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#2813401 - 11/03/16 06:29 PM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: Paul K]
lug Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 2265
Loc: League City,TX,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: Paul K
you can't practice your way out of in the basement.


WHAT?!?!?!?!?!
.......crap. frown
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#2813605 - 11/04/16 04:36 PM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: jeremy c]
Paul K Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 3609
Loc: Ithaca, NY
Originally Posted By: jeremy c
My degree in music came from a traditional classical music department. (UC Berkeley). I did not study bass there. I actually was a clarinet major.


I knew you played clarinet, but didn't know you were in that deep.
Pic's. Please! Post just one pic of the clarinet era!
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#2813882 - 11/06/16 05:42 AM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: Paul K]
Paul K Offline
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Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 3609
Loc: Ithaca, NY
Another clarinet story...
Wife and I saw a friend's band last night at a local bar; they play originals and covers from the 70's with groovy 3 and 4 part harmonies. (Yes, most of the originals are also from the 70's)..The keyboard player's father showed up with his clarinet and he totally slayed it. He's 90 years old.

So maybe I need to rethink this clarinet thing. Certainly, it's an easier ax to bring to gigs when you're 90.
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#2813944 - 11/06/16 10:54 AM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: Paul K]
Paul K Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 3609
Loc: Ithaca, NY
_________________________
Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse.
www.home.roadrunner.com/~kempkes/fundus.html

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#2813984 - 11/06/16 02:01 PM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: Paul K]
jcadmus Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 4920
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: Paul K
Another clarinet story...
Certainly, it's an easier ax to bring to gigs when you're 90.

Every time I'm loading out my gear after a gig or church service -- basses, rack case, cabs, gig bag, etc. -- I'm thinking, "You know, I could have played taken up harmonica instead..."
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#2815272 - 11/12/16 10:49 PM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: Paul K]
Jeff Berlin Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/08/15
Posts: 53
Paul K answering my thought that sometimes bass players should not gig until they are better prepared to do so, said, "Ack! No way. The cat wasn't playing Carnegie Hall. It's way more important to get out of the house. Play good, play bad, but play. Certain things happen in the heat of the moment that you can't practice your way out of in the basement. And yes, we all sound FABULOUS in the basement. So this cat's gig is one aspect of practice. Break some eggs. It's not like anybody got hurt or anything."

Jeff responded: I've taken notice that players that still are learning how to play try to make their own records, play gigs, and comment about music. My thoughts stating that sometimes it is better to not aim toward earning money or making a musical statement might be a good thing because the only thing seemingly left to do is to learn better how to play.


Edited by Jeff Berlin (11/12/16 10:50 PM)

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#2816372 - 11/20/16 07:52 AM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: Jeff Berlin]
jeremy c Offline
10k Club

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 16419
Loc: Berkeley,CA,UNITED STATES
I don't have any pictures from the clarinet era, but I do have pictures of me in my first rock band in which I played the saxophone and sang. These pictures were taken in 1966.


(the picture under my name was taken in 1971. a few things happened in those five years)
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#2816509 - 11/20/16 10:35 PM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: jeremy c]
J. Dan Offline
10k Club

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 10569
Loc: St. Louis, MO
As a multi-instrumentalist, it amuses me as to the sort of "magic' that Bass players assign to the idea of "groove".

I would bet if we had a poll, we'd get 20 different definitions of "Groove". What is "Groove"? If you can't define it, then of course it's going to be elusive. Jeff is of course as always spot on, but I think where there's disagreement it's in differences in "what is groove?".

If I have to rank my instruments in order of ability, I'd say Keys, Bass, Sax, Guitar. I have firm musical foundation for all, and tend to be better or worse on various instruments based on how much time I spend with them (again, I think following what Jeff tends to say - practice is the key once you get the theory). So that's just where I'm coming from.

I used to have timing/tempo issues even on keys. It's a very different thing to play by yourself or play to a metronome, vs playing with 5 different human beings each with their own clock. That's where "Feel" comes in...what is "feel"? Feel is hearing everything and finding the beat. This gets more complicated if there is swing or anything that isn't a "Straight beat". But it's still not magic, or groove. It's ear. It's hearing and adjusting. It may FEEL like something different, but that's what you're doing.

Again to Jeff's point...if you are very fluent in your instrument and music theory, you aren't focusing on just trying to play. That leaves you free to listen and adjust. Groove, I guess.

I've heard many drummers complain about very well recognized bassists about not having the right feel with them - they push or pull the beat, etc. As if there is some magical combination of drummer and bass player that results in the "groove". I'm a hack. I can play bass, but not like you guys. Yet I've never had a single drummer complain. Why? Because I listen and follow. I "Feel" them by LISTENING. Sometimes I actually WATCH. I moderate my fingering to make sure the notes sound on the kick for instance - I'm sure you all do that. I try to make the kick be the attack of the bass. Is that "groove"? I think not, it's just listening and playing. I think the guys who "Don't have groove" are just playing to their internal clock instead of listening. A band is a band. When I'm playing keys, guitar, or sax, it's no different. You wouldn't call it "groove", but the timing issues are all the same. I think the term "groove" makes it magical and by embracing it, takes focus away from the core contributing principals.

Jeff?
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Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2816555 - 11/21/16 06:58 AM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: J. Dan]
jcadmus Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 4920
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
What is "Groove"?

It's the thing that makes the girls want to get out on the dance floor and shake it.

Defined. Next question.
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"Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky"

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#2816705 - 11/22/16 05:22 AM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: jcadmus]
lug Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 2265
Loc: League City,TX,UNITED STATES
Groove is the sweet combination of mojo, tones, feel, clicking, and zone......with a dash of oomph.
_________________________
You can stop now -jeremyc
STOP QUOTING EVERY THING I SAY!!! -Bass_god_offspring
lug, you should add that statement to you signature.-Tenstrum
I'm not sure any argument can top lug's. - Sweet Willie

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#2816742 - 11/22/16 07:52 AM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: lug]
jcadmus Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 4920
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: lug
Groove is the sweet combination of mojo, tones, feel, clicking, and zone......with a dash of oomph.

Isn't that what I just said? Potato, tomato.
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"Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky"

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#2816788 - 11/22/16 11:22 AM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: jcadmus]
jeremy c Offline
10k Club

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 16419
Loc: Berkeley,CA,UNITED STATES
Groove is when you look at the drummer and the drummer looks at you and you are both smiling.
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#2816856 - 11/22/16 04:48 PM Re: Groove is Not the First Important Element of Playing! [Re: jeremy c]
Paul K Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 05/16/06
Posts: 3609
Loc: Ithaca, NY
Hey J.C.! Great pic's!
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Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse.
www.home.roadrunner.com/~kempkes/fundus.html

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