect is enhanced. Technically speaking though, we wanted them to function as one dipole transducer, not 2 speakers, for uniform audio clarity).

 

In all of my early (released) designs the side speaker(s) are open and "centered" directly under the Front speaker to get maximum 3D stereo effect. I used dual speakers in most the early designs to be able to get more acoustical output because of the challenges of an open baffle design (of coarse a close cabinet design increases the efficiency for any speaker design and would have put it in acoustical better balance with the Front speaker, but also would be more difficult to "center" under the Front speaker, and so lose some of the dispersion interaction I was trying to maximize for "stereo effect").

 

I have a dozen prototypes that never made it to production, and there were several that did make it to market under the "Groove Tubes Custom Shop SFX" brand. I offered components to build custom systems; an E1 CPS encoder (inhaled L&R, exhaled Front and Side) that could be used with any conventional stereo amp or dual mono amps to drive these larger "SFX" speakers.

 

NOTE to SFX brand origins: because by this time I had licensed our CPS patent to Fender, and because they wanted their own "brand name" which became "Stereo Field Expansion" (SFX), I decided to ride my products on their coat tails (and ad budget) to associate our patented technology with their brand...with their permission of coarse. Later when I had sold my GT company to Fender in 2008 (but did NOT sell my CPS patent which they are still licensing BTW), I decided to revert to the original name of the patent; Center Point Stereo and build that brand going forward. The CPS Spacestation v.3 is the first product I've done using this brand.

 

These early GT Custom shop SFX systems were just great (I still use mine daily), because it allowed a player to build a system around his own amps and even his own speakers (we made S12 and S15 side speakers so he could keep his own for a front system) . The front amp/speaker could be a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe for a guitar player, or a QSC PA monitor for a keyboard player, for which we just made these open baffle Side cabs (2x drivers that were facing in out of phase configuration) that acted as a Front speaker platform, and so sat directly under the players Front speaker.

 

I sold Ted Nugent a system like this at our first NAMM show debut. A fun story here; Peavey had paid for Ted's attendance to promote one of their new amps, but not to "play for the crowd". However "after the autograph session" as he strolled by our booth, he heard Jimmy Wiggle (our GT engineer and demo guy) playing Cat Scratch Fever. He stopped dead in his tracks, grabs Jimmy's guitar and played for like a half an hour until the NAMM folks shut us down. Ted LOVED that big 3D sound and just couldn't stop playing. Then he asked "where are the other speakers?" He couldn't believe he was listening to a single speaker. He ordered one on the spot! That was an SFX G3 (3x 12" guitar speakers) with a Trio preamp, and E1 SFX encoder driving a Dual 75 tube amp. (all tube amplification of coarse!)

 

I also built a custom E1/K5 Keyboard system for Ray Manzarek's last tour with the 21st century DOORS. That used one 15" McCauley 15" coax system w/ a McCauly mid driver for the K5 Front speaker system, and two G85K 12" Celestion keyboard speakers for the side system. These were pushed by a stereo 1,000 watt QSC rackmount amp we specially modified with w E1 encoder inside of the amp. It sounded just awesome and kept up with Robbie's double stack! But just the McCauly coax speakers were well over $1,200 at my cost! I have pictures of Ray on stage with that rig somewhere, I should get them up in our archive section of Aspen & Associates.

 

But while these early SFX component systems were AMAZINGLY good sounding, they were REALLY expensive (and bulky). I doubt we'd be selling many in today's market (we didn't sell many then either : > )

 

FYI, we do have catalogs and pix of these early Groove Tubes Custom Shop SFX product, showing all these early systems, at our A&A website, under "Support", then PDF archive": http://aspenandassoc.com/pdf-archieve/

 

NOTE: this is a new site and still has a few bugs I am just finding. IE: just noticed we misspelled "Archive" and also that the old SFX catalog I refer to here is (currently) misnamed "Spacestation MK2". I have asked our web master to correct that, and add in the real MK2 spec sheet, plus a "White Paper" on our patent I wrote in the beginning that answers a lot of questions I get here, but it is the weekend...

 

Lastly I will say that these early systems were bulky and expensive, and in keeping with the times (and age of our end users), when designing the new Spacestation v.3 I tried to maximize the CPS effect, the audio fidelity, and SPL output, while minimizing the footprint...and "wallet dent".

 

Therefore, with all the above history, and many speaker configuration designs (both released and unreleased) behind me, I settled on four Class D switching amps, three of those used in a 3-way electronic x-over Front speaker system (computer modeled of coarse) and one for the specially designed single side speaker that has a Donut style magnet with a hole thru it's back and an internal protection grill (look down the hole of your SS3 side speaker with a flashlight...very unique design!) and so this allows the voice coil of the Side speaker to emit Highs from it's back side.

 

And perhaps equally important as it's sound; the new SS3 v.3 is affordable and fits in any car...or on any stage.

 

I think we hit the target. The SS3 is without a doubt, the most significant product I have ever released because it fixes a huge problem; realizing a stereo image in a live venue. But also, it is (by far) the most successful single product launch of my 40+ year career...probably because it is affordable!. But frankly spoken, and to be totally honest, much of this success due to the great folks, our CPS family, posting on this thread who have been vocal ("postal"?) in their support, for which I am humbled, grateful and honored. THANK YOU!

 

[Worth]

Hi folks I just wanted to update everybody on my progress in trying to achieve a more fuller bass sound from my keyboard through the CPS centrepoint stereo amp.

 

I don't know why I resisted having a mixer in the chain of my set up for as long as I have. I have added a Behringer eurorackub802 mixer that I found in my storage trunk I knew I had kept for some years. I connected some stereo cables from out of my left and right out of the keyboard into the mixer and then another set of stereo cables from out of the mixer into the space station keyboard amp.

 

 

I have the settings on the amp all set at 12 o'clock and on the mixer I have the base knob at about 3 o'clock, mids at 1 o'clock and the treble at 5 o'clock . It's very much closer to the sound I wanted to hear. I don't think I will need to buy an additional bass amp at this stage. However I don't play loud levels as for the most part I play for church services where there are maybe 400 to 500 people but they have come to listen and so I don't have to compete with background sounds of people talking and drinking and eating. There are also plenty of walls for the sound to bounce from and so it fills the auditorium at medium volume quite easily.

 

Thanks for all the help from everybody. I can't wait to play my new set up live at more loud volumes. My only concern is that I may blow the speaker but we will see . Thanks again everyone

 

[jmolino]

Hello,

 

I've decided that I'm selling most of my keyboards (besides my beloved B3 & Leslies) - which seem to be the only thing I'm playing at home (I don't play out anymore due to lifestyle changes...kids! )

 

My question is: I do sing (well...I attempt to sing while I play my B3... would I be better off selling the SSv3 and purchasing some powered stereo speakers for vocals instead? If so any recommendations (its a small room/loft with solid wood walls and ceiling).

 

Thanks for any input on this...

 

Best regards,

John

[16251]

Hello,

 

I've decided that I'm selling most of my keyboards (besides my beloved B3 & Leslies) - which seem to be the only thing I'm playing at home (I don't play out anymore due to lifestyle changes...kids! )

 

My question is: I do sing (well...I attempt to sing while I play my B3... would I be better off selling the SSv3 and purchasing some powered stereo speakers for vocals instead? If so any recommendations (its a small room/loft with solid wood walls and ceiling).

 

Thanks for any input on this...

 

Best regards,

John

A stereo reverb would probably sound great, but here's my question, would a person far away hear the vocals differently from the organ?

[jmolino]

A stereo reverb would probably sound great, but here's my question, would a person far away hear the vocals differently from the organ?

The Leslies are situated in the same area as the SS, and they are set to relatively even volume....also the leslie's are mic'd (for recording purposes, not for volume ...) and everything is running through my mixer (which has stereo reverb and other effects)....I'm just using the SS as the main L/R off the mixer.

 

So I don't think you'd hear one over the other....whether close or at a distance... On the organ I can hear both and I think my "audience" hears both just fine.

 

I'm guessing that in a house it probably would sound as good if not better than stereo speakers - plus I'd probably end up losing money selling it and buying new speakers. So I may as well just use what I have...unless I'm missing something completely.

 

My main concern was that the SS was really kind of designed to be a keyboard amp/monitor...and I'm using it more like a small PA. But others have reported that this has worked well..

 

[Synthaholic]

I have the settings on the amp all set at 12 o'clock and on the mixer I have the base knob at about 3 o'clock, mids at 1 o'clock and the treble at 5 o'clock . It's very much closer to the sound I wanted to hear.

 

I use the Eurorack MX802A mixer with my SS3 - did you mistype that? Treble at 5 o'clock? That's all the way up. The SS3 already has very good high end between the dedicated mid and high knobs.

 

I generally have the SS3 at 1 o'clock for the highs & mid and 9-10 o'clock for the width, then on the mixer 1/1/3 (treble/mid/bass) for keys, 1/12/2 for my vocals.

 

Why so much treble?

[Worth]

Hi synthaholic . No I didn't misspell the mixer . Here it is https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-UB802-Eurorack-Mixer/dp/B0002JF5CM

 

I play the korgpa1x arranger keyboard and you need the treble to hear the hi hats more clearly with the mix of drums , bass and guitars plus keys . I am still experimenting with the sound though . It's a lot trickier trying to get the sounds overall dialled in as well as for playing straight keys . How it sounds at home may be another matter once I set it up at church. I can't play at serious volume at home but will give real world feedback shortly . Your basic amp settings are different yo mine as mine are al set at 12 o'clock . But I will try your settings later this morning and see how I like the sound.

[Synthaholic]

Hi synthaholic . No I didn't misspell the mixer . Here it is https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-UB802-Eurorack-Mixer/dp/B0002JF5CM

 

I play the korgpa1x arranger keyboard and you need the treble to hear the hi hats more clearly with the mix of drums , bass and guitars plus keys . I am still experimenting with the sound though . It's a lot trickier trying to get the sounds overall dialled in as well as for playing straight keys . How it sounds at home may be another matter once I set it up at church. I can't play at serious volume at home but will give real world feedback shortly . Your basic amp settings are different yo mine as mine are al set at 12 o'clock . But I will try your settings later this morning and see how I like the sound.

 

http://i.imgur.com/4i6Ckte.gif I was asking if you mistyped 5 o'clock for the treble, not the mixer name.

 

I don't use an arranger keyboard but I do use my MIDI sequences live - one man band (I hate that term), so I also have drums and bass going through my mixer and the SS3. My hihats are dialed to 1 o'clock for the treble.

[MathOfInsects]

The other issue--if 7 o'clock is really all the way off on that mixer--is that each of those values (1, 3, and 5) are in "positive" territory. Worth, it might be worth bringing them each back three notches, so that the middle setting is 12 noon, and the two others work up and back from there. (In general, when crafting EQ, you want to "add by taking away" wherever possible. So if you want highs, pull back bass, and vice versa.)

[Worth]

This is very interesting synthaholic and mathofinsects . Mixing sounds is so subjective . My aim was to get more bottom end from the space station keyboard amp and I have achieved this . However in doing so I am struggling to balance the rest of the sounds I am used to hearing . I am so relieved to have achieved one aspect of the desired sound that I am not sure I can trust my ears for the rest . I need to borrow other musicians ears !!

 

Just so I am clear . Are you suggesting that I leave the basic settings in the amp at 12 o'clock (mids and hi) , but on the mixer set the mids to. 12 o'clock and turn down the hi from 5 o'clock to 2 o'clock and turn down the bass from 3 o'clock to 12 o'clock ? Is that what you would suggest as the starting position and then if it still lacked bass ,add more ? Or would you reduce the hi 's and mids further still ?

 

This is great information by the way and much appreciated .